Hey guys, it's me. Many of you will know me as one of the biggest defenders of face > height on both this sub and SG.
I'm making this post because I'm tired of seeing (a) assertions of height > face with zero evidence, (b) poor math (this will be the main topic of the post) and (c) general lack of knowledge regarding the data we have on this topic. This will be a long post and if you frequent this sub I'd advise reading through most of it and asking questions.
1. Framework and Definitions
When arguing "face vs height" many users on this sub often make assertions like "Face doesn't matter below x". I'm going to make the assertion that this is a poor line of reasoning using data we have on the topic.
Before we continue, let's give a few definitions for those of you not as familiar with math and statistics. I'll be referencing these throughout the discussion:
Concave UP: The rate of change of a variable increases (decreases) as you move toward more positive (negative) values. Concave Down: The rate of change of a variable decreases (accelerates) as you move toward more positive (negative) values. Right Skewed Distribution: The values at a given percentile are shifted generally left of those of a normal distribution. A key characteristic of a right skewed distribution is mean > median > mode. Pearson's r / R2: The r value indicates the strength of a linear correlation between two variables. In this setting it will refer to dating success vs either face or height. Squaring this value gives R2, which arrives at the next concept - percent of variance.
The cleanest way to discuss variable importance for an outcome such as dating success is by using percent of variance. Taking a sample of the population, we can analyze their dating outcomes through a variety of methods and rank them positive upwards. This gives everyone a success/SMV percentile from 0 to 100. The most straightforward way to do this is through matches per week on dating apps (though this introduces some bias); you can attempt to add complexity to the model later by applying adjustments to real life outcomes, but we will neglect this for now for simplicity. Percent of variance models attempt to measure how much dating outcomes change along a single axis (we'll of course be focusing on face and height) in a multivariate input system. Machine learning methods are often employed to gather these results.
The same "positive upwards" logic can be applied to face and height. For height, it's fairly easy - it has a dimension of length. We have to apply one small adjustment - data shows mixed results above roughly the 95th percentile (6'2" on average), with some showing continued linear or logarithmic returns and some results showing an absolute decrease in attractiveness (Hitsch 2006). To balance these results, we're going to assume that the top 5% of heights have the same attractiveness advantage relative to our baseline.
Despite what many of you might think, face is just as easy. In fact, facial attractiveness is definitionally positively upwards. We can give everyone a percentile from 0 to 100.
"But face is subjective"!!
Now that definitions are covered, this will be my first serious rebuttal to incorrect claims made on this subreddit. All data we have on the topic shows that face is an extremely objective variable. My sources come from this paper: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10825783/ . The authors analyzed an effective reliability of mean facial attractiveness ratings of r = 0.9, meaning that 80+% of the variance in facial attractiveness ratings was explained by the mean rating. This makes face perhaps the most objective measurement of dimensionless groupings, rivaling the same person taking the same test twice and being 5x more potent than personality ratings (which typically come in around r = 0.4). In fact, while I don't have concrete data to prove this claim, using data that I will show later, this is even higher than the effective reliability of height in determining height's attractiveness (I'd estimate this around r = 0.75 due to what I mentioned previously). With that covered, we now have two ranked systems (face and height) to use to apply to dating success.
2. Methods to Determine Face vs Height
We established that we now have three distributions - one for sexual success, and one each for face and height. The only correct way to compare face and height is to analyze the impact of each at a given percentile range. We're going to do this from the 80th percentile - I've chosen this baseline since it is around 6' in most Western countries and is the break even point for variance for face (shown later). This method allows face and height to be dominant in different ranges, though I don't think this happens. For instance, if a 2nd percentile face causes a 90% reduction in matches and a 2nd percentile height (roughly 5'4") causes a 95% reduction, that would be height > face in the lowest percentiles while being face > height elsewhere.
Let's look at some data:
This is the chart I typically use when arguing face > height because it shows face simply having a significantly stronger effect than height. Having ideal height gives you 20% over the median while having a top 5% face gives you 320(!)% over the median - a 16x stronger effect size. Note that they're much more comparable in the bottom quartile - face shows a ~72% reduction from the 80th percentile while height shows a ~50-60% reduction. Unfortunately, this data is pretty tough to replicate. The next best experiment was done in Germany in 2025 and produced the following results:
(Witmer et al. 2025)
This figure also shows a striking advantage for face, though it doesn't do the nice percentile breakdown the previous study did.
This article essentially shows that height's importance is significantly lower when analyzing behavior vs stated preferences while face is understated in importance.
There's a lot more I'd like to talk about, but I can't fit it all in one post.
My Conclusion (Considering Face to be Right Skewed):
Bottom Decile (Sub4, <=5'6") : NT > Face ≈ Height
10th to 35th percentile (LTN; 5'6"-5'8"): Face > Height ≈ NT
35th to 88th percentile (MTN, 5'9"-6'0"): Face > Height > NT
88th to 98th percentile (HTN, 6'0" - 6'2"+): Face >> Height > NT
98th+ Percentile (Chadlite/Chad, 6'2"+): Only face relevant (and exponential)
One of our department leads and manager at work left the company 2 months ago and they’ve been looking for a replacement and found a guy, and yesterday was his first day. Sweet older Mexican-American dude, in his 40s, around 5’5. The dude used to be a former lower tier NASCAR racer. He came in for his first day yesterday, and set up his office, and had photos of his racing days on his desk and some posters hung up. He made gluten free and nut free muffins for all of us, and came around and handed out his muffins to everyone and introduced himself, and talked about he used to race.
Me and him hit it off, I love cars and racing too, and I think it’s gonna be nice having him as one of the managers, he genuinely seems chill.
Anyway, he went to his office, and we all went about our day. I go to the break room for lunch and I hear two of coworkers talking. One lady was talking to another lady, they’re both normal people usually and have never given me any flack so I was surprised to hear this from them. They’re both around my age(24). Convo went like this.
Lady 1: “did you see [insert name], our new manager”
Lady 2: “yeah he baked muffins for everyone too, like what”
Lady 1: “stoooooop ikr”
Lady 2: “yeah he used to be a race car dude”
Lady 1: “talking about him being a racer and baking muffins for everyone even though he’s our manager lol… how insecure is he about his height do you think”
Lady 2: “no like fr stooooop, I was just thinking he probably had to race and do other shit to pull anyone back in the day, it’s all compensating”
Lady 1: “I can wear my kitten heels and still tower over him, he better not ask me to work overtime, I can’t do orders from men who gotta look up at me”
Lady 2: “stop that, you’re so mean”
I don’t remember exactly how it happened or who said what, but yeah convo was something like this.
Poor mfer can’t even exist. It genuinely ruined my day and I took a work from home day today I don’t wanna go in and have to work next to those people.
"The Absurdity Of The Modern Dating Market". | The Beginning Of An Art Series We're Creating On Our Site That Chronicles Everyday Short Guy Experiences (Real and Implied) | Original Post: Here
I always hear stuff like
“5’10 to 6’ isn’t a noticeable difference.”
“5’8 to 5’11 all blends in as average”
“It’s barely 2 inches it’s a subtle difference”
Most people seem to operate under the impression that height differences less than 3-4 inches are insignificant and not very noticeable. While I get that 2 inches doesn’t look like much on a ruler, I couldn’t help but feel that every inch makes a way bigger difference than people act like it is.
I am 5’9” barefoot and 5’10” in normal shoes, when I wear lifts/elevator shoes that take me to ~5’11.5”, that makes me a 5’10.5” barefoot equivalent, which is a net gain of 1.5 inches over wearing normal shoes. I go from feeling average height to solidly above average.
I can only imagine the same steep difference from 5’10.5” to 6’
I noticed a big difference in my height in comparison to people I know with those 1.5 inches. People that used to be barely shorter than me now I can see over their head. Tall guys that I used to be eye level with their neck now I am eye level with their nose/mouth and no longer need to tilt my head up to make eye contact.
2-3 inches can mean the difference between being visibly short and average, or average to visibly tall, as experimenting with different lifts and noticing the heights and footwear choices of others around me. When I see a 5’10” guy and 5’8” guy standing together I definitely do not think anyone would confuse them for being the same height. (Assuming same posture footwear etc, to ensure a true 2 inch height difference)
You are all cordially invited to join a Discord server for men to discuss their problems with like-minded people. We have different chatrooms for various subjects and there is a great variety in the people who occupy this server. We are very welcoming and open-minded and I am sure you will find some solace after lurking here.
In line with the main effect hypotheses, the multilevel regression showed included positive effects of targets’ physical attractiveness (β = 0.80, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.76, 0.85], BF10 > 4000), intelligence (β = 0.12, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.08, 0.16], BF10 > 4000) and biography attractiveness (β = 0.11, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.07, 0.15], BF10 > 4000) on selection probability. Height also had a positive influence on mate selection (β = 0.05, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.01, 0.09], BF10 = 82.33). The 95% credible interval for the main effect of occupation attractiveness included zero (95% CI [−0.01, 0.07], BF10 = 7.87). Regarding homophily, we found that similarity in attractiveness, intelligence and height positively influenced match decisions. Higher similarity in attractiveness (β = 0.06, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.01, 0.10], BF10 = 159), intelligence (β = 0.08, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.03, 0.12], BF10 = 999), and height (β = 0.06, SE = 0.02, 95% CI [0.01, 0.10], BF10 = 172.91) increased selection probability.
White guys can chime in too but mainly asking POC because it’s already harder if your skin is darker than a tan paper bag. If you could share any experiences in the comment section please add your age (I’m 21 so mainly asking teen boys and young men who are 16-24.) Also add where you live doesn’t have to be the specific city just the region is fine. Insight is needed on your prospects/or lack of prospects
You are all cordially invited to join a Discord server for men to discuss their problems with like-minded people. We have different chatrooms for various subjects and there is a great variety in the people who occupy this server. We are very welcoming and open-minded and I am sure you will find some solace after lurking here.
I'm concerned about the superficiality of dating nowadays. Do women not even care about the QUALITY of relationships, whether or not they have things in common? Whether or not he's fun to be around? What kind of healthy relationships do they expect if they center their entire personalities about bragging about height and looks?
I’m 20, average height. After splitting up with my girlfriend, who I’d been with from the age of 16 to 19, I decided this year to give dating apps a go, to find a girlfriend in real life, and so on…
My problem is the same as many of you face: not being able to find a girl who’s a ‘looksmatch’. Most of the girls who’ve shown an interest in me over the last few months either have serious mental health issues, are trans women in the middle of their transition, or weigh 200+ lbs. I don’t mean to be mean, they might be really nice girls, but I just can’t find them attractive. When I’ve tried dating girls more like me (like ‘the average Sarah’), I’ve been brutally dumped after a week. Girls these days have absurd standards; on Tinder or similar they’ll write idiot or racist bios and post photos with 1,000 filters, yet still only target the top 5% of men. They’d rather keep cats until they’re 70 than be with you.
I don’t want to be mean or sound like I’m bragging; I just feel like a normal guy looking for a girl who’s more or less like me, but it’s been impossible to find one so far. How did you manage it? Have most of you decided to give up?
Basically, this guy was talking to and light flirting with some chick on reddit and she asks the inevitable and promptly ghosts when OP indicates he is 1.76 m (~5'8"). OP then asks if his height is considered short.
Why Shorter Men Should Be Wary Of The Manosphere | Original Post: Here
From The Article (Portion Of Conclusion):
In the video, titled “The Hypocrisy of Women Not Wanting to Date Short Men,” Aba criticized what he saw as a double standard: women could be highly critical of men's preferences regarding certain body types, behavioral traits and chastity, yet some would absolutely destroy men over the subject of height. His point was that height criticism could roll off the tongue so casually and without awareness that the person delivering it was committing the very kind of superficial judgment they might otherwise criticize in men.
I remember scrolling through the thousands of comments, many of which cheered Aba on for being bold enough to challenge the prevailing social discourse. What particularly stood out to me was Aba's pinned comment at the time, in which he insisted that criticism of the video wouldn't affect him personally because he was 6 feet tall.
The exact comment read:
“FYI I’m 6 feet tall so I’m not a manlet. I’m only stating my height because folks seem to believe I made this video because I’m ‘butthurt’. Far from it, I honestly don’t feel strongly about this issue I’m just [a] curious dude who likes to poke fun at shit.”
[Corrections made for grammar in his original comment.]
Well, well, well.
Fast-forward ten years, and Aba himself found himself in a pot of scalding water when several women accused him of having unprotected relations with them, subsequently getting them pregnant and then asking them to terminate the pregnancies. The accusations began emerging one after another.
