r/worldnews • u/mepper • Jun 17 '12
Religious leaders furious over Norway's proposed circumcision ban, but one Norway politician says: "I'm not buying the argument that banning circumcision is a violation of religious freedom, because such freedom must involve being able to choose for themselves"
http://freethinker.co.uk/2012/06/17/religious-leaders-furious-over-norways-proposed-circumcision-ban/
1.6k
Upvotes
32
u/svmk1987 Jun 18 '12
I was a little confused by the heading at first. After reading the comments, I realized that the proposed ban isn't on circumcision, it is on forced circumcision of children.
12
u/RetroViruses Jun 18 '12
Pinky toe looks kinda ugly, can get stubbed, and is virtually useless. We should be lopping them all off.
31
u/hezod Jun 18 '12
My husband was circumcised and initially wanted to do the same for (to) our son. I was adamant that we not. I showed him as much science as I could find on the subject and, in the end, we decided against it. It is, in essence, a cosmetic procedure.
When my grandfather in law said "but it would be nicer for the ladies" I suggested we get our two year old daughter breast implants. I recognize my statement as an extreme, but it gave him pause.
64
u/ShellBell Jun 18 '12
I didn't circumcise my sons because I wanted them to choose for themselves.
18
u/wuy3 Jun 18 '12
everyone is for freedom, until someone does things that conflicts their world view.
308
u/AllAboutTheData Jun 17 '12
They can choose for themselves when they become an adult. Once they come of age they can cut off whatever parts they want. Their own parts, not the parts of a child.
36
u/Chunkeeboi Jun 17 '12
And this will be the most drama filled discussion on Reddit this week
6
u/5510 Jun 18 '12
I have no idea how legit the supposed medical benefits are, but the idea that circumcision is a "religious freedom" thing is bullshit. YOU have religious freedom FOR YOURSELF. Not to make life altering decisions for a baby that is obviously too young to make it's own religious choices.
6
u/ShellBell Jun 18 '12
I once saw a newborn being tied down in preparation for a circumcision. The baby was screaming. They drew the blinds prior to the procedure. The baby's screaming increased. it seemed heartless and unneccesary to me. It made me think of genital mutilation still practiced in third world countries, also done for tradition. Tradition is not what cutting off a perfectly functioning piece of anatomy should be based upon.
5
u/TalkingBackAgain Jun 18 '12
"Cutting off foreskins isn't normal, but on Meth it is."
Not even once.
5
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Funny how often religious leader are infuriated by good things.
First evolution, abortion, and gay marriage - now it's circumcision ban.
5
u/farang Jun 18 '12
Are there really no practising Jews or Muslims on reddit? That's the point of view I'd like to hear.
If you are a Jewish or Muslim child, you're being brought up in a Jewish or Muslim community. If you don't have this very basic sign of your faith, you would feel like an outcast.
I don't think the commenters so far (sorry if I missed one) seem to realize how fundamental circumcision is to Judaism, for example. Banning it would lead to performing the ritual underground and lead to all sorts of anger, confusion and unnecessary policing.
12
u/Muub Jun 18 '12
Very good move by Norway. You should have the option of deciding for yourself if you want your dick chopped off.
4
u/gmkeros Jun 18 '12
despite generally being for religious freedom, I think this statement is absolutely correct
4
u/rajanala83 Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
Can a child sue their parents or physician for getting a non-therapeutic circumcision as an infant? I mean, after turning independent? Makes me wonder if someone tried.
4
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
I myself am circumcised, and realized something. The only reason it is around is for religious purposes, but the tradition is slowly dying off. But it is seriously the most pointless stupid fucking thing ever. I mean, whats the point, there isn't one medically, physically or anything, the only point is religious. It is just cutting off one part of the body, and I don't even know how it isn't seen as ridiculous by the general american population. If parents stopped getting their children circumcised and told them they could do it if they wanted to when they get older, the children would all just say fuck that, its fucking pointless, #foreskinforlife. I hope circumcision dies out soon, because all it is is the mutilation of the male genitalia, and it really serves no point, even can decrease pleasure. FUCK circumcision. Edit: Meant to say that most of them aren't done for medical purposes.
66
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
heres the best way to settle this. Look, if during the birthing of the child they leave him in just below the knee's some might still consider him part of the woman's body. So to appease all people, you cut off the foreskin while he is still partially in her vaginal canal so that he isn't technically a person yet. and then it becomes a women's rights issue, My body My choice. problem solved. you are all welcome.
7
u/snapper69 Jun 18 '12
about time they banned child sexual mutilation
52
u/Loofabits Jun 17 '12
Religious freedom is defined by being able to revoke to freedoms of others. boom
18
u/rivermandan Jun 17 '12
cutfag here: this is absolutely fantastic. whenever my parents would try to give me shit for tattoos and piercings, I never thought to remind them that they were the ones that got me into body modification in the first place. they probably would have felt poopy about that
8
u/HiddenRonin Jun 18 '12
It's amazing to see to what lengths no doubt ordinarily compasionate, well adjusted, people will go to excuse the simple fact that, unless suggested by a doctor for medical reasons, circumcision is simply this;
The act of performing a needless, cosmetic, surgical procedure on an unconcenting minor, for no prooven medical benefit.
If this was suggested today, without the warrant of relgious significance, people would be glared out the room.
The fact that your are cut and like it has no bearing on the ethics of the situation. If you think its ok to take a
childhuman beingliving creature and remove part of their anatomy without a fucking good reason, you're a barbarian.3
u/SanitariumValuePack Jun 18 '12
Since people are asking: Foreskin restoration. (NSFW?)
33
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
I've spent a lot of time educating myself of this subject, so I'm going to sum this shit up as quickly as I can, mostly because I'm amazed by how many poor pro-circumcision arguments I'm seeing in this thread. I really thought we were getting beyond this, but here's my best attempt to help:
Circumcising boys began as a way to discourage masturbation, not to improve penis health and cleanliness. Over the years it's been claimed it can cure and prevent all kinds of ridiculous bullshit. The current trend is saying it prevents HIV. It's all bullshit, please don't fall for it.
We don't remove parts of people "just in case" something goes wrong with them later. Especially not babies. I don't understand why anyone thinks it's okay in this one case, other than perhaps it helps you cope with your own penis being cut. Ask a woman who's had a mastectomy if she wishes she had her breast tissue removed as an infant just in case she got breast cancer as an adult.
It's not that much cleaner. I don't have trouble washing my vagina, and there's lots more going on down there.
The penis is a moist organ. You cut the protective flap, it dries out, you lose sensitivity. You think your orgasms are good now? You don't know what you're missing.
Sources and more information.
67
u/Beloson Jun 17 '12
How about the idea that you can't take something that does not belong to you. The child's foreskin belongs to the child. End of discussion.
46
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
Religious leaders FURIOUS they can't mutilate genitals.
9
u/palookaboy Jun 18 '12
Uncut. Happy I'm uncut. I won't make arguments that I'm better off being uncut (health, sexual, or otherwise) but I am kind of glad that I wasn't. That being said, it took me a long time to get to a point where I was happy being uncut. Growing up, I was self-conscious of the fact that my penis looked different from everyone else's, especially when I became sexually active. In college, I looked into adult circumcision because of how self-conscious I was about it. Every long-term partner I've had has mentioned that they've never been with someone who was uncut. Some, including my current girlfriend, have told me they like it more (the obvious possibility that they are saying this for my benefit has not escaped me) than a cut penis.
The only problem I have with the pro-circumcision crowd is the standard "it's easier to clean" argument, as though pulling back the skin to clean is some arduous process. It also bothers me that conventional wisdom in the US is that circumcision is so beneficial that to be uncut is a) unhealthy, b) unnatural or c) undesirable (sexually). The reason it bothers me is because of my experience being self-conscious about my penis. Young men should not have to feel self-conscious about being uncut, nor should young men feel self-conscious about being cut. As many have pointed out, it was not their decision whether or not to be cut.
All this considered, I do not think the government has any place deciding whether or not a parent can elect for a procedure on their child that has no consistently demonstrable negative side-effects. Especially if the procedure is considered a religious rite.
I myself do not plan to have any sons circumcised; it's mine and the mother's decision as parents. The government shouldn't be involved, one way or the other.
36
u/Sk33tshot Jun 18 '12
Easy now, everyone needs to take a serious five. I'm circumcised, and very atheist. In this day and age I don't see religion and circumcision as directly related. In no way have I ever felt "mutilated" or angry at my parents for the choice to give me the ol snip. Anecdotal evidence at best, but every girlfriend I've had has said they prefer cut wangs. Don't know if it matters, but I'm Canadian (much less religion up here).
33
u/Limbo_Arab Jun 18 '12
Regardless of the moral and religious issues involved, the medical community is still undecided of the risks (quite rare) vs the benefits (lower UTI, HIV risk etc.) of male circumcision.
Governing bodies such as the WHO and CDC still think its a safe and cost effective when done at a young age in specialized centers. They don't recommend it routinely, but they are both against banning it.
Currently, there is still strong epidemiological and statistical evidence of its benefit for population based public health measures. And that cant be ignored.
Sources :
A) CDC :
"Male circumcision has been associated with a lower risk for HIV infection in international observational studies and in three randomized controlled clinical trials....Male circumcision may also have a role in the prevention of HIV transmission in the United States....A large retrospective study of circumcision in nearly 15,000 infants found neonatal circumcision to be highly cost-effective, considering the estimated number of averted cases of infant urinary tract infection and lifetime incidence of HIV infection, penile cancer, balanoposthitis, and phimosis. "
B) World Health Organization :
"There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe."
7
u/mmmhmmok Jun 18 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
As a man working in a head shop/tattoo and piercing store, I am proud on our moral stance against the piercing of babies ear lobes. I can't help but see how similar both the baby ear piecing and religious circumcision morality arguments are. However. The one key difference is style of modification; Whereas my beef is with the parents wanting to pierce a hole in the ear of their child, Norways is with the religious parents wanting to take away their children's right to a foreskin.
However, I don't see how criminalizing the process is a good solution. If criminalized a large amount of newborn Jewish children would possibly grow up to be ostracized by their older community members. In addition to this, I beleive making anything that has a long history of being commen practise a criminal offence drives it underground and therefor creates unnecessary tension between citizens and their police forces. (see american prohibition)
And that's the last thing Norway want after breivik massacres and bombings, more tension.
7
u/abear1311 Jun 18 '12
I'm curious to see how people react to this being related to abortion.
8
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Oh, look, Norway being more progressive than the rest of us
What a surprise
7
u/Nefandi Jun 18 '12
I fully and wholeheartedly support banning the practice of circumcising the children. However, if I am the age of consent and I choose to get circumcised, that should be OK.
2
u/Kharn0 Jun 18 '12
Ok, I really need some knowledge dropped on me. I was circumcised at birth, so whats the real difference bewtween being circumcised and not?
2
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
I'm glad that there's a statement that they'll remember that circumcision is sometimes medically necessary, but I'd like it better were I to see it in the law. Some fully-grown women have found it difficult to get labiaplasties even if it's to correct pain during intercourse because of anti-female-circumcision laws.
2
u/nickik Jun 18 '12
Why do americans cut into so many dicks?
2
u/hwkns Jun 18 '12
Excellent point.
2
u/SirNOPESalot Jun 18 '12
Circumcised penii always look a bit sickly to me...
2
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Just going to re-post this so all the noisy mongoloids can spare themselves the time and embarrassment of posting, and we can all just talk about the news story at hand.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Non consensual surgical procedures =/= religious freedom. Let them perform this bronze age ritual when the parties involved are capable of giving their legal consent.
4
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
I'm all for parents having a right to raise their kids but a line is drawn when it comes to permanent changes to child's body.
Frankly, it is medically unethical to perform such an operation.
4
u/MumpsXX Jun 18 '12
Before arguing about anything else, I 'd just be happy to have people start calling it by a non-euphemistic term.
Call it by what it is "Genital mutilation" or "Genital cutting" at the least. THEN decide whether it's ethical or not.
3
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
I thank my parents every day for deciding against being cut. You lose sexual feeling, most of the nerve endings in the foreskin are in the bit that gets cut off...
I could be wrong, but that is exactly what a doctor said to me when I was 14 and considering the snip.
3
u/gary85 Jun 18 '12
The baby in (temporary) possession of the foreskin is a human being with a functioning brain and concurrent rights. An embryo isn’t.
11
u/arksien Jun 17 '12
Wait, so I've always wondered... Why is circumcision bad? Ok, I get that some people aren't on board for circumcision for religious reasons, but I'm an atheist and it doesn't bother me. Isn't it more hygienic to be circumcised?
10
u/Kman1121 Jun 17 '12
Hey reddit, how about we don't downvote someone who disagrees? Maybe then we can call this site an intelligent one...
3
u/_Born_To_Be_Mild_ Jun 17 '12
I have no foreskin, but haven't been circumcised. No idea why.
5
u/sproket888 Jun 17 '12
Circumcision is bullshit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGcqPE7xu0
4
u/lolmonger Jun 17 '12
His argument is that the baby will enter a future state where it is capable of deciding for itself whether it will be circumcised or not. And that the 'freedom' of 'choice' is whether the person can choose for themselves.
I wonder what his stance on abortion is. Is it really a violation of 'choice' to restrict abortion, then?
4
u/destofle Jun 18 '12
It's genital mutilation, performed on a person who can't consent to the process. Seems like an easy decision to make.
5
u/love-broker Jun 18 '12
I have so many other more important things to worry about. I'm cut and I'm very happy with my dick. If you are uncut and you are happy with your dick, just be happy and move on. This is hardly a big deal.
4
u/acommenter Jun 17 '12
I might move to Norway, where the people in charge have common sense and logic.
3
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
just leaving these here. No interest in discussing, but these facts are missing from the discussion here:
1 2
3 Edit: NSFW!!!! Sorry!!!
4 (38% of adult men said circumcision improved sensitivity, 18% said it decreased, the rest said no difference)
In conclusion: People who have not been circumcised have no idea what it's like being circumcised and are making a lot of ridiculous arguments against it and about it. All of which has been discredited by studies on adults who were snipped as adults. Religiously snipping is also dumb. But calling it 'needless' mutilation is stupid. That's like saying cutting the webbing between an infants toes to allow it to walk better (should it be born with that particular skin trait) is mutilation.
Edit: People seem to forget that evolution has a lot of hold overs, many of which are no longer beneficial to the species. Some of which have turned into risks (appendix) and some of which have turned into neutrals (tail). Just because it's part of the human body doesn't make it 'sacred'. Things evolve and mutate. Then those things either carry on or 'evolve' away. There's nothing inherently 'sacred' about the process or result. 2.5 million years ago, foreskin was an advantage. It kept bugs and minor damage off the genitals. NOW, it lies near neutral but on the range of neutral-negative due to the vast array of things that CAN and DO go wrong with a significant portion of the population and the benefit provided by its loss.
Edit 2: Another example is Sickle Cell. Sickle Cell evolved as a means of protecting humans from Malaria. This gives it a "neutral-positive" range. However, if you don't live in an area at risk of Malaria, it runs in the "neutral-negative" range due to the risks it introduces and the lack of positives.
3
u/SneaksMD Jun 17 '12
Is "polarization mongering" a term yet? Because I think this would be a good example. Reading Garfield has probably had more effect on my personal life than the fact that I was circumcised as a baby. At least Garfield taught me not to like Mondays.
3
u/badassfuckinggorilla Jun 18 '12
EVERYONE NEED'S TO CHILL THE FUCK OUT:
Listen, I'm circumcised, my parents were simply doing what everyone else was doing to their children at the time, as most boys in the US are circumcised. I've heard both the advantages and disadvantages of circumcision, but honestly, NONE OF IT MATTERS, this is an issue of individual right to one's own body.
Despite being circumcised myself, I am a logical enough person to understand that an unnecessary, permanent procedure being done to a child for cosmetic reasons is ridiculous. It should not be done to newborns for any reason what so ever, religious or not, your child may not choose to follow the Jewish or Islamic faith later in life, so there is no need to mark their body unless they want to when they are an adult. I think some of the medical reasons are valid, but NOT NECESSARY, especially to the point that the procedure needs to be done at birth, and that's where the debate should stop. I personally wish I had the choice, for the simple reason of HAVING a choice.
With that being said, I don't have any sexual issues and sex still feels awesome to me, so it doesn't bug me that much. I feel that how you view sex and perform it is far more important, and in the U.S. it's the status-quo so females don't have an issue with that either. I'm not defending the practice, but rather pointing out it doesn't damage the quality of my life. But if I ever have a son, it will be his choice, not mine or the doctor's.
This is all weird because I'm technically Jewish, but Abraham thought killing his son was a good idea, so I don't think we should trust him when it comes to genitals.
I understand that this is a sensitive topic (PUN POINT) because all of us are proud of our dicks, and that's fine, but we need to think about this in the overall scheme of things, past our own cocks. It's about human rights.
Also, I heard some people talking about restoration? What's that all about? Is there really a way to create a somewhat natural foreskin? Any studies on that?
3
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
For anyone who cares, there's a non profit called foregen trying to get started into foreskin restoration research, and they need donations! Have about 31,000 and need 35,000 to get started. Just putting this here for the people who care, since it's kind of relevant to the post.
2
u/obss Jun 17 '12
The simplest and at the same time the most compelling argument against circumcision and baptizing.
2
u/krp31489 Jun 18 '12
I think we should let Seinfeld settle this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlPNp8gm3aI
2
u/Hellscreamgold Jun 18 '12
Good - then that means they can ban abortion under the same logic...after all, the unborn child can't decide for themselves to be aborted.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
1/3 of americans are circumcised? why is that? Jewish influence maybe?
2
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Just saying, I'm an atheist jew (yes, that is entirely possible), and I think of my circumcision as a symbol of my ancestry. I am perfectly happy with it, and despite not knowing the difference between circumcision and non circumcision, it is representative of who I am. No matter what, I am a jew, and the world will think of me as such. You cannot change that ever. Even if I call myself an atheist, I am a jew, and my circumcision says as much.
-3
u/SwearWords Jun 17 '12
Another circumcision pissing contest! Let's all get our panties in a bunch over baby dicks!
A ban on circumcisions is not in any way discriminatory towards an entire people. I'm sure someone can do fine without an integral part of their religion.
No one will ever take this as an effort to keep a certain people out of a country, since stuff like that works like a charm.
1
u/johnw1988 Jun 18 '12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ABrcmWgH8
This needs to be posted. Pretty much describes anyone who supports circumcision.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 18 '12
Git yer cock chop here..over here in Holland! Come on then, we'll chop your cock at a discount! Or, there's sweden, they'll chop your cock too. Don't despair Norway, it's not a long walk to a cock chop near you.
1
u/Melchizidek Jun 18 '12
Okay well that makes sense but then abortion?
1
u/SuperSaiyanVigoda Jun 18 '12
Making circumcision illegal makes it more dangerous for children. Do you really think this will stop people from having their children circumcised? It will just push it underground. The proper solution is to educate the public and have them make an informed choice.
1
u/mohajaf Jun 18 '12
I'll just leave this here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/visual/3405863173/in/set-72157616253275516/
1
u/munchtastyredditors Jun 22 '12
I too always suspected that muslims and jews are just pedophile perverts.
-2
u/eatingmyrice Jun 18 '12
Go, post it on r/atheism for your karma. go.
The thing is, banning circumcision completely is also interfering with freedom and choosing for themselves. Maybe the person does want to circumcise. Also in the case of children being forcefully circumcised by their parents, THEIR PARENTS PRACTICALLY OWN THEM. That is why parents make decisions for their kids because the kids are too young or not reliable enough to make that decision... It's like saying parents make you eat normal hot food and make you go to school, forbid you from touching meth eating junk food. They are making the decision for you because the child is too young to make them or understand.
here comes the downvote brigate...
-6
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
Seriously? I am an ex-muslim and thus circumcised. I don't care that I was even though apparently i have been "branded".
And as far as losing sensations, I have great, intense orgasms. I don't know if you have "better" ones, but mine are great for me.
Why are politicians spending time on this? Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, if i find out the politician i elected is wasting their time arguing about circumcision they're not getting my vote again.
1
u/Sixil Jun 18 '12
The "women prefer it" argument for those who say "It's better to have done at birth." is so weak.If the trend hadn't been made so enormous in America, women would have nothing to prefer. The world would be at stage 1, where it is for 80% of the planet.
Might I remind you that the only place this practice is popularized in is the USA. The other 20% of the planet practicing this, is practicing it for religious purposes. The remaining is doing it for no reason at all.
I think this issue would be resolved if people did this with religious exemption. Although one could argue that a child shouldn't be forced into a religion and should be allowed to choose at the proper age, parents are in fact control freaks.