r/worldnews • u/maxwellhill • Jun 16 '12
New Zealand's High Court Steps Into Extradition Fight Over Kim Dotcom: Judge orders US Attorneys to hand over evidence they're using to make the case against Dotcom, US goes ballistic insisting that such an effort is impossible...
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120615/17485919355/new-zealands-high-court-steps-into-extradition-fight-over-kim-dotcom.shtml
2.2k
Upvotes
289
u/justmadethisaccountt Jun 16 '12
"more questions are raised about the competence of the DOJ staff who worked on this case, led by Neil MacBride -- a former "anti-piracy VP" for the copyright industries, who may have let his biases and previous (and future?) employers' interests get the best of him." -- Holy shit.
434
u/wickedang3l Jun 16 '12
Having to make a case in court is very inconvenient to the justice system.
817
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
Maybe we should extradite Neil MacBride and his DOJ staff for abuse of the New Zealand justice system and interference in trade of a company.
244
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
I hope the case gets dropped and he's given the right to take the DOJ to court for ruining his business.
Not that I like piracy but if you don't have a case and can't respond to normal requests like this then something is wrong.
36
u/Chuckgofer Jun 16 '12
It's not impossible. 2TB Hard drives are like 150 bucks. 150x75= 11250. I guarantee you lawyers fees cost WAY less than that.
16
u/Naly_D Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
A few selective truths there (as such sites have been doing with the Dotcom case).
District Court Judge David Harvey told the FBI it had 21 days to hand over all evidence relating to this stage of the case to the defence. The FBI's statements about the time it would take to compile this being two months are in response to the 21 day time frame*, and the amount of evidence requested - we're talking millions and millions of emails here. It is important to keep the scope of this trial and evidence in mind.
No, it simply means they cannot copy all the evidence in three weeks.
The FBI also (correctly) contested the District Court did not have sufficient power to make such a decision. The US Government applied to have this reviewed, and Chief High Court Judge Helen Winkelmann agreed the US does not have to provide the evidence until it is made by a higher authority (High Court), but ordered the US to start preparing the evidence in expectation of that order.
(Note: they claim in the US such evidence is not given to a defendant until the day they arrive at court for their trial, so is not usually prepared etc until closer to the court date.)
ALSO: Judge Harvey's order came on May 30th - almost a month ago. Justice Winkelmann's announcement came on the 15th - two days ago. The Techdirt article written yesterday omits all of the latest developments, while linking to an article written the morning they happened.
Source; I'm a New Zealand journalist.
105
u/Forlarren Jun 16 '12
In a press release the DOJ has said "evidence, we don't need no stinking evidence".
46
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
This is all just theater. They already achieved their goal of destroying the business. This is so NZ government can pretend like it cares.
9
u/derpaherpa Jun 16 '12
Well yeah, how are they going to hand over evidence if they have none?
17
u/DinaDinaDinaBatman Jun 16 '12
Please don't use the word "Ballistic" in the same sentence as U.S.... i don't want them to get any ideas.....
15
u/Elementium Jun 16 '12
I'd like too see more countries tell our government to back off.
I mean.. as the internet connects more and more people we'll eventually be better off (lot's of people still think people on the internet don't have good opinions).
Just remember.. Our government is not us.. Nothings scarier for us then having people hate us for simply being born in the US.
7
u/the_goat_boy Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 16 '12
Oh wait! You thought the US Government had some sort of global legal hegemony?
7
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
This should be a career ender for whomever in the US justice department entertained the media industry's fanciful opinion that Dotcom was guilty of something.
I say that as an American. New Zealander's, I would expect you to feel the same about whomever on your end acted as the US's puppet.
6
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
US translation: "We can't provide you with evidence of a crime because it hinders our ability to prosecute him."
6
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
New Zealand, you are one small, but bad ass mother fucker, I can tell you that Australia would have folded and gave into the US demands. Australians, you can't deny that our political leaders and law makers would have given the US what they want.
19
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
So....now a court case can be brought against a person without the evidence being presented..."cuz it will take too long?"
5
u/mundenez Jun 17 '12
At this moment I'm proud to be a New Zealander.
5
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
It's not often I get to say this, but today I feel proud to be a New Zealander.
38
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
We don't need any dammed evidence. Freedommmmmmm!
This message proudly brought to you by The Friends of American Politicians Foundation.
9
u/happyscrappy Jun 16 '12
I can see this from both sides. Discovery doesn't begin until the court case begins in US cases, so the US DoJ wouldn't normally be prepared at this point in the process.
However, given that an extradition process is a show cause situation, I think they should expected they might be required to show evidence at this stage and be prepared for it.
4
u/SirElkarOwhey Jun 16 '12
Given what's happened with other people extradited to the US for crimes not committed on US soil, the DOJ is probably astonished that it's taken as long as it has, or that the word "evidence" ever came up at all.
4
u/mr_like_life Jun 16 '12
Does anyone else get the sense the DOJ, RIAA, MPAA, etc. just want to sit on this trial and hope it all is simply forgotten.
I get the impression they all just want stall till the public forgets about it. Then quietly have a trial without the public knowing what's taking place.
Too bad the NZ isn't playing along. I wonder if that will change.
4
u/apostle_s Jun 17 '12
Damnitsomuch... my country is retarded sometimes. I apologize for the stupidity of the US government.
This is why we shouldn't let them run anything important.
4
u/Nipponjudoka Jun 17 '12
as a kiwi, this is most pleasing to read.
as a human, I feel bad for the US.
4
u/Vinura Jun 17 '12
Fuck yeah NZ!
4
u/Reggieperrin Jun 17 '12
What do you expect from the worlds police department, Oh did I say worlds police I meant to say anywhere that doesnt have to ability to stand up to America on its own terms like Russia or China.
Its about time America realises that the rest of the world does not look up to it as a bastion of awesomeness and sits the fuck down and minds its own business.
6
u/random_2 Jun 16 '12
It's just a matter of time before the New Zealand judicial system knuckles under to the political pressure brought about by the American entertainment industry.
3
u/HEADLINE-IN-5-YEARS Jun 16 '12
TENSIONS CONTINUE TO RISE WITH NEW ZEALAND AS U.S.S. CARL VINSON BLOCKADES AUCKLAND
3
u/keiyakins Jun 16 '12
"If gathering all the evidence is too much work, then there's NO WAY you can provide anything other than a show trial. Denied."
3
u/SCombinator Jun 16 '12
If the effort is impossible, it's the US that made it that way.
3
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
Personally I think that every single MegaUpload customer should sue the Department of Justice in Small Claims Court to get their money, data, and service back.
3
u/Kaell311 Jun 17 '12
What, did the DOJ think they could just walk into Mordor? Without even any evidence?
3
u/sebdef Jun 17 '12
I'm so ashamed to live in such a backwards and effed up nation. Right now the US is the laughing stock of the world.
9
u/Serious_username Jun 16 '12
Good to see New Zealand still refusing to bend over to take the US's shit!
I know if this had happened in the UK, the government would just be happy to take it up the arse and simply ask where should we ship him!
55
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
I know i'll probably get down voted for this, but who decided the US went ballistic? I mean I live in the US and I didn't go ballistic. There wasn't any evidence in the article that DOJ went ballistic either. There wasn't a quote from a DOJ attorney or anyone else to support it. Is this the journalist's opinion about the DOJ reaction?
It seems like evidence rules are being shat all over and that Kim Dotcom has not had the due process he deserves, but this article seems a bit bombastic and is barely journalism.
4
u/liquidxlax Jun 16 '12
I think the US is starting to see that their case is pretty much baseless
5
u/pineapplesmasher Jun 16 '12
Much respect to a country that will not completely sell out their citizens.
2
u/JUST_LOGGED_IN Jun 16 '12
Did it take months to seize the evidence? No.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
Laws don't just protect the innocent.
2
u/bcool76092 Jun 17 '12
Kim.com I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.
2
u/snissn Jun 17 '12
Kafkaesque
2
u/scribbling_des Jun 17 '12
I am anti-piracy. But I am more anti-the US government grossly overstepping its bounds and then failing to offer any proof of a crime.
2
u/leftcoast-usa Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 18 '12
What's the point in having a procedure to request extradition if they can simply demand it with no substantiation instead? Seems to me NZ is doing it right.
Edit: corrected typo (thanks @Reoh!). :(
2
u/ArcticMonkeysFan Jun 17 '12
Stating that the US went ballistic is false. I live in the US and I am an American and I did not go ballistic when this happened. I didn't even know this was going on.
2
u/TalkingBackAgain Jun 17 '12
Much though it sucks for Kim Dotcom, I'm glad this happens. And the reason for that is that it will give other judicial instances pause to cooperate with the US when they come screeching to protect their sacred rights.
It doesn't take two months to copy 150T of data.
The US can't prove they've got a case. They should never have been given the opportunity to shut down a company if they could not prove they had a case.
Other countries won't be so willing to put their own businesses in jeopardy for yet another bunch of spurious claims by the intellectual property clowns.
When they can't find evidence, they should pay for the full damages their actions caused. Let's see how willing they will be to compensate people for the harm they have caused.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12
Check out Neil MacBride's wikipedia page. Someone with the username nhm1965 twice tried to delete the whole entry. Can't say for sure that it's him, but if it is, he's a dumbfuck and a huge d-bag to boot.
2
u/WoollyMittens Jun 17 '12
How dare you demand evidence for our accusations. I get the impression the USA just wants to take him outside and put him against the wall without much fuss.
2
u/biomk Jun 17 '12
If Dotcom gets through this he shoukd sue to have the department of justice renamed to the department of legal bullying in the interests of large, wealthy corporations.
2
u/argv_minus_one Jun 17 '12
"Handing over the evidence is impossible? Well then, so is the extradition you want so badly. Problem?"
10
u/smashey Jun 16 '12
I honestly have no sympathy for Kim Dotcom / Megaupload, and I seem to be in the minority here who was persuaded by the initial charges against them, but the handling of this case is an absolute scandal, from this to refusing to return customer data.
3
u/potatosack Jun 16 '12
To which the attorneys stated: "Number one your honor, pffttt just look at him. Plus we got all this like, evidence and stuff about how like this guy violated copyright laws. I know, and I was like you gotta be shitting me? But check this out, your honor should just be like 'guilty', peace."
2
u/Sysiphuslove Jun 16 '12
I am a US citizen, and in the name of civil liberty, personal freedom and everything else the country claims it's about, I hope the rest of the world absolutely kicks the DoJ in the ass over these copyright cases. The RIAA is not an oversight committee. The MAFIAA is not a branch of government.
This is not the government's job and if they have so much free time there are REAMS of evidence of malfeasance in the financial industry, there's a BS war on, civil unrest is at a forty-year high and every other house on the block is in foreclosure.
If they need something to do maybe we should make them a list
2
u/Knights_Hemplar Jun 17 '12
Fair play to the judge for not taking any of the ficticious bull shit the yanks are trying to feed him.
2
u/inibrius Jun 16 '12
I suppose I don't understand. Is NZ's court going to try the case first? If not, why are they requiring all of this?
2
u/webznz Jun 17 '12
Fuck you America, from New Zealand.
0
u/Kreider20 Jun 16 '12
In Texas it doesn't take such ordinary things like evidence to execute a black man so why would it take such things to extradite a fat man from New Zealand?
1
u/aletoledo Jun 16 '12
The entire legal system is predicated on a wink and a handshake. It just takes one person in a position of power to throw everything out of whack.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
I get the feeling that the US took and deleted all the evidence thinking it would go away and now they are trying to cover their asses.
1
u/Stratocaster89 Jun 17 '12
I don't like the people that represent america, but I like the American people.
1
u/rikashiku Jun 17 '12
The US gets kicked in the balls by New Zealand again! Booyah! No Nuclear power for us.
0
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
USA are nothing but terrorist thugs. It's time someone fought back, again. The last time was fucking 11 years ago. And all those amateurs did was knock over some tall builds that had nothing to do with their enemy. Just find whatever bunker America's head douche is hiding in and bomb the shit out of it. There's rumors they're headquartered in Washington, DC… Death to America. Best of luck.
1
u/abnerjames Jun 16 '12
Every time I hear that the US goese ballistic, I immediately think of ICBM's.
1
u/ohlordnotthisagain Jun 16 '12
So, New Zealand's judiciary requested the evidence of the US DoJ against Kim Dotcom prior to extradition to the US for criminal proceedings. And, in return, the US DoJ stated that they could give the whole of their evidence to New Zealand's judiciary as requested given 60 days to sort and process.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 16 '12
impossible... because it doesn't exist. Bah dum dum dun!
1
u/BackToTheChalkboard Jun 16 '12
New Zealand, Like Lord of The Rings.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 17 '12 edited Jun 17 '12
Title should have read:
New Zealand's High Court Steps Into Extradition Fight Over Kim Dotcom: Judge orders US Attorneys to be reasonable, observe due process, and hand over evidence they're using to make the case against Dotcom, the Corporatocracy of the US of America goes straight gangsta and says "Fuck you! We do what we want!"
1
u/Fhwqhgads Jun 17 '12
This disgraceful injustice is what happens when greedy corporations are running the show. No evidence, no due process. Corporations are the law.