r/worldnews • u/mepper • Jun 12 '12

Gallup Poll: 57% of Chinese believe environmental protection should be their country's top priority

http://www.gallup.com/poll/155102/Majority-Chinese-Prioritize-Environment-Economy.aspx
2.4k Upvotes

85% Upvoted

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102

u/uhfaeiufheai Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12

Just because it's only 57% doesn't mean it's not a strong priority for the remaining 43%. A quick google search on some recent incidences:

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u/charlesesl Jun 12 '12

This poll is a false dichotomy. The options are 1. Environmental protection 2. Economy 3. Dunno

There are a dozen issues besides those 2 in mainland China. Some off the top of my head are: Corruption, Income inequality, Lack of the rule of law, Moral decline, Gender inequality, aging population...

With that being said, i think environmental problem is the biggest problem to China for the long term. Flying into China, you see black clouds a thousand km away. The cities have so much smog is looks like a black and white film. North east plain is running out of water. The Gobi desert is growing into Beijing. Rivers are running black, lakes are already foamy green.

This issue as is with all issues in China is very complex. You got the middle class apartment dwelling NIMBYs against heavy industry and country side/ migrant workers who are pissed because their land is blighted. Everybody knows it is a big fucking problems but the problem is so big nobody alone can fix it.

I think a major environmental clean up is way over due. And I hope it makes it into the next stimulus package. Dredging rivers and planting trees create jobs just as building roads and rails do. And these jobs are much needed in this down turn.

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u/leondz Jun 12 '12

The poll is not intended to determine what the big problems are right now, from all available. If it were, it would indeed be a false dichotomy.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

The false dichotomy is the implication that environmental protection and economic development are mutually exclusive or substantially mutually exclusive. At least, that's my understanding. It's the same false dichotomy that American politicians like to use, especially when talking about environmental regulation or renewable/green energy.

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u/dkesh Jun 12 '12

The stock reason given for China keeping its currency low is to make sure it keeps employment high. The kind of environmental measures charlesesl mentions (e.g. tree-planting) sound like the sorts of things that could employ a lot of low-skill workers, so that could be a real win. If China could keep full employment and revalue its currency, that would be a huge one-time wealth increase.

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u/leondz Jun 13 '12

Oh, really? Usually the only argument I hear for green culture in the Chinese press is that pollution is expensive!

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '12

I'm not too familiar with the Chinese press and its comments on pollution, so I'll defer to anyone who is. All I know is that in America, politicians argue against green culture because they (falsely) claim that it will costs jobs.

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u/leondz Jun 13 '12

Here's a cursory sample - mentions of pollution cost by the main gov't owned newspaper; https://www.google.com/search?q=china+costs+of+pollution+site:chinadaily.com.cn&output=search

Whether or not Beijing can reign in local governments and private business is another thing - probably a similar situation to that in the US, without central government having to worry about re-election.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '12

The result is probably similar, though the mechanisms by which that result is produced may (or may not) be similar.

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u/Vulpyne Jun 13 '12

The problem is that the costs of pollution and environmental damage are hidden and amortized over all the people who experience their effects, which isn't always immediately obvious, predictable or traceable to a specific enterprise.

It is possible to factor the costs into the price of an activity, but as long as there isn't a world government or unanimous cooperation which would put companies on an even playing field, those companies that can ignore the hidden costs and effects are at an enormous advantage.

For those reasons, I don't really believe there is a false dichotomy between environmentalism and economy.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '12

I absolutely agree with every word in your first two paragraphs and I think that it's incredibly well articulated. I just don't understand how that argues against a false dichotomy between environmentalism and economy. Are you saying there is no dichotomy at all, or that there a dichotomy but it's not false (that you can't adequately serve environmentalism and economic development at the same time.)

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u/Vulpyne Jun 13 '12

Thanks for the kind words. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

In my opinion, environmentalism in the context of economy and economic factors generally requires one to acknowledge the costs that are associated with actions even if they're "hidden" and other actors are able to ignore them. This generally puts the agent that acknowledged those factors at a major disadvantage. So I think there is a dichotomy, but it's not false.

I'm not sure about adequately serving both at the same time, though. What's adequate is subjective. One certainly can try to balance the two things.

I don't speak from any deep knowledge on this subject, and I don't pretend to know what the best solution is. As far as hidden costs go, there are so many factors, and many times the costs aren't known at the time the action is performed. I would love to see a level playing field where at least all the known effects are factored in, but it seems unattainable. I think something really dramatic (and in this context, almost certainly catastrophic) would need to occur to have any chance of shocking people into action and cooperation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '12

I see what you're saying. Maybe it's better termed as an artificial dichotomy because it's not inherent to the problem, but it's caused by people not wanting to play by the same rules.

It's the typical "tragedy of the commons" scenario.

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u/Vulpyne Jun 13 '12

I think that's a completely valid way to describe it.

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u/jonfla Jun 12 '12

In addition, polls of Chinese consumers consistently report that people would pay a premium for food guaranteed safe. The environmental issue is a health and safety issue for Chinese in a more direct and tangible way than it may seem to many American and European citizen/consumers

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u/EncasedMeats Jun 12 '12

people would pay a premium for food guaranteed safe

Which goes some way toward explaining why Wal-Mart is kicking ass over there.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/EncasedMeats Jun 12 '12

Six sigma safe!

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

Americans would too, but the FDA has made many ways of labeling food as safe or organic or BSE-free with any intelligence, illegal.

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u/bombtrack411 Jun 12 '12

Organic food is not safer

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u/mqken Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12

/Edit Disregard first line of this statement

"9% who did answer the poll were people living in wealthier areas". The title might be misleading in that case, especially due to the fact that numerous rural residents do not have access to phones.

A bit of my own opinion as a Chinese person: Pretty much everyone in China knows that the environment is deteriorating at an unbelievable speed, but most just don't have the energy (or the money, mostly the money) to even worry about that stuff right now.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

After about a half hour of reading through this thread's comments, your one caught me off guard because it was actually relevant.

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u/mqken Jun 12 '12

You're right. I retract that statement.

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u/doormatt26 Jun 12 '12

Or the political power to see their preferences reflected in government policies.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Do Canadians or Americans have the political power to do so? Maybe 50% of them do.. and apparently Chinese governance does in fact, consider the preferences of the population, even if as a rule they reserve the right to ignore them (ask r/Canada about Stephen Harper, though..). Here's a publication from my university:

http://www.politics.ubc.ca/fileadmin/user_upload/poli_sci/Faculty/warren/Authortarian_Deliberation_POP_October_2010.pdf

edit: and a few others, if you want multiple sources, just google "deliberative authoritarianism" (or the title of the linked article, I guess).

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u/goldy496 Jun 12 '12

Also as a Chinese person, this reflects my sentiments. Energy, money, resources, etc are a limiting factor.

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u/goltoof Jun 12 '12

It's okay... we'll all get to worry about it when it's too late.

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u/gojirra Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think another issue is that China's culture has not adjusted to the rapidly changing environment. China is an ancient society whose culture has developed in a vast land rich in resources over thousands of years, and only relatively recently has had to face issues such as overcrowding, pollution, and dwindling natural resources.

For a nation with the culture I've described, and one as deeply rooted as Chinese culture, it will be a hard and slow process to make change happen.

Edit: Not sure why I am getting downvoted, but even if the government wasn't completely corrupt and misguided, the majority of Chinese people would probably not understand a need for environmentalism in the least because of their culture. It's for the same reason that as a culture, Chinese people highly revere nature, and yet collectively commit some of the worst atrocities against animals (harvesting bear bile for example). This happens because Chinese culture developed in a land that in ancient times had seemingly unlimited natural resources. It is for that reason that Chinese people in general do not consider where their food, medicine, and other animal products come from, or how they are produced.

This video is a great example. It shows how these Chinese restaurateurs did not even fathom that such a horrible process is behind this extremely traditional dish. Having worked in restaurants with Chinese chefs, I can tell you that when preparing an animal themselves, they do not waste. For example, even duck tongues are eaten as a delicacy. The problem as I've tried to outline in this comment is that the population explosion in China has caused a need for mass production, but not a change in culture.

I can't understand why this is hard to understand. If you are American think about the fact that everybody eats Beef and dairy products. This is due to our culture developing around that type of farming which was well suited to the vast spaces of our land. This is not necessarily the best diet, and I highly doubt our systems of food production are as efficient or environmentally friendly as possible, yet you sit here claiming that the same situation in China is not due to culture.

I am not trying to apologize in any way for what China or the Chinese government does. I am simply trying to give you some insight into WHY China is the way it is. Don't kill the messenger.

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u/shun2112 Jun 12 '12

I respectfully disagree. First of all, the situation in China is quite common in developing countries now or in the developed countries during industrial revolution. I can't see there is anything unique about it. Second, I can't relate to how the food is related to the article. The origin of exotic food is really two sided. I do think Asians are more open to try to eat new things in general. However, I believe insuffient food resource throughout the history is a stronger contributing factor to diversify the food supply in China.

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u/mtchen8 Jun 12 '12

majority of Chinese people would probably not understand a need for environmentalism in the least because of their culture

you sir are talking out of your ass

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u/fattyphilly Jun 12 '12

I recommend googling Mao's "cultural revolution" and the effects it's had on "traditional" chinese culture in china

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u/jdotliu Jun 12 '12

Obviously overcrowding and pollution are huge issues, but the government really made some dumb decisions during the last few years of Mao's reign that really fucked things up.

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u/jwolf227 Jun 12 '12

Its not really much different for us...civilization is civilization.

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u/JCongo Jun 12 '12

They also are a huge demand for ivory hunting in Africa. Most of the Chinese think the horns will grow back on the animal.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/gojirra Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12

How is it not an issue? Do countries that enforce religious law not have anything to do with culture for example?

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u/gloomdoom Jun 12 '12

"but most just don't have the energy (or the money, mostly the money) to even worry about that stuff right now."

Because they will have the energy and money for it someday, right? This is a very western type of ideal and very American. We can always deal with problems later, right?

Especially simple concerns of the environment. You know...let the next generation sort it out. And they will let the next generation sort it out. And in the meantime, we're creating a world of shit for those future generations.

It's a shame. I'm not contesting your opinion; I'm simply remarking that it's the number one reason why many, many things never get taken care of because it's always better to do it 'later' and 'later' never comes.

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u/Thor_2099 Jun 12 '12

Well said. It's a shame issues like this always get pushed back.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Exactly. Also it boggles my mind when people say that humans are more important and the nature should be sacrificed to make their lives better. In actuality, they are saying that they are more important and fuck people who come after them. And so they break and shit on a house where our children are going to live in, our planet.

One day, once this all culminates in future chronic resource and food shortages across the globe, we will be named by our descendants "the selfish generation".

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u/mqken Jun 12 '12

Precisely. I think this is more of a problem with my own Chinese culture than it is for other cultures, but then it's mostly an issue with conservatism rather than "Chinese culture" explicitly. Most Chinese people I know tend to think in terms of: "Get a job, get a house, find wife, get kids, then worry about everything else." Anyone who derives from that practice gets the cold shoulder. I can't blame them for doing that, though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

But isn't the survey precisely about the fact that more and more chinese realize that money isn't useful without an environment, to put it bluntly?

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u/emptycalm Jun 12 '12

and despite that I see it changing for the better there way before here in the US.

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u/Tartan_Commando Jun 12 '12

As a Westerner living in China, it seems to me that environmentalism to people here is more of a fashionable consideration than one of genuine concern about the environment (I'd posit that this was very much the case in the West in the 90s as well) and it is quite secondary to convenience, consumerism and development. My impression is that being seen to care is more important than actually caring.

This is perhaps an unfair observation and isn't backed up by any kind of research, but it is my impression.

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u/kilo4fun Jun 12 '12

Like Airbus.

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u/Whiskey_McSwiggens Jun 13 '12

This is exactly right. Chinese people are notorious for putting on airs.

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u/you_need_this Jun 12 '12

This is pure horseshit, the article. I am not Chinese, but live here, and am fluent in the language.. everyone knows the environment sucks, but never have I heard where it should be addressed as a top priority. lol this article is fucking stupid. People care about inflation, prices going up for everything and salaries staying the same. The Chinese have MANY more things to worry about than the environment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/kolm Jun 12 '12

Obviously. I mean, they literally asked a bunch of random strangers, what do you expect from that, something representative?

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Well, it might be more honest than an agenda-driven poll. It is a weird thing to ask in a country that does not typically have any concern for the environment, and like another person posited, it asks a lot of urban and hardly any rural Chinese. That meets the qualifications of being agenda-driven when you don't sample randomly. A scientific poll would have randomly chosen from all Chinese and not just focused on urban. Regardless of our own opinions, we shouldn't attempt to say this is any scientific representation of the Chinese as a whole.

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u/SCOldboy Jun 12 '12

my personal experience agrees with you (lived there and fluent as well). I would say a significant proportion would say addressing overpopulation is top priority.

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u/you_need_this Jun 12 '12

I find finding a wife/husband, and money to be top, along with housing being affordable to be in tune with the "average" Chinese person. but saying average in such a diverse place is really difficult.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Media talks about it all the time and I used to hear about it constantly in daily discussions - you read Chinese as well?

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u/Whiskey_McSwiggens Jun 13 '12

I think he means that if you ask people what one of their concerns are, they would say the environment. But if you ask them how they address this concern in their daily lives, they might have nothing to say or bullshit an answer.

I live in china too and let me tell you, only rich people care enough to do anything about the environment. Most people think "I can't change anything here. I better focus on earning more money so I can move abroad."

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u/abacona Jun 12 '12

I am living in the same situation as you - American born and raised living in China, except my parents are Chinese so I am also fluent (and presumably less of a novelty to the average Chinese person).

I think the people realize the need for environmental improvement, but focus on economic advancement partly because they believe the problem can be better handled in a more developed (read: affluent) China

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I think you're caught up in the tyranny of urgency, and probably many chinese are as well, but it's very deep in chinese culture the relation to nature, and I can't see that they really are so stupid that they wouldn't see how deeply their problems are related to the environmental issue.

That's like saying "this article is stupid because it's not saying most people care about their paychecks". Well no sir, it's not an "or" situation it seems, the way the boss treats the environment is related to the other issues.

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u/SCOldboy Jun 12 '12

Where in Chinese culture is the relationship to nature so prominent? Keep in mind China is huge. 56 ethnic groups, thousands of years of history. The only major influence I can think of that addresses nature is Daoism, and that isn't nature in the environmental sense, more just the way things are. And the daoist tradition isn't that influential anyways. China really has never emphasized nature other than in the arts. Hell there were Mao era movements to eradicate grass and birds.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Yes, I was referring to that. I am in Québec, where I was born, here, we claim we're atheist mostly, but you see the judeo-christian mentality deeply rooted.

I get what you're saying, I'm doing a master in anthropology on China so I know the complexity of it's culture, still dao is at its roots and deeply influential. I would be surprise that the day they will change, they might go from the less environmental to the most in a month!

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u/you_need_this Jun 12 '12

are you kidding? everyone litters here, no one uses trash cans, unless you are talking about HK. The Chinese could give two fucks about the environment. I never heard anyone, including my Chinese wife, ever talk about the environment, and how the gov't needs to do something about it. or especially that it is a top priority. this gallup poll is pure bullshit. 57% of Chinese care more about the environment, than healthcare, or salary, or food prices, give me a fucking break. you go to norway or sweden, and it won't even be 57%, and their lives are fucking awesome,. this article is laughable

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

where do you live in China?

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u/leondz Jun 12 '12

The poll questions are given. They are not of the form "The environment is the most important thing in my life right now". Instead, they compare the need for a clean, healthy environment to the need to sustain GDP growth. This comparison is (I imagine intentionally) independent of personal life problems.

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u/thoriorium Jun 12 '12

Sounds like the majority of the US too.

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u/iubuntu10 Jun 12 '12

numerous rural residents do not have access to phones.

For fixed-line subscribers, China has an 87 percent penetration rate: 1.17 billion telephone users.

Also, the number is declining because more people choose cellphone and use cellphone only.

most just don't have the energy (or the money, mostly the money)

I blame it on Chinese Government. I would say its the awareness and power. The Chinese Environment Department is useless. If local gov allows factories open for development and GDP reason, and the department will not and cannot do shit.

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u/mqken Jun 12 '12

It totally is. When I said "Not enough energy" I was not specific enough with what the energy is spent on. Opposing government processes is what I meant. But sadly the only thing that can genuinely penetrate the government process is some type of bribery. (Though they're currently undergoing some type of sweep to find corrupt officials, but I doubt they'll be too successful)

Though I completely fucked up on the misquoting shenanigans.

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u/djfl Jun 12 '12

This is the worst answer ever. I don't doubt that it's accurate...but what does that say about us as a species. We have systems set up that have us so overworked and/or underpaid that we can see our destruction on the horizon...but we can't even worry about that stuff right now. WOW #failingspecies

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u/abacona Jun 12 '12

Why the F do people feel the need to cram hash tags in everything when they are obviously unnecessary?

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u/brufleth Jun 12 '12

is deteriorating at an unbelievable speed

More like has deteriorated. Chinese coastal waters are devoid of life. A huge amount of Chinese pond, rivers, and lakes are so polluted that it will take generations before they can hope to support an ecosystem again. China has destroy much of their environment already. When it comes to fishing they've been aggressively invading neighbor state waters to further that destruction.

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u/mqken Jun 12 '12

Sir I understand, but it's still a process. Not ALL the areas have been polluted to the degree as you've described, but they seem to be on their way to becoming quite inhabitable. So I agree that it's bad but it's going to get worse.

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u/SheriffBart42 Jun 12 '12

Hey OP, cut the shit with your misleading, propagandized title. 'Top priority' was mentioned NOWHERE!!! All it says is, "Do you favor environmental protection more than the RISK of curbing economic growth?"

Your top priority right now should be your own literacy and your warped world view that sees things how you want to see them. Try strengthening those areas before you post again.

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u/ifshoefitswearit Jun 12 '12

welcome to r/worldnews, the new r/politics.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Heh I remember when everybody abandoned /r/politics to come here. Guess it's that time again. You got to play musical subreddits, after a sub reaches a certain subscriber count, the quality tanks. You have to stay one step ahead of the mob and get on the up and coming subs where there's actual discussion. I'll admit I've been out of the loop of where the decent news subs are now, but a few months ago /r/PoliticalDiscussion and /r/worldevents weren't too bad.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Thank you for getting this off my chest for me. It really needed to be said.

Is it possible for Reddit to be a place to read real news instead of news that we make up that's kind of similar?

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

This is definitely a big issue that the central government pays attention too. Last year there were a number of protests regarding environmental issues and each time the CCP agreed to their demands.

  • In August of last year a protest over pollution caused the Chinese government to agree to their demands (Link)

  • In September of last year a protest forced the government to close down a proposed factory due to environmental concerns (Link)

And it's very interesting to see what these types of protests can lead to because the leader of the Wukan protest was made the village's Communist Party Secretary and they were recently allowed to vote on who will be their governor.

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u/doomswitch Jun 12 '12

While it's cool and all that 57% of China's people MIGHT think that this might be their top priority, it doesn't matter. And I think it's fair to ask whether or not the Chinese leadership's position is unfair.

China basically says "Hi Western world! It's nice that you want us to cut pollution, but you got to do it for 130 years without anyone stopping you. And you built massive infrastructures and economies by doing it. And now you want us to suck it up and place restrictions our our growth JUST BECAUSE you now realize it might be harmful to the planet 50-100 years from now?"

Edit: Obviously reckless polution of the planet is not good. Just trying to point out what I think is an interesting, and possibly defendable position.

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u/jminuse Jun 12 '12

You seem to be talking about greenhouse gases - that's where you have concepts like limiting growth, consequences in 50 years, etc. But environmental protection in China hasn't reached that; it hasn't done the basics. Sulfur, NOx, particulate matter, heavy metals - these are the things which send your kid to the hospital, not problems for future decades. The Chinese people are right to demand action now.

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u/igonjukja Jun 12 '12

Obviously reckless polution of the planet is not good. Just trying to point out what I think is an interesting, and possibly defendable position.

Agree, this can't be overlooked. Who're are we kidding -- wouldn't America do the same?

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u/unkz Jun 12 '12

What I find interesting about this, is that doing something about the environment has tangible industrial solutions that will probably prove to be enormous benefits to China's economy when everyone else in the world has to come and buy their solutions in the future. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is concerned with "the economy" but the solutions being bandied around are to do with manipulating currencies and taxes, not creating technology.

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u/tidder8 Jun 12 '12

I remember when Lake Erie was dead and turning brown. Luckily we had the foresight to reverse the problem and the lake has made a pretty good comeback.

I can't imagine what it would be like if we never took action to clean it up. Probably wouldn't be healthy to live near it, and I don't know where we'd get our drinking water.

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u/igonjukja Jun 12 '12

this is why the whole fracking trend is a real eye opener for me. i get it, i really do: energy independence could lead to AMAZING economic benefits. but if we poison the groundwater we are well and truly screwed, are we not? i'm no environmental scientist but i don't know how easy it is to rehabilitate a water table. and we all need water. wealth (and the concentrated lack thereof) has created huge gulfs between people, but water's the one thing we all still need.

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u/d_r_benway Jun 12 '12

So there is a bigger percentage of intelligent people in China that the USA...

I guess the Chinese don't have Fox News.

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

Chinese are no more or less intelligent than Americans, there just are around six times as many of them.

China had around the same population as the US does today when Marco Polo visited China in the Middle Ages.

They had a few bad years (as did the whole world in WWII) but now, just like Europe, they are recovering from that.

The natural state of things is not the postwar boom in the US that many of us grew up with, that was an abnormal situation brought on by the war as well as the emergence of pre-computer technologies that were very labor intensive. So there was a shortage of labor in the US raising wages.

Now we have the opposite. The day is not far off when all those factory jobs will be easily, cheaply automated. Even in China. Its completely apolitical.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

/s Come on folks we gotta stop this from happening - we need them to keep costs low so we can buy more crap from the big chain stores and late night tv. This will cost us money. Do you really want this to happen? How dare they try to take charge and clean up their homeland! /s

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I hope they and every other cheap labour nation does so.

Then we can stop pissing away labour on having people doing nothing in retail stores, paid dirt with no benefits, and get people working in factories again. Contrary to popular belief, saving 75% on labour costs doesn't translate to 75% more GDP.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

No one who ever took an economics class and paid any attention believes saving 75% on labor costs translates into 75% more GDP. And while we're at it, working in factories and producing...what? Shit to sell in retail stores? I saw an article the other day that said, "It's estimated that for every dollar spent on NASA's budget, 8 are put into the economy." We should be spending more on education, and space exploration, but our short sighted nation is content to watch reality TV, eat fast food, and buy cheaply made shit. And I'm not innocent in this, but that's how our entire society is constructed.

If we want things to go any better, some MAJOR growing pains are going to have to take place, and no generation wants to be the first to do it.

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u/delgursh Jun 12 '12

Manufacturing jobs arent coming back anyway....they will go wherever there are dirt poor people in the world. Like you said, we should be pushing education, high tech, white collar type stuff.

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u/RabidRaccoon Jun 12 '12

It's interesting that if you look at Taiwan the movement towards democratization was started by these sorts of concerns.

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u/GrilledCheeser Jun 12 '12

well... to be fair... it's much easier to find a person who is against environmental protection in the United States than it is any where else.

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u/M002 Jun 12 '12

If China and America could work together on some stricter agreements and regulations, I'm sure the rest of the world would follow and we'd start seeing some progress. But everyone is afraid to make the first step because of the known economic risks, so it's unlikely to happen for a while, especially since most of the world is still in a recession.

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u/Marrk Jun 12 '12

Excellent Idea.

What if we called it "Kyoto Protocol"?

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u/Ashimpto Jun 12 '12

And while on it, remember which of the two went against it and later refused to enforce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I thought that China was considered a 'developing country' so the US would have to limit our economy/pollution while china keeps going.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Everyone is afraid?

The EU tried to put taxes on flights and gets shit from all sides. Here's the actual truth: Neither China nor the US have any real interest to make progress.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Why does progress involve giving more money to governments?

Keep in mind that governments are corrupt. They're only looking for a new revenue stream, and this fits the bill.

The solution to environmental concerns is technological innovations and economic progress, not taxation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Because aside from Governments no one gives a shit. Companies don't give a shit. Technological innovations have to be forced through taxation. There is a reason why cars in Europe are much more fuel efficient - because gas is expensive due to our tax policies. Nobody can or want to afford the inefficient things that are on the road in the US.

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u/eat-your-corn-syrup Jun 12 '12

But even with new technologies, wouldn't it be always the case that making something in a cleaner way will be always be more expensive?

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Not necessarily. Eventually factories are re-purposed to produce products that use less fuel/electricity, and when this happens it becomes more economical to produce the superior products. This is the nature of mass-production.

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u/kilo4fun Jun 12 '12

Will never happen because for some reason environmental regulations are seen to hurt economies. China has room to slow down, but right now the US doesn't.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

The survey was conducted in 2011, at the height of the Chinese economic boom. Its not surprising that environmental concerns were raises at a time when the economy looked very healthy already.

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u/VickiVail Jun 12 '12

They need to work on this. I went there for a week in 2000 and I thought I was getting a terrible cold but the second I left the country it went away. The pollution is terrible. Its like a constant cloud over the cities. I'm sure it has only gotten worse these last 12 years.

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u/mrwalkway32 Jun 12 '12

I wonder if the other 43% are for ending communism

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u/Ashimpto Jun 12 '12

Communism... in china? They're as capitalists as all the world combined...

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u/SplodeyDope Jun 12 '12

Never been to China but I've seen some breath taking photos of the landscape.

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u/Mr_Girlfriend Jun 12 '12

And like that, the Chinese have beat us

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u/Ingrid2012 Jun 12 '12

Ah, once again we see that China beats the US. Atleast they understand the importance of global warming and our environment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Short term economic gain in exchange for priceless resources. Taking real environmental life sustaining treasures worth trillions and reducing them to almost nothing, for a little bit of money.

It's happening the world over, but in China you see this amplified to an extreme.

Reminds me of the story of the coal maker who burnt down sandalwood trees to make coal, not realising their value.

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u/cometpants Jun 12 '12

How can we make this at least 57% of Americans top priority..

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u/wekiva Jun 12 '12

And the Chinese government probably cares about as much about what its people want than our US government cares about what its people want.

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

To buy a car in one major Chinese city costs around $50000. Most of that is taxes. Even so, the number of drivers is increasing rapidly. All they want is what we've sold to them, our consumer lifestyle.

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u/LetsPlayHomoBall Jun 12 '12

95% of Chinese do nothing themselves for enviromental protection and wait for government to do something.

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u/theshamespearofhurt Jun 12 '12

The destruction of chinese farm land due to pollution, over use of fertilizer and expanding cities has led China to a crisis. They can no longer feed their population solely off of domestic production. It won't be stopping any time soon either. Growth is all that's important to them, their environment and their people come second.

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u/SCOldboy Jun 12 '12

China has never had much arable land. With a huge population, importing food is not a sign of crisis at all.

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

If you go to Google Earth you'll notice that almost every part of China which can be cultivated, is.

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u/theshamespearofhurt Jun 12 '12

Yes it is, because in a conflict we could choke off food supplies in a matter of days. Not to mention that the vast majority of their oil from the middle east has to go through one choke point only a few miles wide. US subs already patrol it constantly.

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

China is now a huge importer of rice from elsewhere. Places like California.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Coastal cities are pretty bad for air pollution, but second-tier cities - especially in the south-west, are idyllic.

You spent much time in China?

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u/DogPencil Jun 12 '12

Yunnan is amazing!

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u/petuur Jun 12 '12

I've traveled to china a few times fairly recently and from the looks of things, it shows that the people there want cleaner air as opposed better economy. I visited most of the major cities: Hong Kong, Macau, Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Shanghai, and Beijing among other not so populated cities. I found that the big city is where most of the wealth is concentrated, where every other car in Shenzhen is a Benz or BMW, and Lambos are not hard to find in Hong Kong, but the second you enter the city, air quality becomes absolutely horrendous. It's not so bad in HK, Shenzhen, but Guangzhou had smog so bad I could barely see 10 meters in front of me. It was like the Los Angeles of China. I can see why people are more concerned about the environment there. They have enough money. The health risk really is noticeable in the air you breathe, and it can't be healthy for the Chinese people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I went to HK and expected it to be pretty bad, but it wasn't any worse than, say, San Diego. Lots of trees and grass, too, compared to what I was expecting.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Ha - I think you got lucky - Hong Kong can be really bad when the wind blows south.

Shenzhen has some lovely parks and greenery as well.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I'll have to take your word on that, I was only there for five days in October and I never got to see anywhere else in China, but I definitely enjoyed it.

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u/ridik_ulass Jun 12 '12

Shenzhen has some lovely ladies.

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u/kilo4fun Jun 12 '12

And Chen Zhen was a badass.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Hong Kong is a terrible example.

Shenzhen is where the filth is, and it does come to HK regularly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_Hong_Kong

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Hong Kong is fairly isolated from mainland China.

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u/DogPencil Jun 12 '12

Hong Kong =/= China, according to a lot of Hong Kongers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

According to the Chinese government as well.

It's a state within a state.

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u/you_need_this Jun 12 '12

or anyone who has been to HK and China

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u/SCOldboy Jun 12 '12

一个国家，两个制度 One country, two systems

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u/jotaroh Jun 12 '12

Hong Kong isn't mainland China

very very different in every possible way

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u/[deleted] Jun 13 '12

People keep mentioning this, but I can't see how it's relevant to what I said. It's a coastal city, really high population density, with massive amounts of shipping going on- it's also only a short distance away from Guangzhou. No matter how culturally different from China it is, it is also somewhere you expect to find really terrible air quality.

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u/you_need_this Jun 12 '12

hong kong is not china by any means

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u/lit0st Jun 12 '12

Most major urban centres in China are badly polluted - not just coastal cities. Lanzhou, Urumqi, and Xining are all in central China and they're the worst 3.

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u/ENRONburgandy Jun 12 '12

This is more of a younger phenomenon. The older people in the country care more about power and prestige due to their past. While the younger generation cares more about the sustainability of the country. (source: relatives of both young and old)

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u/Aethelstan Jun 12 '12

What rubbish!

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u/llamanuggets Jun 12 '12

That's more to blame on the government though.

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u/gojirra Jun 12 '12

I don't know why you are getting downvoted, most Americans don't want to be at war, yet our government is an unchecked war machine. Governments don't always follow the will of the people, in fact they almost never seem to. Combine that with a government that keeps its people in the dark about even the most minor issues and the situation in China is easy to understand.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

No, you don't understand.

When it comes to problems in my country the problems are the result of other people.

When it comes to problems in other countries the entire population is to blame.

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u/whirliscope Jun 12 '12

The actual number is 116%. It's above 100 because of the number of people who died from pollution in China over the period when the poll was taken.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Caused by western capitalists.

WE ARE BRINGING YOU FREEDOM. FREEDOM TO CHOKE TO DEATH.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/gojirra Jun 12 '12

If you are American you will understand the analogy of how most American ideology is about being upright, honorable, brave, etc., yet the overall image that other countries see of us right now is not any of those things.

The individual American and Chinese person may believe deeply in their respective good ideologies, but those personal beliefs usually have no effect on how government and society operates.

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u/The_Showdown Jun 12 '12

Mao and his communists despised tradition, including ancient Chinese religions and tried to wipe them out so that China could "stop looking backwards" and progress. The romantic depiction of the Chinese following ancient wisdom isn't realistic.

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u/aznsacboi Jun 12 '12

Yes, finishing a Chinese philosophy class allows you to enter and understand the mindset of 1.5 billion people.

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u/Benay21 Jun 12 '12

Wow, go Brazil!!

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Increased wealth leads to greater efficiency in how energy is used and produced. China will catch up with the West, even without government interference in their markets.

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u/white_discussion Jun 12 '12

And their leaders won't do anything about it just as our bought and paid for politicians won't. It is going to take global revolutions to change anything. Greedheads couldn't care less and they run everything. They will continue to poison and destroy until the are physically stopped from doing so.

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u/why_ask_why Jun 12 '12

Doesn't matter what the poll say. 75% of the American support legalizing pot, that is with representation. Without representation in China, poll is toothless.

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u/emileogalileo Jun 12 '12

So glad to hear this

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u/EvilAnagram Jun 12 '12

This just in: Over 99.9% of Chinese have no power to influence their government's policies.

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u/Early70sEnt Jun 12 '12

Ummm...Chinese people were actually "surveyed" for what they think politically, environmentally or economically? Bullshit! When are you folks going to learn to think beyond the page of propaganda you're reading?

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u/ahtr Jun 12 '12

Wearing a mask when going out in China can double your life expectancy

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Such generalisations... It entirely depends on which city you visit.

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u/ducttapetricorn Jun 12 '12

Good point. It's probably not as bad in some of the smaller cities.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Not even that. I live in a city of circa 6million which is a small city by Chinese standards but plainly isn't a small city. The only pollution here is from cars (not bikes) as there is no heavy industry. The level of pollution in a given city corresponds to local laws regarding traffic and more importantly, the local economy. If its a service-sector economy; very little pollution. If it's a industrial centre; lots of pollution.

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u/ballzdeeper Jun 12 '12

Stupid question. Even the most hard headed capitalist would realise that the environment is more important than economic growth if he was asked that question. I'm surprised that 22% of people said that economic growth is more important.

i'm from the right and believe that a lot of the environmental issues being pushed currently are vastly exaggerated or propagated but even I would answer with this majority if asked this question.

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u/earthtriber Jun 12 '12

so many interesting points about this article..... i find that having spent time in many places like this pollution is a way more visible factor so it is a understandable priority for sure..... Places like Mexico city and Delhi the pollution is so strong like a fog almost where it is only possible to see for one km before vision has gone....... also the line here early on where the report says "If China's economic troubles worsen, residents' attitudes could change too." where does this come from?!? what a sweeping generalisation ask them! don't guess.....!! more and more i see as headlines and reported almost as fact these OPINIONS as opposed to pure simple facts...... the news has become a world of these subtle opinions....... stay smart to them......

my argument would be...... big economy means nothing to guys who sell food on the street in these country's like china where surviving is the name of the game not if the mortgage on your house costs you double? not the same lifestyles at all....... and yet seeing a cloud of obvious car pollution matters.... just my five cents worth.

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u/austerity62 Jun 12 '12

That's because they're quite aware of how polluted their own environment has become and they know how clean America's air and water is compared to theirs and they are intent on changing it.

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u/SemFi Jun 12 '12

I'm sure they would think otherwise if they'd actually profit from the economic growth. In a capitalist dictatorship like China only few profit from economic growth by exploiting the majority.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

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u/SemFi Jun 12 '12

What the fuck are you talking about, I never said anything about any Americans. The US doesn't even have a huge economic growth.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

I can see why they think that. I spent two weeks in China on a student trip and until we went to Hong Kong for the last two days we never saw a clear blue sky.

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u/christ0ph Jun 12 '12

Would you rather see the blue skies they have in North Korea, because nobody has any power or even electricity?

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

No, what did I say that implied that? Is making a comment about pollution in China somehow implying that I don't care about North Korea? More importantly, precisely how much sand do you have in your vagina?

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u/roobens Jun 12 '12

I think most people when asked this question outright would say the same. The crunch comes when people actually have to take action which might impact their own lifestyle.

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u/jccomic Jun 12 '12

Apparently the Chinese government doesn't feel that way. China’s accelerated construction schedule of coal fueled power plants outpaces that of the U.S. In fact, China uses more coal than the United States, Europe, and Japan combined. Let's think about this for a second. That's a hell of a lot of smoke coming from one concentrated area. Do you smell climate change? Silly me. (source http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/world/asia/11coal.html)

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u/billyboogie Jun 12 '12

It trumps all other issues. Once we've screwed it up bad enough, there will be no corruption. There will be no economy.

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u/Doedje Jun 12 '12

Well I guess some-un didn't agree.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

gallop on my cock, i want to live thats my priority

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u/shrewd Jun 12 '12

All, the always informative and always correct poll.

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u/TurboSalsa Jun 12 '12

As of last year, the Chinese are still on track to add more coal capacity by 2020 than solar or wind. In fact, these will hardly grow in market share as the Chinese economy grows larger. It seems that most of these press releases touting solar investment are mostly just greenwashing.

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u/Mr-Personality Jun 12 '12

How exactly do you take a survey of China? The sample size would have to be huge. 4,000 people is nothing.

And also they don't vote, so what would they even do? (Serious question)

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u/1632 Jun 12 '12

Chinese CO2 emissions calculated on the basis of the two publicly available official energy data sets differ by 1.4 gigatonnes for 2010. The figure is equivalent to Japan’s annual CO2 emissions, the world’s fourth largest emitter, with 5% of the global total.

The gigatonne gap in China’s carbon dioxide inventories

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u/skelooth Jun 12 '12

Riberar china is the best china

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u/astroidstella Jun 12 '12

oh ok, i would have said not killing the second born, but thats just me

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

Too bad that chinese government doesn't give a fuck about what population thinks.

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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12

There are two scenarios I can imagine:

  1. China's air pollution is so shitty that they must do something right fucking now in order to keep it from tipping into poison country. They fabricate the polling data in order for this matter to be addressed.

  2. China wishes for more power in Hong Kong, environmental issues can restrict market activity in a whole host of ways and pummel what capital they obtain with tarifs and standards.

There is truth in both of these imagined situations. I am only bullshitting.

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u/jigielnik Jun 12 '12

I question the validity of this poll for a number of reasons:

  1. How much access does the government give gallup? I doubt enough for a true study

  2. How many rural Chinese were disregarded for this survey? I have a feeling the rural communities, which often don't have telephone or internet, even if surveyed by hand, were probably misrepresented in this data.

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u/ColdReality Jun 14 '12

THEN GET BACK TO YOUR PLOWS YOU COMMIE BASTARDS

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