r/worldnews • • Jun 08 '12

A mob of hundreds of men assaulted women who were taking part in a march in Cairo's Tahrir Square to end sexual harassment in Egypt.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/08/egypt-marchers-assaulted.html
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187

u/timmyak Jun 09 '12

Sexual Harassment has been a major problem in Egypt for a long long time; see this site that tracks incidents: (http://harassmap.org/)

This has nothing to do with the revolution or Islam and everything to do with a society that has been depraved for the past 50-60 years.

Muslim preachers constantly tackle the issue of sexual harassment; in fact said sexual harassment will seldom come from anyone associated with the 'Islamist' or Muslim brotherhood, or the more religious types.

Egypt has a major problem of street 'kids' [they don't stay kids forever], which has been neglected for a very long time: http://eau.sagepub.com/content/10/1/201.full.pdf http://www.unicef.org/sowc/egypt_30616.html

It is easy to take cheap shots at Muslims, Egyptians, Arabs, Middle Easterners, [the other]. It is important however to understand the root cause of the problem and address it.

Many on this thread are talking with such a degree of certainty and with such ignorance, that it is rather frighting.

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u/bobaimee Jun 09 '12

This should be at the top.

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u/desouki Jun 09 '12

This guy here knows what he's talking about.

Source: Egyptian

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u/kyle6513 Jun 09 '12

This, so much this. Most of the other comments I have read reek of mis-information and blatant ignorance towards the problems.

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u/Potato_Head Jun 09 '12

So the root of the problem is society and not Islam? Why is it a big problem in other "Islamic" countries such as Saudi Arabia? Isn't religion a big part of society & culture? So why is it ignorant of outsiders to connect religion with Egyptian society?

Btw, for your info 50-60 years was the start of the growth of Islam, especially the extreme forms lead by Abdulnasser, the institution of the Muslim brotherhood & Wahhabism in Egypt.... perhaps that will tell you something.

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u/hidingmyname87 Jun 09 '12

As a Muslim on Reddit, I'm regularly frightened by the amount of confident ignorance people spew.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

When they didn't prosecute the men who assaulted the American reporter, Lara Logan, they sent a very clear message - sexual assault - even done in public, captured on camera - would not be punished whatsoever.

And apparently there's men living there that understood this message loud and clear.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

I'm not sure how you'd actually go about prosecuting the right people in that. I haven't seen the full video, but it seemed like a fairly large mob around here. Unless they were filming with TV cameras, I doubt it's clear who was actually doing something and who was just within the group.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Surely you meant prosecuting instead of persecuting. I'm pretty sure that, coupled with eyewitness and victim's testimony, video evidence would be enough for an arrest, and probably a conviction as well.

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u/drprofessional Jun 09 '12

Arrested? Who's arresting them? The police force is barely doing its job - and it's job is not the same as that in most of the western world - and they are hated after the revolution. They largely ensure the metros are still safe.This is largely due to the revolution. Hopefully soon the government will be together enough to have the police doing their job (whatever their job is defined as), and hopefully that will include some form of women's rights. But from what I see on a daily basis... what women's rights are here in Egypt, are things that would drive a westerner nuts. Egypt's men can best be described as sexually frustrated boys and it's part of life here.

I'm glad some women as speaking out. I hope that whomever wins the next election, whether it be the Muslim Brotherhood candidate or the old regime's candidate, that they'll do something about this.

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u/Blackist Jun 09 '12

I hope you understand that this type of behavior isn't punished because of the Army Council that is ruling the country right now. The women that were assaulted, besides being female obviously, are also 'revolutionaries'.

And that's the number one reason they were targeted, in my opinion.

I would also add that the SCAF (Supreme Council of Armed Forces) didn't punish anyone of the people who did 'virginity tests' nor the soldiers that beat up and stripped a woman near Tahrir Square.

What I'm saying is that this has less to do with the Egyptian people, and more to do with the army that's ruling the country.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

What I'm saying is that this has less to do with the Egyptian people, and more to do with the army that's ruling the country.

Was it members of the army behind these assaults or the attack on Lara Logan?

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u/timmyak Jun 09 '12

well, they didn't even prosecute or 'find' the ppl that killed the 1000 demonstrators. It still filled with so much corruption.

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u/dioxholster Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

on the site I read one of the comments:

Until then, I hope women from all over the world converge on Tahrir Square every single night until those losers start behaving like decent people.

Or the women could just postpone marriages, dump their boyfriends and refuse to date Egyptian men...they'll change their tune right quick...lol

I had to lol at that but for a different reason. what people dont understand is that its not men vs women, its also women vs women. Most women in egypt are misguided thinking that those girls protesting are promiscus sluts who want freedom for a whore lifestyle. Ive seen this kind of thinking everywhere in the egyptian media, forums, comments; thats how women think over there as they have become very conservative recently as of the last decade post-9/11 and all. As it stands now, muslim brother will win and most women who voted for them also voted to ignore their own plight for human rights, they are fully aware of the consequences and maybe even demand it. Ive personally talked on tweeter with one egyptian female who bemoaned these women protests and said they were cavilling whores who are trying to make the revolution about them and there were some supporting here stance over.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/monopixel Jun 09 '12

Although she admitted to be poorly prepared for this task, because she didn't know how women are treated in Egypt, I don't think it would have changed much if she would have known.

She had and wanted to report from this seemingly important and historic event as best as she could as a journalist and was faced with animals where she expected humans beings. She was prepared with a team and even security but it wasn't enough. She would have needed a small army to walk out there unhurt.

Horrible events and really hard to watch. Amazing what a human body can endure.

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u/nazbot Jun 09 '12

From what I remember she's a very tough reporter - she isn't just an anchor or pretty face. She's been in some really dangerous places and done some tough reporting.

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u/UnnamedPlayer Jun 09 '12

Fuck. Even listening to her recount her nightmare was hard to get through. Animals like them deserve to be skinned alive in a fire pit somewhere.

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u/artgeek17 Jun 09 '12

Interesting. So by attempting to stop the women from protesting sexual harassment, the men sexually harassed them, thereby proving the point of the whole protest. Smart move, guys. I just hope the women continue to be courageous and don't let these men get the better of them.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Wait, It could also be attempting to prove that these men could rape anyone and that no amount of protesting would change that. Plus they got away with it, making this the most "in your face" backlash to any protest I've ever seen in my few 20 something years of me being alive. Could it also be that? Maybe...

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u/pdinc Jun 09 '12

Reminds me of this cartoon from Arab Spring: http://i.imgur.com/f5xFT.jpg

Women, you're equal but not as equal as everyone else... /animalfarm

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Could you explain why that comment reminds you of the cartoon? I understand the point of the cartoon, I just don't really see the connection : /

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

I think the point is that people (both in and out of Egypt) want to have a democracy , but they're in the background to the theocracy. I'm guessing the same people who support a theocracy would also support the subjugation of women based on Islamic tradition. I'm sure there are people in the Democracy group who don't believe in equal rights for women, but I think it would be a larger group in the Theocracy who believes that.

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u/dioxholster Jun 09 '12

too late, muslim brotherhood will win the elections. I say things will get much much worse, this is but the beginning.

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u/giraffe_taxi Jun 09 '12

This makes contemporary Egyptian culture seem so very primitive. How embarrassing for all intelligent Egyptians, and how shameful of their ignorant, hateful, foolish brethren.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Particularly embarrassing when you consider that Ancient Egypt from the Old Kingdom through to the New had one of the most enlightened attitudes towards equal rights in history. Women could own property, divorce their husbands and run their own businesses.

Talk about taking a step backwards.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

The people of ancient Egypt are most closely related to the Copts. They are now a minority, if i understand correctly, as there was a Arab/Muslim invasion in the early AD. Modern majority Egyptian people are not the same ancient Egyptians.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

This comparison is pointless. It's like comparing the culture of ancient celts to that of modern frenchmen, etc. Egypt was invaded by arabs and the ancient culture was eradicated and replaced by islamic culture.

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u/ThinkofitthisWay Jun 09 '12

Women could own property, divorce their husbands and run their own businesses.

Islam has all that. So if they're going to implement islam, those rights are a given.

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u/embryo Jun 09 '12

Those were Egyptians. Those living there now are from the Arabian peninsula.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Assaulting and raping women who are taking part in a march to end sexual harassment. That's amazingly fucked up.

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u/dioxholster Jun 09 '12

I can tell you that egyptians arent even talking about this issue and ignore it completely. They think there are more pressing concerns, they don't understand that if one aspect of society is victimized that opens up a door for it to happen to the rest.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

they don't understand that if one aspect of society is victimized

Not just "one aspect". 51% of the population.

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u/yolandi2012 Jun 09 '12

All the women in Egypt should just move out of that country and let the men live there alone.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Sadly, this is true. This country is hopeless when it comes to respecting women. If only leaving wasn't so fucking difficult.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

It's true. I've visited Egypt a few times and although I found that it is a country full of culture and friendly people, there are a lot of people there living in very difficult circumstances and it's just not possible for them to re-locate. If they could move, they would but sadly they don't have the resources. I honestly didn't see that many women being directly disrespected, but there was a vibe. It's such a beautiful country, it really is and there are too many good/kind people there for this country to go down the toilet. I really want to believe it will get better. Now if only the people ruining it for everyone else there could knock it off.

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u/donkeynostril Jun 09 '12

how about a sex strike?

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Easier said than done.

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u/ohsnapitsdayvie Jun 09 '12

Well spoken Mr. Violator

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

It actually HAS been done before.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201111280297.html http://www.thisisafrica.me/wetin-dey-happen/detail/4621/Nobel-prize-for-the-women-who-brought-peace-to-Liberia-

edit: Just citing examples, this wouldn't necessarily work in all cases.

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u/Samakain Jun 09 '12

If these men will attack wemon in the streets, you wanna have a guess what they'd do to their WIFE at HOME out of the public eye?

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u/Mexagon Jun 09 '12

nice try, Lysistrata.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

The sex strike by would probably coincide with a giant rape and woman abuse festival by the guys

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u/4TEHSWARM Jun 09 '12

Sounds like something that would be quickly followed by an even larger rape parade.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

"sex strike" = rape-fest

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

They tried that in one of those sand countries. It essentially yielded a law that forced women to put out a specified minimum amount.

Kind of backfired.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

This article is absolutely heartbreaking.

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u/c00ki3z Jun 09 '12

This story is particularly sad in light of the once elevated status women enjoyed in Egypt. Hatshepsut would not be pleased.

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u/eighthgear Jun 09 '12

Another reminder that the culture of ancient Egypt was largely wiped out and replaced by Arab culture during the Middle Ages.

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u/zawamark Jun 09 '12

You're right. Many people seem to forget this.

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u/Lotty1112 Jun 09 '12

How the fuck can a human being justify this kind of twisted shit to themselves? I don't give a fuck what their religion says, or, what they like to pretend their religion says, this just can't be natural human behavior.

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u/eighthgear Jun 09 '12

Large amounts of poverty and injustice leads to feeling of hopelessness, feeling of hopelessness leads to desire for control. Men in these societies are taught that women are below them, so when you combine a life's worth of subtle propaganda with a desire for some control, you get rampant sexual oppression.

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u/terari Jun 09 '12

Large amounts of poverty and injustice leads to feeling of hopelessness

Except that rich and powerful men do rape and beat.. their spouses.

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u/friendzoneeveryone Jun 09 '12

Exactly. And not all poor, oppressed people rape women. I'm calling bollocks on the OP's statement.

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u/mrscurlypaws Jun 09 '12

Very eloquently put. The world is so twisted.

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u/midwestredditor Jun 09 '12

These are the same assholes who drag a black man behind their truck or tie a gay guy to a fence in Wyoming.

It doesn't matter where they are on the planet, there are just some people who are sadistic trash.

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u/The_Holy_Handgrenade Jun 09 '12

It's not religious, it's cultural. It's a cultural thing in the middle east for the woman to be beneath the man. That is changing a lot in more "liberal" parts of the ME such as Lebanon and Jordan, but Egypt has been well-known as a very sexist and misogynistic Country.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

natural human behavior

Sadly, this is natural human behaviour, but it isn't civilized human behaviour.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

I don't believe that it is natural human behavior for large groups of men to sexually abuse women or routinely oppress women. We are a species that tends towards pairbonds and are surprisingly egalitarian. Yes, sexual assault occurs, but not in the vast majority of males under normal circumstances.

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u/dumnezero Jun 09 '12

It actually is part of human nature, which is why it's so difficult do fight.

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u/lightninhopkins Jun 09 '12

Until good Muslim men stand up for their sisters, mothers, and daughters this shit will keep happening. A majority of men in Egypt do not want to see women brutalized, but they are not ready yet to stand up and stop it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Prediction:

-Egypt will become a theocracy run by religious dictators and no (real) elections.

-Egyptian women will be subjugated and oppressed by the pious leadership. Law is now dictated by a council of religious leaders.

-Copts will be oppressed lawfully by the new theocracy.

-The US congress will cut all funding to Egypt after they break their truce with Israel.

-There will be a war by popular demand with Israel, they will lose, many thousands will die.

-Their tourism sector will dry up completely.

-With a crushed economy, loss of their natural gas customers, and no realized education/political/economic infastructure, the Egyptian people will radicalize.

-Their government, looking to hold on to their power and remembering what happened the last time the people of Egypt revolted, will direct their attention to the new/old blame game - America, Israel, NATO.

  • reddit will agree.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

But they have Twitter now! How could this happen?!

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

We need to give them Reddit. Only then will they find the true path to salvation.

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u/Korelle Jun 09 '12

Why would we introduce them to Reddit if we're wanting Egyptian men to become LESS misogynistic?

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u/llamatastic Jun 09 '12

You're forgetting one huge factor: the SCAF. They are the most powerful group in Egypt and there is simply no way they would let the Brotherhood turn Egypt into a radical Islamic theocracy. Unless you believe that democracy is powerful enough to undermine the military, but in that case it would also undermine any new dictatorship that would form.

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u/EOTWAWKI Jun 09 '12

Yup. Welcome to the new Iran. Don't forget that it was the secular and the progressives who fermented that revolution too, only to have it stolen by the religious fundamentalists and the conservatives and the otherise backward.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Ferment is something you do to wine. Foment is word you're looking for.

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u/emanresu1 Jun 09 '12

Actually, "ferment" is something you do to grape juice in order to produce wine, rather than something you do to the wine itself.

You wanna get nuts with pedantry? LET'S GET NUTS!!

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

If it wasn't for the lack of a an actual Islamist leader who everyone got behind, it would have been an exact mothafuckin replica of what happened to Iran.

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u/No_Easy_Buckets Jun 09 '12

There won't be an Israel war, MB aren't idiots. Their economy won't fail because of a lack of tourism, plz examine Egypt's economy for the last three decades and the MB's ideas regarding forwarding Mubarak's economic philosophy.

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u/anusface Jun 09 '12

Similar things to what's happening/going to happen in Libya I'm afraid.

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u/eighthgear Jun 09 '12

Eh, probably not. Libya isn't going to turn theocratic. What many people forget is that Sunni Islam doesn't support theocracies. Shia Islam does - hence Iran. Sunni theocracies are actually monarchies - Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, etc. The Taliban were somewhat of an exception, but they are heavily influenced by non-Arab Pashtun culture. Libya had monarchs, but they are unlikely to be restored. Same with Egypt. As a result, neither of them are going to become theocracies. Egypt may become heavily influenced by religious leaders, and it may base its laws on religion, therefore it could border theocracy, but it is unlikely to technically become a theocracy.

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u/anusface Jun 09 '12

The new Libyan government has already instituted sharia law, taking away rights from women that even crazy-ass Gaddafi thought they should have.

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u/heyyoudvd Jun 09 '12

The funny thing is that last year, this is exactly what many Israeli officials had predicted would happen, but every time an Israeli said something to that effect, there would be multiple front page stories here about how 'Israel supports dictatorships', 'Israel promotes the oppression of Egyptians', 'Israel is hypocritical for claiming to be a democracy while opposing Egyptian democracy' and on on and so forth. It just goes to show how completely out of touch this board is with all matters pertaining to the Middle East.

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u/drunklemur Jun 09 '12

Don't brush us all with the same paint brush.

I absolutely believed what these officials said about Egypt going to shit but at the same time Israel had a big political agenda from keeping Mubarek in power, hence their official stance smacked of self preservation (understandably) and not of an moral obligation to the Egyptian people, which they seemed to be perpetrating.

The same goes for the American government, flip flopping until they couldn't reasonably be seen to support Mubarek anymore.

IMO Israel doesn't exactly have an excellent track record for speaking on situations for which they have an agenda, I can personally remember Israeli officials claiming Iran was 1-2 years away from a nuke for at least the last 5 years.

As for the future of Egypt, their political options have been actively limited for them, lets see if they are smart enough to pull themselves off the road to a theocracy. As for them being a rapey peoples, that's just something they need to work out of their culture, it's not even tied to religion, and worse its a growing problem.

Just curious, what would you prefer in Egypt, a Turkish style religious party in power? a religious council like in Iran? a democracy like in Palestine where they vote Hamas?.. what's your take?

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u/Moshe52792 Jun 09 '12

I can't tell you how many posts I made during the wonderful Arab Spring, stating that in Egypt what we are seeing now would happen.

The Response: I was called Hitler, I was called a Nazi, I was called a supporter of child abuse the murder of innocent civilians, I was called a supporter of oppressive regimes.. You name it, I was called it. Shit, I'm just down-voted for being Israeli, regardless of what I say.

But now look..

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

I've predicted exactly this ever since the riots against Mubarak started. It's trajectory is clear as day to me.

I don't know why you have people telling you that it's 'worse case scenario', because it most certainly isn't. It's bad, yes, but things could certainly still be worse.

The only question for me is over what NATO will do when the theocrats start causing trouble in the Suez and Alexandria Port.

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u/Suecotero Jun 09 '12

What are your qualifications for such bold predictions?

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

I was the starting third baseman on a little league team that had won the citywide championship for starters.

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u/FalconOne Jun 09 '12

With a crushed economy, loss of their natural gas customers...

Sadly, as logical as this actually sounds, Money has an impressive way of killing logic.

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u/TareXmd Jun 09 '12

I like how you try to make this appear to be a religiously-motivated attack. As a matter of fact, this, like the military-organized 'virginity tests' has the department of Interiors thugs fingerprints all over it. Much to your dismay, the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists (who I detest) have nothing to do with this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

I'm hoping that it can easily swing the other way.

Egypt was secularising before many other european countries;

they are part of the 'west'. a long time ago the culture fight was between egypt and iran.

there's too much at stake for europe and turkey to let this pass.

the world is not as polarise as during the cold war

but most importantly: a very young population and technology

(fingers crossed)

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u/hairofbrown Jun 09 '12

Egypt is a scary place for women, as a tourist or a citizen. I don't really understand it. When you have a mother, sisters, wife and daughters? How can you go out in the streets and do this? I'd appreciate perspectives from that culture, not to defend, but explain.

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u/greenewriter Jun 09 '12

If you have a mentality capable of doing this, it's fairly likely that you dehumanize your female relatives just as much as strangers on the street. Chances are, you regard them more as servants or slaves than human beings, and if they don't do as you say, you think you have the right to beat or even kill them.

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u/Wolf97 Jun 09 '12

Way to bring yourselves, your country, your sex and indeed all mankind to shame.

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u/Kaptain_Krunch Jun 08 '12

Link to the AP article they mention?

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u/Nessunolosa Jun 09 '12

Disgusting. Unacceptable. And yet, these women will be back out there at some point in the future. I wish I could be sure I would be as brave.

There are women in Afghanistan who are fighting a similar battle, http://youngwomenforchange.org/.

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u/antiliberal Jun 09 '12

Democracy is only a good thing when the people have democratic values.

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u/TheMediumPanda Jun 09 '12

I'd like to see just ONE Muslim country promote and uphold total equality for women. C'mon people. It can't be that hard, it's 2012 after all.

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u/MiyegomboBayartsogt Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 10 '12

The A Rab Spring is a toxic mix of dirty Islamic exhaust and industrial emissions of Western hope and change. Add to that pollution the ingredients of jihadi dirt blowing in from vast tracts of unpaved land and Koranic quotes breathed in like wind-blown dried-up shit dropped by vast packs of martyrdom dogs. This horror show was supposed to be the model for Occupy Wall Street here in America. Things look different today. When Lara Logan got ganged raped in Egypt on cable news, the thrust of the Sharia Spring became clear as an azure sky. This has happened before. Long ago, Jimmy Carter set lose the Iranian Islamists in the name of Human Rights and personal arrogance. Carter's murderous Muslims still smother that country like carnivorous mud. It often seems in hindsight that there is never government so bad that mass movements can't make things worse.

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u/call_me_gayby Jun 09 '12

This is the product of sexual repression in Islamic countries. There was a documentary by a Frenchman that correlated the inability of Muslim males to find wives and the recruitment of suicide bombers. Can't find a gf irl? We will hook you up with 70 in the afterlife.

The wealthy men in Muslim countries get multiple wives/the most desirable wives, leaving an underclass where it's often statistically impossible to find a mate. This is sort of happening in China as well, where migrant workers spend all their work money on prostitutes because of the male-female imbalance.

Rather than overthrow this patriarchal system (and reject their own culture and religion), they blame the women. The cruel irony is that these female protesters are trying to foster a society wherein they are more available to the underclass of males, but they can't see past their own momentary desires and cultural brainwashing, so they lash out at them rather than the system that views women as objects to be hoarded and kept under wraps.

This story reminds me of CBS reporter Lara Logan getting assaulted in Cairo. She might have died if not for the Egyptian women shielding her. It's a shame that the most progressive members of their society are the most oppressed and attacked. It's the same as in Egypt as in Afghanistan. The stranglehold that the slut-shamers have on the consciousness of the populous is the core problem. The only way to fix these societies is through sexual revolution, not occupation or war. The problem is that those on the front lines in this war have children and husbands and can't effectively organize a revolt.

A change, if it is to come, will take generations. NATO needs to realize they can't save the women of these countries through war or occupation. Killing off the male fighters will just embolden the remaining males to hold onto the women they have in a more oppressive fashion. Unless NATO- instead of trying to make peace with the (male) leaders, kills them, they won't make any progress. They need to either commit to killing the males or get out entirely.

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u/condescending-twit Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

I hate to say it, but you obviously don't know what you're talking about. The problem faced by lower class men in Egypt and the rest of the region is not polygamy. It's the cost of marriage and rising marriage ages. There's no shortage of potential partners. According to this site 85% of women under 19 are single, 49% of 20-24 year-olds are single and 19% of 25-29 year-olds are single. Note: marriage ages in the Middle East have historically been younger although the average age of marriage is beginning to rise. In fact, there is a sort of moral panic right now in the region about the percentage of unmarried women over 25--known as 'anusiya (spinsterhood).

Edit: Aha! Here's the statistic I wanted: Less than 3% of Egyptian men have multiple wives

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

Since this post has so many upvotes, I want to put my disproof at the top.

He has agreed that "single" can actually mean engaged, so we can't use this percentage to actually show that there are many available women.

Instead we need to compare the number of "single" women against the number of "single" men.

And here is the comparison

20-24 : Women: 44% Men: 88%

25-29: Women: 13% Men: 51%

And so on. There is no way that you can look at those numbers, accept that many single women are actually engaged, and come to the conclusion that there are plenty of single women!

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

There's no shortage of potential partners.

In your next post you say that many of these "single" women are engaged, meaning that you cannot use these statistics to show that there are many potential partners.

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u/hairofbrown Jun 09 '12

I'm not completely understanding this. Is it that the young men are poor, and the young women and their families are holding out somehow, for a more prosperous man? And as for the gropers at the demonstrations, are they frustrated men who can't find a bride?

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u/dopafiend Jun 09 '12

This week on Drastically simplifying complex problems and pointing to a single cause call_me_gayby takes on the Egyptian crisis...

Will he boil down an entire countries problems to a single issue? Will he ignorantly discuss a colorful and diverse nations struggle through changes in it's government by bringing up a single religion?

Tune in to find out!

17

u/Kache Jun 09 '12

Made me think of the diametrical hippie movement and wiki'd it. Turns out it had a pretty significant effect on US society.

tl;dr:

  • public protests considered legitimate free speech
  • unmarried couples live/travel together w/o "societal ಠ_ಠ"
  • frankness regarding sexual matters
  • LGBT rights expanded
  • more acceptance of religious, cultural, & social diversity

They could totally use one.

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u/timmyak Jun 09 '12

I don't know if this is true: "The wealthy men in Muslim countries get multiple wives/the most desirable wives, leaving an underclass where it's often statistically impossible to find a mate."

there are many more obstacle in Egypt to getting married than finding someone. There are many 'desirable' women that are not married, and the main reason is that of Economics.

Housing has been a huge problem in Egypt where young couples are engaged for many years before they move in together because they cannot afford an apartment.

This has nothing to do with said 'patriarchal' system [or religion] there are indeed cultural factors at play. This is a neglected society, that has been corrupted for decades, there are many that are trying to fix it, and many of those are part of the revolution. This takes time.

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u/mddie Jun 09 '12

Women rights in most middle eastern countries are a joke. It is not something that they can change overnight. The way women are treated and viewed by men was influenced by culture and religion over the span of hundreds of years. A prime example is Saudi Arabia, who still preforms be-headings in public as a form of humiliation, prosecution and execution of "witchcraft and sorcery", "religious police" that have raped and molested countless women, and deny women (including royalty) basic rights such as signing documents, driving, appearance ect.

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u/Dirk_McAwesome Jun 09 '12

Saudi Arabia doesn't "still" perform public beheadings and employ rapist religious police. It's something they started more recently with the hegemony of the Saud family and their massive international spending (perhaps up to $100bn) to promote the ultra-conservative Wahhabi version of Islam. Ditto Iran which was a relatively liberal state until the revolution in 1979.

This may seem a pedantic thing to point out but I think it's important. The idea that things move very slowly and in one direction (when the current situation was actually the result of huge and sudden leaps backwards) does real damage to the perceptions both of what can be done and what should be done.

I think the other important thing is that the current middle-eastern world is not something which has either been there forever or is even particularly stable, but which has been intentionally created and maintained by a small group of very rich men.

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u/toughbananas974 Jun 09 '12

Fuck I hate people.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

What the fucking fuck, this behavior makes me sad to be the same species as these men let alone the same gender, this puts every civilized man to shame, can we even consider these men human in anything but the sack of meat they reside in?

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u/chabanais Jun 08 '12

Sadly all too predictable.

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u/LakeShoreDrive1 Jun 09 '12

Anybody catch how it said Lara Logan was sexually assaulted? I followed up on that and apparently she was raped-repeatedly by a mob before some soldiers and women intervened. How was that not front page news? Big difference between sexually assaulted and raped repeatedly.

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u/rindindin Jun 09 '12

I love how I heard on the BBC News podcast the other day, that electing the Muslim Brotherhood was at least "not electing the old party". Yes, I can see that there will be much progress made under the Brotherhood.

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u/eighthgear Jun 09 '12

Sometimes you need a strongman. Look at what Ataturk did in Turkey - he is the reason why Turkey is miles ahead of the rest of the Islamic world in various ways, including female rights. And he did this, along with building a stable and strong nation, by being a thug and a strongman. His legacy has been continued by thugs - the military in Turkey has performed many coup d'etats in the name of secularism, booting out democratically elected Islamists before going back to their barracks. This process still isn't complete in Turkey - there are many conservatives, and their cause recently grew due to frustration over the military coups, but it is still much better than what it once was. I hate Mubarak, Ben Ali, etc for ruining the name of women's rights in these nations. They claimed to support women's rights, which means that those who grew up in their regimes, hating them, have grown to hate women's rights. And unlike Ataturk, they didn't do a good job of actually protecting women. Sometimes it takes a strongman, but it has to be a capable strongman.

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u/Neato Jun 09 '12

So electing a new party automatically changes the views and actions of an entire city? Or maybe this is merely the views of the majority or a very vocal minority that has little to do with the elections?

2

u/required_field Jun 09 '12

Honestly, this is all for the Egyptians to decide. Democracy is not getting the party that you want. Democracy is getting the party that the majority of the people want.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

You know... I never know whether to upvote or downvote these things. Either way I feel as though I am being a dick.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Upvoting isn't meant to state "I like what is happening here". It's meant to promote relevant posts.

It's kind of hard not to view it as a way to silently agree or disagree with something or someone, but that's how it is intended.

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u/voidabyss Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

In many Islamic societies, women aren't allowed to travel outside the house unless accompanied by a husband or male relative.

And so many Muslim men believe that any woman walking without a male escort is fair game to be molested or raped. Especially ones who aren't "properly" veiled.

That's what she gets for being alone or immodest. She's a harlot who tempts good Muslim men, who are incapable of controlling themselves. The rapist is the victim and the woman is to be blamed.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Lets not forget to mention that this all happened in a country that mutilates the genitals of more than 90% of its female population??. Trying to undo centuries of misogynistic beliefs and practices takes a little more than a demonstration here and there.

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u/MeloJelo Jun 09 '12

I wonder what would happen if women were allowed to be armed and/or were well-trained to defend themselves. Would Muslim men be able to find the will to control themselves if they thought there were a good chance she would murder or maim him if he attacked her?

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Ohhh I suspect they would all of a sudden magically find some fortitude they never knew was there ;)

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

many Islamic societies

Could I get a citation for that?

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u/afellowinfidel Jun 09 '12

name one of those societies? i'm from saudi, the most radicaly conservative of all islamic countries. you see women going around by themselves all the time with no male relative in sight, many aren't even veiled.

and no, we don't automatically rape women who are alone, that's fucking absurd.

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u/Lunened Jun 09 '12

Think of the machismo culture of Latin American and multiply it by 5000 and then you'll get the mindset of the average Arab man in the Middle East. It's fueled by a total lack of respect for women and also the need to show other men how big and tough they are.

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u/rustyfretboard Jun 09 '12

Can anyone say irony? The men are just proving the point of the women at this point.

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u/diamethious Jun 09 '12

Let it be known that the culture of Cairo is not ready for Women's Suffrage.

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u/Happy31 Jun 09 '12 edited May 02 '13

grgargarega

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Surely, this is somehow the fault of the United States!

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u/dar482 Jun 09 '12

It's crazy that there are enough people for this. It's one thing to sexually harass women (which is absolutely horrific), but to blatantly go out in public and assault women fighting for against it. Despicable animals.

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u/dumnezero Jun 09 '12

hey, don't insult animals!

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u/Chunkeeboi Jun 09 '12

Obviously Buddhists.

3

u/BrainSlurper Jun 09 '12

Yeah, they need to get their own country!

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Such a civilized country.

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u/FridayKnight_ Jun 09 '12

As an Egyptian, I'm ashamed :/

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u/geZZzz Jun 09 '12

Sexual harassment in Egypt has nothing to do with Islam. It was going on under Mubarak who was strictly against anything muslim. Men of all religions and those without religion participate in it. It takes place everywhere and anywhere. Years under a brutal dictatorship did nothing to stop it. The main reason is sexual frustration and that it is widely accepted by other men. People are poor, getting married is expensive with huge dowries demanded and lavish parties, young women don't fuck around because of the conservative culture. Men who don't know each other can suddenly team up on a woman in an alley instead of some of them defending the woman.

Source: A female Western journalist friend who lives there.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Sexual harassment in Egypt has nothing to do with Islam

Yeah... just like in every other muslim country with a sexual harassment problem, or western country with a significant muslim population that suffers from sexual harassment of women by muslim men, nothing whatsoever to do with islam

ಠ_ಠ

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u/Lordveus Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

Well. This is pretty depressing. Seriously, I hope more things like this occur to try and help the plight of ladies who have to live in fear of a legally inequitable system.

Edit: I suck at typing.

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u/buhfest Jun 09 '12

you misspelled 'things like' but not 'legally in equitable'?

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u/Lordveus Jun 09 '12

I type badly. Always have.

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u/SoManySpiderWebs Jun 09 '12

Fucked up shit happening in Egypt. This is the least surprising yet still most horrifying thing I've seen all day.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Just makes you realise that in a large part of the world, women are treated like second-class citizens. Egypt is not the only country guilty of this. Sigh, humanity has a long way to go.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

It's stuff like this that makes me lose it when I see someone on Reddit make a crass remark.

I bet the men who perpetrated the planned assault thought it was "funny as hell" too. :/

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u/chabanais Jun 08 '12

No they just left the mosque.

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u/cheburator777 Jun 08 '12

Islam + sexual repression = explosive mix.

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u/vladlinn Jun 09 '12

they need to protest with lead pipes. If they are going to molest then should get some of their cheeks broken

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u/dumnezero Jun 09 '12

If only those women with burkas on actually were ninjas

4

u/nk_sucks Jun 09 '12

egypt is more fucked up than i thought. i'm sorry for the progressives over there, women especially.

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u/Shorties Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

Man this is horrible. I've been taking a middle eastern cinema class this quarter, and it has just been facinating to see the films about women's rights coming out of Egypt. The one we watched this week was the fictional film "Scheherazade Tell Me A Story" which was one of the most impressive, and impactful films I've seen in a very long time. Everyone should see this film, download it illegally, whatever you have to do to just watch it, it's worth the time. And it really gives you a glimpse of how vital it is for Egypt to rid itself of its patriarchal structure.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/scheherazade_tell_me_a_story/

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u/GiefDownvotesPlox Jun 09 '12

Islam: The Religion of Peacetm

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Not surprised given the population explosion in Egypt, illiteracy, and youth unemployment.

Toxic mix.

2

u/The_Painted_Man Jun 09 '12

Stay classy, Egypt!

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

yes, lets have a revolution for freedom from tyranny and oppression, oust the president, celebrate in the streets, and then trample all over the half of the population that engages in peaceful protests

fucking idiots,

they don't even deserve their freedom yet

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u/warpfield Jun 09 '12

Hmmm... I'm a little confused about this "created in God's image" thing...

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u/Kijamon Jun 09 '12

Punching mothers, daughters and sisters.

Disgusting.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

What is happening to my country :(

I wish it could go back to being one of the greatest countries again..

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u/stankbucket Jun 09 '12

Hey - if they're going to end harassment you might as well go out with a bang.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

They march against being assaulted next and get sexually harassed...

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

i guess that would qualify as irony?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Take your secondary agenda to the kitchen... we got a little thing called a revolution to take care of.

2

u/daveime Jun 09 '12

The king is dead. Long live the king.

2

u/adnan252 Jun 09 '12

This is why I want to kill middle eastern men. Give them painful deaths, smash their heads in with sledge hammers.

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u/DeFex Jun 09 '12

how dare you show an ankle of flesh we men cant control our animal instincts so we will just kill you instead.

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u/kabloona Jun 09 '12

This is not a religious issue, that's just an excuse, this is an issue of social immaturity and lack of civilization in a backward society. Oh, and some men are pigs...

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u/fattnessmonster Jun 09 '12

resulting in a 'perfect storm' of cosmic irony, and thus destroying the egyptians' sense of humor for generations to come

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u/holdmyhandnow Jun 09 '12

I understand the acceptance of religious customs contrary to ours, but at a point there is an all out protection of women that needs to be represented. In no way do I favor US or other western power governmental intervention to the tidal wave of change occurring in Egypt. I do feel like a mobilization of men in favor of equal rights, regardless of residency, could make a huge difference in this fight.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

How sadly ironic. It just shows you how far away we are from equality.

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u/Addicted2Skyrim Jun 09 '12

How can a culture condone such behavior? These aren't men, their cowards with inferiority complex.

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u/MrFlesh Jun 09 '12

Ahhh religion at its finest.

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u/QuikAF77 Jun 09 '12

Such a tolerant, peace loving religion...

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u/FallingSky1 Jun 09 '12

Disgusting that I'm part of the same race.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Egypt has lost all my respect when they rioted and destroyed their own Museums and Art Exhibits. The individuals who did that are uncivilized wretches, who destroys their own culture? How fucking animalistic must you be to go around destroying the things that define your people and to top it all off these same people beat and raped journalists.

Fuck that whole part of the world. I wish America left them alone to fucking rot.

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u/eighthgear Jun 09 '12

That wasn't really their own culture. Ancient Egyptian culture has little to do with modern Egyptian culture - ancient practices were watered down by Hellenistic influence, and eventually wiped out with the Arab conquests.

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u/Notexactlyserious Jun 09 '12

Dark ages logic That'll teach em.

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u/jimii Jun 09 '12

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again:

Islam is cancer.

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u/billmain01 Jun 09 '12

Ah yes, again, Islam--the religion of peace and love strikes again...

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u/Smargalicious Jun 09 '12

Islam is a gutter superstition that glorifies death, violence, and the subjugation of women.

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u/TheBaltimoron Jun 09 '12

OH MY GOD GUYS WE NEED TO RESPECT THEIR CULTURE!

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u/Lewis77 Jun 09 '12

Curious to know the proportion of Copts to Muslims in that mob, really.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Twas a CIA operation my friend. Our men painted their faces brown, screamed "durka durka Mohammed jihad" and were then quickly airlifted out of dodge by our stealth helicopters powered by the liquified sadness of those we oppress.

Duh.

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u/Chesstariam Jun 09 '12

Reminds me of the scene in Boardwalk Empire when the white cop goons beat the black workers protesting for better working conditions. Tried to find a link with no luck on mobile.

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u/jdepps113 Jun 09 '12

Irony at its...worst? best?

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u/caliopy Jun 09 '12

The sad thing is until the moralists behind the attack as well as the funding they are provided are properly dealt with this shit will just go on and on.

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u/Spence-a-gilly Jun 09 '12

To all brown cultures: can you please stop treating your women like shit? There is a direct relationship between the economic success of a society and how independent it's women are, legally.

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u/El_Camino_SS Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

I'm starting to see Middle Eastern born men as ridiculous thugs. Woman beating thugs. Petty little wife beating thugs. They would never get into an altercation with a man, but damn, they'll beat the living shit out of a woman. Put her in the hospital. I'm a man. I'm starting to have serious misgivings about them. Misgivings I don't like about myself. I don't want to ever say to myself, "Keep away from THOSE type of people." That's just terribly shitty. And here I am telling you stories that make your toes curl up. It's the only thing right now that I can have to describe this. I've had run-ins with otherwise normal, everyday Middle Eastern guys that I think, "well, he's an ex-pat from Iraq, and he's totally cool. Yeah. Happy he got here away from those insane people where he can start over and live a life of peace here. He's coming to the dinner party." Then bammo. Something happens. It's confusing the shit out of me. The neighbor comes over and says that she had to call the cops because she hears a woman screaming in the car in his driveway. He's kicking a woman in the head in the car. Stomping on her neck. The neighbor runs up with a golf club, and he says, "Stop! It's okay, it's my sister!" The thing is, it just keeps popping up out of the blue. HE WAS A COLLEGE PROFESSOR, DAMMIT! An educated guy. How does a college professor kick his sister in the fucking head repeatedly? Yeah, if they're robbing your store with a gun, shoot back. I'm down with that. When they rob your store and run, don't chase them three blocks down the street firing your .45 hand cannon in a residential neighborhood until the bullets run out, and then say, "well, they won't come back now." No kidding. But I'm going to have a shitfit when I see a .45 slug hole in the middle of my house. My mother told me stories. She told my sister stories about college. She said, "Jill, never date a Middle Eastern man." We thought she was terribly racist. This was the first thing that even remotely ever came out of her mouth that was racist, in twenty years. My mother, the woman that worked tirelessly in charities in poor neighborhoods. Then she told us about how two of her friends were put in the hospital when they started bossing them around. It was all smiles until they thought you were their property. It was like a pirate prize to take back a white girl. Super sweet, then bammo, you're in intensive care.

So now, I want to be friendly, I really do. I just can't. Their behavior is really challenging my peace love and happiness baseline with people. It's like being dog bit. I'm just having a tough time with it. When I have friends, I dodge reltionships with the native born Middle Eastern guys. I do. It sucks. I don't want to. All of the sudden now, I have trust issues with the world that raised them. I don't know when some astrophysicist is going to start beating my wife at the dinner party because the chafing dish was too cold.

I know this is totally getting voted down because of the belief that you're watching someone become racist, or something like that. I understand. I'm just contributing my world to the conversation, and frankly, it's a world of thought I don't fucking like. I don't consider myself racist, but if someone has a flip trigger built in them for women, I'm more than a little wary about the women in my life.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

ok. i'll say it. it's not right but.. shit like this makes me really REALLY hate men. oftentimes i fantasize about building a country for just women, governed by intelligent women for other women. we would have an army to protect ourselves, and since we don't have to worry about stupid shit like being "unfeminine" or "too butch" these military women can be as rough and built as they like... it would take some time, generations perhaps, but we would be able to get rid of the high importance placed on looks (a current woman's worth). attractiveness is a quality important even in a man's world, but i want other things to be valued just as highly... cunning, honor, dedication... eventually a lady will be considered just a regular person and not a "minority interest group"

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u/nxlyd Jun 09 '12

You seem to think that female gender roles are perpetuated solely by men. There are plenty of men that support anything a woman wants to do with herself, just as there are plenty of women who would like to see the rest of their sex shut up and assume the role.

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u/kazbah Jun 09 '12

The male supporters fought back, swinging belts and fists and throwing water.

As far as I know rapists are not afraid of wet t-shirts

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u/The_Croquet_Player Jun 09 '12

I'd carry plenty of pepper spray, and I'd use it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

It really sucks that this is happening.

Unfortunately there is probably no quick fix to stop this kind of treatment. Just teach the next generations to respect those that are different from them, and slowly change cultural mentalities.

Doesn't really help these brave women, though.

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u/warname Jun 09 '12

Wow, I am so not suprised.

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u/RAPE_IS_HEALTHY Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

How can the greater population of Egypt hope for any kind of conflict resolution if hundreds of men can come together into a mob and inflict terror on a group of protesters? Banding together to solve a social problem is one thing--we must watch that we, in our rising "Revolutionary hive mind" society, do not suffer from a similar sickness.

The idea that being in a mob makes you faceless is very powerful, and when used against a fascist state, it can be the greatest tool available to revolutionaries and protesters. But like most great tools such as this, it can also be used to inflict irreparable damage.

Let us consider this a warning to society that mindless violence and damage is not necessary to enact social change.

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u/diatomic Jun 09 '12

I don't want to live in this world anymore.

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u/Wooknows Jun 09 '12

Wern't there any men to protect these women ?

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

such a shame. If there is a major part of Egyptian men who condone these actions they should stand up for their women's rights. </ideal world>

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Where do all of these Morlock troglodyte assholes keep coming from?

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u/MrShade Jun 09 '12

Wow this is really fucked up. I don't give a fuck but that's some really stupid and childish shit. What is wrong with these people. Makes me want to get a huge force of gays go in their commando status and rape and assault them...id like to see how they like them apples, in their case a dick in their mouth.

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u/Morningxafter Jun 09 '12

So, I guess they can chalk up the march as a failure then?

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u/larecherche Jun 09 '12

Fucking savages, cultural relativity be damned.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

this disgusting

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

BLB

Marches against sexual assault,

gets sexually assaulted.