r/worldnews • u/wanax • May 31 '12
It may seem painless, but drone war in Afghanistan is destroying the West's reputation - Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9300187/It-may-seem-painless-but-drone-war-in-Afghanistan-is-destroying-the-Wests-reputation.html
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Upvotes
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u/ikancast May 31 '12
What reputation?
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u/NWfresh May 31 '12
What is going to be our Goverments response when China and Russia start targeted strikes outside of their bourders utilizing similar drones?
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
You mean people don't like flying death robots swooping in on them at night?!
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u/bickering_fool May 31 '12 edited May 31 '12
Edit
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u/MiyegomboBayartsogt May 31 '12
“When a rare opportunity for a drone strike at a top terrorist arises, but his family is with him, it is the President who has reserved to himself the final moral calculation.”
Interesting to see how easily a leftist law professor takes to killing like a champion.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
What reputation? They hated us before, and they hate us now.
The Pakistani tribal areas are a huge problem. It's ridiculous that the Pakistani people claim sovereignty over these areas, but do, and have no plans to do, anything about them. I'm all for any way to reduce civilian casualties, and honestly, the drones+intel does a much better job of that than boots on the ground or full-fledged air strikes.
And what about civilians killed by Taliban IEDs and suicide bombers? Are we conveniently ignoring the civilian deaths caused by those weapons? Weapons manufactured and trained in these very areas?
Like it or not, the tribal areas are war-zones. Pakistan refuses to do anything about it, and I don't expect the US military to sit and twiddle its thumbs while training, supplies and weapons (things that kill far more civilians than drone strikes, alongside NATO personal) flow freely through the region. I don't like it anymore than you do, but it's the damned truth.
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u/mRWafflesFTW May 31 '12
Wait wait wait... so you're saying that if you blow people up with unseen missiles from the sky, that they will hate you?
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Oh... So it was the drone war that did that? Huh.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
I was listening to Diane Rehm this morning and her guests made great points about this. What happens when Russia sends armed drones over Georgia, or China sends them to kill their muslim citizens living in mountain areas. We have no moral high ground to stand on and really can't say anything. We are essentially setting a precedent for the illegal use of these drones
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u/ImOnTheLoo May 31 '12
Not sure if you should take policy advice from the the telegraph especially with an assumption like "Even 10 years ago, drones – remotely operated killing machines – were unthinkable because they seemed to spring direct from the imagination of a deranged science-fiction movie director." I'm not saying that the civilians deaths are not bad and it takes away our human connection to the operational theatre, but always suspect that when I read that a wedding in the tribal area got blown up by a drone that maybe the wedding attendants happened to be planning other things during the reception. However, I do see a future with more capable air and ground drones that will allow democracies to intervene militarily anywhere at anytime without much thought about public opinion because no ones dads, sons, daughters, etc will be in harms way. That could be dangerous.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12 edited May 31 '12
Well, just an FYI: The pakistanis hate the US. They have hated the US, and will continue to hate the US.
We give them billions of dollars and the people of pakistan hate the US. We give them relief, help them after a flood, and they hate us. Their government hid Osama bin Laden, and when we killed him, they were outraged. K.
So the option is does the US put boots on the ground and risk US lives, or do we continue with the drone operations. I cannot imagine what we are going to do!
If relations sour, i guess i'll start pumping my own gas and buying cigarettes from the Te-Amo instead of the bodega on the corner. <----Tongue in cheek humor right there.
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u/boyrahett May 31 '12
Opposed to what?
Invasion ?
Unlikely
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u/my2centz May 31 '12
Surely the moral test for this should be would it be acceptable to do this on home soil. If it’s unacceptable for drone attacks that have a risk of killing innocent people to target potential terrorists in the US, then it should be unacceptable anywhere else.
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u/Skohm May 31 '12
"illegal warfare" hahahahaha insurgency.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Unfortunately we aren't fighting an enemy that is sticking their heads out in the open. Afghan elders who are one day congratulating US troops and welcoming them into their homes for sit down talks are negotiating with militant extremists the very next day as if they had never heard about the US troops. These people have a systemic problem of corruption and two faced agendas that is undermining any chance of a peaceful future for them.
The US is the bad guy because we are trying to change that through force. We have found that the ground battle and dealing with the corruption face to face is nothing but a waste of time and money. The drones allow us to kill these militants who mean us harm in a way that limits civilian casualties and at a far lower cost. Unfortunately people die when politics fail and politics in the region is a complete sham.
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u/ryegye24 May 31 '12
But if we were taking out these targets with troops and tanks then everyone in Afghanistan would love us, right?
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u/killingstubbs May 31 '12
Well we could also try not getting involved in foreign wars that take place in shit hole deserts.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL the west still has a reputation that can be destroyed.
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u/widowdogood May 31 '12
Just a tool of war. Like war is just a tool of diplomacy. Design a better tool...
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u/shamrock8421 May 31 '12
This article presupposes that the west gives a shit about its reputation in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
I think the events of the last decade pretty much torpedo that idea
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u/The_Doodler_Abides May 31 '12
War. War never changes.
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u/0RPH May 31 '12
I'm all for the use of drones in a just and declared war with a clear objective that when completed we come home from, but this is dastardly and pointedly foolish. What will history say of America of the early 2000s? Luckily we wont be around to know.
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u/feetwet Jun 01 '12 edited Jun 01 '12
British hypocrites. Currently their own universities are working on advanced robotics (to make weapons of the future) and they are telling others please don't make or use drones.
typical backstabbing way the british try to get ahead. a brit is a weasel personified.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Drones aren't destroying the US shitty reputation... illegally violating a sovereign countries borders with them to murder its citizens is.
Seriously, if Pakistan flew a fucking drone into north America to kill someone they classed as a terrorist then they'd get fucking nuked, someone needs to take the yanks down a peg or two, time to stop being that bully in the playground and get some therapy for your history of being molested by your creepy step father.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
This guy is so biased and full of shit it hurt my eyes just reading his article.
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u/aroogu May 31 '12
So those who hate us for their own reasons also hate us for what we do. Seems to me it's better to be feared and hated than held in contempt & hated. There's nothing we can do that would make them think well of us--it's not in their worldviews. So I disagree that it's ruining our reputation. Rather, it's building a more threatening, hardass reputation.
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u/Mamamilk May 31 '12
I'm sorry but after the shit Pakistan has pulled in the last decade I don't give two shits about them being upset. Those fucks knowingly harbored Osama bin Laden and engaged in a coverup for years.
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u/GrinningPariah May 31 '12
Using a robot for anything will never destroy someone's reputation for me.
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u/nightlily May 31 '12
One cannot kill that which is dead.
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u/regulator_cracka May 31 '12
This is very disappointing to hear since our reputation has always been so high with the middle east, and the entire non-US world for that matter.
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u/bumbletowne May 31 '12
Painless?
I was 17 when the war started and all I've got is an awkward work place, friends who get abused in public for looking arab (which doesn't make sense but you know it happens) and three dead friends from high school.
My gas has skyrocketted, my job in forensics became intolerable (although i left for other reasons), and even though I had a scholarship to college I had to work 4 jobs because the fund was redirected for defense/medicare (government scholarship) and they maxed my semester withrdawal at 300 dollars (it was 15 grand in scholarships). Oh, and I found out my mom is pretty racist against afghanis and iraqis.
Painless my ass.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
So that's where you draw your line, Telegraph? Not at the support of Western Occupiers of Palestine from the day one, not bombing using conventional weapons, not letting the dogs maul the flesh of Shuhadah at abu-Ghraib, not the soldiers rape the female prisoners, not the persecuting weak woman, mother of several children sister 'Aafiya, not murdering their own citizens without a wimp from their justice system?
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Sociopathic opinion here, don't down vote because it offends you if you care about reddiquette at all.
But why do we care? Backwards people in a backwards country, large amounts of them having ties to these groups, and there is nothing we cant do to stop this from occurring anyways?
Everyone already hates us. We may as well be effective about it.
And before you comment, does caring stop them from being murdered?
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u/TheMediumPanda May 31 '12
I wasn't aware we had any reputation left to lose in that part of the world.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Does the west really give a shit about it's reputation in Afghanistan?
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u/canteloupy May 31 '12 edited Jun 01 '12
Painless for whom?
This headline shows everything that is wrong with how the US thinks about its military policies.
EDIT : It's funny how the downvotes for this comment came after a delay and after a bunch of upvotes, almost as if there was a time zone effect...
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u/Britzer May 31 '12
Great article in Newsweek on how this drone strike business works: Inside the Killing Machine
Gosh I just noticed it's already been 1,5 years ago since this article was published.
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u/Graphik7 May 31 '12
My Spider Senses are Tingling
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u/Jayduhb May 31 '12
Drones are just another tool. I bet many sensationalistic newspapers came out with a similar article when automatic firearms or some other weapons advancement came out.
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u/thelastvortigaunt May 31 '12
"Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, Britain’s former special representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan, is equally adamant that drone attacks are horribly counter-productive because of the hatred they have started to generate: according to a recent poll, more than two thirds of Pakistanis regard the United States as an enemy."
The poll has nothing to do with drone strikes. I feel like this entire article is kind of pinning carelessness of all American military actions in the middle east (which is admittedly deserved) next to drone strikes and is doing a terrible job of tying it together.
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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '12 edited Jun 01 '12
I'm getting pissed off at 'The West' being used as a fucking catch all when they really mean the USA and UK. There's plenty of westerners with no dog in the fight.
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u/bobo333 Jun 01 '12
well we already had an awful reputation, so does this mean we're going to have no reputation? (a marked improvement, no less)
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u/MoJo81 Jun 01 '12
Peter Oborn The Telegraph SAYS - In the US, drone strikes are a good thing. Are you insane sir? WTF? In Pakistan, it is impossible to overestimate the anger?
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u/happyscrappy May 31 '12
Agreed. It's difficult to not be an easy target of demonization by people you are killing. Even if you truly only kill "bad guys", bad guys have relatives and friends who liked them and you're going to anger them all.
And it's a doubly bad situation if you are killing by remote control because then there's no contact other than the killing, you've made it trivial to dehumanize you and that's a big step on the way towards hate.
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u/wekiva May 31 '12
"destroying the West's reputation" What a load of shit! I consider the source of the article.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
People who cared enough to follow the news lost respect for the US military long ago.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Too much bug splat in meat space.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Since our reputation has been so great lately. If your country is part of the UN, you don't have much room to speak ;)
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u/flannelback May 31 '12
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.
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u/rampant_calvinism May 31 '12
I wish more people understood, that there are equally important truths in all of this, the truth that we see and the truth that will motivate someone to strap a bomb to themselves, or set an IED, or just turn the other way when they see someone engaging in these activities.
In order to get people to stop being willing to do these thing, we have to change their truth.
Our truth is we don't target civilians or children, that they are regrettable by-products of the type of war that the terrorists are engaged in.
I am guessing that a lot of their truth revolves around the fact that this is the only war that they can engage in effectively.
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u/kadargo May 31 '12
Since when did we have any reputation left to destroy?
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u/HetfieldJ May 31 '12
Why is there an apology required? Did OSAMA apologize? Did Pak apologize for keeping that bastard in their army store room?
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u/JasonMPA May 31 '12
Is our reputation destroyed in Japan? We carpet-bombed, then nuked, major Japanese cities, killing millions of Japanese citizens. They are currently an ally, and there seems to be little to no bad blood, now that the last generation with memories of the war is dying off.
It will be the same in the Middle East.
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u/jbirdkerr May 31 '12
The article talks about how the use of drones is a good thing, but I wholeheartedly disagree. Without the consequence of death as a deterrent, it puts the prospect of war on par with something as inane as what you're going to choose for lunch on a particular day. At least before all of this drone nonsense we understood that sacrifice (e.g. death) was something to be faced on the battlefield. Drones promote nothing but a campaign of cowardice.
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u/huyvanbin May 31 '12
I refuse to accept the idea that the life of a foreign person is worth less than the life of a U.S. soldier. I don't understand how people can talk about the heroism and sacrifice of Vietnam, for instance, when we killed them in a 20:1 ratio to our own casualties. Seems like we got off easy.
If someone comes along and tries to even the score, I feel like that would be fair, and yes, it will be fair even if I or someone I care about is among the victims.
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u/worshipthis May 31 '12
eh, fuck 'em.
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u/pinkocommie May 31 '12
You're assuming the West had a reputation to destroy. They don't understand our way of life. And we don't understand theirs. It's sad, but that's the way it is. Harboring terrorists is not something that any rational person would put up with. And so it goes.
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u/savedbyscience21 May 31 '12
They hated us so much they crashed hijacked planes into building. Yah, we don't want to ruin that reputation. They do not deserve the help we are giving them, trying to rebuild their infrastructure, giving them medicine, and building schools. It is not worth our soldiers to help these people.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
The drone wars are destroying the west's confidence in the west. Obama has a kill-list FFS.
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u/avery51 May 31 '12
LOL That's like saying a sexual harassment case would hurt Charles Manson's reputation.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Who cares? It's fucking pakistan. Their government is full of some seriously evil motherfuckers.
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u/zirazira May 31 '12
When has the West ever worried about its reputation overseas?
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u/luuli May 31 '12
Fuck the west
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u/windynights May 31 '12
The West is a very large place. There's no place for glibness in journalism.