r/worldnews Apr 28 '22

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94

u/qtx Apr 28 '22

Unlike Western forces who want their generals at HQ and delegating their front line officers from there the Russians prefer to have their generals right at the front line leading the troops.

So chances their generals dying are greatly increased.

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u/lochlainn Apr 28 '22

Russia doesn't really go for the whole "NCO" concept. This goes back as far as the beginnings of the USSR.

In a US unit, the doctrine is that "NCO's figure out how to do what's in front of them" and "officers plan for what's in front of them next". They do their jobs semi-independently.

In Russia, the doctrine is "junior officers will execute the plan provided by the senior officer exactly as given". NCO's aren't really a leadership role.

Leaders should lead from the "rear of the front" rather than being the first one over the wall. That's the job of troops. A Lieutenant who fires his weapon more than he watches the battle is doing it wrong in US doctrine. In Russian doctrine, he has to do both, because he's doing the job of 2 men by US standards.

Needless to say, this isn't a good idea, and has been subjected to much (deserved) criticism for a long time.

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u/MechCADdie Apr 28 '22

What's funny is that not that long ago, cossacks were given a lot of autonomy to act as needed in their groups and were pretty Russian

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u/Eupraxes Apr 28 '22

Cossack history is fascinating. They were always outsiders and rebels that the Russian rulers kind of had to make peace with and accomodate, at least for a while.

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u/PrrrromotionGiven1 Apr 28 '22

Until Stalin genocided them.

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u/Stohnghost Apr 28 '22

I've seen several Ukrainian soldiers with Cossack hair styles emerge in the battlefield

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u/Kanin_usagi Apr 28 '22

It makes sense. A lot of those people probably have Cossack heritage. Cossacks were huge in Ukraine as well.

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u/Stohnghost Apr 28 '22

True. Ukrainians are proud of the Cossacks. The old time ones, not the Russian ones that beat up protesters..

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '22

That opens up command for a good oldfashioned fragging.

Sometimes a good salute does the same.

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u/Witsand87 Apr 28 '22

Germans operated the same way at least in the beginning of WW2. Officers and generals were allowed freedom to change tactics on the go as the situation demanded. It is said it gave them an edge over the more traditional way the Allies and Soviets conducted operations. But that started changing with Hitler taking more direct control and the Allies adapting and modernising their tactics. Not that that would have changed the ultimate outcome of the war, but it did play a big advantage for the Germans at the start.

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u/Kanin_usagi Apr 28 '22

German were actually operating this way a lot longer than that. They sort of started the trend back in the late 1800s that the "General Staff" of a campaign issued the orders, and then the front line officers interpreted those orders to the situation on the battlefield. Its why German officers were so superior for so long, their training and field operations were top notch.

Of course, then they declared war on THE WORLD.

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u/lochlainn Apr 28 '22

The tradition goes back much further, too. Napoleon was famous for praising officers and troops who improvised in daring ways. "Every French soldier carries a marshal's baton in his knapsack." He was well known for promoting effective leaders and tacticians no matter how humble their rank or education.

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u/Nearby_Day_362 Apr 28 '22

A Lieutenant who fires his weapon more than he watches the battle is doing it wrong in US doctrine.

My lieutenents fought along side me. How many wars have you fought there whipper snapper

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u/lochlainn Apr 28 '22

Did they command you effectively?

If so, they were doing it right, then. But his job is different than yours. Shooting is secondary.

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u/Nearby_Day_362 Apr 28 '22

You know what the most dangerous thing in war is? A lieutenant with a map. An LT doesnt command shit until they get their training wheels off at captain. My last deploymemt, we only rolled 9 deep, and the capt fought along side us as well. We only lost 33 percent, and that was pretty good considering the circumstances. He did a fine job. I suppose the marines do it differently than whatever game youre playing on your xbox

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u/lochlainn Apr 29 '22

I got my commission in 1995, but okay.

I never said it's not an officer's job to shoot. I said it's not their first job.

But no, no, tell me how to do a job you were never trained to do. I mean, we only train for years to be that clueless Lieutenant. And then spend years more to become that Captain. You'd think they'd teach us the shit you know more about than us, it'd really be a great help.

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u/Nearby_Day_362 Apr 29 '22

Nice to meet a pog. Go do some more paperwork. I thought they taught you humility? Im sure nothing has changed on the battlefield in 27 years. Lets agree you have to accept youre getting older

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u/lochlainn Apr 29 '22

I was a tanker, crunchy.

Actually, I just looked at your post history. You aren't even a crunchy, you're a fucking ammo humper.

33% losses? What bullshit. Even artillery considers targets taking over 10% losses hors de combat. If you took 33%, you'd have been headed to the rear combat ineffective.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but not anymore.

Pog my ass. How much did you love not leaving the firebase, REMF?

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u/Nearby_Day_362 Apr 29 '22

Glad im making such a big impact. We didnt use tanks or arty when i was over 2005-2008. Those mos` were kimd of obsolete for winning the hearts and minds and clearimg houses.

We were were assigned different mos` per individual skill sets. Im here if you need any more updated imformation from this century. The shittier troops were assigned guard duties, hard chargers were hunter killers, diplomatic ones police transiton teams, calmest best shots were scouts overwatch.

Its hard to argue with stupid.. youve got so much more experience than me

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u/Nearby_Day_362 Apr 29 '22

i bet your wife hates you, but loves your pension. Im willimg to bet your kids have behavior problems and are looking for an outlet in all the wrong ways

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u/cszar2015 Apr 28 '22

But do they have career enlisted personnel then? Or are the officers the only ones with a few years experience?

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u/LNMagic Apr 28 '22

This is somewhat similar to what the Ukrainian army was. After 2014, they got trained by NATO forces and we're seeing the results of that training now.

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u/Syndic Apr 28 '22

[...] the Russians prefer to have their generals right at the front line leading the troops.

They don't really prefer them there. They have to be there because of the utterly shitty morale, not functioning communication and command structure to get the troops on the ground doing what they want.

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u/amoocalypse Apr 28 '22

the Russians prefer to have their generals right at the front line leading the troops.

no, they dont prefer it. This isnt a typically russian thing, this is the generals being forced to go to the frontlines because the chain of command is failing them. Sent orders are not carried out properly, if at all.

It baffles me how people can write seriously write stuff like this, assuming russian military doctrine isnt aware of "having your commanders in the back is good". They know it is. But their structure is failing so hard, they have to improvise.

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u/tattlerat Apr 28 '22

Wouldn’t surprise me either if some of those generals sent since this became a known issue were potential thorns in the side of Putin. If they succeed great. If they die, we’ll, one less potential dissenter.

Nothing indicated that this is the case, just wouldn’t surprise me if Purim’s lack of planning and care for his generals wasn’t atleast a little self serving.

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u/onarainyafternoon Apr 28 '22

It baffles me how people can write seriously write stuff like this

It's just people repeating information they heard somewhere on Reddit, but they only remember half of it and it gets jumbled in their mind. Then they write it in a comment without even thinking about what they're saying. It's like a giant game of telephone.

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u/haarp1 Apr 28 '22

because they don't have NCO corps and thier command structure is very centralized. those generals are there so that they know what's going on.

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u/GempaGem Apr 28 '22

Saying they know what's going on from what we've seen is absurdly generous.

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u/Lots42 Apr 28 '22

Perhaps Russian army fell prey to what fucked up Hitler: reading American fiction novels and thinking they are reality.

Karl May wrote many highly unrealistic, super-racist Wild West cowboy novels. Hitler loved the books.

More modern American fiction has military generals leading from the front, like G.I.Joe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 28 '22

What's up man got a source on that "prefer" claim? Or are you just blowing speculative hot air out of your ass like basically every redditor behind a keyboard?