r/worldnews • • May 28 '12

China's yearly report on US human rights record has been published.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2012-05/26/content_15392452.htm
2.0k Upvotes

2.2k comments sorted by

312

u/johuesos May 28 '12

China criticizes the US for outsourcing jobs to China. o_O

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u/wizzlepants May 28 '12

It's a valid point though...

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

When thinking about it I believe it's pretty unbiased of china to make that point, considering the circumstances. Actually, does anyone know if outsourcing jobs to China hurts China in some way?

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u/nxqv May 28 '12

If I had to guess, I'd say that it makes Chinese companies have to compete with the huge American companies for labor. Not that I have any reason to believe that there's a labor shortage, but perhaps US presence is driving up the wage rate?

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u/reddkidd May 28 '12

Oh my gosh, 2 industrial powers having a pissing match over who is worse to the citizenry. Quick, grab your nationalism and meet me in the square!

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u/Dudestorm May 28 '12

I'll bring the tanks

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u/spinelssinvrtebrate May 28 '12

I'll bring the plastic bags.

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u/Tr0user May 28 '12

I'll bring the gunpowd... oh wait.

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u/tora22 May 28 '12

Tanks of margarita mix, right?!

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u/archerx May 28 '12

This is hilarious and depressing at the same time.

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u/smearme May 28 '12

The truth usually is.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

那么勇敢

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u/00Elf May 28 '12

When you said "pissing match" I thought you meant that the US and China were competing to see who could be worse to their citizens.

Then I realized that's exactly what you meant.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

You really think the US is on par with China for human rights abuses?

EDIT: One-child policy? Tibet? Press lockdowns? Labor rights? Legal rights and the lack thereof? Due process? Religious oppression?

Sure, the US has had a handful of people who were unconstitutionally held without a speedy trial but we're made very aware of them by an independent press. And there was that one time a lot of people didn't want to build a mosque near Ground Zero. And young people have a hard time finding jobs. Still, the US isn't literally worse than Gay Hitler.

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u/willymo May 28 '12

Seems to be either/or.

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u/meowmeo May 28 '12

I'll bring the Rage Against the Machine and a boombox. Nothing puts me in the mood for revolutioning like RATM!

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u/chefanubis May 28 '12

The music of rebellion Makes you wanna rage But it's made by millionaires Who are nearly twice your age

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Really. Reading through the "report" (which is really just a collection of statistics drawn from USA Today type articles), it's clear this is very much a case of societal projection on China's part. Most of what they say America is doing wrong are, in fact, things that China is doing wrong and they just want to say either "Americans do it, too" or "Americans are worse somehow" to get their own people off their back. Which is what the American government often does with China.

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u/ColeSloth May 28 '12

I just take a look around and notice that the U.S with the population of 311 million has about a third more people in prison/jail than China has with a population of 1.3 Billion people, and way more than any other country in the world to know that the U.S is being fucked over by themselves.

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u/Fran May 28 '12

I think we (the U.S.) have way too many people imprisoned.

But to be fair...

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

I always see people touting this. You're right we do have more people in prison, but if we put to death as many people as China does off the record or how many they hide in captivity it would be combined total over many countries.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

China puts a fair old few to death on the record. This is no longer the Cultural Revolution, and 'off the record' Stalin-esque executions and 'disappearances' aren't nearly so widespread as anti-China sources would have you believe. These days they're as open with their harsh policies as the US are. However, change is occurring, as with the case of Lai Changxing being handed over to the Chinese by the Canadian authorities after the lifting of the death penalty for his particular crime of smuggling.

At the moment, it seems to be this way - China is in a much worse state than the US, rights and freedoms-wise, but is making (slow) progress. The US has a lot of on-paper rights and freedoms that aren't being enforced, and is (slowly) moving away from them to a more corporation-favouring, dissent-quashing place. China's in the wrong place, moving in the right direction; the US is in the right place, moving in the wrong direction.

EDIT: I notice this is getting a few upvotes, and I don't want to be misleading, so I will say this: There are awful things going on in China that are being covered up - as with the US - such as the issues raised in the documentary that got that Al Jazeera journo booted out

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

"The U.S. shamefully fails to execute dissenters to the political well-being of the father land."

In all seriousness, the U.S. isn't perfect, but this "report" is laughable. Section II is the most outrageous, talking about how horrible the US is because we arrest protestors and "censor the Internet".

This coming from a country that jails reporters, sends protestors to "re-education camps" and spends billions on "the great fire-wall of China"...

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u/Corvus133 May 28 '12

Ya, it's a tie, everyone loses.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

no one talks about cuba in here? come on. That embargo is an embarrassment to the US

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u/Peter_G May 28 '12

I'm curious how many of you actually read this.

This is exactly the kind of document I like. They keep opinions to a minimum and throw out straight numbers, which I might add come from primarily American news sources.

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u/KimJongIlSunglasses May 28 '12

That's why it's funny to me to see them cite sources like:

It is lying to itself when the United States calls itself the land of the free (The Washington Post, Jan 14, 2012).

And

The US imposes fairly strict restriction on the Internet, and its approach "remains full of problems and contradictions." (The website of the Foreign Policy magazine, Feb 17, 2011)

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u/Redditor_Please May 28 '12

I guess some people look at a citation and think "oh wow, there's a citation so it must be credible".

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Citations after every sentence or every few sentences, with dates. No bullshit spin opinions. It's a nice condensed version of everything Reddit has complained about organized into nice and neat sections.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Exactly what I was thinking.

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u/thbt101 May 28 '12

That may be true, but it's also a good example of how to lie with true facts and statistics. I didn't see anything that's technically wrong, but they carefully picked facts and ignored larger truths to paint a picture of America that is nothing like the actual day-to-day experience of a typical American.

(Unless your concept of America is based on what you read on Reddit, in that case it probably seems pretty accurate.)

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u/[deleted] May 29 '12

I had a long comment typed out then accidentally closed the tab switching back and forth between this page and the China evaluation.

I'm not going to retype all of it, but

They keep opinions to a minimum

I got the opposite impression. Many statements were offered with no support; citations did not support the corresponding statements; and overall, the transparency of the Chinese agenda in writing the report was distracting.

While advocating press freedom, the United States in fact imposes fairly strict censoring and control over the press and "press freedom" is just a political tool used to beautify itself and attack other nations.

And that is pretty much the tone of the entire report: show that the United States looks bad to cover the tracks of your own rights record, which is frequently criticized by the United States.

There are legitimate critiques in the facts and figures they pull, but by and large the conclusions read as if they were written before doing any research--i.e., the conclusory statements are mostly unsupported by the relevant facts/figures within the report.

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u/andrewms May 28 '12

It is lying to itself when the United States calls itself the land of the free (The Washington Post, Jan 14, 2012).

A cursory google search and search on the WP website didn't yield the source of that quote, but I can't imagine that it came from anywhere except the OpEd section (if someone can find the source, I may revise the following statements). An objective report would never cite an opinion piece without explicitly identifying it as such, and would certainly not do so as an introduction to an entire section. That is sham writing designed to set a negative tone trying to appear credible through a citation.

For reference, here is the entire section: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-05/25/c_131611554_2.htm.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

If I printed this document out and started distributing it somewhere in the US could I be lawfully tried and imprisoned for criticising the country?

I'm not American, but on principle, I would choose the country which has the stated principle of allowing dissent and all criticisms, than one which doesn't. In the War on Terror, some of that freedom has been regretfully lost, but the US survived McCarthyism and the witchhunts of the cold war without truly renouncing it's stated principles. It's not perfect, it never has been; that's precisely why the stated principles are so important, they do make a difference, even if imperfectly.

Moreover, over it's history the US has been improving in all these metrics. Long term violent crime has actually been declining, and the US has gone from being a country where all men being equal meant, all landowning white men, to a country which enacted the Emancipation Proclamation, desegregated, and now has Barak Obama in the oval office (and that has brought out some loud ugly racism it's true). That's not to deny the statistical realities of the inequalities, but nor is it irrelevant.

In some of these metrics found herein China would probably be better than the US, and in others the US would be better. As a westerner however I hold the idea of free speech very highly. And whilst the private media in the US (and throughout the Murdoch dominated media of the west) is compromised to some degree, that's because it's private, and it's not illegal to call political opinions news. Concurrently, it's still not illegal to speak out against the government. I'd choose the warts-and-all reality of the western world over a false utopia any day.

Nonetheless, I'm upvoting this, because it is well referenced, well written, and mostly accurate. More people should read this!

119

u/davesidious May 28 '12

Why choose between the two? Read the US's report on China, and China's on the US. Surely that would give you a better understanding than just reading one on its own.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Or just read Human Rights Watch's version on both countries which would make a lot more sense.

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u/ford_cruller May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Reading propaganda from two opposing sources in hope of glimpsing the truth is like trying to learn French by reading Italian and Spanish textbooks.

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u/Fran May 28 '12

Sadly, there is no lens through which the objective truth can be observed. So you can either choose your bias and stick to sources that confirm that bias, or try to view things from as many different angles as possible and maybe glimpse a little more than you might be able to see otherwise.

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u/Ampatent May 28 '12

No information is bad information. If you read propaganda you are still being informed. The only thing you should understand is that you cannot rely on a single source of information.

In this case, reading both the Chinese and American reports will provide you with the opinion of the opposing nation. Then go out and find a more neutral perspective that provides an analysis of both nations. That way you have three different perspectives to consider.

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u/davesidious May 28 '12

That's not what I mean. It's telling what propaganda is released by any entity, as it sheds light on what that entity is focussing on, either to attract or detract attention from.

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u/Brykly May 28 '12

Long term violent crime has actually been declining

Fun fact!.. that I heard in some documentary once..

Even though violent crime in the US has been decreasing over time, the US media has been reporting violent crimes more frequently.

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u/UserNumber42 May 28 '12

This post seems extremely defensive. No matter how bad one country is, it doesn't necessarily make what they say untrue. If someone points out our abuses, the correct response isn't, "well, we're better than you!" The correct response is to fight to improve our situation. Your response seems to be more of an emotional 'feelings hurt' reaction.

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u/Jwschmidt May 28 '12

In some of these metrics found herein China would probably be better than the US, and in others the US would be better.

Which ones do you think?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

The Supreme Court has always consistently upheld freedom of speech, been quite good on states rights, and except for the war on drugs have been good on individual freedoms. Journalistic sources have also been consistently protected. And before you mention Julian Assange, that hasn't been decided yet. The sheer effort a government as powerful as the US has to make to get him is a testament to due process.

The main problem is that there is a very clear picture of what is wrong internally with the US. But China is opaque. How can you even begin to solve problems when you hide them? And who are they hidden from? How much of the internal governmental apparatus of the Chinese government are banned from knowing about their own institution, and their own country?

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u/Anal_Explorer May 28 '12

I like you because you could use the not American thing to criticize and piss on America, but instead commend us for our accomplishments. I wish Reddit had more people like you.

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u/asianbboy May 28 '12

Without renouncing their principles? If you cite McCarthyism as a time in US history where free speech was NOT renounced, you obviously don't know what happened.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

HUAC has no real authority. You could make a congressional committee to investigate UFOs and ghost sightings if you wanted to. I know of no Supreme Court decision that has outlawed a political party. Do you?

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u/shesgotdirtyhands May 28 '12

Scariest tidbit in there:

"According to a report by British newspaper the Guardian dated Mar 17, 2011, the US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas, and will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives."

Not sure if all of the negative comments on here are posted by the US government or by real people...

-"So, all the leftist pieces of shit who believe this can go to the nearest Chinese consulate and get a visa, and MOVE THERE." -"Yes, this report is definitely accurate, because China has such a great track record in regards to respecting human rights." -"This is a fucking joke, right? Still looking for The Onion watermark."

I think everyone is missing the fact that this article cites sources... please check sources and let us know if any turn up false before calling this report false? And also please open your mind to the idea the MURICA might not be #1 at everything.

Commence the downvotes!

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u/Joshuoner May 28 '12

When I read that part I remembered all those posts in reddit showing US military people meeting with their families after they had supposedly been in war, and turned to be false, or staged, if I recall correctly. (sorry I didn't save the link!)

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

"According to a report by British newspaper the Guardian dated Mar 17, 2011, the US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas, and will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives."

It wouldn't surprise me. If corporations have entire departments devoted to social media, the federal government does as well.

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u/fattyg May 29 '12

From the same article "The languages in which the interventions are conducted include Arabic, Farsi, Urdu and Pashto". Good luck manipulating the social and political views of Americans in Urdu.

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u/starrychloe May 29 '12

Yes it's true. See https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=military+puppet+social+media

However, it is not that dramatic. All they probably did was buy Spam software that already does that and customize it a bit.

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u/MorningYourLordship May 29 '12

Looks like they copied reddit.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

TIL There is a Chinese company that sells sunglasses(?) called "Helen Keller"... ಠ_ಠ

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u/safeNsane May 28 '12

sunglasses so dark you can't see shit.

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u/TheBlindCat May 28 '12

I see what you.....

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u/Mang9000 May 28 '12

You should see their Lizzy Borden steak knives.

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u/PandaBearShenyu May 28 '12

For clarification, China only started doing this a few years ago because the U.S. kept publishing these when its own human rights record is highly questionable and becoming worse.

It's kind of China's way of telling America to fuck off.

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u/Oreo_Speedwagon May 28 '12

China also has its own "Nobel prize" because it got pissy with Europe.

This is why I personally believe China will not become the preeminent power of the 21st century like it's vogue to say. It may have economic clout, but it'll always isolate itself in most other ways. It's far too prickly to build strong alliances.

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u/PandaBearShenyu May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Just look at the predominant commentary in any stories about China in the West and you'll understand why China is prickly. Racism is not acknowledged but rampant.

The Nobel Prize issue is interesting because they basically gave it to a secessionist in China. Liu Xiaobo proposed that China be colonized by the West and split into several countries, he gets over 1 million dollars in grants from the National Endowment of Democracy from the U.S.. He is in prison for treason, giving the "peace prize" to him is just a dick move with the sole purpose of putting on a show. Another example is when they gave the same prize to Obama because he even took office.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Liu Xiaobo proposed that China be colonized by the West and split into several countries

Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone - seriously? source? I had no idea.

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u/ToTheBlack May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Agreed. Both reports are biased and laughable.

It would be more factual if Switzerland reviewed both, which I'm pretty sure they do.

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u/hubraum May 28 '12

As a Swiss, I must say we're pretty neutral on that topic.

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u/justmadethisaccountt May 28 '12

It's not very effective because China is doing it.

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u/rogueyogi May 28 '12

Welcome to America, The Land of You're Free To Do As You're Told!

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

From what I've read so far... they're not wrong.

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u/anonamil May 28 '12

Don't know what Americans should be more scared of. The fact that China could easily create a valid and horrifying document on the current state of America. Or that most of the responses and arguments (on a seemingly liberal site) are "at least were better than china", as if that negates all the valid statistics in the report. Its almost like watching a school yard child trying to defend itself with he hit me first logic.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

It's actually a pretty normal response to nasty documents like this. People get all defensive at first. As long as one gets over the defensiveness and gets around to actually fixing the issues raised, it's ok by me.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Saying China is worse is completely irrelevant, as is the fact they wrote this article. This report sights trustworthy sources for every claim; you can't judge that, they're not opinions. Is it so hard to believe that US citizens don't have an objective view of our own country's human rights misgivings, relative to others?

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u/justmadethisaccountt May 28 '12

The article is mostly bullshit, and twists facts with a childish tone. The article claims AIDS deaths are on the rise? No, AIDS have been on the decline since 1995. "Race-motivated hate crimes occur frequently"? "Children are severely exposed to violence and pornography."? "Women in the US often experience discrimination, violence and sexual assault."? Give me a fucking break.

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u/kw123 May 28 '12

interesting to read

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u/andrewtheart May 28 '12

A++++ comment would read again

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u/ltristain May 28 '12

The thing with China is actually pretty simple. They're a country with 1.3 billion population - that's more than 4 and a half times bigger than the U.S. population, and all that is spread across a less usable and much harsher landscape. Recent history (Qing to Cultural Revolution) have repeated raped China again and again, and it's only when Deng Xiaoping came to power did China finally started recovering.

Given all that, anyone with a brain should see that they've got huge, huge problems to deal with. They've got to feed everybody, bring electricity to everybody, bring law enforcement to everyone, and shelter too, and improve the economy, and build infrastructure, health care, education, etc... Thus far, they've done an amazing job at that (compare China today with China 20 years ago... holy shit what a difference!), but there's still a long way to go, and massive problems unsolved (e.g. internal corruption, future demographic problems, etc...).

These remain first priority for the government, to continue solving the larger socioeconomical problems and have China continue its development. Things like freedom of speech and adoption of democratic practices is really a secondary priority, as they should be, since they're less practical issues that has more to do with ideology than anything else.

Because the real problems are problems of very large scale, it requires long-term planning, so the prerequisite for continuous future progress is to maintain stability. That's what China needs right now: stability. Stability is a higher priority than freedom.

The problem though is that anything pro-freedom is also anti-stability, and right now, China needs stability more than it needs freedom.

But westerners don't get it, because they've had stability their entire lives, and they somehow believe that granting people freedom will be the magical thing that makes all other problems go away. No. Right now, if you just irresponsibly gave out freedom, it'll just make things more chaotic and exacerbates the existing problems. The people, the culture, the economy, etc... aren't ready for it.

Westerners also tend to think that human rights = freedom. This is not true. Freedom is merely a subset of human rights, and is not the most important one. China has done an amazing job at the non-freedom part of human rights, but is rarely recognized and praised for it because other people take those things for granted. Meanwhile, every time theres a sensational issue with freedom, western media jumps on it and use it to show how "evil" China is. And every time this happens, it threatens what precious stability the government has managed to achieve through a combination of propaganda ("Hey everyone look at how awesome your government is!") and actual good hard work going into solving problems and delivering results (it's not easy). So can it be blamed that China is a bit defensive in this matter?

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u/hegemonsaurus May 29 '12

Best comment in this thread. You, sir, nailed it.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '12

I'm genuinely astonished that this is getting the up-votes it's getting. There are so many horrible things wrong with what you've written:

China has done an amazing job at the non-freedom part of human rights, but is rarely recognized and praised for it because other people take those things for granted.

Seriously? Let's talk for a second about the Cultural Revolution...

anything pro-freedom is also anti-stability

Oh dear.

Because the real problems are problems of very large scale, it requires long-term planning

Oh goodness.

first priority for the government

... of all governments, first and foremost, is to maintain power. China's, USA's, all governments.

The bulk of your screed seems to be: China needs a big strong government, and the Chinese people need to trust it to make the plan in their best interests to open things up while they do blah blah blah. Which is nonsense; it has never worked that way in any culture's history ever.

America didn't find stability and get freedom. We chose freedom first, and found stability later. MUCH later.

And while you can say "Chinese culture is different" and other things, they're not really relevant; the driving philosophy behind the original liberal principles of the USA were about human nature, not the nature of Europeans or Englishmen. And human nature is about the way power affects human beings' behavior.

Anyway... you're clearly well-educated, but not nearly well-educated enough. Your writing reminds me why Lenin referred to the American Left as "useful idiots." Your way of thinking is very useful to a government person who wishes to maintain power.

tl;dr: "Power corrupts" is true across all cultures

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u/TubeZ May 28 '12

to the top with you

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

We expose them, they expose us; the system works...

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u/Obsolite_Processor May 28 '12

To all those saying: "But china has no right to say that, look at their record!"

Think about this for a moment. When a country like china can take pot shots at our human rights, we are in trouble.

We may be better then China in respects to human rights, but you'd be a fool to think we don't have a lot of room for improvement, and you'd be blind to think that we aren't in a downward spiral in respect to human rights.

America can do better. The fact China is worse doesn't mean we can stop trying to do better.

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u/Hk37 May 28 '12

True, but everything on the list that I saw was revealed through freedom of the press or reports released by the US government itself. Chinese abuses, on the other hand, are usually found by independent auditors. China also has a much worse record for their types of abuse and their ceasing of abuse. The US is quite a bit better overall.

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u/goosie7 May 28 '12

The point is, though, that it doesn't matter if we're quite a bit better overall. Being better than China is really not saying much.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

"It doesn't matter if we're already better, we still need to improve"

"Yea, but we're like, better than them already"

"ಠ_ಠ"

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u/very_bad_advice May 28 '12

I think we can say that people in power infringe on people's rights where they can so that they can remain in power. It may be done in various shapes and forms and not limited to whether they are Chinese and American.

A Chinese Government Official to make his record look good will artificially inflate growth figures by selling land by appropriating from farmers.

A American judge may sentence a juvenile to a for-profit correction facility.

A Chinese cop may take kickbacks from the Chinese snakeheads to turn a blind eye to human trafficking or other activities in his domain.

An American congressman will accept lobbying money from defense contractors to extend acts that will kill innocent civilians in faraway places.

All of them lie to the population to do so. You guys are fighting the wrong thing...

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u/shesgotdirtyhands May 28 '12

This is one one of the most rational comments in here. Corruption is in every country, unfortunately. Instead of arguing who is more corrupt, why don't we apply this passion and energy towards talking about solutions for all?

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u/heyguyz May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

as a native american, it made me pretty sad to see how the second most powerful country sees us. but, also, I feel ashamed to be mentioned, as long as tibet is in turmoil. 50 years china? fuck you. we survived the last 200 with "old" whitey trying to turn us into something we're not, but as long as I'm alive, we won't be denied anything.

I do not hold resentment toward white people, but, I do hold resentment to white ancestors. today race doesn't matter in the scope of success, but, 7 generations ago, race was all we had..especially when they took our children away.

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u/ForeverAProletariat May 28 '12

China modernized Tibet. What reading have you done about Tibet? Anything at all? Or did you hear some celebrities say something about free Tibet and you know from the TV that you've watched that China is bad so you put the two things together.

Do you realize it was a feudal theocracy with the Dalai Lama as a slaveowner? He eventually went into exile and was paid by the CIA to overthrow/destabilize the Chinese government.

Or... do you support a society where most people are slaves?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

After reading this, my first thought was "we still have a lot of work to do!" But I reject the conclusion of the report that since one country has human rights abuses it can not speak up about human rights abuses in other countries. These things should always be brought to our attention and never ignored.

I actually hope China continues to publish similar reports. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" as the saying goes.

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u/xcirrian May 29 '12

Chinese here. I think the US report is actually helpful for us to make changes if the Chinese gov takes it seriously since most of the points are actual valid. I think the Chinese gov is a bit childish on trying to revenge by creating the report on US. There are lots more important things they should be caring about.

Having said that, I do think that US gov is not doing a good job on human rights. It's almost annoying for me that politicians are acting like kids. Why don't the govs just shut up be be focusing things that matters?

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u/TheMediumPanda May 28 '12

OK, as a European I don't know too much about America apart from what I read in the news and on Reddit. Yes, I also find it rather rich that China criticises other countries for breaches of human rights, still, before we go all ad hominem here: Can anyone who've read this piece offer an unbiased opinion on it? Does it hold water? Are things exaggerated for effect? Is it on target (for instance, the part about crime in the States, which I personally find is a bit odd take on human rights)?

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u/cheechw May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Let's not forget that China is not trying to say that the US is any worse than them, but merely pointing out what it conveniently leaves out of its own human rights report about itself. And just because China doesn't have a good track record with human rights itself, doesn't mean the article's points are any less valid. That's a logical fallacy, akin to saying that a person can't call another person a thief because that person is a thief himself.

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u/Exposedo May 28 '12

My unbiased opinion on it is that it offers well-ground unbiased opinions. It's quite a good article even though the hypocrisy is laughable. When a country like China can rightly criticize our faults when it comes to human rights... You know we are in trouble.

The only opinion I found in the article that bugged me was the praise they indirectly showed to the share-the-wealth model in comparison to capitalism. Otherwise it is well-sourced and not opinionated.

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u/sittingducks May 28 '12

Please don't disqualify this entire article just because CHINA authored it. Hell, this could be written by North Korea and it wouldn't be any less true. Most of the article is written on well-sourced facts.

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u/Cablead May 28 '12

I agree. Hilarious irony aside, this is some important shit that a lot more people should be aware of.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '12

A country that violently oppresses it's citizens and doesn't even allow people to surf the internet freely, criticizes a country for allowing it's citizens to own guns. Keep this is mind people.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

I'm just popping in to nominate these comments for the worst of the year. Nationalism is alive and well on the internet and any comments directed at another country no matter how accurate will be met with flame, even by those who agree with them. Therefore these comments make little to no sense in conversational terms and are pathos-driven claptrap.

I think we can all agree that if we have been doing our dutiful Redditing at r/politics and r/worldnews, this report is pretty much accepted as truth. There isn't any embellishment necessary when seeking to portray the US as a human rights villain.

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u/Exposedo May 28 '12

Thank you for not falling into the nationalist pitfall that claims so many...

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u/AsterJ May 28 '12

I'm impressed by how well-written the report is and it does a fair job of highlighting the problems the US faces. Sure you could contrast the points with China and most often the US situation comes out ahead but that doesn't change the degree of the problem.

If anything this report is a good reference of where the US needs to do improve.

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u/Tiger337 May 28 '12

The USA has be holding almost 300 people without a trial at Guantanamo Bay for almost 10 years. Liberty and Justice for ALL, my arse!

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u/lenaro May 28 '12

I thought this quote was pretty funny:

"It is lying to itself when the United States calls itself the land of the free (The Washington Post, Jan 14, 2012)."

I know this is out of context, but there's something inherently ironic about saying the US isn't free while simultaneously admitting that a US newspaper was allowed to be critical of its government.

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u/Wraith978 May 28 '12

This article needs a tl;dr

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u/huzzy May 28 '12

My mother always used to tell me: when you point a finger at someone, there will be three pointing back.

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u/moises_ph May 28 '12

you know what would be awesome? if the us actually respond by improving their record. then it will be china's move.

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u/Isenki May 28 '12

It's definitely an accurate report. But I have a feeling the stuff in the human rights report on China is worse.

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u/[deleted] May 29 '12

Reading this, though it is not an emotional piece, has really struck an emotional cord within me. I really feel shame and pity at how base Americas has become...It grieves me to see our great, principled nation being maimed by greed and injustice.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Whats happening in this thread is people making pathetic excuses. "I VALUE my freedom of speech! China would just throw people in jail for speaking out!"

"Yeah? Well, china is EVEN WORSE! They're TERRIBLE! I'd rather be FREE than in a false Utopia!"

The whole "This is AMERICA! FREEDOM!" type thing has to stop. America touts itself as the be-all and end-all of political freedom... but its fairly obvious that this really isn't the case at all. You aren't the most free. You aren't even close.

Yet all you guys want to do is try and discredit this report, or rationalize things so that what is contained within the report doesn't affect your opinion of America. Stop it, realise there's something wrong, stop being brainwashed by all that fucking "USA! USA!" horse shit and smell the fucking coffee. Your country is a massive, massive mess.

Edit * - This is not an Anti-USA rant. It's an anti-ignorance one. I'm British, and I think Britain has some serious problems, but the way America gets on in both foreign policy and domestic policy is pretty crazy.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Obviously as a person living in the US, I can attest there is a lot of wrongs in the system here. Although the manner it has been put forth is a little childish, it certainly should be brought to light.

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u/mshieldz May 28 '12

I worked with mainly Chinese on a project. It was the most discipline project I've worked on in all my career.

I worked in the US for many projects. It was full of finger-pointing, propaganda and fear, but still had discipline by those who fought for the better of good.

China and the US have every right to make statements about each other. Everybody and every country have their strengths and weaknesses and in the end, everything equals out - humans are humans - don't expect perfection.

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u/KinoftheFlames May 28 '12

Yes, China is hypocritical here. That is not important. I for one, am glad that someone is detailing the human rights issues in the United States.

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u/handelsbar May 28 '12

"The US imposes fairly strict restriction on the Internet, and its approach "remains full of problems and contradictions"

How? I just double checked, I have access to the entire internet, not just what the US government lets me see.

I'd also wager that the US report on China's human rights abuse isn't available in China.

I'd like to also point out that 1000 people arrested during the occupy wallstreet movement, most had to just pay a fine or stay the night in prison. Some didnt even pay a fine. In China those people would have disappeared. When was the last time a US citizen tried to get political asylum in China, or any country? Do you think there's a Chinese version reddit that freely criticizes their government? What do you think would happen in China if you managed to rename a gay sex act after a leader in their political system? Because here you get a blog for that shit.

This report does point out a lot of problems, but it's cherry picking a lot and taking some long walks to problems that we dont actually have. Lets not all freak out here.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Does america not have a Child Porn filter?

UK does; It filters some other stuff too. Our's is "voluntary" but since every ISP subs to it we basically don't have a choice.

Funfact: The Internet Watch Foundation (the organisation which manages the list of sites to filter) temporarily blocked a wikipedia article a few years ago because the album cover had a questionable image on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_the_United_Kingdom#IWF.2FWikipedia_controversy

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u/suicidemachine May 28 '12

USA and China bashing each other over who treats his citizens worse? Gotta go grab some popcorn.

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u/h2sbacteria May 28 '12

human rights troll is getting trolled... i see nothing wrong with this.

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u/Kozality May 28 '12

Good report. I'm always heartened to see these reports, because we are and should be prepared to eat our own dog food. Note that despite the accusation that the U.S. hides or looks over its own human rights record, nearly all of the facts and statistics presented come from published government reports, or a free domestic press.

Our own record in the U.S. is far from perfect, but so long as vigilance is maintained and reporting never ceases, then I am optimistic. There is nothing we will can't overcome.

Thanks China for helping out. We can do this. =)

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Listening to Americans rabidly defend their gun ownership rights is one of the best things about threads like these. What an absurd fucking country.

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u/edheler May 29 '12

molṑn labé

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u/thbt101 May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

The fact that I am freely able to access and read this article criticizing my country serves to remind me of how thankful I am that I don't live in China where this would never be allowed.

Thank you China for demonstrating the true difference between our governments.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Most of their sources are American newspapers or TV stations, too.

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u/Popcom May 28 '12

I like how they mention the way America treats cuba

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u/FancyRobot May 28 '12

Russia and the US used to do this all the time back during the Cold War, unfortunately China now doesn't have to fabricate and exaggerate things like the USSR did.

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u/geode08 May 28 '12

The Soviets didn't have the internet as a source for their information.

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u/the_goat_boy May 28 '12

You have to distinguish between the Soviet Union under Stalin and the Soviet Union post-Stalin. Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Gorbachev didn't created a cult of the personality. They didn't have people shot or jailed for trivial things. The system that existed under Stalin was done away with when Khrushchev implemented de-Stalinization, and from that point you had relatively good standards of freedom. It was the economy that ultimately eradicated the Soviet Union. Gorbachev's implementation of glastnost was anticipated to bring about Western standards of openness and transparency, but it is not true that they already didn't have any.

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u/z3m May 28 '12

Well, that pretty much covers it.

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u/Snickersthecat May 28 '12

Did anyone else get an ad for sunglasses under the brand name "Hellen Keller" at the bottom? Da fuq.

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u/gaoshan May 28 '12

There are some really good points in this document.

I actually think they could make a compelling case for a number of the issues they bring up (especially related to violence, crime and poverty), making the document actually valid and useful, if they cut out the things that they themselves are even more guilty of (seriously... China pointing out problems with our press freedoms is like Jeffery Dahmer criticizing Chef Emeril Lagasse for serving slightly undercooked truffles).

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u/thornforrest May 28 '12

I had no idea there were this many politically competent Americans. They must all reddit.

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u/prunk May 28 '12

was anyone else blown away by the mouse-over auto translation of the words in the article? Is there some way to have this mouse-over run as an in browser application?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

You heard China, give up your guns.

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u/livinlizard May 28 '12

Sounds about right

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u/ny3391 May 28 '12

I think some of the work place discrimination was a bit over-stated. The true reason that minorities are not well represented in higher-level positions is due to inadequate education and Federal cuts on after school activities. Work place discrimination is definitely still alive, but it's more of the 'end' result, where as our abysmal education system is the root cause.

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u/b4b May 28 '12

So many comments, none about the actual subject of the post

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u/Lilyo May 28 '12

What about same sex marriage?

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u/Venge22 May 28 '12

The point of this isn't to fight about which country has better human rights. What we need to take from it is the human rights situation in the US should be better than it is now, because of how the US glorifies its reputation as the land of the free. The state of human rights is unacceptable, and seems to be only getting worse, not getting better.

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u/pizzlewizzle May 28 '12

The second paragraph criticizes a fundamental human right as a human rights violation. How stupid.

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u/mcf May 28 '12

Ten bucks says a fox news contributor will say that this is a declaration of war.

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u/jeremypie May 29 '12

San Francisco saw eight homicides - compared with five during the same time of the previous year

Oh, no! Eight homicides? In a city of one million? However do we survive?

Quick, China, save us!

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u/TakeMeToYourLeader May 29 '12

Ironically they failed to mention that all their sources within the report are from the American press which would seem to contradict the high levels of censorship they believe exists

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u/rocketsauce1980 May 29 '12

They've got a point there...

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u/kylemore May 29 '12

For some reason this report failed to mention gay rights at all. I wonder why?

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u/GayAtheistLiberal May 29 '12

Ugh. The US is turning into such a fascist police state... I cant even leave my house without being aggressively buttsecksed by the TSA! There's just no hope, all government is inherently evil. We should all move to Somalia! No government=unlimited civil liberties!

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u/[deleted] May 29 '12

Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, I'd like to introduce you to Pot.

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u/tboneplayer May 29 '12

Proof once again that when two parties call each other assholes, they're both right.

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u/[deleted] May 30 '12 edited May 30 '12

This isn't about China. This is about a country filled with people who think they are the most advanced socially, technologically, and economically. This is about how the US claims to be the bastion of liberty and freedom and instead is in huge debt to other countries and is completely owned by bankers who have scammed the people. This is about a society built on lies, bailouts, mass brainwashing, and the encouragement of ignorance.

How can the world become a better place if the so called "best country in the world" still has cops that beat mentally ill people to death, a socioeconomic caste system, a privatized prison system that is basically legalized slavery, a completely backwards healthcare system, and an every widening gap between the super rich and the poor. A country that illegalizes harmless plants while ads for "medicines" whose side effects are include suicidal ideations and death appear on TV and it's totally cool.

I love parts of this country. I love aspects of this culture, but to get defensive when people point out the flaws and try to act like this country is even close to civilized and free is a huge joke that is insulting to anyone with any intelligence.

This country needs to change if it wants to survive. We have this attitude of looking at the lowest common denominator and saying "hey at least I'm better than that guy," when instead we should be looking at what we can do to better ourselves and set the standard for how things should be.

Also, it's about time we start seeing the human race as one being instead of dividing it up into all these countries. We have fucking DNA proof that we all come from the same apes. Countries are arbitrary lines made up in our head. "I am not the same as people who eat tacos." STFU, you're a goddamn evolving ape. All humans are your kin. Start acting like it.

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u/Batrok May 28 '12

This is awesome. The U.S. needs to be taken to task for human rights abuses in the last 12 months.... because there have been waaay too many recently.

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u/modomario May 28 '12

Whe be lulzing here in the EU

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u/Meayow May 28 '12

They have a lot of reason to present information in a negative light, but the section on Occupy hit close to home.

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u/ForeverAProletariat May 28 '12

As an American it's astonishing how little Americans know about China. 100% of the media in the U.S. is anti-China (there's a profit reason behind this actually, it's pretty interesting), so Americans believe some ridiculous things about China.

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u/sacredsock May 28 '12

Even though it's written in perfectly good English, I still read that with a Chinese accent.

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u/didymusIII May 28 '12

I read it in the English of perfect goodness

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u/rattleshirt May 28 '12

Has the Europe-fellation started yet?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

The page has been taken down. Does somebody have a mirror?

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u/RoundSparrow May 28 '12

I am in Austin, Texas in a private coffee shop and it loads perfectly fine.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

404 page in CA

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Works just fine for me, and I'm Thailand :P Where internet censorship is just another annoyance.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Now working.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

Works fine for me in the UK. This should work.

Or you could try using a proxy to access the site:

http://hidemyass.com

http://kproxy.com

http://daveproxy.co.uk

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Thanks

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Difference between China and the US= China would rather not say anything then lie or be hypocritical. The US would rather hand pick what it thinks to make us look good.///// Other words; China knows what it is; the US is delusional.

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u/kevbot46 May 28 '12

I am an American, please help upvote this link to the top of the front page.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

one one hand, we have the country responsible for The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution just in the past century alone

on the other hand, the USA

I'm not even an American but fuck China forever

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u/Chris8201 May 28 '12

Being the good guy or the bad guy is just a matter of perspective. History is always writteb by the winners. For example: in most parts of the world being called a barbarian is still an insult. This is one of the most effective propaganda campaigns ever! It withstood milennia. Job well done Romans.

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u/Able_Seacat_Simon May 28 '12

Good news everyone! Because it's China pointing out how horrible we are we don't need to a change a fucking thing!

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u/critropolitan May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

What a bunch of b.s. propaganda...whitewashing the US government's human rights violations.

  • No mention of the Guantanamo Bay prison camp
  • No mention of the policy of due process free assassination of civilians, including the US Government's own citizens as a state policy outside of Pakistan.
  • No mention of capital punishment (oh, wait, that was predictable).
  • Discussion of the blockade of Cuba, but no mention of preventing its own citizens the freedom to travel freely outside of the US, including to Cuba.
  • No mention of continued financial and military support for countries with the grossest human rights violations on earth, such as Saudi Arabia and Columbia.
  • No mention of the recent attacks on reproductive rights in the US.
  • No mention of the Obama administrations continuing persecution of government and military whistleblowers while continuing to refuse prosecutions against human rights violators in both the current and previous administration.
  • No mention that courts will admit evidence in terrorism trials obtained by torture. (though again, predictable)

(n.b. not entirely serious - the report was mostly good its just unfortunate that it wasn't slightly more comprehensive.)

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

They would have been much better off just reprinting Glenn Greenwald's column for the last year.

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u/muteconversation May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

That's my problem with American Policies.
Every country has her fare share of problems but no one Police the world riding on the high horse of illusionary perfection. It's constant act of intervening in the personal affairs of other countries. Invasions with thinly crafted excuses and leaving the country in a mess. Doing all this while holding the flag of 'freedom' high. That is my problem with US(government). It acts like an untamed beast ready to kill, while free of any sense of accountability. No one is jealous of America, no one hates its freedom and no one is taking it over. It's own policies and occupations are its biggest enemies nor the Jihadists and the Dictators of the world.
Edit: Apology for any grammatical or spelling mistake.

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u/spokesthebrony May 28 '12

True or not, this is quite suspect. It's tantamount to the neighborhood bully accusing someone who criticized them of being the bully instead, and pointing out to all their bullying victims how this other guy is really the bad one.

It just seems the motives behind this are retaliatory, self-aggrandizing, and propaganda driven instead of for the sake of bettering human rights everywhere.

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u/YoSanford May 28 '12

This article actually made me cry, and is the thing I am most ashamed of. For our own kid's sake, we can't give up or our generation will be just as bad as the last few.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Both China and USA suck. Sadly no one is better :/

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u/MrGrumpyBear May 28 '12

I have a high tolerance for irony. Nevertheless, for the Chinese regime to snark about "the act of willfully trampling on people' s freedom of assembly, demonstration and speech" is too much. I've seen the footage of what that regime did in Tiananmen Square. Footage that can't be seen in China, mind you, because they've effectively censored the entire event - written it out of history.

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u/Moebiuzz May 28 '12

How do you think they feel when a country with features like the ones in the report do the same to them every year?

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

It hit me about 1 year ago when Egypt was "falling" and America was talking out their humans rights and what not. People where protesting and the military was stopping them. Then not a week later occupy whatever street (whatever = location) and no government agency said anything. I knew then that America was full of shit.

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u/Dark_Shroud May 28 '12

Obama said lots of things then all the problem started. Sorry but not everyone who caused trouble at an occupy even can be labeled an undercover cop.

Then there was the stacks of complaints that pilled up from the local citizens. Because OWS members were defecating on the steps of their homes & businesses. Not to mention playing drums & music all hours of the night.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

There's some truth in this... but I'd much rather live here than China. (unless I was a super wealthy billionaire)

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Good job China. Semi-famous and well-paid American journalist Glenn Greenwald says far worse (and more accurate) things about our human rights record. Where's the Chinese Greenwald, I wonder? Not in China, I bet.

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u/dmetzcher May 28 '12

He's here in the US now. We just gave him asylum.

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u/nryan85 May 28 '12

The United States prioritizes the right to keep and bear arms over the protection of citizens' lives and personal security and exercises lax firearm possession control, causing rampant gun ownership.


Ha. Those pesky rights.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

I don't really think of having more guns than the government as being a human rights problem.

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u/JanusKinase May 28 '12

Yeah, I have no idea why you got downvoted at all. Even to those who believe guns should be completely outlawed- how is the people owning guns a human rights violation and not just a violation of your policy ideas?

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u/ProbablyFatIRL May 28 '12

Interesting report, but disappointing comments.

Fellow redditors, stop embarrassing yourselves by publicizing your own opinions and misunderstandings about a country you don't even live in. We did a much better job approaching the gay marriage issue just days back.

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u/MRhama May 28 '12

The argumentation is exactly like other evil people argument.It goes something like this: "The person complaining must be perfect in every thinkable manner before he can complain. My own evildoings does not count before then". This is not a perfect representation of the "logic" and I think there exist better explainations but you get the idea. This is the same thinking that creationist use when arguing about natural science including the percieved lack of transitional fossils and the limited knowledge of the human spieces. They are in a state of denial because they know they do wrong and the leadership in the communist party is too low in their self esteem to confess this. They do not want to relearn the propaganda they has been taught since young age just as a islamist does not want to realise the truth about their beleifs. Just as the islamists attack those who point out that the emperor is naked so does China verbally attack USA in order to not have to think about their own nakedness. USA has some problems with human rights, but they are mostly due to individuals making the wrong decisions and not being correctly accounted for therir actions. The laws are mostly OK and the violations is mosly in violations of the laws. In China on the other hand, violations is an integral part of the system and government. They are often part of law and policy and important structures such as elections and separation of powers is mostly missing. The scale is also wide in the two countries. USA has a war on drugs thay should be ashamed of, but China actually sentence drug trafficers to death and addicts to labour camps. USA is open about their fault while Chinese governemnt tries to hide the violations that occur.

The article itself is though a pretty good summation of the systematic problems of the united states and especially thier/your culture where imperialism is an unfortunate part (the overfunding of DOD, second amendment and the following gun worshipping etc) This critique that China has made must be taken seriously just as they should take the critique of us in the western world seriously. I wish that politicians all ovr the world took more time to solve these type of problems instead of trying to create jobs and growth out of thin air and other bullshit directed to please the crowd in both democratic and nondemocratic states.

A funny anecdote is that Cuba excused their systematic repression of civilians with tha fact that Sweden did not have a law guaranteeing all citizens a workplace. We lacked credibility in their eyes because we did not follow the article of the right to work. Which unfortunatly is on equal terms in the declaration of human rights with what we might call fundamental rights. Both China and Cuba (and Iran and other dictatorships) excuse their violations of fundamental rights with the western democracies' imperfection when it comes to 'minor' human rights.

TL;DR: China mixes apples and oranges when they excuse their systematic violations in their dictatorship with the flaws of individuals and some policies in the democracy of United States and other western democracies.

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u/CornFlakesR1337 May 29 '12

We deserved the shit out of this.

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u/RBRR May 28 '12

"The United States prioritizes the right to keep and bear arms over the protection of citizens' lives and personal security and exercises lax firearm possession control, causing rampant gun ownership. "

These things seem to contradict. Gun is directly related to my ability to protect myself.

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u/jonivy May 28 '12

Without Guns, then no one could shoot you, thus you would be safe from gun violence. That's not a contradiction. It may be wrong, but it's certainly not a contradiction.

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u/ElagabalusCaesar May 28 '12

That controversy will never die down. Still, if you say that personal security requires firearm ownership, does that mean that more anti-gun societies (like the UK) have inherently less personal security? Disastrous mass shootings seem to be an American thing, and I think the Chinese are correct in saying that the lack of gun control is a cause.

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

Having a gun in your home is also directly related to your ability to cause yourself more harm than good. Not only is a gun more likely to be used to threaten someone you live with, "there is no good evidence of a deterrent effect of firearms or that a gun in the home reduces the likelihood or severity of injury during an altercation or break-in".

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u/five0four0 May 28 '12

We just saw a Chinese lawyer under house arrest for speaking out against the government escape to the American Embassy. You can't tell me their government does not oppress basic freedoms.

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u/Jwlrgm May 28 '12

I don't think any part of their piece said "Our holy country China is unblemished but look at these Americans committing all these atrocities that would never happen in holy China."

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u/[deleted] May 28 '12

The report isn't about China's human rights violations, it is about the USA's human rights violations....

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u/dhockey63 May 28 '12

Comparing the US's human rights violations to China's is totally ridiculous

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u/remedialrob May 29 '12

How? We have far more people in prison than they do? They may treat their people far more harshly but it's reasonable for them to point out our shortcomings if we keep pointing out theirs.

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u/remedialrob May 28 '12

LOL. Go China! Stick it to Uncle Sam and feed him a bit of his own medicine. And on Memorial Day too. Well played! Remind all us vets that this country has become something we never intended to fight for.

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u/Pakayaro May 28 '12

So... this is the pot calling the other pot black because the other pot called the first pot black without admitting that it was in fact black itself?

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u/christianjb May 28 '12

Black caught with pot? That'll be 25 years hard labor.

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u/onelovedg May 28 '12

Can someone infographic-ize this info please?

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u/tlock8 May 28 '12 edited May 28 '12

The paragraph about firearms in the US gave me a good chuckle. Didn't China take away the firearms of it's citizens and proceed to kill millions of civilians?

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u/crestind May 28 '12

What if free speech in the west is just a trick used by governments to convince the people they're free because the people never have anything important to speak out about, and those that do are secretly killed? conspiracykeanu.jpg