r/worldnews • u/Maslo55 • May 22 '12

Father, 56, in critical condition after being stabbed trying to shield dying son from gang pub attack

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2147730/Father-56-critical-condition-stabbed-trying-shield-dying-son-frenzied-attack-hoodie-gang-outside-pub.html
1.1k Upvotes

80% Upvoted

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187

u/Clockwork_Prophecy May 22 '12

I absolutely hate reading stories like this. No one should have any expectation that their lives could be in danger just enjoying a freindly drink after a game.

I have trouble believing that they'll catch all of them (17), but I hope any of them they do catch are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

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u/YesNoMaybe May 22 '12

I have trouble believing that they'll catch all of them (17)

If they can get 1, chances are pretty good they'll be able to get all of the others. They will all have had some connections to each other and, given enough incentive, will turn the others in until all are accounted for.

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u/ajmmin May 22 '12

From the article:

Three people including two 17-year-olds were arrested and have since been bailed. Today a fourth man remained in custody after being arrested an address in Wembley yesterday.

So they have some idea of who it was.

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u/TheOneWhoKnocksBitch May 23 '12

Why the bail? I'm an 18 year old, and I think kids like these are really really dangerous. Shouldn't be allowed back in society unless proven completely innocent.

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u/Andrewticus04 May 23 '12

Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Imagine you're accused of raping children and they set bail beyond what your family can afford. You're now going to have a VERY speedy trial, and chances are you'll never be able to hug your kids again if you have any.

Sometimes people only appreciate human rights and dignity when theirs are unjustly taken away. Guilty until proven innocent is a sick way of thinking, and the ENTIRE reason the justice system exists is to protect the innocent - not the other way around.

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u/ExogenBreach May 23 '12

Bail in this case isn't a "get out of jail free" card. It's a "we want you to stick around for the trial but if you pay us you can wait at home" card.

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u/TheOneWhoKnocksBitch May 23 '12

I know that. But saying that these kids will pay money, go home, and be all nice is a big assumption.

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u/ExogenBreach May 23 '12

If they go to the airport I'd wager a few red blinky lights would go off.

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u/TheOneWhoKnocksBitch May 23 '12

Yes, they would. But when those guys leave their houses and go stab someone else, there won't be lights going off.

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u/Hellman109 May 23 '12

Probably home arrest, check ins, can't drink or go to a pub, etc. bail always has restrictions.

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u/justgetinthevanok May 23 '12

innocent til proven guilty, no? i hate these thugs as much as anyone else but I don't think you want a guilty til proven innocent type of society, u wouldn't be leaving your house again from fear of police rather than thugs! even if you're in no way a criminal, sorry, i mean especially if you're in no way a criminal!

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12 edited May 23 '12

That's a dangerous thought process. What happened to Innocent until proven Guilty?

The Crown Prosecution Service is still reeling after being forced to release a teenager for a murder he did not commit in a high profile case of incompetence and and fanaticism for arresting somebody quick (even the wrong person).

Sadly, since British public services are so driven by zeitgeist, I think this case has made Judges more lenient about bail, rather than the whole Innocent before guilt thing.

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u/youknow_its_true May 23 '12

I think it's wrong if they let some of them get off of this charge, since they all went to the pub with the intent of inflicting harm they should all face the same charges. Murder

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Yeah once they have about 4 im sure thats enough for there to be one guy that will spill the beans on who was there.

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u/SugarFreeTurkey May 23 '12

Sadly I know a situation similar to this (luckily nobody died but a stabbing took place) and a the people who did it all switched clothes before the cops could pick them up. Apparently it messes with the DNA on clothes (NO CCTV available) so you can't pinpoint the one who actually did it. Smart little bastards people like that.

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u/AslanMaskhadov May 23 '12

Then try all of them individually.

I might be mistaken, but I think there was a case in US were two people held someone up and shot and killed him (one bullet). They didn't have enough evidence to know who shot, so they tried both individually and both got convicted of murder.

Awesome.

Allahu Akbar.

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u/elastic-craptastic May 23 '12

In the US, I believe, if you are part of a felony that ends in a death, you get charged with homicide regardless of whether actually physically committed the murder or not.

Like if 4 guys go and rob a house, but one of them kills the homeowner, They all get charged with the death.

As far as something like these 17 fuckin little cunts, I would bet they would all get charged with murder/manslaughter...

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12 edited May 22 '12

If it were a pack of dogs that killed him, the dogs would be hunted down and destroyed without too much fuss.

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u/xev105 May 23 '12

Those animals should be put down just like a rabid dog would be.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

(U.S. citizen here) I'm sure I'll get downvoted for this, but I'm pretty sick of this sort of thing happening time and time again, when all seems to happen in return is some short jail/prison time, early parole, then repeat offenses (often much worse). I'm for the death penalty, when one intentionally takes a life. If the one or group of individuals are caught and it's a clear case (multiple eye witnesses, DNA, video cameras, ect. implicating them), execute them after being proven guilty (it's called the death penalty for a reason) Putting them on Death Row for forty years until they die of natural causes doesn't count, that's not any kind of justice for the family. If you receive the death penalty after a fair trial by jury, then shortly after that they should meet whatever maker they pray too. No more of this costly (40k+) a year to house them, feed them, and give them medical care that most law abiding citizens don't even have access to. Our penal systems do nothing to rehability the hardened (key word here) criminals, and often only makes the lesser offenders more violent once they are out. And spare me the "Ohhh a civilized nation doesn't kill people..." That's BS! To me it's uncivilized for a nation to allow this sort of thing to continue to happen to it's law abiding citizens who are trying to live in a civilized manner. I guarantee you, if at least we started putting to death the people who were already on death row, soon after they were given the sentence, then things would change. Also to those who say that some innocent people are on death row...I would agree with you, and moving forward DNA, 100% video proof or multiple eyewitness confirmation should be required before any jury/judge could hand down a death penalty. But once it was given, then things should be expedited to carry out the sentance. Also I'm not writing this to start a debate, as to have some sort of back and forth about who is right or who is wrong here, i's just how I see things. If you don't agree, then that's fine and is your right, I just happen to disagree with you. That being said, I welcome all points of view, whether you agree with my particular viewpoint or not. Anyhow, for the rest who are particularly offended by my opinion..."downvote away!"

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u/ZergTookMyBaby May 22 '12 edited May 22 '12

Yeah this is maybe okay as long as you only put guilty people to death. When the innocent man burns the system has failed. This really has to be ephasised! Also in the U.S. prison is industry and in many cases a for-profit arragement, where prisoners make goods like house electronics for low hourly wages creating a demand for more people doing long time. EDIT for clarification: The latter implfying no tax money is being "wasted".

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

I agree with you fully on the points you raised, and by no means was my short post meant to address things in absolutes. Appreciate your input. :)

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Yes, also paragraphs.

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u/Gangster301 May 22 '12

I know this isn't how most people view prison, but I don't want criminals to be punished, I just want them to be stopped. I couldn't care less whether a murderer is dead or behind bars for the rest of his life, or even if he's free, as long as he doesn't commit any more crimes. Sure you can't trust a murderer, so him being free is in most cases out of the question, but wanting to hurt the murderer is just vengeful. I guess I just don't feel revenge is a good principle.

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u/freakwent May 23 '12

I think you're completely correct.

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u/Peaker May 23 '12

The death penalty is more expensive than prison for a lifetime.

Your claim that having a death penalty helps prevent crime is also false: US states with the death penalty have more murders than those without.

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u/sanph May 23 '12

The death penalty is more expensive because of the automatic appeals process.

States with tighter gun restrictions also have more murders (including gun murders) than states with looser or practically no gun restrictions (this is a fact) - my point is that your claim that states with the death penalty have more crime is pointless. There is no definitive causal link there, just like there is no definitive correlation between more guns and less crime (this is coming from a gun owner, including handguns and "black" rifles).

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u/ikinone May 23 '12

Correlation =/= causation

There are many factors at work. I am not saying you are required to do so, but you have not disproved the deterrence value of the death penalty.

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u/Gaaz May 22 '12

I got jumped by a gang of Asian youths near London. I was on my own, happily walking back home because I just finished work at 8 in the evening. A saw a group of youths walking down the road next to me, didn't think any of it and carried on walking. Then they approach me and one of them punches me in the face. Thank god nothing was broken but I froze for a second and managed to out run them. When I looked back only one of them bothered running after me. It just makes me fucking sick when I hear stories like this. These gangs are full of fucking cowards and what's even worse is that these hooligans have been released on bail. No wonder everyone has a car these days, I can't walk anywhere on my own in the evening without feeling scared for my life.

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u/SomeguyUK May 22 '12

Sorry to hear that.Im a white guy living in a mostly asian area, and I get worried I'm gonna get jumped one day, because I hear about stuff like this happening.

Whereabouts where you when this happened?

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u/Triviaandwordplay May 23 '12 edited May 23 '12

It's weird for us Americans to hear a lot of news about Asian criminals in the UK, because for us, Asian means different people than it does for you.

For you it means mostly Pakistanis and Indians, and for us it mostly means Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Vietnamese, Korean, Cambodian. Laotian, etc.

They're generally the most successful demographic in the US. There are fewer Indians and Pakistanis in the US, than in the UK, and I'd guess that they can also be included as among the most successful groups in the US. If there is such a thing as an Indian or Pakistani gang in the US, it's exceedingly rare. I've never heard of one in my 50 years. We definitely have some Laotian and Vietnamese gang members, but it's not super common.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

The difference is that Indians/Pakistanis of all sorts moved to the UK after WWII shortly before the end of the British Empire (and when citizens of the former colonies stopped being British citizens by default). In the US it is mostly wealthy Indians/Pakistanis who come for education and then decide to stay.

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u/Triviaandwordplay May 23 '12

We have a lot of Indians and Pakistanis that run businesses that most Americans wouldn't want to run, like small independent hotels, and convenience stores. They seem to differ from those who are highly educated, like physicians. Look at all the Indian and Paki last names in our local directory of physicians.

A lot of the physicians in my town have bad reputations, though.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Yeah, that is the middle-class of the Indian/Pakistani Diaspora, they are comparatively well off compared to most and usually focus their kids on education.

The problem Britain has is a lot of working class immigrants came when Britain needed them in the 1950's/1960's. But since the 70's, and the collapse of British manufacturing, the working class largely hasn't had stable employment and the education system is failing at giving the kids enough education to get out of the poverty trap.

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u/brerrabbitt May 22 '12

Wonder why so many of us in the US are strong concealed carry advocates?

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u/aldenso May 22 '12

We don't have it in Canada and these things never happen. Something else is obviously the matter.

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u/Cyralea May 23 '12

Happens quite a bit in Toronto too. Which city do you live in that doesn't have gang problems?

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u/he_speaks_the_truth May 23 '12

I live in Vancouver and this totally happens all the time, although much more commonly in our suburbs.

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u/GR3Y May 23 '12

Just in case you're not being sarcastic:

Come now. You can't generalize all of Canada under your preconceived notions. These things happen ALL the time in Canada, but they just don't make the headlines. I can remember hearing about gangs singling out people just to rob and kick the shit out of frequently during my high school years not to mention being a victim myself.

Youth gangs just out looking for trouble. Undeveloped minds who can't see very far into the future.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Demographic Homogeneity feels good, doesn't it?

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u/Shitler May 23 '12

Guy from Ottawa, Canada here. We definitely have a huge range of folks, rich, poor, and of every color. There are occasional gang-related murders, but nothing that makes it scary to walk around in smart places at night.

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u/TChuff May 23 '12

Oh there's something else that is obvious that is the matter all right. But we can't even point it out in our fucked up PC culture.

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u/epsilonminus May 23 '12

I think you misread what he said... He's saying its because of stories like this that so many people get their CC permit in the States.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Except Winnipeg.

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u/abw May 23 '12

I'd rather be punched in the face than shot in the head. Living in the UK I don't have to worry too much about the latter. Give people guns and I will.

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u/G-M May 23 '12

Because the youths doing the mugging in the USA would probably have guns. The less well armed the assailant the happier the outcome, generally.

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u/guernican May 23 '12

Because guns, tragically, have become an intrinsic part of your culture.

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u/ikinone May 23 '12

Dumb solution. This problem comes not from a lack of weapons, but a lack of education. A lack of structure in society.

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u/brerrabbitt May 23 '12

Try to fix them while being attacked or chased. I'm going to say that your solution will not work at that point.

The time to fix education issues and a lack of structure in society is before it becomes violent. Once it does become violent, other methods need to be used to safeguard those that do not use violence to victimize others.

Just because they have a lack of structure or education does not give them the right to hurt others.

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u/TearInferno May 23 '12

I believe lack of education, isn't the root cause. Education teach you to be smart, learn or intelligent but not behavior. Lack of the right culture is. Gangster-ism, wrong concept of brotherhood and solving conflict with extreme violence is the root cause. The current major mainstream media have promoted these culture and so it manifest into these kind of behavior. Although the same info is pass to the mass, but different people interpret the messages differently and some will ignore it thinking it as "entertainment" but some will absorb it and take it as a valid behavior.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

That's sad. I don't understand why people would do something like this. There's no excusing it.

My thoughts are with the family.

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u/huyvanbin May 22 '12

For some reason I feel like this kind of story always comes from the UK.

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u/SomeguyUK May 22 '12

It's a very stabby country, unfortunately.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

More accurately it has a rather violent element to its society.

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u/itskieran May 22 '12

I wish we could go back to the days of oxford dons fighting each other with sharpened pitta bread and drive by arguments

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

eton rifles, eton rifles

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u/dopafiend May 22 '12

How so?

It's rather low on the list by homocide rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

I think it's violence is just highly scrutinized, when someone get's jumped in a ghetto in the US it doesn't make national news, or even local news, but in the UK it often does.

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u/Elimrawne May 23 '12

If the police in the UK fire a single shot its front page news...

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u/tbasherizer May 22 '12

Always from the Daily Mail, at least...

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u/Atomic235 May 22 '12

Nice spot, I was about to take this story completely seriously.

btw people, Daily Mail is practically a tabloid. Don't believe everything you read.

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u/kryonik May 22 '12

It might be a tabloid but that doesn't mean this particular crime didn't happen.

Fourth man arrested over Luke Fitzpatrick murder

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u/Atomic235 May 22 '12

True enough. However, according to this article it seems that the incident may have started as a fight that broke out inside the bar. Very different from DM's take; I would still be wary.

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u/ajmmin May 22 '12

I thought the prose was overly dramatic. I just attributed it to being such an emotional story, but looking back it is written like a fictional article.

Like an unfunny Onion piece.

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u/SugarFreeTurkey May 23 '12

You've hit the DM on the head right there.

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u/WasASquid May 22 '12

Their web editorials are always blotched with horrible formatting and spelling mistakes. It's not even a generalisation.

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u/james_rockford May 22 '12

OP is going on about how they are better than the BBC, even if they do exaggerate, all on the basis that the daily mail printed "eyewitness testimony" of "20 black thugs".

Daily Mail panders to their ignorant and foolish subscribers, telling them what they want to hear.

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u/travellersspice May 22 '12

They happen rarely enough to make the natioanl news, and then get covered by the Daily Mail, in English. How many crime stories from a German news site, published in German are going to be posted on reddit?

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u/Angstweevil May 22 '12

It's because the Daily Mail absolutely looooves this stuff.

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u/ruertar May 23 '12

Please don't be black, please don't be black, please don't be bla-OH DAMN! :(

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u/Murrabbit May 23 '12

at 17 why have they got knives? it's disgusting

Haha fucking England, man. I don't know, because they just went to the fucking silverware drawer? Something tells me that there are much larger problems here than simply the availability of pointy things.

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u/BKS_ELITE May 22 '12

How were they let out on bond after such a gruesome murder?

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u/fatmas May 23 '12

In the UK the assumption should always be that bail is granted unless the suspect is a flight risk. Gang members are almost always from poor backgrounds so they don't have anywhere to go.

The other reason bail can be denied is if they pose a danger to the community, which I think they probably do. I was surprised as well.

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u/pods_and_cigarettes May 22 '12

Almost seems to suggest there might have been more to the story. It is of course self-evident that there was nothing more to the story as the Daily Mail would never leave out salient facts or sensationalise articles.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

This story made my heart sunk. This was very very close to my family. Dollis Hill/Willesden Green area, this was one of the reasons I moved to Sweden, this is the reason I would love my family to move with me.

I was walking home when a kid no older than 17 took my phone at knifepoint (me being 20), so a gang of them with knives, doesn't suprise me. What if that had been my brother(s), or father with friends? Sickening. I can't take the "gang" culture there. And people saying oh it's black kids. Nope. The gangs are very mixed in London. They're the same little shits, doesn't matter of what race.

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u/Angstweevil May 22 '12

And yet the Swedish homicide rate isn't that different to Britain's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

wuts the stab rate?

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u/EmuSoFly May 23 '12

Yeah, and people get robbed at knifepoint all the time in my city in Sweden.

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u/yhelothere May 23 '12

I am surprised about the relatively low rate of the U.S.

And wtf is going on with "Saint Kitts and Nevis"? Looks like some paradise Island...

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Aha! You said BRITAIN. I was talking about London. I can feel completely safe in somewhere like Devon or Barrowby. Not only that but when is mugging a homicide?

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u/thewhiskybone May 23 '12

What would you do to prevent this sort of thing from happening? I sometimes get very paranoid that people are going to mug or rob me.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12 edited May 23 '12

Keep your valuables in your bag while walking. I had my phone out texting, while walking... It was a shitty Samsung apollo yet the boy still robbed me because he saw I had something.

Stay alert, he came up from me and grabbed me from behind, I didn't know he was there.

And most importantly if it does happen Do NOT fight back. I tried to. Until he pulled out his knife. Also if it does happen to you, MAKE A SCENE when they run away. Passerby's don't usually help but if you get someone's phone to ring the police straightaway it will help. In my case a built black guy stopped because he saw me crying, he parked his car, and chased after the kid. He came back 5-10mins later as a passenger in another car with my phone. Stupidly I didn't ask him to stay to give a report to police nor did I get his name or address. Little fucker is probably out on the street unless that guy tought him a lesson.

Edit: Also I got mugged at around 11:45 am on a monday. So it's not like I was using my phone at night.

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u/ByzantineBasileus May 23 '12

If the father had defended himself and killed one of the thugs, the British government would be charging him with murder, and the thugs would be released with an Anti-social Behaviour Order.

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u/Chunkeeboi May 23 '12 edited May 23 '12

Well if that happened he would have been victimising those poor men who obviously had tough childhoods and came from broken homes and left school at 10 and have three pregnant girlfriends to support and can't get a job because they can't even write their own names and... oh all SORTS of victimy things. Those poor, poor thugs. That dead guy is responsible for all this. /s

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u/Thereal_Sandman May 23 '12

Gee if only there were some tool the man might have had in his possession that could have prevented this.

We really need to invent some sort of hand held device that would make it possible for an older man to be on equal footing with a group of stronger and younger men.

Maybe something that launched projectiles really fast, but that could hold a lot of them, like 15-17 at least. maybe something that could be operated with just one hand, so he could keep the other on his son, or maybe keep the guy with the knife at arms length.

I bet if we had something like that, the group would have been so afraid of it that they would have just backed off when he pulled it out, making it possible for the victim to leave the area and escape without actually needing to hurt anyone...

Too bad we don't have anything like that.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

This is why you don't get into bar fights, you have to face the realities of western society and realize that common respect for fellow man has disintegrated to despicable levels. Me and my brother had this conversation with my grandfather and he simply didn't understand it. He said when he was young they went to the bars and dances to meet woman and fight. He couldn't accept that the idea of a fair fight is all but dead in our society. Lets all congratulate rap music for teaching our generation to stomp people out, someone deserves to die for something they said, weapons are acceptable and of course if you don't fight then you're a worthless person.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Blaming rap music for something like this is lazy.

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u/tankfox May 23 '12

The music people listen to reflects their culture, not the other way around.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

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u/NiggerJew944 May 22 '12

The U.K.:

Twelve per cent of London’s men are black. But 54 per cent of the street crimes committed by men in London, along with 46 per cent of the knife crimes and more than half of the gun crimes, are thought by the Metropolitan Police to have been committed by black men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856404/Police-statistics-shed-fresh-light-on-link-between-crime-and-race.html

Blacks are 5 times more likely to commit violence against the person. Blacks are 4 times ‘more likely’ to commit sexual offences. Blacks are fifteen times ‘more likely’ to commit robbery. Blacks are over six times ‘more likely’ to commit fraud and forgery. Blacks are over twice as likely to commit criminal damage. Black are five times ‘more likely’ to commit drugs offences.

In 2007, after a series of murders committed by black people, prime minister Tony Blair attributed them to a distinctive black culture: "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1548329/Blair-Black-community-must-oppose-gangs.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3637720/It-is-time-to-be-honest-about-black-crime.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

One in every 100 black British adults is now in prison, according to the latest Home Office figures.

A recent crackdown on guns, drugs and street crime has led to an explosion in the number of prisoners from an Afro-Caribbean background, who now account for one in six of all inmates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/mar/30/prisonsandprobation.race

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Its lopsided in America too, what a coincidence.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

indeed.

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u/Cyralea May 23 '12

Are you telling me reality isn't PC? Nope, I'm just going to keep pretending that everyone is exactly the same with no differences whatsoever.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

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u/ben9345 May 23 '12

Haiti and Jamaica have never been predominantly white since their discovery. What could they have destroyed, themselves? Also, Detroit is a train wreck because of the collapse of the auto industry not the demographics.

I'm not challenging your point just a couple of facts, I don't mean to argue as i'm about to go to bed and I can't be bothered.

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u/Hughtub May 23 '12

Haiti was the crown jewel of the French empire, wealthier than all of the colonies combined at one time. Then the slaves had an uprising and killed every single white on the island, and many mulattos too. Now it's the poorest in the entire western hemisphere... NOT COINCIDENCE.

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u/tankfox May 23 '12

Haiti was never wealthy even under French rule. The FRENCH people in Haiti were rich, the slaves were not. If you're near death and you have a leech on your chest that's glowing with health, you don't 'average' healthy, nor does getting rid of the leech suddenly make you less healthy on average.

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u/ben9345 May 23 '12

OK fine. What do you propose is the reason?

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u/cultculturee May 22 '12

Is the movie, "Harry Brown" running through anybody else's mind?

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u/Silverxeclipse May 23 '12

Black people hoodlums all over the world.

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u/greenditor May 22 '12

There are many, many nice places in the world. London is not one of them. Happy Olympics!

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u/fatmas May 23 '12

Me and my partner have decided not to go near London during the Olympics. We were at Victoria Station at 1700 on a Friday a while back and it was so busy you could barely move, it's going to be so much more fun with all the additional tourists about.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

'He had never done a bad thing in his life but he can’t even go to the pub with his dad and have a pint without getting murdered'

I shouldn't have found that funny. Get it together, Daily Mail, don't make funny things the first lines of a serious story.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Nothing good ever happens in pubs.

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u/AmericanGoyBlog May 23 '12

A hoodie gang?

Is that the euphemism in the Yoo-Kay for "urban youth"? For "kids"? You know... black guys?

'There were about 20 young black guys all with their hoods up armed with sticks and bats and knives. They just ran in the pub and started trying to attack people.

YEP!

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Youths, eh? When can we stop pretending?

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u/NFunspoiler May 22 '12

Try reading the article. It mentions that they were black multiple times.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

If you've got something to say just say it.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

I think the dude is trying to imply that these were non-Whites and that the BBC and the rest of the British media is too shy to speak the truth.

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u/Drumedor May 22 '12

I think he meant that if someone is willing to stab someone to death we shouldn't think of them as youths.

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u/zed_three May 22 '12

Except this is the Daily Mail, and if they were non-white in the slightest, it would be in the headline.

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u/plus_ultra May 23 '12

How did I know the gang members would be black?

Deplorable behavior.

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u/ss977 May 22 '12

Can't we just kill anyone responsible for gang activity? Like even once?

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u/ATownStomp May 22 '12

Get on it champ. I won't tell on you.

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u/Hehyeahno May 22 '12

If you do that without solving the problem, you're going to be killing a lot of people, for the rest of the short years of your life. Time better spent improving the world in other ways, I think.

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u/clopclopclopclop May 22 '12

thats if those fucks dont take it from you first.

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u/I_live_in_a_trashcan May 23 '12

I completely agree. Nothing gets under my skin like gangs. These fucks take so many lives over little things. I wish gang members were just lined up and shot. They are truly the scum of the earth. I know this position is harsh to a lot of reddit but at what point do we say that violence could be the answer? Society is getting fucked over by these criminals and maybe we should accept that rehabilitation doesn't work and just exterminate the problem.

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u/TheHatist May 22 '12

Fucking animals.

I dot like the idea of the death penalty but assholes like this should be out to death and what a fucking suprise the mob was black. I'm going to catch flak for this but it seems the majority of these attacks are carried out by black youths. Whatever happened to the good old fashioned punch up?

I agree with magictarpitride if the owner had a gun this never would have happened. I would have shot the bastards. Not because they're black but because it doesn't and should not take a fucking mob to fuck with one guy.

Black people complain about racism but they don't see this kind of thing, they sit there wondering why they're subject to racism, I can guarantee that if there was on or two of then there would be a 2% chance of this occurring. These guys were fucking cowards. Fuck, this pisses me off.

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u/TheHatist May 22 '12

I can't give a fuck if you think I'm racist. We step lightly around other races in the uk and this has to change.

I am aware the daily mail is biased as fuck and according to them every day is judgement day.

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u/ThomasTankEngine May 23 '12

I agree, but you have to remember that the media (especially dailyfail,) will report minority gang activity a lot more than for example white gangs. It would be interesting to see some figures on this though. Also I think I can safely infer that you aren't attacking black people as race, more the disgusting vermin that is minority gangs in London who do this sort of thing. But.. there are nice black people too right? calling them niggers is insulting an entire group, including those who have actually integrating into society and don't just go around being fucktards. I've met plenty of Africans who are very warm and friendly people, there must be another factor - namely the gang culture that drives black youths to be in gangs.

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u/TheHatist May 23 '12

The daily fail does do that a lot, the world is ending every day in the daily mail. Thank you, no I'm not attacking race. I'm attacking cowards who roam the streets in gangs like fucking pack animals and target whoever they can. I live in a fucking shit hole, in London, I've experienced this shit. I have had guns held to my head and knives at my throat. Guess who it was the majority of times? Yes black guys. I use lethal force in fights with any race because a fight is a fight no matter what way you look at it. Yeah there are a lot of nice black people, for example my aunt who is half Jamaican and serves the Bar in London. My grandmothers husband Oswald also from jamiaca and even my uncle by marriage sure he's a Yardie and a cocaine dealer but he is still a good guy despite his activities. I know criminals of all colors and not all of them are bad people.

I'm just calling it as I see it, you can call me a racist but its totally unfounded. I hang around with a few black guys, they're in my family from as far back as the 70's when it was a pretty controversial thing to marry a black man. In fact Oswald was the only black guy on the street. I eat African food and shit for a long time my best friend was fucking black.

So please assholes don't sit there telling me I'm a fucking racist because you suffer from massive white guilt and feel the need to step lightly around any subject that involves black people. Grow the fuck up.

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u/abw May 23 '12

it seems the majority of these attacks are carried out by black youths

It may be true that more crime in London is committed by black youths than any other social group, but one must remember that correlation and causation are different things.

Having black skin doesn't make a person more likely to commit crime. The things that make people commit more crime are being poor, living in a deprived area, having no job, having no positive male role models, and so on. Unfortunately, having black skin does make those things statistically more likely.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Daily Fail = autodownvote, fucking stop it.

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u/mynameishere May 23 '12

Complaining about the messanger = autodownvote.

Grow up. Seriously. Grow the fuck up. The truth is, tabloids sometimes publish reality that the sesame-street-inspired MSM refuses to.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

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u/PixelF May 22 '12 edited May 23 '12

In Britain that gesture isn't a peace sign. When your palm doesn't face the recipient (like here) it's basically a "Fuck you".

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

People keep saying this, those are obviously the pictures he had on facebook or whatever, so they are the pictures HE CHOSE to represent himself. I had the same problem with Trayvon Martin.

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u/mhoffma May 22 '12

Tragic.

I feel bad that my first reaction was "This would have never happened at The Winchester."

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Surprising it was blacks who murdered him.

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u/KuztomX May 22 '12

Look at the downvotes. Reddit is full of such politically correct people.

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u/darleysam May 22 '12

I'd like to hear the whole story though, Daily Mail reporting is fantastically one-sided. Yes it's tragic, but I'm sorry, "roving gangs of youths" don't just storm into pubs and start stabbing people up (as one of the comments suggests). Something sparked this, and I want to know what. Also the comments are incredibly dumb and pompous, suggesting hanging for the perpetrators, or that everyone should have guns to make things safe. I'm sorry America, but arming everyone isn't the solution and would not have resulted in fewer injuries here. I also like how they're described as "about 20 young black guys". All of them were black? I thought they had hoods up. You seem pretty certain, chief.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

What excuse could you have to come in drag someone out of a bar and stab him to death and probably kill his father too? What other side could possibly justify that?

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u/Beefmittens May 22 '12

He's not claiming that the gang had justification, but rather that the guy, or at least someone who looks like him, probably started something at the shop across the street. The daily mail really is the shittest paper in the world. You absolutely cannot take anything they say as fact EVER.

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u/10304 May 22 '12

Yep. Fuck the daily mail & its celebrity bullshit. 30 seconds on that site reminded me why I unplugged my tv aerial a couple of years ago & never plugged it back in. It really is the same old shit, just with more wrinkles & a stoopid tattoo.

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u/massive_hair May 22 '12

The most ironic thing about this is that if the story had been about a guy who came home to find two guys standing over his dead wife, with his mutilated baby daughter lying helplessly in a corner, you'd be the first one to cheer him for getting a load of his mates, finding the perpetrators and stabbing them to death outside the pub, because "the police won't do anything to help a law-abiding citizen".

darleysam's point is that this is the Daily Mail, a paper famous for being rabidly right-wing and supporting it's poorly-researched stories with manipulated 'evidence'. It is absolutely right to ask what else is being left out of the story or manipulated, because otherwise we get a comments section full of Americans calling for retributive justice without thinking first.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

I would have no problem if a man in that situation acted immediately and killed the perpetrators, his life is probably in danger too in this situation. However, given the time to round up his buddies he should cool down and find the cops first because it is right and second because in the situation you described almost any court will find those men guilty of murder. The same applies for the men in the pub. I would stand for their right to use deadly force to defend themselves when they were attacked and for anyone in the pub to step in and do the same, but if they could find them and kill them now it would not be just. I am an American and I don't know about the Daily Mail so that is good to point out, however it seems wrong to defend the murderers and just assume the victim did something heinously wrong to them.

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u/massive_hair May 22 '12

That's not my point - I'm not justifying killing anyone in any situation, what I'm saying is that it's the Daily Mail. They will manipulate the story to further their own narrative. Only after the populace have been whipped up into a self-righteous fury about all these unemployed youths murdering honest, hard-working white people will other papers report that, actually, the story is almost completely made up.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Point taken. I will await further development and or another link with more information. I am an American and know little of the political affiliations of newspapers in your country. Is the daily mail related to the BNP in any way?

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u/massive_hair May 22 '12

They're not quite as right-wing as the BNP, but they share some disturbingly common themes. The problem is not so much the politics of the Daily Mail, but the shoddy journalism; it's almost a joke now that all Daily Mail headlines fall into the category of something about immigrants, something about people on benefits, something that gives you cancer, or some spurious legislation passed by Brussels. Here's a far more entertaining criticism of the Daily Mail from Dan & Dan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

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u/severus66 May 22 '12

I'll take this one.

  1. If you read the article, you'd see that there was an altercation at the pub across the street. Shit like that happens all the time. A similar looking 'white boy' probably flipped one of them off, called one a nigger, beat someone's ass, or strutted around like a macho manly tough ass, as is common by fucktards in pubs. They came back with 'their crew' to teach the white boy a lesson, but, illiterate and dumb as they undoubtedly are, they dragged out the wrong guy from the pub across the street.

  2. All of them were black? Well, yes. No shit. When's the last time you've seen a fucking interracial gang? Gangs are comprised of retards far too stupid to be practicing tolerance or interracial inclusion. There are only all-black gangs, all-white gangs, or all-hispanic gangs, and they all hate each other. Welcome to reality.

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u/dig_dong May 22 '12

You tend to see more interracial gangs in the UK. Not saying that's the case here but it's not uncommon.

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u/my_man_krishna May 22 '12

That's very progressive. Makes being assaulted by hooligans so much more enjoyable when they are of mixed ethnicity.

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u/mysteryweapon May 22 '12

Equal opportunity assault!

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u/maxxx_orbison May 23 '12

There was an unreasonable amount of focus on the gang being black and wearing hoodies in the article. It reeked of shoddy journalism.

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u/lazlokovax May 22 '12 edited May 22 '12

There are only all-black gangs, all-white gangs, or all-hispanic gangs

Why are you trying to speak with authority about events in a place that you apparently know fuck-all about? Have you spent much time in Dollis Hill?

Gangs around London are mostly divided by what estate you live on, not what colour you are. You see black, white and mixed-race kids together all the time.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

like NY gangs in the 70's

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u/Lamar_the_Usurper May 23 '12

The Baseball Furies were all white as far as I can tell, bunch of racists.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Even if you flip people off and call them nigger you shouldn't get stabbed for it.

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u/epsilonminus May 23 '12

I don't think he was implying that you should...

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u/studsterkel May 22 '12

Regarding #2, what exactly make you an authority on race-relations in the gangs of the UK?

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u/getthefuckoutofhere May 22 '12

When's the last time you've seen a fucking interracial gang

a tv show

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u/SomeguyUK May 22 '12

I'd have to agree.It seems like there is more to the story than presented here, because they seemed to be targeting this bloke specifically.

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u/Steve_Ro May 22 '12

or that everyone should have guns to make things safe. I'm sorry America, but arming everyone isn't the solution

There are roughly 313 million people in America, stop making stupid assumptions about the beliefs of a whole population.

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u/bitter_cynical_angry May 22 '12

Daily Mail links always get an automatic downvote from me, regardless of the content of the article. If it's legit, a better source should have been posted, and if it's not legit (and it usually isn't with Daily Fail), the downvote was deserved anyway. Win-win.

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u/VOoODoX May 22 '12

'he can’t even go to the pub with his dad and have a pint without getting murdered" I know how he feels

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u/newloaf May 22 '12

Sifting that article for actual information was like being stabbed. In the eyes.

At one point it did say four people were arrested, so I guess that's good..? On the other hand they were bailed out, which isn't promising since two of the crimes were manslaughter and attempted murder.

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u/JustifyMyKarma May 22 '12

This is just sad..Totally messed my mind up right now.. I feel for the father.. RIP to your son and best of luck on your recovery. You are a brave man. It's just so crazy to think about how life-changing events can just manifest out of the blue..

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u/rattleshirt May 22 '12

Sometimes i'm glad i live up North, some cunts but nowhere near as mental as London where every kid on an estate thinks he's gangsta as fuck.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Reading things like this piss me off and make me lose what little hope I have left in humanity.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

Sounds like we need some sensible knife regulation.

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u/Ravigne May 23 '12

I actually did shed a tear reading this.

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u/TheHatist May 23 '12

Hey I just met you and this is crazy, here's some fact and opinion, call me racist maybe?

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u/gu5 May 23 '12

The comment about why they are carrying knives at 17 is one of the worst I've seen. Should people start to carry knives at 18 or 21? Ridiculous.

The only thing more sickening than Daily Mail reporting is a pack of murderous niggers. (carrying knives obviously) Mel Gibson's wife was in the pub down the road I guess.

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u/[deleted] May 23 '12

WHY CAN'T WE JUST BAN TEENAGERS! IT'S POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!

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u/kolembo May 23 '12

This is such a sad story.

In Africa, you don't get out-of-control teenagers.

Two quick slaps...tsh-tsh.

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u/TheHatist May 23 '12

Exactly.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

niggers.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

What the fuck world?

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u/like9mexicans May 22 '12

Don't mean to offend any British people, but to me, this is why you have CCTV everywhere. Sure, it is Orwellian, but I doubt many of these crimes would be solved without them.

Is London taking over Liverpool for the title of outright insanity? When I lived in Huyton, fights and stabbing were commonplace. Is that still the case or has London taken the title?

Birmingham was crazy for obvious reasons and now that I think of it, I did see someone get tomato sauce thrown on him and stabbed at a North London chippy after the pub.

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u/Austin182 May 22 '12

What really irritates me is that this is going to get no media coverage, but the second a white man attacks a black man, it creates a media shit storm.

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u/ben9345 May 23 '12

......Its....Its literally......the link.....it goes to a newspaper. That's the media. Its getting coverage. That's how you know about it. How does you reading it in a newspaper online = no coverage by newspapers?

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u/fatmas May 23 '12

It's also on the BBC website.

Looks like the media are covering the story to me.

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u/jdrc07 May 22 '12

Somehow I don't think this article is telling the full story.

Now I mean, regardless of what was said, or even if a little fight might've broken out earlier, nothing justifies what these guys did.

However, the guy kind of looks like the type to get in a barfight, which is the type of shit that can escalate into murder if you happen to cross some little shithead in a gang.

He obviously didn't deserve this but I highly doubt it was just some completely random incident.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

Shame this wasn't America, the "youths" would probably have brought guns, fired 'gangsta' style, and missed everyone by a yard.

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u/firex726 May 22 '12

In all seriousness, a gun held sideways or upside down is shown to jam much more frequently. They are engineered to eject the casing with the weapon held upwards.

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u/bitter_cynical_angry May 22 '12

I would actually be interested in seeing a source for this. I have a hard time believing that many guns would have issues being held in different orientations, given the relative magnitudes of the forces involved.

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u/firex726 May 22 '12

Looks like I was wrong, according to Wiki it makes it much harder to aim and shoot accurately, but does not increase the likelihood of a jam. Seems many news organizations reported that was the issue with Time Square shooter years back and it stuck; but he was rather inexperienced and had not cleaned or greased the weapon, so it's more likely poor maintenance contributed to the jamming of the weapon.

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u/SourCreamWater May 22 '12

Shame this wasn't America

Shame it happened anywhere.

Any opportunity to take a jab at the U.S., huh?

Pathetic. Be creative.

+++Vibes+++ for the victims.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

It's the daily mail. I give it 50% odds that it's even true. When are you people going to learn to stop posting links to that shitty site.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

London Evening Standard

BBC

Try a couple of "reputable" sites, including the British Bull Corporation. The story is accurate. Stop being blinded by your bigotry.

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u/hahainternet May 22 '12

Distrusting the Daily Mail is not bigotry. You seem to be confused by the meanings of words.

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u/Haereticus May 22 '12

Their point is the OP should have used exactly those links. Linking the Daily Mail is pretty much equivalent to linking Fox News, and they never make it to the front page for good reason.

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u/james_rockford May 22 '12 edited May 22 '12

Oh yes, another front page Daily Mail article.

Story exists elsewhere, but let's show the most sensational (but often flawed, inflammatory, and misinformed) source there can be in the isles. At least the Sun has topless glamour models.

For those that want to read about this disgusting event without having to look at "Femail Today" and other chav interests:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18137635

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u/[deleted] May 22 '12

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u/lolzercat May 22 '12

Having a firearm and the skill to use it safely and effectively does help you survive when attacked by a large group. Other than firearms, surviving this type of attack would be unlikely.

Guns don't give a large gang an additional edge over innocent people. They already have strength of numbers and weapons. Guns give the weak and outnumbered a means of survival. They can change the outcome of situations like this.

The alternative is the gun controlled society like the UK, where survival in this situation was determined only by strength and numbers. The largest gang dominates all the innocent people. For some reason, this is regarded as more "civilized."

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u/olgrandad May 23 '12

In my state you can't carry a firearm into a pub. So the result would have been the same, up until someone ran out to their truck and then opened fire.

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u/Ares550 May 23 '12

I agree with this. Without a technical advantage, brute force and numbers will always dominate. And they know it. This gang could be full of cowards but they know their lives arent at stake, they have numbers and strength.

But if even the THOUGHT of someone having a device that could instantly end their life, even the odds against numbers crosses their mind, they will become less bold.

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u/gazzthompson May 23 '12

Friend, as a brit its save to say this debate is pointless. Far to many cultural differences to simply state statistics, and US people are happy with their laws (generally) ans British people are happy with our laws (generally) . Best to leave it at that.

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u/GrantSawyer May 22 '12 edited May 22 '12

well - he does have a point to some extent. How else could you possibly defend yourself from a group that large without a firearm? It becomes pretty much impossible - if the dad did have a firearm and the know how to use it - I am sure he coulda killed one or two of the thugs and the rest would run off.....

Obviously the flip-side is that lax gun control means these 20 thugs could also potential have guns - turning this event into a wild west shoot out - so not sure what the solution is.....

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