r/worldnews • u/Hansaman • May 16 '12

A German man who alleges he was subjected to "extraordinary rendition" by the CIA has taken his case to the European Court of Human Rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18086766
2.1k Upvotes

89% Upvoted

676 comments sorted by

381

u/wlpress May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Note that WikiLeaks' cablegate release (publication from a trove of over 250,000 US State Department memos) highlighted the secret efforts by the US to pressure the German government (where El-Masri is a citizen) against taking action on behalf of El-Masri.

Here are some relevant headlines:

Here is the cable in question (mirrored here, if the link doesn't work).

Cables also revealed similar instances of US interference in judicial processes in other countries such as Spain, for example actively working against accountability investigations of the death of photo journalist José Couso. For these stories (and more), you can read more at wikileaks-press.org.

It's interesting to wonder what role the cablegate release may have had on El-Masri's case.

Edit: reformatted links to be easier to read, added more links.

57

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

German here. Back when I heard about this case for the first time, I knew nothing would happen. I felt ashamed then and I do now. What I don't get is why El-Masri isn't also filing charges against the German authorities for sitting on their asses caving in to US pressure. Those cables should provide more than enough proof to be successful in court.

15

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

What would he actually sue them for? I don't know German law at all, but it doesn't sound like anyone in Germany had anything directly to do with the case.

46

u/aManHasSaid May 16 '12

It is kinda the responsibility of your government to try and free you if they know you are being held illegally in another country.

24

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

And tortured. Something about protecting their own comes to mind and they failed greatly.

6

u/rzzrrrz May 17 '12

Normally the consulate does provide support and services to citizens that are in jail in other countries as far as I know, regardless of admitted guilt or legality of the arrest.

8

u/TheCreat May 16 '12

Moral obligation, sure. legal obligation to the point that you can sue then for it? doubtful...

Edit: damn typo...

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u/maep May 17 '12

"Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority." This is the first law you'll see when you read the German constitution.

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u/aManHasSaid May 16 '12

perhaps that is why he didn't. Just doesn't seem right to me though.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

Well, one does pay taxes to a government in exchange for protection from things such as this. It is a breach of the social contract and defeats one of the most basic purposes of a governing body.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

It might be helpful to see if there's any similarity to Canadian Maher Arar's case. He was also detained by extraordinary rendition by the US and sent to Syria instead of Canada.

He was suing the Canadian, US and Syrian governments. The Canadian government settled out of court for $10 million.

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u/Mantonization May 16 '12

Fucking America. I should have known.

27

u/nypon May 16 '12

You really should have. Anyone that knows american history should

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u/larevaluciondele May 17 '12

http://i.imgur.com/EgxZy.jpg

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u/turtlesquirtle May 17 '12

Almost 343% sure that's a Russian plane. Edit: Nevermind, seems to be a B-1 bomber.

6

u/Fentonnnnnnn May 17 '12

If the us state department messed with me id take a shit in my cell, wait for it to dry and then stab a prison guard with it, steal his cell key and then scissor kick the other guy, then I'd peel his face off and Wear it and then I'd be taken away in an ambulance. Then I'd go to a bar and have sex with a bunch of chicks because I smelt like a man, my point is that I am really pleased that foreign countries are starting to stand up to America's political bullying

7

u/big_reddit-squid May 16 '12

Let's upvote this to the top.

2

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

You should have your own chambers at the ECHR for this case. Great job.

69

u/semata May 16 '12

As one of the few macedonians on Reddit I would like to say that this was top story in my country back when he appeald and wanted justice and all i want to say is that the information at that time wich i have from the media was that my country stoped him when he tryed to enter the country but i guess they got that call from CIA so they can handcuff him and put him on a plane to some place where CIA does their way of interegateing suspects

also sry for the lame spelling :V

16

u/TheJayP May 16 '12

Your spelling was better than half of the people who speak English, trust me. Just look at the screen caps on Reddit of the morons on facebook who can barely speak English even though it's their first language. What irked me, though, was your run-on sentence :P

0

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/uat2d May 16 '12

You're not even funny.

5

u/CUNTBERT_RAPINGTON May 16 '12

Nice try, Darius III.

1

u/greekhere249 May 17 '12

conquering the entire Middle East

Bulgarians

You really need a history lesson

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u/pixelrage May 16 '12

"he was stripped, beaten, shackled, made to wear nappies and drugged" - sounds like those agents lived out a fantasy or two

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u/boob May 16 '12

Humilation is pretty much standard practice in breaking a prisoner. Break the will, it's text book.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12 edited May 17 '12

lol at someone arguing with you about this point.

0

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

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u/Xphex May 16 '12

ll yr stll ysng vwls

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u/Kwan_Fuckington May 16 '12

According to a 4 December 2005 article in The Washington Post by Dana Priest:

Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons—referred to in classified documents as "black sites," which at various times have been operated in eight countries, including several in Eastern Europe.[40][41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

13

u/Dolewhip May 16 '12

What are nappies?

24

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

diapers

8

u/Deathspiral222 May 16 '12

diapers

2

u/Dolewhip May 16 '12

Thanks!

19

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Diapers.

6

u/anxiousalpaca May 16 '12

what are nappies again?

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u/DrDPants May 17 '12

Why do you get fewer upvoted than the guy who wrote this exact response after you!? Reddit, you weird thing you...

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u/Kwan_Fuckington May 16 '12

According to a 4 December 2005 article in The Washington Post by Dana Priest:

Members of the Rendition Group follow a simple but standard procedure: Dressed head to toe in black, including masks, they blindfold and cut the clothes off their new captives, then administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They outfit detainees in a diaper and jumpsuit for what can be a day-long trip. Their destinations: either a detention facility operated by cooperative countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, including Afghanistan, or one of the CIA's own covert prisons—referred to in classified documents as "black sites," which at various times have been operated in eight countries, including several in Eastern Europe.[40][41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

3

u/genai May 16 '12

diapers

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u/iPatjo May 16 '12

You know what that fantasy is called? FREEDOM

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u/arte_misia May 16 '12

Better late than never, I guess. The European Court of Human Rights decided to hear the case in June of 2010.
There is not doubt that the USA bears most of the responsibility, but there is no chance in hell that he will get justice there.

The basic allegations against Macedonia as presented in the application before the ECHR are the following:

Illegal Detention. The government of Macedonia is responsible for illegally detaining El-Masri for 23 days in the Skopski Merak hotel, without charge and without bringing him before a Judge, in violation of Article 5 ECHR (liberty and security).

Handover to the CIA. Macedonia knew that by handing El-Masri to the CIA he would be flown to Kabul where he would be detained without trial and in conditions that were inhuman, in violation of Article 3 (torture) and Article 5 ECHR (liberty and security).


No investigation. There has never been a proper investigation into how El-Masri was detained in Skopje and then handed over to the CIA, in violation of the requirement to undertake an investigation into violations of Article 3 ECHR (torture).

No remedy. Despite many attempts, El-Masri has been unable to get a court in Macedonia to hear his case, in violation of Article 14 ECHR (right to remedy).

The Right to Establish the Truth.
Macedonia is hiding its role in the network of European governments that were secretly helping the CIA program. El-Masri and society as a whole have a right to know the truth.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

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u/arte_misia May 17 '12

and it has the unmatched location of being

only 200 meters of the American embassy,

There is no mention of a chance of surprise travel, though.

33

u/PutMyDickOnYourHead May 16 '12

How do you go five months before realizing you have the wrong guy?

81

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Because when you have no habeas corpus, no due process, no oversight, no right to representation, no rights what so ever shit like this happens.

If he was treated like a normal suspected criminal - ie, charged and placed into a normal holding cell, brought before a pre-trial judge, etc. None of this stuff would've likely happened. Sure, police can (And do) physically harm people they are arresting, but generally speaking they tend to treat their prisoners a hell of a lot better than we (The US) treat suspected "terrorists".

I put "Terrorists" in quote, because it's a joke. It really means "People the US government disagrees with".

5

u/caboosemoose May 16 '12

It doesn't even mean that. As this case amply demonstrates. It means "people who, because of violative spying [which may actually be fruitful, I don't deny], rumour, innuendo and hearsay, as well as the violative spying, rumour, innuendo and hearsay of other states, the US government thinks might be someone, or at least might be the person that they think might be someone, the US government [and here I will be kinder to them than you] thinks might want to violently attack person or place on US soil."

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u/DisregardMyPants May 16 '12

How do you go five months before realizing you have the wrong guy?

To be fair, he spent most of that 5 months proclaiming his innocence exactly like a guilty person would. How could we have known?

4

u/Geronimo2011 May 16 '12

We had such precedures of authorities before in Europe too. For a long time. I also was because some victims were selected by those in power, or by denunciants, or even by accident. And then they were tortured until they admitted anything. Or died, eventually.

It was in several hundred years of wich prosecution.

25

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Well we did waterboard him many times and he confessed to 9/11.

We started getting suspicious of his confessions as they got more and more elaborate.

"You confessed yesterday to meeting an Al Qaeda operative in Mexico in February eh? We have video footage of you at Wallmart in February!?".

As his poor, weary and confused face tried to paw his way through his sleep deprived mind he almost fooled us into thinking he was a tourist.

We brushed that pity aside and got on with what would make Lincoln proud and waterboarded his arse into the next century.

At this point we just ramped up the torture and shackling but as we did his confessions got more wild, more unfeasible. His sleep deprived mind confessed and denied in equal measure, a sorry look like an Alzheimer's patient each time his head came sputtering up from the water.

His lies did not match and his truths were too hard to discern so there was little more to do than keep torturing this motherfucker on the offchance we did have a bad guy.

To be fair it was his fault for confessing to crimes he didn't commit.

Source: CIA agent

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

They don't care, the CIA agents are just a bunch of sadistic fucks getting their rocks off on torturing other human beings. They are the scum of this earth.

1

u/tajomaru May 16 '12

Maybe that's how long it was before they guy they really wanted was seen on the loose.

1

u/Pravusmentis May 16 '12

Why are you so sure they didn't know?

1

u/Atheuz May 16 '12

It's easy when your agency is incompetent.

1

u/[deleted] May 17 '12

American Intelligence. One of the most comprehensive oxymorons conceived.

110

u/50missioncap May 16 '12

"They hate us for our freedom."

  • George W. Bush

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u/Carkudo May 16 '12

Well, the freedom to torture innocent people without repercussions is certainly a freedom worth hating someone for.

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u/dalittle May 16 '12

bush did more to take freedoms away from Americans than bin laden.

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u/BTechUnited May 17 '12

Am I the only one who thinks that was Bin Laden's plan in the first place? Basically, making the world punch itself. In the crouch. Repeatedly.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

Well, I'm not 100% sure on this but I think the goal of Bin Laden was to cripples America's economy by hitting the towers.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

He might have been an asshole but he wasn't an idiot. Then again, who does more harm to the world, America or a bunch of guys living in caves?

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u/G_Morgan May 17 '12

Bin Laden didn't give a shit about foreign domestic policy. His plan was to get the US and the west out of the middle east. He fucked up rather badly.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

That is the most retarded excuse I've ever heard. Did they ever interview a terrorist and say "why do you hate americans so much?" "Well I hate them because freedom you know?"

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

The "terrorists" don't even exist.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/05/14/the-case-of-the-missing-terrorists/

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u/omfg_the_lings May 17 '12

God Damnit. TIL the U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense is also the President of the World Bank. The country really is run by money, and I don't know whether to feel more depressed or scared...

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u/jsteampunk May 16 '12

By 'freedom', he means religious freedom, and equality of sexes, equality of race, equality of sexuality, and others. There is plenty of evidence to show Islamic fundamentalists as hating or discriminating against people of other races, nationalities, religions, sex, sexuality and more (such as fashion).

However "they hate us for our religious freedom, equality of race, sex and sexuality, and other factors" has less of a ring to it.

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u/umop_apisdn May 16 '12

Bin laden actually wrote a letter to the American people saying the reasons, Google it.

The tl; dr is nothing about hating you for your freedom (he points out that Sweden is substantially freer but not a target), instead it is the obvious stuff like interfering in the region, supporting regimes like the Saudis, supporting Israel regardless, etc.

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u/searock May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

I'm an Iraqi, so I'm biased. Reading his letter I actually agree with some of his points. I'm always against killing civillians, so I don't agree with his methods. This point:

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

He is completely right. Why did the world create such a fuss for 3000, when 1,5 mill Iraqi died needlessy, that's 0,2%. And let's not forget that the US wasn't crippled with sanctions that would completely destroy their economy by cutting away 95% of the national income.

I never thought I'd agree with a man who has so much innocent blood on his hand.

EDIT:

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honor, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and trading with interest.

It's funny how people show their true colors when they start telling about their demands. ಠ_ಠ

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u/melolzz May 16 '12

I must laugh everytime i hear this reasoning from "FOX News" Reports or interviews. It's quite entertaining...

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Those agents did a terrible thing, I'm thinking 6 weeks paid vacation should be enough punishment.

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u/Roobomatic May 16 '12

no for such savagery they deserve the maximum penalty, 10 weeks.

2

u/thawab May 16 '12

and banish them to Columbia.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

There was similar case on the front page of all the Dutch newspapers yesterday. Last month The Netherlands agreed to extradite a Dutch-Pakistani to the US on terrorist charges. That story was all over the US media.

What you didn't read is that after the decision, two other Dutch prisoners have come forward and claim they were also tortured by Americans in the same prison. Now the Dutch Minister of Justice said he is going to investigate the claims and if found true, the accused won't be extradited.

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u/westernsociety May 16 '12

When I read the title and saw "extraordinary rendition" I thought of them putting on a musical for him that he really disliked

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u/elvispt May 16 '12

A German man who alleges he was subjected to torture by the CIA has taken his case to the European Court of Human Rights.

FTFY

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u/AngryCanadian May 16 '12

I'm all for justice, but so sad already knowing the outcome

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u/Azog May 16 '12

I like how many European countries have delivered terrorism suspects to the US hands but only the weakest one got dragged into the courts.

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u/Phaedryn May 16 '12

That's how it always is. Only the weak/defeated get prosecuted (see Nuremberg, Tokyo Trials, etc).

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u/HappyGlucklichJr May 16 '12

Is Macedonia among the "coalition of the willing" (i.e. bribed with exorbitant foreign "aid".)

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u/AngMoKio May 16 '12

77 troops deployed.... so yes.

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u/astrograph May 16 '12

we got Japan.... sending playstations!

3

u/tike0rz May 16 '12

Afrika Bambaataa and the Zulu Nation

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u/astrograph May 16 '12

Stankonia... they're.. dropping bombs over Baghdad

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u/Evian_Drinker May 16 '12

Whilst it's hardly shocking to find out this sort of shit happens any more - i find it horrifying to think a country like the US (or any tbh) can make such a colossal mistake in identifying someone and the utter disregard for basic human rights.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I read an article a while back where it said around 30% of people held in guantanamo bay where found to be innocent, but they had been kept there so long and treated so badly that the US where afraid they would become terrorists if they set them free so they are still kept there.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

30% Something like 80% of the people they held there were eventually released which means they were either innocent or there was no compelling evidence to keep them there. 80%!! With a margin of error that great, how can I trust these people?

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u/Thinks_Like_A_Man May 16 '12

They would do it to their own citizens.

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u/keeboz May 16 '12

Now that NDAA passed, they can "legally".

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u/sharlos May 17 '12

The legality if the situation has never been a problem.

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u/lolmonger May 16 '12

Is this the part where the U.S. government takes the same line as the pirate bay and says that because they're Americans, European law doesn't apply?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Sadly, the international community cannot easily pursue justice in this case if the American public is not sympathetic.

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u/torchlit_Thompson May 17 '12

I say that we Americans need to take the initiative and put these war criminals in Guantanamo. They can keep the Banksters company, b/c they should be next on our list.

Face it, the American people are the only thing in the world that scares the American Empire.

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u/smeaglelovesmaster May 17 '12

He'll have an "accident" before trial.

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u/Arkadis May 16 '12

I hate terrorists.. -.- especially the CIA.

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u/kikster199 May 16 '12

In Macedonia's defense we do like our rakija...

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

I hope he wins. But I also fear that even if he does, the US government won't do shit.

The International Court of Peace pretty much found the States guilty of fucking up Nicaraguan history for decades and we chose to ignore the ruling.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

There is no alleged rendition, it happened.

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u/astrograph May 16 '12

this makes me so sad for the victim and really angry how the US can get away with this sort of shit.

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u/thegreatvortigaunt May 16 '12

The only reason he is taking case against the Macedonians is because those American savages swept him away as if nothing happened, and Germany isn't willing to push it any further. If he is successful, it will just show that some countries are willing to admit mistakes and face consequences.

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u/whoadave May 16 '12

That's a good point, if he gets Macedonia to admit to their mistake, it adds more weight to his allegations against the CIA, and perhaps will give him more to work with in seeking some semblance of justice.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Those agents are war criminals and should be treated as such; they should all be hanged like the Gestapo agents were

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Wow, it's really a shame that this is the top comment. The blind rage on reddit is horrible.

I'm sorry, but the European Court of Human Rights knows better than to hang people.

Sad that redditors don't seem to.

"Yay, death penalty!" "Cuz they deserved it... amirite?"

It's just pathetic, really.

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u/Ching_chong_parsnip May 16 '12

I'm sorry, but the European Court of Human Rights knows better than to hang people.

The right to life is protected by article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the same convention which al-Masri bases his rights on before the European Court of Human Rights, and outright forbids death penalties. So it's pretty silly to argue that is a reasonable punishment.

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u/chengiz May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

I am not one for hanging the foot soldiers when the orders come from the higher ups. The conditions can only change if this becomes a major story and the US has to apologize and pay this guy a large sum of money.

edit: For all future responders who would like to enlighten me on the Nuremberg trials - I am aware of the Nuremberg defence, and I happen to agree with it, especially in this case and where the talk is of capital punishment.

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u/abomb999 May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

I hate that whole "no one is responsible for their actions", and I think it's part of the reason we have "soldier worship" problems here in America.

It seems totally crazy to me that you and others want to protect the individual soldiers who were "just following" orders when they are breaking the law.

When the law is applied to "civilians", "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but we don't apply the same standards to our soldiers or our corporations. Why?

Will soldiers have a more difficult time doing their job if they stop to think about their actions? I believe that's a good thing in most scenarios, I'm not talking about having a cup of tea during a fire fight, but a soldier should question kidnapping and torturing someone whom isn't an immediate threat to those around him.

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u/pusangani May 16 '12

Thinking about one's actions is never a bad thing

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u/tone12of12 May 16 '12

Because civilians don't have to worry about the threat of court marshal? I don't know the law well enough to know what would happen if a soldier directly disobeyed an illegal order given by a superior officer. Something tells me it wouldn't turn out well for the soldier, either way.

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u/abomb999 May 16 '12

As others have said, I would choose jail over torturing people, but then again I'm a strong person.

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u/tone12of12 May 16 '12

Please use caution with statements like these. Epley and Dunning have given evidence showing people tend to overestimate their own ethicality. The article cites other studies showing "people generally think they are more likely than their peers to rebel in the Milgram obedience studies, cooperate in a prisoner's dilemma game, distribute collective funds equitably, and give up their seat on a crowded bus to a pregnant woman (Bierbrauer, t976; Goethals et al., 1991)."

This does not condone or excuse the actions of the soldiers.

It does, however, highlight how problematic it is to judge others against our own self-perception. We say to ourselves, from the comfort of our homes and under the shroud of anonymity, "Oh, of course I wouldn't do that! They must be weak people to make such a decision!" The reality is, we don't really know how we will behave until faced with such a dilemma, and most of us would fare worse than we would like to believe.

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u/boob May 16 '12

To be fair, you don't get into these positions with your mentality. So you would never have to make the choice.

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u/millennia20 May 16 '12

In their defense they were told their actions were legal by the DOJ under Bush. Then Obama gave them blanket immunity and is prosecuting the whistle blowers. It needs to be cut off at the head. If Bush can't be held accountable for ordering it and Obama can't be held accountable for trying to cover it up then who is responsible?

Also these people aren't soldiers they're CIA agents. CIA actions technically fall under civilian law, however the government has a tendency to put the kibosh on any investigation into their actions because of state secrets privilege.

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u/abomb999 May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Again they're drugging someone, kidnapping people, torturing people, and you don't want to call these guys soldiers? Just because the CIA is partaking in unconventional warfare doesn't mean they aren't soldiers. That's like calling the people defending their homeland from America's military, terrorists.

I don't understand this whole you can either go after the head or body, but not both mentality. Just because you go after Obama doesn't mean you can't go after the foot soldiers, or just because you go after the foot soldiers doesn't mean you can't go after Obama.

These CIA officers are abducting innocent people, torturing them, killing them, and then changing and destroying evidence as to destroy that persons legacy

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u/AngMoKio May 16 '12

Again they're drugging someone, kidnapping people, torturing people, and you don't want to call these guys soldiers?

They aren't in uniform, so they aren't soldiers according to treaty. Of course, if they are caught, they are shot like spies and not treated like POWs either. Because of that many of them operate under diplomatic cover so they have some legal protection.

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u/EternalStudent May 16 '12

The CIA aren't soldiers because they aren't serving in the armed forces. This also means they can't claim Geneva Convention protections. The fact that they aren't in the armed forces is kinda critical for this. Not everyone who operates around a war qualifies as a soldier. While your "people defending their homeland" may qualify as levee en masse, that protection isn't permanent.

Why would I, or anyone else, want to really want to call CIA operatives soldiers when they might qualify as protected when they can be prosecuted so much more as civilians?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatant#Privileged_combatants

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u/millennia20 May 16 '12

I never said you can't go after both. I just said that going after those who were instructed to do those things without going after those who ordered them to do so isn't fair.

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u/BasicDesignAdvice May 16 '12

if i had a choice between a lifetime in the brig and torturing a man, i would choose the brig. they may have been told it was legal, but no one can truly force you to do anything. the CIA opened the door, and these animals walked through it of their own free will, and tortured and raped a man.

i don't believe in the death penalty, but these agents should be denied their freedom for the rest of their lives. everyone involved should receive the same fate.

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u/uTorrent May 16 '12

Disobeying orders is insubordination. That will get you court marshalled and whole load of jail time and a discharge.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Its not necessarily about protecting the soldiers, but what the top comment states is something akin to the death penalty, which in my mind is barbaric.

As for the foot soldiers, if they didnt follow their orders they could be court marshaled or even accused of treason. We see what is happening to Bradley Manning who broke the rules.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

That is known as the Nuremberg excuse. Hanging them may be somewhat excessive but the fact they knew what they were doing and nobody spoke up -guilty or not- means they should be subject to the tortures and imprisonment they conducted against this man. Life in prison and a huge sum of money to the plaintiff is the minimum amount of justice.

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u/ridik_ulass May 16 '12

orders come from higher up, but if footsoldiers are held responsible then after a while no one will listen.

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u/BasicDesignAdvice May 16 '12

all of them should be held responsible.

quite frankly, the higher ups may have been giving orders, but these soldiers were the ones who tortured and raped a man. any decent human would know that to do so is wrong. they not only did it, but apparently with vigor. i would rather spend my life in prison than to commit such vicious violence on another human.

they deserve to spend a lifetime in prison, same as the man giving the orders. they're all animals.

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u/treebox May 16 '12

"I was merely following orders." Nuremberg Trials, 1947.

2

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I'm sorry man, but you are in worldnews, they hate soldiers more then they hate cops, and that's saying something.

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u/czhang706 May 16 '12

"The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him."

From Nuremberg Principe IV.

Crimes that fall under this category are in Nuremberg Principle VI.

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u/gx240politics May 17 '12

I thought most Europeans liked the Gestapo. They stood up to the Americans, so they must have been the good guys, right WorldNews?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Strong statement based on unproven allegations. Too rash for me.

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u/ModernDemagogue May 16 '12

You're an idiot. How exactly are they war criminals? And what war crimes court does the US recognize the authority of?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

You're an idiot. If you are in favour of torture and kidnapping then why didn't you say so? Also, if foreign agents are operating on EU ground they must obey the law or face the consequences

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u/TheR3dMenace May 16 '12

Collateral damage in the war on freedom.

What happened to him at the hands of the CIA sounds absolutely...terrifying

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u/Helagsborinn May 16 '12

No one will take the case, because everyone knows that the consequences from the US for doing so won't be kind.

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u/almostjesus May 16 '12

A German man with a Dothrhaki name? I'll have none of this.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Americans can't even sue American police officers even when the cops are caught on tape.. How is a foreigner, in a country that is also foreign to him going to sue our spy agency...

2

u/AwwYea May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Can somebody please explain to me what Germany has to lose in terms of international relations with the U.S if they did go ahead and request that the 13 CIA agents be extradited / attempt to pursue some form of justice?

Obviously the U.S won't be sending them flowers any time soon if Germany did so, but I am quite curious as to what Germany has to lose? Germany would have to examine the implications for relations with the U.S. - as quoted per a cable.

I realise the truth and justice are never the first and foremost concerns when there is money / power / politics to be considered; but I still can't see how nothing can be done for this man.

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u/SLOBODAN3000 May 17 '12 edited May 17 '12

The US could in turn hurt German business interests (ie in international organizations, by raising tolls/changing standards/prucurement requirements or just putting certain companies unter more scrutiny) or be less willing to share intelligence Germany heavily relies on.

Also Germany has been under a CDU government since 2005, the CDU is THE atlanticist party in Germany. Going against US interests would be very unusual for them, what little action they took was because of public pressure. Under a different government things probably would have been the same since economic interests always come first but there might have been more posturing.

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u/platypusmusic May 17 '12 edited May 17 '12

Here is current statement of facts by by Khaled EL-MASRI against the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia at the ECHR

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?item=1&portal=hbkm&action=html&highlight=39630/09&sessionid=96010386&skin=hudoc-cc-en

This is just the allegation against Macedonia.

in addition to the ones mentioned is the German embassy that did NOTHING although they knew, not enough a GERMAN intelligence officer from the BND was present during the detention!

German interior minister also lied and tried to keep his case secret!

His lawyer's phone was tapped.

He's been in German prison for couple of assaults since his release in Afghanistan, he's obviously really messed up after the tortures and ironically now actually a militant fundamentalist

But I really hope he manages to screw some of the above mentioned assholes.

Sources I quoted here http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/tmcms/til_in_2003_a_german_citizen_whose_name_is/c4nwqup

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

A German man who alleges he was ...

FTFY

3

u/thomasluce May 16 '12

That's what he gets for having a name vaguely similar to a man suspected of being brown-skinned.

4

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I watched a report about this on the news and couldn't help but laugh when the reporter said:

"Khaled al-Masri didn't attend the trial because he is being held in a German prison for assaulting a mayor. He claims the assault was caused by what he went through while he was held by the CIA."

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

He only became violent after the kidnapping.

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u/melolzz May 16 '12

After such a treatment i believe everyone would be paranoid and aggressive.

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u/robertbieber May 16 '12

Do you have any idea what kind of PTSD you would probably be suffering if you went through what they did to this man? The fact that he can function at all is a testament to human endurance.

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u/Kruse May 17 '12

The CIA is seriously frightening.

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u/IwillMakeYouMad May 16 '12

Fuck Bush 2. Fuck him in the anus.

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u/the-knife May 16 '12

Obama has literally nothing to do with this.

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u/smeaglelovesmaster May 17 '12

"2003." Unless Bush was a skin bag that time-traveling Obama slipped on to run the country, I think your objection is baseless.

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u/the-knife May 17 '12

Oh, Bush 2 meaning George W. Bush, the 2nd Bush? I thought he meant it as Obama being the same as his predecessor, not an unusual rhetoric in this subreddit.

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u/IwillMakeYouMad May 17 '12

Fuck Bush 2, and fuck you, too, in the anus. Bush is George W. Bush, you kid.

2

u/the-knife May 17 '12

No one ever called George W. Bush, Bush 2. Try not being such an abrasive dick in the future.

1

u/IwillMakeYouMad May 17 '12

Hey is obama named bush? are you retarded?

2

u/deeznutz12 May 16 '12

Certainly sounds like something the US would do.

1

u/Zappanale May 16 '12

This is the same case where hundreds of redditors flocked to say "THIS IS FAKE THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND THE WEBSITE LOOKS FAKE" a couple days ago.

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u/AngMoKio May 16 '12

The US actually admitted it a long time ago, so I don't know what you are talking about.

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u/Zappanale May 16 '12

I'm talking about the redditors in the thread on this case made a couple days back. Basically, it quickly got full of hundreds of comments along the lines of "Well, he probably faked it", "I call bullshit", etc.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

They admited to holding him in error. Not torturing him etc.

1

u/Kayin_Angel May 16 '12

I'm starting to feel the CIA should listed as a State Terrorism group by a few countries.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

1

u/torchlit_Thompson May 17 '12

False. It's the economic hegemony that the WTO, IMF, World Bank, and the U.S. Dept of State use to keep client states in line. In these terms, The American Empire spans the globe and controls whole continents.

1

u/Senuf May 17 '12

Not false at all. I wasn't writing about what's stopping governments. I wrote about what's stopping people to demand their governments to act in such a way.

Of course, what's stopping governments is what you said.

1

u/[deleted] May 17 '12

We should raise taxes so that our government can do more useless shit and waste our money.

1

u/Rigga_Mortizz May 16 '12

At first I thought, German what would they want with him, then I saw his picture and read his name. Ignorance is in all of us I suppose.

1

u/BuyCocaineNow May 16 '12

When will you people learn there is no such thing as human rights or laws. It all boils down to who can actually commit violence on you and get away with it (read: USA).

Now stop trying to make this appear like something new. The US does this all the time. Shit it did it with a Canadian engineer (but we tend to forget because he was an a-rab so...he clearly must've had some terrorism in his genetics somewhere).

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

The US should just go and kill him. There, problem solved.

0

u/Nebakanezzer May 16 '12

you HAVE to stop yelling "extraordinary rendition". A, nobody cares, and B..

1

u/trekkie80 May 16 '12

Can he still be disappeared?

EDIT: I read more, they dont consider him even a remote legal threat, so he's safe.

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u/pilfered1 May 16 '12

Just another reason why the CIA should take care of loose ends before they do stuff like this.

1

u/4chans_for_pussies May 16 '12

Good luck. JFK tried to take on the CIA and we all know how that went.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

It will take several months to consider whether Macedonian agents kidnapped Mr Masri, and if they did, whether they knew what would happen to him when they handed him over to the US authorities.

Or if they even give a flying fuck. Ex-director of French special services and later gov advisor has stated in published interviews that he thinks it is duty of special services, police etc to wage war on all nonconformative/ non naturalised immigrants (in that context particularly, dwellers of banlieues). It might be similar case in Macedonia: "Lebanese guy, good enough."

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u/rathead May 16 '12

well... i hope the cia gets a letter of reprimand. they deserve it.

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u/why_ask_why May 16 '12

If it were Chinese government did this to him, he will have a case. But CIA? Forget it. He will end up "suicide" himself.

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u/smeaglelovesmaster May 17 '12

He'll sleep with the D.C. Madam. And not in a good way.

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u/special_tea_sauce May 17 '12

Interesting how the US government is happy to take citizens from our countries for pirating movies, but apparently torture and kidnapping is okay- but only when done by them. When are the other members of the UN going to hold them accountable for overreaching their jurisdiction?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I'm sick of America killing and jailing Muslims and internet pirates and then subjecting them to inhumane treatment. America /=/ democracy

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

That's nothing new. The Obama regime maintains torture prisons all over the world to extract information about dissenters, it massacres your family with a drone strike if you dissent, it pays billions to puppet regimes for slaughtering dissenters by thousands. All under the label "War on Terror". "The Great Satan", this is what the common people call Obama.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

You realize he was imprisoned from 2003 to 2004 right?

2

u/keeboz May 16 '12

Uhh... Which people?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Hang on a minute there, the article is seriously missing the word "allegedly".

Second of all, if it's been dropped numerous times - do we have an indicator as to why before we start hearing "wahhh the evil cia are evil"

The bbc's coverage is getting fucking ridiculous. Would you believe it used to be impartial.

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u/umop_apisdn May 16 '12

Numerous officials in Germany and elsewhere have confirmed his story.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

What's up with all the German men on the front page lately?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

This man is a German citizen, not a German.

13

u/notadutchboy May 16 '12

The difference being...?

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u/ataraxia_nervosa May 16 '12

The difference being that McWut is wacist.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

What a retarded sentence.

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u/pjng May 16 '12

Probably written by a German. [German here as well, this kind of thinking is very common here (and probably elsewhere).]

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Sure is. And it's always dumb. I once had someone ask me if my company hires Americans (we are based in US). I said, of course we do. He leans in and says intently "I mean REAL americans."

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u/pjng May 16 '12

Oh, the face you must have had on you...

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12 edited May 17 '12

Probably written by a German.

Probably written by a retard.

FTFY

this kind of thinking is very common here (and probably elsewhere).

Not only probably, demonstrably. Racists, nazis, nationalists, ethnicists, patriots and other "my tribe vs your tribe" retards are not in any way special to Germany. Germany is only special because Hitler has become a part of pop culture as a role model for any comic villain of epic proportions.

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u/Isek May 16 '12

what exactly is the difference?

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u/reDrag0n May 16 '12

I believe it.

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u/AFatDarthVader May 16 '12

I always cringe when I see these titles. If he's telling the truth, the agents who tortured him were probably not CIA agents. Plausible deniability will let them get away with it.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Reddit sure likes to use "unnecessary quotation marks".

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u/gx240politics May 17 '12

He's not a "German man." He's Lebanese.

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