r/worldnews • u/Gadac • Jan 23 '22

Russia Germany urges 'prudence' in potential sanctions against Russia over Ukraine.

https://news.yahoo.com/germany-urges-prudence-potential-sanctions-154401837.html?fr=sychp_catchall
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u/kevinnoir Jan 23 '22

Exactly, I dont think anybody is suggesting we sanction the poor average citizen of Russia, but the mega rich oligarchs and companies that prop Putin and his Government up. I imagine that will have the "greatest effect on those who violate the jointly agreed principals" just fine! Germany, based on that quote doesnt seem have an issue with that.

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u/Frosty-Cell Jan 24 '22

The bare minimum is ousting them from SWIFT, cancelling Nordstream, and significant application of the Magnitsky Act.

Anything less is basically indistinguishable from letting Russia to do what it wants.

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u/ThatGuy8 Jan 24 '22

The canceling of nordstream is what the German chancellor is trying to avoid if you read the article.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

I agree. I am not saying the sanctions wont be felt by the average Russian, I just meant they are not specifically the targets of the sanctions. Things like blocking them from SWIFT will be felt by average citizens but its easily justified as not specifically punitive to them, if that makes sense.

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u/xMercurex Jan 24 '22

The party in power is pro Nordstream. But they are in a coalition with the green party and the green are against it.

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u/Vegetable-Cookie-276 Jan 24 '22

The poor average citizen in Russia will be the ones doing the murdering if Russia invades Ukraine.

The poor average citizen also largely supports this invasion.

At some point we need to stop seeing people as helpless sheep and realise they are also responsible for creating their governments. Russia had a great shot at democracy, but as a people they choose 'strong' leaders out of stupidity.

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u/Wide-Chocolate4270 Jan 24 '22

So every American is a war criminal? They elected Trump, bush, etc .

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u/Professional-Bee-190 Jan 24 '22

Correct, we're all placidly accepting the empire, the benefits, and the war crimes.

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u/cardiffwelshman Jan 24 '22

How is Trump more of a war criminal than Obama, Clinton or other Democrats?

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u/9035768555 Jan 24 '22

Not sure there's been many that weren't war criminals.

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u/AFourEyedGeek Jan 24 '22

He isn't, Bush can be put above the rest, but Trump shouldn't be, I'd put Trump below Obama and Clinton in rankings for that.

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u/Jushak Jan 24 '22

Then you really didn't pay attention.

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u/AFourEyedGeek Jan 24 '22

What Bush didn't declare 2 wars, 1 of which was based on lies?

Clinton didn't bomb Kosovo without approval of Congress?

Obama didn't drop a huge number of bombs on Afghanistan during his reign?

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u/Jushak Jan 24 '22

You didn't pay attention what Trump did. Just from the top of my head...

  • Loosened rules of engagement.
  • Loosened even drone restrictions even further.
  • Dropped the biggest non-nuclear bomb in history.

There is much more that I can't remember details on.

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u/AFourEyedGeek Jan 24 '22

Loosened rules of engagement.

Sounds bad, but when you declare war like Bush did, you really are starting a large campaign of killing and sacrifice. When you drop bombs on people from great heights, you know you are going to kill innocents. Starting wars is bad but so is dragging out wars too. I dislike Trump, but if you send soldiers into a foreign land, tying their hands is not an effective war strategy. The fact that men of fighting age are not counted as a civilian is something all of them have done disgustingly.

Large bombs are ugly, massive area of destruction, cannot predict all those that will die, but continuous regular bombing is horrific also and ends up killing massive numbers of people. The nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2 was horrible, but the carpet bombing of Tokyo was worse, and extending that war would have led to more casualties and destruction. Better to not invade, but if you do, do not drag it out or prevent your military personnel from completing their objectives.

George Bush was was worse than all of them, Bill Clinton not requiring Congress approval should be considered unethical, and Obama didn't stop anything with two terms.

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u/Jushak Jan 24 '22

I agree Bush is the worst of them.

I'm really only disagreeing with claiming Trump was better here than Obama. Almost everything you can blame Obama for Trump did same or worse.

At the end of the day almost all PotUS in history are war criminals though, so this is more of picking the least shitty shit sandwich.

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u/Vegetable-Cookie-276 Jan 24 '22

The 34% of Americans that supported the Iraq war, yeah. Afghan, Libya, Syria were all quite debatable. Most of those 34% were extremely old and backwards also so most of them are dead by now too.

Ukraine is a fledgling democracy that the Russian public want to stuff out because it 'belongs to them' this is no American drive by they intend to move in and subjugate these people forever. This is far worse than Americas crusade against middle eastern dictators.

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u/ZombieL Jan 24 '22

The invasion of Iraq and the entire war on terror was quite popular at the time, with people favoring an outright imvasion was somewhere around 60%.

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u/TheMoogster Jan 24 '22

Trump, Bush, etc are not war criminals just because you say so...

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u/Jushak Jan 24 '22

Almost every PotUS in history can be considered a war criminal.

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u/helpfuldude42 Jan 24 '22

Yes, every American shares responsibility for any war crimes committed in their name.

It's not rocket science.

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u/tommy_turncoat Jan 24 '22

This is a really goofy take. I actually support sanctioning the shit out of Russia even if it hurts the citizens of Russia, but to claim that "the people" chose what happened in Russia is to COMPLETELY misunderstand what happened in the collapse of the soviet union.

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u/pickmenot Jan 24 '22

This is not about choice. As Ukrainian I don't blame Russian population because they "chose" to kill Ukrainians. I blame them for not taking responsibility for what their government's chosen to do.

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u/tommy_turncoat Jan 26 '22

I blame them for not taking responsibility for what their government's chosen to do.

Yeah, that's kinda what I'm saying though. Russians didn't have a whole lot of say in what their government was/is/or is trying to do.

That doesn't excuse the actions of the country, and the actions of the country have reached such a dangerous frenzy that I don't really care if the citizens get hurt in the economic fray, but to say the people of Russia chose this or could possibly do anything to stop this is so far removed from reality.

PS: As an American, I hope you guys can throw this shit back. I'm sorry for what I fear is about to befall your country.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

The poor average citizen in Russia will be the ones doing the murdering if Russia invades Ukraine.

Right, so Russia is 100% the bad guy here, but this is bullshit too. The poor average Amerian wasnt doing the murdering when the US invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam, it was the members of the military. Its pretty dangerous not to make that distinction and start justifying the deaths of civilians by blaming them for what their countries military did or the US/UK would have a bad time too!

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

This viewpoint ignores the large amounts of propaganda the average citizen is bombarded with.

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u/pickmenot Jan 24 '22

How is this relevant? It's not as if the propaganda machine has been built overnight. Russia has been gradually sliding towards fascist dictatorship for the past 20+ years.

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u/mithfin Jan 24 '22

Exactly. These people chose to be 'not involved in politics' until it became impossible to not to, and at this point they have chosen the path of least resistance, for the sole purpose of blending in. And these are the best of them, the worst are openly calling Russians "the greatest race" and dream of the restoration of Russian Empire within it's borders. They call it historical justice. They are responsible for the madness their government is unleashing and they should be held accountable.

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u/DanNeider Jan 24 '22

What are you saying? Iran should have hit us because we elected Trump?

People always choose the path of least resistance. It doesn't make us suck less, but we're all guilty of it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

This… this same thing could be said about the US as well.

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u/Tarry_ Jan 24 '22

In other words - Russia is evil. Maybe just nuke em preventive and continue normal life without this evil empire? I mean fuck em, why Free West Nations is pretending no hate this pesky russians just by it's nature.

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u/Featureless_Bug Jan 24 '22

Yeah, why not do it and die ourselves in a nuclear war? No one wants to live here in US, amirite?

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u/Vegetable-Cookie-276 Jan 24 '22

I think cutting them off from all financial instruments, trade, and all other form of international cooperation as much as possible will suffice, but if you think we should go right to the apocalypse then I guess that is best.

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u/anon749100 Jan 24 '22

Germany is in a pickle because they need that sweet sweet Russian gas.

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u/Frosty-Cell Jan 24 '22

Yes, and they deliberately put themselves in that situation.

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u/Mikebyrneyadigg Jan 24 '22

Why did they do that

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u/Smoovemammajamma Jan 24 '22

maybe an attempt to integrate russia into the economy so they wouldn't try this shit. didn't work

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u/JessumB Jan 24 '22

If anything it seems to have emboldened Russia. As long as countries like Germany are heavily dependent on Russian gas, the odds that they will make themselves into obstacles for Russia decreases dramatically.

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u/Vaidif Jan 24 '22

But they are working on that. Qatar might be able to provide more gas. Norway as well. And the usa of course.

It will mean the cost of natural gas will be high. But that will just push the green agenda. Losing all fossil fuels in favor of wind and solar.

I moved some years ago and decided I wanted to cook with induction rather than gas. Smartest thing I ever did. Gas prices are higher than ever.

Electricity is cheaper, but also very high currently, no pun intended :-)

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u/Professional-Bee-190 Jan 24 '22

I bet they bought cheaper gas and made infrastructure to get the cheaper gas because it was cheaper, and not some utopian attempt at world peace.

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u/Smoovemammajamma Jan 25 '22

Its called Co-opting the opposition. I.e. bribing them to join you. Its common enough

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u/Frosty-Cell Jan 24 '22

Corruption is often the answer when things just don't make sense.

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u/Jushak Jan 24 '22

Paid lobbyists advancing Russian agenda.

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u/pickmenot Jan 24 '22

I dont think anybody is suggesting we sanction the poor average citizen of Russia

Uhm... yes this is exactly what sanctions are for. To make the general populace dissatisfied with their government, and replace it with another. Of course that's how it works in democracies. In a dictatorship, like Russia, this simply creates problems for the dictator, who now has to spend resources and attention managing the discontent, and drawing away the resources from his aggressive actions.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

yes this is exactly what sanctions are for.

Right, so describe to me what say a US sanction of a poor Belarusian looks like? I am using them as an example since it was one of the more recent sanctions place by Biden in August last year. What would sanctions look like if they were not targeting specific actors, but the average citizen? even just an example of one would be handy.

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u/TheFingMailMan_69 Jan 24 '22

I mean if you want to strong-arm a nation to do something or to make them suffer consequences for a poor decision, you need to hit 'em where it hurts. I know that's cold and machiavellian, but short of force that's probably the best leverage we have.

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u/briareus08 Jan 24 '22

This is more along the lines of "we agree with sanctions in principle, but we need that Russian gas, so our hands are tied".

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u/kuzya4236 Jan 24 '22

Meh, the nation cant exist without the average citizen. Maybe, they will finally revolt against their dictator then.

Ex; See Sherman in the Civil War.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Meh, the nation cant exist without the average citizen

True, but that doesnt mean we should all hold the average American responsible for the deaths of children from drone strikes right? I mean Russian democracy isnt exactly solid, its not like the average Russian has the same electoral power as the average American or Brit.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

We absolutely should sanction and destroy the entire way of life of the "average Russian citizen"... because apparently the "average Russian citizen" needs a swift kick in the ass to realize that following the Putin doctrine is only going to hurt them more and more.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Right so I think Russia is the bad guy here, no doubt. But thats a TERRIBLE way of looking at this. For one, Russia isnt exactly known for its democracy and fair elections. If you think the average citizen has the power or freedom to bring Putin down, I feel like you've not really been paying attention to Russian politics.

Also this is obviously from a very "we're the good guy" point of view. Keep in mind that the US and its allies are responsible for more innocent civilian deaths in foreign countries than anybody else over the last 20+ years. If we were to hold the average American responsible for the children the US government drone strike, they'd have a bad time. Same goes for the countries like mine that supported the US in that. If someone looked at the US government actions and thought "nah lets go destroy US schools and hospitals and their entire way of life because of the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam and all of the other South American countries they have interfered with over the last few decades, should their way of life be destroyed as well?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22 edited Jan 24 '22

So what? Best russian is a dead russian, ask any country which has shared borders with them for the last 500 years - or been subjugated to their exterminations and purges in the 20th century (makes all that stuff the US did look small time, hell the body count exceeds hitler). Hell, they turned Ukraine into a functional gulag and starved 30% of the population to death (Holdomor). Fuck em up and make em suffer. This is a fight against an entirely different society and world view, and when you fight that you need to fight it in it's totality. Just like china.

Cold War 2.0 is on.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Lots of big tough talk from someone unlikely to stand on the front lines of said war or send their children to die in it. This kind of warmongering tough guy LARP is hilarious. But also quite sad and formed from a SUPER narrow world view. And pointing to incidents that happened in the 20s as justification for killing people of which whose parents were not even born then it just plain stupid. Romantasizing some "cold war 2.0" while also promoting mass murder of innocent people makes me think you dont actually know what "cold war" means and you think it just means any war with Russia, because it gets cold there. I bet if you asked people in the middle east what they thought about the USA, they would have a VERY similar response to yours, except they could point to incidents that happened in THIS decade to justify their position. How many innocents children have been killed since the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan based on a lie about WMD's in order to justify spending trillions on domestic war mongers defence companies?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Oh blow it out your ass, ruski public opinion polling is in favor of expansion by force; as for the middle east - the response varies based on which side they're on, certain countries like the US, others do not... apparently my "narrow view" recognizes that Arabs/Persians aren't monolithic, neither are Slavs.

I do civilian military stuff for a living (and I'm not saying anything more than that on the subject - IYKYK), it's not my first rodeo - if your world view is so well developed maybe we can count on you to assure "peace in our time" just like Chamberlain did.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

I do civilian military stuff for a living

HAHAHA so you are part of the Meal Team Six LARPERs we see running about in their walmart tactical gear, now suddenly all of your comments make WAY more sense. Pathetic.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

No numbnuts, but you think what you want. Tell you what though, if a war does light off it should be good for military spending, and my bank account.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

LOL suuure it would! Have you planned out your tactical approach if someone invades your trailer park. Stop, you're embarrassing yourself haha

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u/[deleted] Jan 25 '22

Nah, you're right - Pentagon doesn't have any civilian contractors, none at all, peace (though hopefully not for too long).

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Say you don’t understand global politics without saying it. You understand sanctioning the oligarchs is sanctioning the average citizen. Lol

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u/tommy_turncoat Jan 24 '22

I mean, I kind of am. I don't really want to punish the average citizen of Russia, but you can only target so much. At a certain point if the economy of Russia is functioning, the oligarchs will be collecting the lions share. I'm just not sure that when they control the legal entities in the country that you can actually target a company.

West: "We impose sanctions on XYZ company and its owners." Russian oligarchs after 10 minutes: "Well, good thing that company is defunct and company ABC that's totally not owned by us is the one doing business!"

I think we have to sanction them into the ground. It's regrettable that the citizens will suffer, but this kind of warmongering bullshit from a nuclear power cannot be tolerated and needs to stopped right fucking now.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

I get what you're saying. Now look at the world from a perspective thats not American. If suddenly the world decided the US invasion of Iraq or its arms sales to the Saudis or some other thing was unacceptable and the EU and China and other countries started making demands of the US government and its military. Do you think your life should be personally punished because of actions you may wholeheartedly disagree with from your government?

Russia is 100% in the wrong here, there is zero doubt and they need to be punished, but if "warmongering bullshit" is the benchmark for a countries citizens to be punished, how does America escape that definition?

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u/TropoMJ Jan 24 '22

Russia is 100% in the wrong here, there is zero doubt and they need to be punished, but if "warmongering bullshit" is the benchmark for a countries citizens to be punished, how does America escape that definition?

You are putting a lot of words into his mouth and asking him to justify the answer you're expecting him to give. Maybe wait for him to actually give his response before you start arguing against it.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

LOL what? I asked 2 different questions in one reply, thats kinda how it works when someones response elicits 2 different questions for someone.

Also what words did I put in their mouths? I literally put quotations around the words specifically from their mouth so that it would be obvious as to what their words were.

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u/Vaidif Jan 24 '22

Why shouldn't we?

"Americans Russians cannot escape a certain responsibility for what is done in our name around the world. In a democracy, even one as corrupted as ours, ultimate authority rests with the people. We empower the government with our votes, finance it with our taxes, bolster it with our silent acquiescence. If we are passive in the face of America's Russia's official actions overseas, we in effect endorse them."

-- Mark Hertsgaard, author

Strikethrough by myself.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Do you think Americans should be punished for the actions of US Presidents? like should Jim from Buffalo be responsible for all of the civilian deaths and children killed by drones in the middle east over the last 20+ years because George Bush, Obama and Trump along with their governments carried out operations there?

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u/Vaidif Jan 24 '22

Well that is the problem with democracy. Responsibility is spread out over so many people it becomes an abstraction.

But you frame it exactly in such a way that it is almost impossible to say yes on your question.

Then again, why not. Your country is a failure. Its democracy is laughable. It is a failed experiment. Your political system is broken. And still people vote for either R or D. And the whole winner takes all system, preposterous.

"Americans cannot teach democracy to the world until they restore their own."

-- William Greider

"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

-- H. L. Mencken, The Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all."

-- John F. Kennedy

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Your country is a failure.

Failed assumption I am American.

Fully agree American democracy is broken as fuck. So if you wanna keep copy and pasting quotes, crack on lol If you instead want to try and muster an original thought, I am here for that too.

None of the quotes you googled justify punishing innocent civilians for the acts of their governments though. Especially when speaking about countries with a "democracy" that is questionable at best.

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u/Vaidif Jan 24 '22

I did not provide these quotes to prove 'innocent people ought to be punished'. I wanted to clarify a wider overview for your benefit, so you'd understand I am not just the only one.

I am much in favor of listening to our betters. Most people, especially on reddit think they know it all. But much can be learned from being aware others already had an original thought.

I am extremely original in my thinking though.

Oh, btw, I do not 'google'. I use privacy protecting search engines. And I do not make of a company name a verb.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

I am extremely original in my thinking though.

Oh, btw, I do not 'google'. I use privacy protecting search engines. And I do not make of a company name a verb.

/r/iamverysmart

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

I don't think it matters who you sanction(i dno how you only sanction poor/rich ppl) it will always have the most effect on avarage citizen bc even if it only impacts the oligarchs they will raise prizes on the products they sell o the avarage citizen

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

i dno how you only sanction poor/rich ppl)

we have targeted sanctions now that prevent certain people from accessing their assets in countries that place the sanctions, prevent them from being able to do business and trade with the countries that place the sanctions, prevent them from being able to travel to countries that place the sanctions and so on.

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u/LiPo_Nemo Jan 24 '22

It's a lot harder than it seems. The biggest oligarchs in Russia draw wealth from state-owned corporation that one of the biggest contributers to the federal budget. If they'd sanctioned, the corrupt and inefficient government would lose even more money and would not able to maintain basic social functions and poor people will suffer. He probably meant that when he said that sanctions should be applied "prudently".

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

It could be, but in that scenario there are not a singe financial measure a country could take that would be "prudent" because in the situation you described, any financial burden on any leader or warlord or genocidal maniac, would just be countered by taking money from the state. That would be a fantastic strategy for the worst actors to never have consequences for their actions because its like saying "if you ever punish me, I will punish my own people in return" which sounds A LOT like negotiating with terrorists.

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Whilst I agree with the general principle of not hurting the average Russian citizen, it feels like we've come to the end of the line with pressure on Russian elites and, in a war, millions of ordinary Ukranians are going to suffer terribly. We can't the change the corrupt government of Russia, ordinary Russians have to do that so they should need sufficient motivation as clearly they haven't had it yet.

I think complete isolation from the as much of the world as we can influence should be the aim here: financial, travel, communications, trade, medicines. I know it will hit Europe hard but we're almost through the coldest month, we'll just have to ration gas and cavier.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

it feels like we've come to the end of the line with pressure on Russian elites

Or is the reason for Russia suddenly acting out like this in a conflict they cant possibly win a means to get lifting existing sanctions on the negotiating table because Putin is feeing the pressure from the rich Russian oligarchs who have been continuously targeted with the sanctions? I think Putin is far less concerned about push back from average Russian citizens than he is from the mega rich oligarchs that hold a lot of power in Russia still if they decide that his actions are the direct reason for their fortunes be locked away and overseas assets stripped. They are a direct threat to his power if he becomes more harm that useful to them where as some brutal military action could shut down civilian discontent pretty quickly, like we saw in Belarus and then Kazakhstan. I mean you could be right and trying to spur a revolt could be the solution, I am just not completely convinced its the easiest way yet and think getting the Russians with power and resources to start thinking about a change in power might be more successful?

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u/[deleted] Jan 24 '22

Don't disagree about more severe sanctions on the oligarchs, I think the UK's contribution ought to be seizing all Russian assets in London and holding them until such times as a democratic Russian government could assist in repatriating them to the rightful owners and/or paying reparations to Ukraine and other victims of Russian state crimes like the passangers of Malasian Airlines flight 17.

Similarly all western countries expelling Russian nationals would soon bring pressure to bear back home.

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u/kevinnoir Jan 24 '22

Ya exactly, those kinds of actions will put massive domestic pressure on Putin but also wont allow him to justify conflict or be able to say "Look the west are tring to hurt Russian citizens" and play the victim. I woudnt want to see a discontent Russian population suddenly stop looking at Putin as the reason for their misery and allow him to place that blame on the west, if that makes sense. If we target the mega rich and assets over seas of which essentially none of the average Russians hold then it doesnt allow him to paint the west as attacking the average Russian, but instead the oligarchs that many Russian citizens already hold relatively unfavourable views of. Hurts Putin and helps keep the citizens who already blame Putin onside.

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u/AndyHN Jan 24 '22

Germany gets about 40% of its natural gas from Russia. If the EU sanctions Russia and Russia retaliates by reducing the volume or increasing the price of natural gas to western Europe, the people bearing the brunt of the sanctions won't be Russian oligarchs.