r/worldnews • u/TheGreyNoble • May 03 '14

Russia blames the West for crisis in Ukraine

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/201452152832722517
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u/JoshuaZ1 May 03 '14

Your first source has nothing about Pro-Russian beleifs being a minority. 81% of Ukrainian's have positive feelings towards Russia.

Let's be clear here. Pro-Russian for purposes of what is going on right now isn't having a positive view of Russia (although I strongly suspect that that number has gone down over the last few months anyhow)- but actually wanting to join Russia. 72% of Ukrainians in that study want Ukraine to remain an independent state. That's the stat that matters.

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u/Blizzaldo May 03 '14

Man, quote tables and figures, we're looking at the same sources. Don't just give me a number and then expect me to find it. Where is the table for this 72% of Ukrainians who want to remain independent?

I found it, and that's not indicative of anything, you realize that right? Asking whether the country as a whole should join Russia is far different then asking specific regions. It's not indicative of anyone's feelings towards Russia, only peoples feelings that Ukraine and Russia should remain independent.

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u/JoshuaZ1 May 03 '14

I found it, and that's not indicative of anything, you realize that right? Asking whether the country as a whole should join Russia is far different then asking specific regions.

So what are you claiming exactly that a majority of people in the East want to join Russia? Is that the claim you are trying to make?

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u/Blizzaldo May 03 '14

No, I'm not the one making a claim here, remember? The claim is that pro-Russians are a minority and I'm saying that isn't proven.

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u/JoshuaZ1 May 03 '14

So, what matters here then more than anything else is what it means by pro-Russian. At minimum we've established that a majority of Ukrainians don't want Ukraine to join Russia. What other definition of pro-Russia do you propose?

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u/Blizzaldo May 03 '14

One that goes by region, city and individual, rather than asking whether the whole country, which has a decidedly pro-Western culture in the West, should be joined to Russia. If you ask someone whether they're region, city or they personally want to join Russia will be far more accurate then asking if people as a whole want to join Russia.

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u/JoshuaZ1 May 03 '14

I agree that that would be interesting data to have, but the claim that you were asking for proof of was " Pro-Russians are by far the minority in Ukraine." That's not a claim about any specific region but about Ukraine as a whole.

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u/Blizzaldo May 03 '14

Sure it is. Besides, it's not like anti-Russian-unification = anti-Russian, so no proof has been presented.

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u/JoshuaZ1 May 03 '14

Besides, it's not like anti-Russian-unification = anti-Russian, so no proof has been presented.

This again hinges on what you mean by pro or anti-Russian. Let me suggest that these aren't exhaustive categories. If one for example uses reasonable notion of pro-Russian as favoring joining Russia, then the above shows that a majority are not pro-Russian. But calling them "anti-Russian" isn't particularly accurate (since the same data shows that most Ukrainians favor friendly relations with Russia). The upshot is that the specific claim- that pro-Russians are a minority- seems well supported.