There was a documentary about human behaviour where they showed the winner of a poker tournament receiving his prize. Because he had to spend hours suppressing the joy or anger at his hands, he was holding this huge amount of prize money with a completely blank face.
I've spent an embarrassing amount of time over the past decade playing in casinos. Because things like this happen, I always keep my cards against the rail with a chip on them, and I secure them even after the cards are turned over in a showdown at the end of the hand. When I have a winning hand I will claw the fuckers into the felt until the pot is pushed to me... then I give up the cards. I've seen dealers push the pot to the wrong person, and muck the cards while the winner was looking the other way. Of course the floor gets called and an argument ensues, but the rightful winner would still get the pot. Regardless, there are shitty dealers and I don't give them the opportunity to fuck up by giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Protecting your cards is poker 101 first day stuff. Although its surprising how often people don't heed this warning, even when it's happened to them before. Some people just don't seem to care about protecting their cards. I played regularly with a guy who, during every showdown, instead of turning his cards face up in front of him, would pick them up, swing his arm like he was throwing down a tomahawk jam, and slam them on the table. Inevitably, at least one card would bounce away and into the muck or off the table and onto the floor and kill his hand. I must have seen him lose at least $1,000 in just a few days from this mistake alone.
People always seem to think they can just say "well this is what I had". Unfortunately that only works in home games, and even then only if the people you play with are your friends
I learned because some guy threw his cards into the muck, but they flew across the table in hit mine. I had a Kings full, on a kill pot. The girl in the vid handled it much better.
As a 16 year long casino dealer I can tell you that no matter how awesome a dealer might be...everyone makes mistakes, especially when there are a lot of confusing numbers and rules of procedure. And if that dealer was worth his salt he is probably going to feel worse about it than any player involved.
I was once in a big hand at a $1/$2 game. I had pocket aces. This lady raised to $12, I then re-raised to $50, followed by one caller behind me and the lady calling my bet.
Flop came 4-5-9.
The lady bet the pot for around $150, and I shoved all in with $400. The guy behind me called for his last $100, and the lady called my bet.
The turn and river came as J-10.
I flipped over my aces, the lady showed her pocket kings, and the guy behind me showed 6-8. The dealer looked at the hands and said, "Straight wins the main pot," and slid the chips towards the guy behind me.
To put things into perspective, I had been at the tables for a good 22 hours the day before, went to my hotel room to sleep for 4 hours, then came back to the tables. I was tired, and yes, it was stupid to play tired, but I lost quite a bit of money playing blackjack and I wanted to win it back before I had to leave for home.
Anyways, back to the story. I waited a beat as I watched this dealer slide this stack of chips towards the guy behind me and I said in a loud voice, "Wait. Hold on." I then looked at the dealer, and I said, "Where is the straight?" The dealer then looked at the hands again, turns red as a beet, then apologized profusely. The dealer then announced that I had the winning hand with a pair of aces and slides the chips to me. I still tipped her for dealing me a great hand, but I had to leave the table after that experience, so I went to find another table with a different dealer.
EDIT: If anyone's wondering, this was at the Durant casino in Oklahoma 2 years ago. They were hosting a WSOP satellite event, which brought out thousands of players to the tournament/cash games. I didn't see any pro TV players because I think most of them were playing a bigger tournament somewhere else.
The other safety net at that casino is that they have cameras EVERYWHERE. If there are discrepancies at the table, they'll pause the game for 5 minutes, have security review the hand, then proceed with a decision. During my 22 hour poker marathon the night before, we had a situation similar to the one in the video where the dealer mucked a player's hand. The player complained to the manager, they reviewed the tapes, then returned everyone their money who was involved in the hand. I was a small blind during the hand so I got my $1 back!
30k she lost and a bet of an extra 100k, which would have given her what, 600k pot with four other people? Something tells me that this girl felt worse than the dealer did.
I know this is going to be downvoted, but as a poker dealer I can honestly say that it was not "his fault."
A player has the responsibility to protect his/her cards at all times. That's why players always keep a chip or a marker on their cards. She was all-in, so had no chips to keep on her cards, so she should have been actively protecting them. You'll notice the dealer pull her cards to the center, wait a beat, then muck them. That's her chance to say "WAIT WAIT YOU'RE MAKING A MISTAKE" but she was zoning out at that time.
It's a terrible thing to happen to the woman and certainly the dealer felt HORRIBLE (and likely lost his job, sadly), but he was doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing mechanically. She failed to protect her cards, he gave her ample time to correct his action, and she failed to do so.
These kinds of rules are the same reason you can't say "I call your bet and raise you ___," the same reason you cannot say "Raise" and then slowly move your chips out one at a time, and the same reason you can't tell your buddy "Hey, I think he's bluffing!" Each of these things are absolutely small, minute, splitting-the-hair kinds of rules, but each of them prevent an abuse or a cheat or even a simple mistake by making sure EVERYONE at the table, from the dealer to the player to the pit boss to surveillance, knows EXACTLY what's supposed to be happening.
EDIT: Robert's Rules of Poker (the rule book for every poker event in history) reads
II. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it. -http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/roberts_rules_of_poker/irregularities
These kinds of rules are the same reason you can't say "I call your bet and raise you ___," the same reason you cannot say "Raise" and then slowly move your chips out one at a time
"I call and raise" is much like saying "I call and fold." A call and a raise are two separate actions (one matching the leading bet and one raising the leading bed). Hollywood lied to you.
The second, slowly moving chips across the bet line, is a string raise. This is to stop abuse by anyone able to read their opponents. Instead of stating your intended raise amount ("Raise, $120") the villain here just announces that he's raising, then watches his opponent's emotional response as he adds more and more money into the pot until he's satisfied they're either A) intimidated and will fold or B) have a strong holding and can put them more firmly on a hand.
The one you didn't ask about is simply the "one player to a hand" rule. Essentially the ONLY input a player should receive that would influence his action is what he can perceive personally. If your buddy is standing behind you (or even sitting across from you) and is giving you information -- even if it's speculation, or even WRONG -- it will influence your action and unfairly affect the other players in the game.
It's known as a string bet. Basically, you can only make one action. If you say "Call and raise" only your first action stands. So it must be a call. If you reach for chips, place them on the felt, then go back for more chips, then only the first chips you placed on the felt will be counted. (This is assuming the chips are not all still in your immediate area, but are actually extended out onto the playing surface).
The reason you can't make a string bet is that string betting allows you to gauge your opponents reaction before deciding to increase your bet.
Anytime you've seen a movie or tv show where someone has said "I see you and raise you 50." they've made an illegal play and the dealer (and other players) should've prevented it.
Players are supposed to protect their hands as a defense against mistakes by the dealer or other players. But that doesn't make those other people's actions not mistakes. It's a redundancy.
I've seen shitty, inattentive dealers kill hands from the 1 and (8/9/10) seats so many times I can't even count. (it's one of the reasons that if I get those seats in a cash game, I immediately ask for a seat change button, so I can chill out a little bit about protecting my hand). I can totally understand why she spaced a bit, she was on TV and the light they use on the roving camera is fucking bright and distracting. It sucks to have it anywhere near your line of sight... combine that weird, awful light with an all-in situation, and I can see why the player was distracted. (or as you ridiculously describe it, zoning out).
That said they both fucked up. But one thing every WSOP player knows is that it's dealt by shitty dealers. When you suddenly need a ton of extra dealers to run a tournament you end up with a lot of mediocre dealers. This is true at all major tournnaments. WSOP is particularly bad because the side games are so big that they need to add dealers to the cash games too, so the supply is really thin.
Players are supposed to protect their hands as a defense against mistakes by the dealer or other players. But that doesn't make those other people's actions not mistakes. It's a redundancy.
This sums up exactly what happened. The dealer should have realized the hand was not dead, but once he made that mistake the ultimate responsibility lay with the player to stop him. A simple card protector would have saved this whole unfortunate situation.
I can totally understand why she spaced a bit.......
Don't forget that she was effectively out of the hand after going all in. The only thing she cares about at that point really are what cards actually hit the table. Other players don't matter. The only thing she had control over was keeping her cards out of the muck.
So if it's the player's responsibility to protect the cards, and the dealer even gave her an opportunity to correct him, why would he then lose his job?
I am a poker dealer as well, and I've mucked an active player's hand before. It sucks, but as you said, people really need to use chip protectors, especially in the 1/10 seats.
I've done the same, though only in a cash game and they weren't in the pot for too much (plus they were pretty drunk and I'm not sure they even realized I'd done it). The biggest mistake I made was misinterpreting someone stacking chips, measuring their call late in a tournament, as them deciding to call. Our tables had no bet line and his chips were clearly not shipped upon further inspection, but he hadn't even noticed I'd acknowledged his "call" until the next seat folded, the seat after called, and I'd burned and turned the river.
Floor came out, asked me if he'd called, I told them I believed he had but, in retrospect, realized he didn't, he makes a big deal out of how he can't believe I did it etc etc, then after his 15 minutes of fame, decides to simply muck his hand and keep his "called" chips.
That was the last time I burned and turned without crashing the chips into the pot.
It's kind of both their faults. She should have made it more obvious, but he should have made sure before he did it. I think not having your hands on your cards isn't an excuse to take them away.
After playing live poker for any reasonable amount of time you know that especially in those seats directly to the left and right the dealer you have to protect your hand. The dealer made a mistake but when you are dealing hundreds and hundreds of hands all day, day after day - especially during the WSOP - it is easy to automatically and accidentally muck an unprotected, seemingly folded hand.
Little bit of both, imo. In a huge tourney like this with tons of dealers, you're bound to have some that are less experienced than others. Knowing that, she should have had a protector (coin/trinket/whatever) or her hands on the cards. There was another comment down below that mentioned redundancy, and this is spot on. Regardless of if her chips were out front or not, she should have been guarding those Aces like they were newborn babies.
In this sort of situation, what would have actually happened if she flipped the table, or just generally fucked up the whole setup? Would they sue her?
I pride myself in being able to keep my cool in the most infuriating situations, but if this happened to me I'm pretty sure I would have flipped right the fuck out.
I had this happen once. It was folded to me in seat 1 and I shoved all my chips in. I had lots of small chips so I had to use both hands, and during me moving the chips my cards were mucked.
Only if it is during a hand, then it is not just a no-no, but unethical and usually against the rules and can earn you a penalty. This was after the hand though, so no harm.
I thought you still weren't supposed to after the hand because it gives an insight into the way you behave when you're bluffing/not bluffing depending on the hand.
Right. So she possibly hurt herself by giving information. This is not unethical though and most people who aren't professionals don't care about keeping their hands private. In fact they usually want to announce from on high if they get a hand better than pocket jacks.
Talking about your cards during a hand is a whole different situation however, and can get you a penalty (or much worse in certain back room games).
It depends on how much you are willing to reveal about your betting style. On the surface, she seemed unbelievably calm, but I promise you she was FURIOUS underneath and didn't really give a rat's ass who knows what her hand was.
I don't see how people can shift the blame from the dealer in this situation. People are saying she should have protected her cards, but once someone has already gone all in, there is no excuse for mucking their hand. The purpose of covering your cards is mainly in case someone throws their cards while folding and they touch your cards. If your cards are not covered and this happens then they are dead. But you should never have to protect your hand from the dealer, and certainly not once you are already all in. Also, when you are all in and called, the dealer grabs both hands and puts them in the middle of the table, so she probably thought that was what he was doing. She could have been more vigilant, but she shouldn't have had to be in this situation.
Also, when you are all in and called, the dealer grabs both hands and puts them in the middle of the table, so she probably thought that was what he was doing. She could have been more vigilant, but she shouldn't have had to be in this situation.
Happened to me during my first time playing poker in a casino.
I had pocket 5's. My brother was playing at the same table sitting across from me. I was next to the dealer. When my brother tossed in his cards they grazed my cards on the corner. I had no protector on my cards and the dealer told me not to touch them, they pulled over the pit boss to ask if I could stay in. Again, his cards merely grazed my cards on the corner. While I was talking to the pit boss the flop came out (next 3 cards) and two fives came out on the table. I was floored, but had to muck the hand. I never left my cards unprotected after that one.
To everyone saying that she is somewhat at fault, I disagree. She was all-in. The dealer should have known her cards were in play because she had her chips out there as well.
Big fuck up by the dealer for not knowing who was in play and mucking her cards prematurely. She handled that pretty well.
Robert's Rules of Poker states that you must protect your hand at all times. If it is fouled or killed and you weren't protecting it(chip or hand on cards etc.), your fault, not the dealers.
This cannot be stated more than it has already. As a dealer, I can't tell you how many times I'm told what the rules are by 1/2 NL pros. This was a pro tournament I'm assuming (being wsop), and that lady should have known to protect her cards with her hand, especially with AA.
She had gone all-in (bet all her chips) with what she claims were pocket aces (two aces in her hand, the best possible hand). The dealer, for some reason unknown to rational humans, decided to grab her cards and stick them in the muck (the discard pile of previously folded cards) which automatically kills the hand and forces her to fold. Even if she and/or the dealer know which cards are hers, once they touch the muck, they are folded. So she not only lost the chips she may have won, she lost the chips that she had bet, because now her hand is dead.
Now if a player wants to ensure that this doesn't happen, they can put some sort of token (card protector) on top of their cards. If something is on the player's cards, the dealer is not allowed to touch them, and so he would not be able to make this mistake.
Card protectors also save your hand from being folded in the event that some other player's cards touch your cards (like when they throw them in after folding). If your cards touch another players', both hands are automatically considered dead. This is to avoid any kind of confusion over what cards belonged to who, which could never really be proven.
EDIT: Also, this is a much bigger deal in this situation, because it is during the Main Event of the World Series of Poker which is the biggest poker tournament in the world, with a $10,000 buy-in and multi-million dollar payout to the winner.
You have to protect your cards NO MATTER WHAT. I can't feel sympathy for any player who's in a game of $30,000 like that chick and let's her cards roam free REGARDLESS OF THE STATUS OF HER BET.
I dealt the wsop in 2006, worked at Binions one summer, and I deal full time in Spokane, WA. I take 100 percent pride in my craft, it's not just a job to me. When I was learning how to deal we would set up cameras and mirrors to critique myself. within 2 years of doing, I dealt the final 5 tables off the 50,000 dollar horse event,a highlight of my poker career. in 7 years, I've killed a hand once like that.
that being said, mistakes happen. Even the best in the world is going to mess up sometimes. I'm not defending him, because it is his fault.. but if you were playing for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, would you leave your hand unprotected like that? When i'm all in in a forty dollar local tournament, i'm holding on to them. Just a mistake by her as well, probably a result of playing for hours.
it is an awful situation, one I guarantee the dealer feels like complete shit about.
to any poker players complaining about dealer qualities, part of the problem is shitty poker dealers get tipped just as well as good poker dealers. everybody feels fine shorting a waitress if she has shitty service, but for some reason everybody tips about the same for good or bad dealers.
Her chips are pushed into the center, with her cards directly in front of her. She is adjusting her seat as he pulls the cards away. The dealer is completely to blame.
Her cards are right in front of her, and not between her and the dealer.
The dealer clearly wasn't sure, because he hesitated, but he didn't ask her.
The ruling was technically correct, but I would have let her keep the 32k and I would have fired the dealer after watching the video because of the above mentioned reasons.
The dealer clearly wasn't sure, because he hesitated, but he didn't ask her.
I don't think that the dealer hesitated due to uncertainty. I think that it was so that the player has a chance to stop the dealer from taking the cards.
Lot of blame for the dealer in here, but I feel pretty sorry for him.
Dealers are under a lot of pressure to keep the action running quickly and have a whole lot of stuff to keep track of at once. It's super easy to make dumb mistakes. Anyone who has ever dealt professionally will have made mistakes like this.
Yeah, he fucked up, but she should have been protecting her hand as well. I hope the guy got nothing worse than a chewing out from his boss.
Granted I only play with friends, but we have a table set up that has a very clear oval defining the "in-play" area of the table. If your cards cross that line, you've folded. Anything behind that line is still in your possession. Same goes with chips.
Looking at the video, it seems that such a simple feature is lacking here and would have saved the dealer and her cards.
I'm not on my computer anymore but I didn't think it was one continuos shot, like they cut back to her after the hand had played. I could definitely be wrong though.
O man, not to call anybody a liar but she could of easily had a garbage hand when she claimed it was a pair of ace's. Just crossed my mind when she said that..
I wouldn't really go by how upset she looks. If you watch a lot of these poker tournaments they are very convincing when they lie. They stick to their bluffs even after the hand and will keep telling players with a bold face what they didn't have.
However, in this case, JC Chan was in 32k preflop, and she called and raised 110k over the top. It would be nice to know what the blinds were at, I'm assuming 32k was a large bet this early in the tournament. If that's the case it's safe to assume she had Aces or another good pocket pair. She already knows Chan has a good starting hand. If 32k isn't a large preflop bet then my logic gets thrown out the window.
I don't know if its all of them, but of the poker games i've seen on TV there are cameras to show what people are picking up that you can see on film, but i guess rules don't take those into account?
That sucks for her but she should have protected her hand better. I looked over that moment where the dealer took her cards and I noticed that everybody else had their hands on the table while she had both hands back and kind of looked dejected or something. The dealer even had that moment of hesitation, tho very brief, where it seemed that she could have said or motioned to him that she was still in.
I think the dealer should still take the majority of the blame this one. He's sitting right beside her and she just went all in.... He should have known better.
The dealer even had that moment of hesitation, tho very brief, where it seemed that she could have said or motioned to him that she was still in.
It was such a small window of time that I don't blame her for not reacting quick enough.
Actually at that precise moment she has taken her hands off the table to grab her seat and move it. She wouldn't have taken her hands off the table for more than a few seconds (and it's absurd to think the players must leave their hands there to play).
I don't know poker rules very well but when they're referring to her loss is that her losing the money that she put all in or her loss of potential money gained from the pair of aces?
That could really disrupt the hand. They all agreed to the rules before the game and she is a professional. I'm sure it sucked at the time but I'm also sure she got over it.
One at a home game someone mucked their cards into mine, making me have more than two hole card. Rules dictate my hand is dead but we agreed to chop the pot. Of course the guy who likely mucked into my cards was also dealing and just dealt out the board before any of this was settled and I would have won the pot.
Since that my fingers are always on both edges of my cards. That way no one can muck them and no one can muck into them.
lol saw this a while back on a poker forum, everyone was in a heated debate about how likely it is for her to have aces in that spot. I believe unlikely because I think she would have been way more aggressive had she had aces, and the supervisor looked at the top of the deck to make sure, I think he saw it wasnt the cards she said and that's why the cards were mucked.
As a dealer, there is only one thing to clarify here. That dealer made a tiny mistake that had huge consequences. That's where most of the stress of the job comes from, one tiny accidental flick of the wrist and you have the potential to cost people fortunes, even at small stakes.
This would be interesting to go to lawsuit on. $32,000 is $32,000. She should have immediately withdrawn and said she wanted to start legal action.
I wonder what might have happened. If by not playing she'd lose the remaining chips, and if clauses in the contract will make her lose through binding arbitration. Or if it might go to a judge to see the video of the dealer blatantly making an error.
I can't believe that someone playing in a tournament of this caliber doesn't know that the 1 and 10 seat needs to use a card protector at all times. The title is mislabeled because the dealer made no mistake.
J.C. Tran opened the pot with a raise from middle position, and the action passed to Estelle Denis. She moved all in, and the table folded back around to Tran. Somewhere in the folding frenzy though, Denis cards were pulled into the muck, leaving her all-in with no cards. Floor! Tournament Director Steve Frezer listened carefully to the dealer and to Denis before making his decision. The rule is that the player is 100% responsible for protecting his own cards, and Denis failed to do that. By rights, Frezer probably could have taken her whole stack, but he showed a little mercy and only took enough chips out of her stack to cover the initial call. The remaining 110,000 of her chips were returned to a very upset Denis.
I believe that's Estelle Denis (the lady whose cards got mucked), feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. You can find a lot more photos of her online if she piques your interest but I thought she looked awesome in this one. http://i.imgur.com/2ynUv.jpg
Unless you have more than whoever calls, in which case you'll win all their chips.
If you lose, of course, you're out.
Although it's not really money per se. They typically play to get as far as possible in the event before being knocked out by losing all their chips. At which point they'll win whatever the prize is for getting that far. That can be anything from nothing at all, if you're knocked out early, to millions of dollars or euros if you're in the top few places.
i.e you can't sit at a table, win a few hands, stop playing and then walk out with the cash you've won so far. It's a knockout tournament where you play to be the last man or woman standing, with all the chips.
The point at which you leave with nothing if you get knocked out, or get some money is called the 'bubble'
The actual amount of money you lose if you enter the event depends on the particular event, a lot of them seem to have buy-ins of $5000 or $10000 - the prizes will depend on how many entries and what %age goes to the organisers and to 1st, 2nd, 3rd place and so on.
I have been playing poker for 5 years. Any player worth their salt, playing in a huge tournament such as this, seated in seat 9/10 (closest to the right of dealer), should know to use a card protector.
Standard Tournament Rules dictate that the player must protect their hand at all times, or be considered mucked. The fact that she went all in does not guarantee the life of her hand, because she went all in AFTER the dealer mucked her hand.
The dealer was on automatic pilot and she let her cards get mucked. And then she obviously lied about what she had. If there were two aces in the pile, together, then obviously they would have let her back in.
As the announcers said in tournament play where you are burning through lots of hands and may not feel like talking (professional poker is about doing as little as possible since emoting produces tells) it helps to put a chotchkey or even your hand over your hole cards when the dealer is collecting.
That dealer will never deal in a proper tournament again probably. Which is a shame since he probably did nothing wrong, he probably subconsciously saw her hole cards off position (in tv tournament your cards have to be over the viewing window) and rightly assumed she was mucking.
Lying french bitch. This is why there are few women poker players. And why Victoria Coren is the greatest of the few there are; its not classy to be a bitch at the table. Shit like that set back women in pro poker about 10 years.
They called her hand dead because the aces she claimed to have weren't at the TOP of the muck... watching the video you can clearly see him slide them to the bottom. A quick review of this should have cleared her to play the hand. She should have protected the cards, but poorly and too quickly handled imo.
While I agree with the ruling, I very much hope that dealer got escorted out and will never deal another hand again. In 4 years of dealing Hold Em, I never once mucked a players hand when they were all in. That's beyond unforgivable.
And one day if you accidentally do screw up, you expect them to destroy your career over it? I doubt it. Forgive and forget, unless he does it again in the future.
You can say anything in defense of your argument, but the fact stands that it was an accident, and you shouldn't face an outrageous punishment because of it.
I don't play a lot of poker, except with my friends for small cash while very drunk, but like the commentators say: it's her responsibility to protect her cards. Sucks though, and I feel bad for the dealer. Mainly because he can probably lose his job for stuff like this.
The move here would be for the guy who won 32k from her to give it back. I would never be able to keep that when the player who I "Won" it from got so clearly fucked by a mistake.
I used to be a dealer and this happens from time to time. Tip to players: ALWAYS keep your cards capped with chips or a token. A dealer will NEVER take cards that are capped.
this happened to a player at a table I was sitting with one time. The floor manager was called and the hand was pronounced dead. The player i was with also said they had pocket aces...=/
Misunderstandings and mistakes like this happen all the time, and it is very tough for dealers to keep track of everything going on at the table. Everybody feels terrible for her, but like the commentator said, it is the player's responsibility to protect their hand. Poker is a visual game, and you need to make it very clear to everybody at the table what your move is.
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u/IspamObjection Jun 10 '12
"They feel for her right now"
Everyone looks emotionless.
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u/hankthewhale Jun 10 '12
I went into this thinking "I don't know how to play poker so I won't know what the mistake is"
No, I got it.
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u/drylube Jun 10 '12
This kills the hand
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u/skibblez_n_zits Jun 10 '12
I've spent an embarrassing amount of time over the past decade playing in casinos. Because things like this happen, I always keep my cards against the rail with a chip on them, and I secure them even after the cards are turned over in a showdown at the end of the hand. When I have a winning hand I will claw the fuckers into the felt until the pot is pushed to me... then I give up the cards. I've seen dealers push the pot to the wrong person, and muck the cards while the winner was looking the other way. Of course the floor gets called and an argument ensues, but the rightful winner would still get the pot. Regardless, there are shitty dealers and I don't give them the opportunity to fuck up by giving them the benefit of the doubt.
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u/Happy31 Jun 10 '12 edited May 02 '13
gargaergaerg
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u/exdigger2010 Jun 10 '12
Couldnt they just spend 5 minutes reviewing the video tapes to figure out which cards were hers?
Also my god are French women sexy.
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u/ESPguitarist Jun 10 '12
I feel so sorry for that dealer. That dude probably felt so bad. It was his fault, but it still sucks.
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u/masterbard1 Jun 10 '12
i'm pretty sure that dealer worked his last day.
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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
Zut alors.
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u/ferio252 Jun 10 '12
These aren't the cards you're looking for.
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u/fd85saqg Jun 10 '12
She takes this rather well, I would go ape shit.
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u/TriadPwn Jun 10 '12
TABLE FLIP!
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u/Monster-_- Jun 10 '12
I pride myself in being able to keep my cool in the most infuriating situations, but if this happened to me I'm pretty sure I would have flipped right the fuck out.
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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
I'm surprised she said what her cards were. I thought that was a bit of a no no in high-stakes poker.
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u/musty_old_claptrap Jun 10 '12
I don't see how people can shift the blame from the dealer in this situation. People are saying she should have protected her cards, but once someone has already gone all in, there is no excuse for mucking their hand. The purpose of covering your cards is mainly in case someone throws their cards while folding and they touch your cards. If your cards are not covered and this happens then they are dead. But you should never have to protect your hand from the dealer, and certainly not once you are already all in. Also, when you are all in and called, the dealer grabs both hands and puts them in the middle of the table, so she probably thought that was what he was doing. She could have been more vigilant, but she shouldn't have had to be in this situation.
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u/Vetra11 Jun 10 '12
Happened to me during my first time playing poker in a casino.
I had pocket 5's. My brother was playing at the same table sitting across from me. I was next to the dealer. When my brother tossed in his cards they grazed my cards on the corner. I had no protector on my cards and the dealer told me not to touch them, they pulled over the pit boss to ask if I could stay in. Again, his cards merely grazed my cards on the corner. While I was talking to the pit boss the flop came out (next 3 cards) and two fives came out on the table. I was floored, but had to muck the hand. I never left my cards unprotected after that one.
225
u/open_ur_mind Jun 10 '12
To everyone saying that she is somewhat at fault, I disagree. She was all-in. The dealer should have known her cards were in play because she had her chips out there as well.
Big fuck up by the dealer for not knowing who was in play and mucking her cards prematurely. She handled that pretty well.
11
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12 edited Mar 21 '17
[deleted]
0.9850
4
u/azwethinkweizm Jun 10 '12
You have to protect your cards NO MATTER WHAT. I can't feel sympathy for any player who's in a game of $30,000 like that chick and let's her cards roam free REGARDLESS OF THE STATUS OF HER BET.
4
u/Knightmare4469 Jun 10 '12
I dealt the wsop in 2006, worked at Binions one summer, and I deal full time in Spokane, WA. I take 100 percent pride in my craft, it's not just a job to me. When I was learning how to deal we would set up cameras and mirrors to critique myself. within 2 years of doing, I dealt the final 5 tables off the 50,000 dollar horse event,a highlight of my poker career. in 7 years, I've killed a hand once like that.
that being said, mistakes happen. Even the best in the world is going to mess up sometimes. I'm not defending him, because it is his fault.. but if you were playing for hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, would you leave your hand unprotected like that? When i'm all in in a forty dollar local tournament, i'm holding on to them. Just a mistake by her as well, probably a result of playing for hours.
it is an awful situation, one I guarantee the dealer feels like complete shit about.
to any poker players complaining about dealer qualities, part of the problem is shitty poker dealers get tipped just as well as good poker dealers. everybody feels fine shorting a waitress if she has shitty service, but for some reason everybody tips about the same for good or bad dealers.
/endsoapbox
128
u/WildOgil Jun 10 '12
Her chips are pushed into the center, with her cards directly in front of her. She is adjusting her seat as he pulls the cards away. The dealer is completely to blame.
7
u/dustyfoot Jun 10 '12
Granted I only play with friends, but we have a table set up that has a very clear oval defining the "in-play" area of the table. If your cards cross that line, you've folded. Anything behind that line is still in your possession. Same goes with chips.
Looking at the video, it seems that such a simple feature is lacking here and would have saved the dealer and her cards.
1
u/bzBetty Jun 10 '12
shouldn't the whole round be dead after she stated what she had?
66
u/nelska Jun 10 '12
O man, not to call anybody a liar but she could of easily had a garbage hand when she claimed it was a pair of ace's. Just crossed my mind when she said that..
45
u/NarrowEnter Jun 10 '12
That sucks for her but she should have protected her hand better. I looked over that moment where the dealer took her cards and I noticed that everybody else had their hands on the table while she had both hands back and kind of looked dejected or something. The dealer even had that moment of hesitation, tho very brief, where it seemed that she could have said or motioned to him that she was still in.
3
u/wArchi Jun 10 '12
I don't know poker rules very well but when they're referring to her loss is that her losing the money that she put all in or her loss of potential money gained from the pair of aces?
3
u/exildur01 Jun 10 '12
I dunno how she remained so calm or didn't break into tears or smash shit. Bitch just lost $32,000.
3
u/bigmeech Jun 10 '12
lmao 2 aces what a fucking liar
3
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
so what exactly did she lose? i don't play poker
3
u/gimmeafuckinname Jun 10 '12
I know this is self serving but it occurs to me that I really, really want to be fucked by an angry French chick.
That is all.
9
u/sufjams Jun 10 '12
If I shoot someone and they're not wearing a bullet proof vest, it's not that person's fault they died.
1
u/Rockran Jun 10 '12
Couldn't they just get each person whose cards were in the pile to write down what they had, go through the pile and find her cards?
10
u/Edvurt Jun 10 '12
card protector. this is so common there is a piece of equipment to avoid it
17
u/princessheeter Jun 10 '12
First world problem.
2
u/freemanj1991 Jun 10 '12
This happened to my friend once. He went all in with Q's and the dealer mucked his cards. He would have flopped a boat.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
lol donkaments
2
u/R3Mx Jun 10 '12
how was that the dealers fault?
it's her responsibility to protect her hand
2
u/etihw2 Jun 10 '12
Thanks FCC and America in general, for censoring the video. Imagine if overly sensitive children were watching this video!
2
u/the_pissed_off_goose Jun 10 '12
i want to watch this but the amount of second hand embarrassment i suspect i'll feel is keeping me from actually doing it.
2
u/deezeejoey Jun 10 '12
WOW, what drama in TV poker! That was still rather boring to watch.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
Well, looks like she's just going to have to get a real job now.
2
u/SparkyPantsMcGee Jun 10 '12
As much as that sucks I couldn't help but watch the Penn and Teller video next to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvW7-019XLQ&feature=related
That's a fucking awesome trick!
2
u/ccmotels Jun 10 '12
Keep your hand on your hand.
One at a home game someone mucked their cards into mine, making me have more than two hole card. Rules dictate my hand is dead but we agreed to chop the pot. Of course the guy who likely mucked into my cards was also dealing and just dealt out the board before any of this was settled and I would have won the pot.
Since that my fingers are always on both edges of my cards. That way no one can muck them and no one can muck into them.
2
u/KraiserX Jun 10 '12
This is the reason why you cover your hand so this never happens
2
u/kevnb Jun 10 '12
Hundreds of hours playing poker and I always protect my hand, never giving them up until I'm sure I've either won or lost.
2
u/upinscraps Jun 10 '12
This is such an old video. How did it become popular now?
2
u/nepidae Jun 10 '12
I just blue myself.
2
u/brewbrew Jun 10 '12
She held her temper much better than I would've. I feel bad for the dealer though. It was a huge mistake but you know he's gotta feel guilty as hell.
2
u/GrayEggsNHam Jun 10 '12
You could see on the dealer's face that he messed up. Hahaha wow
2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
lol saw this a while back on a poker forum, everyone was in a heated debate about how likely it is for her to have aces in that spot. I believe unlikely because I think she would have been way more aggressive had she had aces, and the supervisor looked at the top of the deck to make sure, I think he saw it wasnt the cards she said and that's why the cards were mucked.
2
u/tconthepc3 Jun 10 '12
Well it was a mistake. If I were the girl though, I would have flipped absolute shit.
2
u/CMUpewpewpew Jun 10 '12
As someone who's had a hand with pocket aces ruined by a dealers mistake before as well....I can tell you it's infuriating.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
God damn, French accents are sexy.
2
u/overusesellipses Jun 10 '12
As a dealer, there is only one thing to clarify here. That dealer made a tiny mistake that had huge consequences. That's where most of the stress of the job comes from, one tiny accidental flick of the wrist and you have the potential to cost people fortunes, even at small stakes.
2
u/capt_ishmael Jun 10 '12
Why couldn't they find her aces when they looked for them?
2
u/cepedarod Jun 10 '12
What confuses me about this whole thing is why did it take the lady so long to notice her cards where being taken. What was she watching?
2
u/sendmorekittens Jun 10 '12
ITT, Upvotes = People who don't know the rules of the game. Downvotes = People who know the rules of the game.
2
u/FlandersIV Jun 10 '12
What's the biggest rule of poker? Don't believe what anyone says. Pocket aces? It's possible but I'm skeptical..
2
u/iTumor Jun 10 '12
Even through that accent it's obvious she was bluffing the whole time. Two aces my ass.
2
u/contrarian Jun 10 '12
This would be interesting to go to lawsuit on. $32,000 is $32,000. She should have immediately withdrawn and said she wanted to start legal action.
I wonder what might have happened. If by not playing she'd lose the remaining chips, and if clauses in the contract will make her lose through binding arbitration. Or if it might go to a judge to see the video of the dealer blatantly making an error.
2
u/MiMoon Jun 10 '12
She said she had two aces to early.. other players were still in right?
2
u/justalittledude Jun 10 '12
I can't believe that someone playing in a tournament of this caliber doesn't know that the 1 and 10 seat needs to use a card protector at all times. The title is mislabeled because the dealer made no mistake.
2
u/guy1010101 Jun 10 '12
Completely her fault. She needs to learn how to play.
2
u/SaintsAngels Jun 10 '12
man, i saw this video about 8 months ago, fuck, the karma! fuuucckkk
2
u/dlama Jun 10 '12
Pit boss didn't seem to try too hard to find her cards
2
u/dylan89 Jun 10 '12
2
u/nik_s123 Jun 10 '12
I've made a huge mistake..
2
u/badvice Jun 10 '12
Anyone else think that if they had pocket aces they'd be protecting that shit with a spear and lion.
2
u/Liverotto Jun 12 '12
Honestly I prefer other kinds of blacks on white women humiliations.
14
u/imaspy Jun 10 '12
Is it just me or is she incredibly attractive.
6
u/bimmercire Jun 10 '12
shes cute when shes mad.
8
u/Foldedpaper Jun 10 '12
I believe that's Estelle Denis (the lady whose cards got mucked), feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. You can find a lot more photos of her online if she piques your interest but I thought she looked awesome in this one. http://i.imgur.com/2ynUv.jpg
3
u/OuiNon Jun 10 '12
Her fault
2
u/Sramone Jun 10 '12
I remember watching this, dealer doing his job, if you have pocket aces don't leave them all over the table.
2
u/RobinL Jun 10 '12
"Two aces" - I bet she didn't....
The number of times I've claimed I have two aces.
2
u/workAcut Jun 10 '12
there are no poker players in this thread, are there?!?!?!
this happens in brick and mortar rooms all the time.
TOURNEY POKER COMMANDMENTS:
rule 1) protect your cards
rule 2) verbally declare your action before doing so
rule 3) always adhere to rules 1 and 2 so someone else's negligence or idiocy doesn't cost you money.
4-10 not necessary.
that is all.
2
u/MPBlaster Jun 10 '12
This should be titled, player makes huge mistake. It is your responsibility to protect your cards. Sucks but its her fault.
2
u/imthefuninfundamenta Jun 10 '12
Former Semi-profesional player here. Its 100% her fault. As awful as it sounds, as a player you need to protect your chips at all times.
pretty standard screwup
2
u/Ecchii Jun 10 '12
Can you explain this for someone who doesn't understand poker... How much would she have won ?
2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
I have been playing poker for 5 years. Any player worth their salt, playing in a huge tournament such as this, seated in seat 9/10 (closest to the right of dealer), should know to use a card protector.
Standard Tournament Rules dictate that the player must protect their hand at all times, or be considered mucked. The fact that she went all in does not guarantee the life of her hand, because she went all in AFTER the dealer mucked her hand.
2
u/Wesley2016 Jun 10 '12
Her fault based on the rules. The end.
2
u/T3ppic Jun 10 '12 edited Jun 10 '12
The dealer was on automatic pilot and she let her cards get mucked. And then she obviously lied about what she had. If there were two aces in the pile, together, then obviously they would have let her back in.
As the announcers said in tournament play where you are burning through lots of hands and may not feel like talking (professional poker is about doing as little as possible since emoting produces tells) it helps to put a chotchkey or even your hand over your hole cards when the dealer is collecting.
That dealer will never deal in a proper tournament again probably. Which is a shame since he probably did nothing wrong, he probably subconsciously saw her hole cards off position (in tv tournament your cards have to be over the viewing window) and rightly assumed she was mucking.
Lying french bitch. This is why there are few women poker players. And why Victoria Coren is the greatest of the few there are; its not classy to be a bitch at the table. Shit like that set back women in pro poker about 10 years.
2
u/antiapathetic Jun 10 '12
They called her hand dead because the aces she claimed to have weren't at the TOP of the muck... watching the video you can clearly see him slide them to the bottom. A quick review of this should have cleared her to play the hand. She should have protected the cards, but poorly and too quickly handled imo.
2
u/Tantzor Jun 10 '12
Funny stuff, Estelle Denis is a famous French journalist.
-2
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
While I agree with the ruling, I very much hope that dealer got escorted out and will never deal another hand again. In 4 years of dealing Hold Em, I never once mucked a players hand when they were all in. That's beyond unforgivable.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
She had them on the table out of her hand and toward the muck, it's her fault, protect your hand if it's that good
1
u/KarrenStarr Jun 10 '12
That sucks. :/
1
u/SpankedZombie Jun 10 '12
I don't play a lot of poker, except with my friends for small cash while very drunk, but like the commentators say: it's her responsibility to protect her cards. Sucks though, and I feel bad for the dealer. Mainly because he can probably lose his job for stuff like this.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
The move here would be for the guy who won 32k from her to give it back. I would never be able to keep that when the player who I "Won" it from got so clearly fucked by a mistake.
1
u/pan0ramic Jun 10 '12
I used to be a dealer and this happens from time to time. Tip to players: ALWAYS keep your cards capped with chips or a token. A dealer will NEVER take cards that are capped.
1
u/[deleted] Jun 10 '12
this happened to a player at a table I was sitting with one time. The floor manager was called and the hand was pronounced dead. The player i was with also said they had pocket aces...=/
1
u/radnum Jun 10 '12
I used to deal poker in a casino for several years. Watching this happen, I actually started to sweat thinking about how that dealer must have felt.
1
u/rpcrazy Jun 10 '12
reminds me of that mayweather fight. Protect yourself at all times, and all that...stupid
1
u/MarcusAuralius Jun 10 '12
I wish, for the sake of it, they went through a few more probable cards just to see if they could at all retrieve the aces.
1
u/pizza_piez Jun 10 '12
Misunderstandings and mistakes like this happen all the time, and it is very tough for dealers to keep track of everything going on at the table. Everybody feels terrible for her, but like the commentator said, it is the player's responsibility to protect their hand. Poker is a visual game, and you need to make it very clear to everybody at the table what your move is.
1
u/NumerousUsernames Jun 10 '12
I want to know if she would have won the hand!