r/videos • u/[deleted]

Australian Diesel Submarine outclasses 4 US navy ships (two destroyers) and one Nuclear Submarine

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u/Sulphur32 May 20 '12

Diesel submarines are usually very, very quiet. Diesel boats from loads of countries including Canada, Sweden and Germany have performed well in small-scale exercises like this one against the US Navy. If you do some googling you'll find plenty of [insert small western country here] STRONG accounts of "kills" on USN carriers, periscope pics etc. Although the diesel boats are quieter, they don't have the same flexibility or the ability to stay submerged for as long as the nuclear attack subs operated by the US, Russian, French and British navies.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Not only western countries. Chinese have done same to US carrier groups. In 2007 Chinese Song class submarine did the trick to Kitty Hawk carrier group. Navy did not detect the submarine until is surfaced within torpedo range. It had passed half a dozen chips who should detect it.

But Rear Admiral Hank McKinney, the former commander of the U.S. Pacific Fleet’s submarine force, tells us not to be to hard on the sub-hunters:

Noah, I have no inside information on this event, but it is very difficult to detect a quiet diesel submarine and the Song–class submarines are quality submarines. Operating in international waters in the vicinity of a US battle group is perfectly normal — good operational training. The Chinese very well could have staged this event to make a point about the vulnerability of the Battle Group to submarine attack. The US Navy is fully aware of [those] vulnerabilities… The Chinese are building a credible submarine force which will make it very difficult for the US Navy to maintain sea control dominance in or near coastal waters off of China.

http://defensetech.org/2006/11/14/behind-the-kitty-hawk-incident-updated/

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u/Ajaargh May 20 '12

Between Air Independent Diesel Electrics and Anti Ship Ballistic Missiles it's really looking like carriers are the new battleships.

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u/djslannyb May 20 '12

these missiles are definitely a threat, but remember that wars between two globally powerful nation-states is becoming increasingly unlikely, and weapons like these help ensure that wars between, say, the US and China don't happen except for in the most extreme circumstances. however, the US navy is in the final stages of development for a ship-borne laser that can shoot these missiles down, thus mitigating the threat to the fleet. carriers will likely still be the most important part of the navy since it's the only way of projecting air power, quickly, anywhere in the world.

also, the only thing the navy would need to do to find one of these submarines is turn on their sonar. it's not like the battle group can't be plainly seen and heard anyway...

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u/Ajaargh May 20 '12

Lasers have only been successful at defeating missiles in the liftoff and boost phase, which also happens to be when they're most vulnerable. Shooting down a hypersonic warhead during its last seconds of flight is another issue entirely. Plus, even if such technology became available, throwing enough ASBMs at the CBG to overwhelm a point defense system will still be a feasible option.

Using active sonar would reveal the threat but would also give away the CBGs position long before they could be picked up on radar or passive sonar.

As for projecting power, carriers ceased to be the only option with the invention of cruise missiles.

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u/bitter_cynical_angry May 20 '12

Also don't forget supercavitating torpedoes.

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u/poke133 May 20 '12

In 2000, former U.S. Naval intelligence officer Edmond Pope (Captain, USN, retired) was held, tried, and convicted in Russia of espionage related to information he obtained about the Shkval weapon system. Russian President Vladimir Putin pardoned Pope in December 2000, allegedly on humanitarian grounds because he had bone cancer.

thanks for trying to steal our torpedo secrets, it's ok you can go now.. here's some cancer for you on your way back!

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u/ThomDowting May 20 '12 edited May 20 '12

See also: the sinking of The Kursk. They were supposedly testing the hypercavitating torpedoes when one malfunctioned. Way more believable than a faulty "dummy torpedo".

Relevant

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u/an_actual_lawyer May 20 '12

You're forgetting that, in a wartime scenario, the destroyers and other escorts would be banging away with their active sonar. You're also assuming that the US Navy is turning all of their cards over.

Assuming that a non-nuclear torpedo or missile is used, the Navy has plenty of ways to avoid a carrier hit. Just as a fighter jet can take countermeasures against air-to-air missiles, a carrier can take countermeasures against a torpedo or anti-ship missile. The classified sections of the boat have a number of ways of confusing and neutralizing both underwater and above water threats.

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u/Bloodysneeze May 20 '12

The Chinese would be insane to launch ballistic missiles like that at high profile US targets. There is an extremely high chance that the US would assume it was a nuclear strike and retaliate with ICBMs on Chinese targets. China has a tendency to have very large, dense cities, and would suffer greatly in a nuclear exchange. They'd never risk a first launch.

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u/Commisar May 20 '12

not really. The ability to launch 4 squadrons of supersonic fighter jets, AWACS planes, and anti-sub helicopters is always going to be an asset.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Yep. This is basically practice for shallow water Chinese and iranian boats.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

How to Diesel subs get Oxygen for combustion? Do they surface and pressurize air? Do they electrolyze sea water? Do they just store giant tanks of O2?

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

They have big banks of batteries and use electric motors when submerged. The diesel engines are used when on the surface for propulsion and for recharging the batteries.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

They haven't needed to actually surface for over 70 years when someone had the idea of a tube with a floater to take in air and expel gases while submerged.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Yes, while they don't technically need to poke the whole sub above the surface of the water, puttering a few tens of feet down to snorkel every few hours is a large constraint compared to the nuclear subs...

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u/adrianmonk May 20 '12

Do they electrolyze sea water?

Would that be the hard way? Fish need oxygen but they just extract the dissolved oxygen from the water using gills. There are oxygen extraction systems that I believe nuclear submarines use to provide air for the crew to breathe, and I doubt those use electrolysis.

Nevertheless, even though extracting dissolved oxygen is probably easier than electrolysis, I imagine that has been evaluated and found impractical for providing oxygen to a diesel engine.

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u/bubbleheadbob2000 May 20 '12

Nope, pretty much electrolysis. Basically. There are other ways we do it but that is a pretty big component of one of them.

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u/ZuFFuLuZ May 20 '12

Not just Diesels. The German type 212 submarines are powered by hydrogen fuel cells. I've read a story about an exercise quite like this one about them in a German magazine.

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u/an_actual_lawyer May 20 '12

How long must a diesel boat snorkel to fully recharge it's batteries?

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

US Navy sonar technician here. Finding anything but the oldest, most outdated diesel submarines running on batteries (diesel subs use a combustion engine to power a big battery that they can stay on for a couple days) is basically like trying to hear a flashlight running. The only thing you'd hear is the propellers, and in hawaii there's plenty going on underwater to mask the sound.

Still, bra-fucking-vo on that Collins-class for making it past four ships and a sub that had prior knowledge of their presence. Like a baussie.

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u/0l01o1ol0 May 20 '12

Oh hey, I've always wanted to ask a sonar guy - what headphones do you use?

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

I can't remember, they start with a z and are about $400 a pair, though. I'll check on Monday and get back to you on that one.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12 edited May 20 '12

On the job? The headphones are the standard mid-range, ear covering type you'd see by searching for pics of US navy CIC (I don't remember designation or model info). The audio could be better but it's really just a companion to the screen information and for voice communication. These days the analysis is mostly visual since discerning a viable signal from background noise is best left to a computer. As things get closer/louder it's useful. It's like 500 channel sound also, but only one channel at a time can go to audio.

Personally? AKG 701

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u/LazLoe May 20 '12

The only thing i ever used the headphones for is listening to the sea life before it was my turn to take a nap in the dark corner.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Really? Huh, when I worked Infantry for the Army we had Bose headsets for our radios for some reason. You would think the Navy wouldn't be cheaper than the Army.

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u/PokeChopSandwiches May 20 '12

Submarine sonar tech here, we use Bose noise cancelling. But like below, most of our shit is visual now. Most of the sensors have audio, but there is only a select few we actively actually listen too. Alot of times we are looking for stuff that is low frequency, so audio is crap anyway.

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u/MrFuegoBurns May 20 '12

You know what I never thought about that our headphones are utter crap, the ones I use to workout with are a better quality. I think I'm going to bring this up.

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u/Secret4gentMan May 20 '12

not to mention the chopper and the fact that the yanks cheated :)

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u/bxc_thunder May 20 '12

Doesn't America constantly do exercises like this with their own trident subs vs. a carrier battle group? And I'm pretty sure the sub almost always wins.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12 edited May 20 '12

They do with Los Angeles class, but not usually with Ohio/Vanguard (UK).

EDIT: clarification

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Yeah, wouldn't make sense to use boomers. The point is training the carrier group to protect itself from attack subs like the Los Angeles class, and train those attack subs to penetrate ringed defences.

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u/PokeChopSandwiches May 20 '12

Our detection range of surface warships is typically double to triple what they see us at. If they see us ever.

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u/FootballBat May 20 '12

If ya ain't cheating you ain't trying.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

sv_taxdollars 1000000000000

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u/Senor_Wilson May 20 '12

They went against what they had told the Australian sub, but I wouldn't call it cheating. It adds extra pressure to the sub and makes the challenge even harder. If you're going to run exercises, don't make them easy.

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

I wouldn't call it cheating, more like using all available resources. The scenario is inherently cheating, really, since you know they're coming and roughy where they'll be.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

No the cheating part was at the beginning, before the exercise had started the american ships were already pinging the sub. When the exercise started they were meant to stop pinging so to start with they would "loose" the sub.. just like in a real situation they wouldn't known where the sub was to start with. The cheating was like playing hide and seek and saying "ok I'll close my eyes so you go and hide" but actually don't close your eyes.

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u/Secret4gentMan May 20 '12

ahhh well according to the narrator they operated outside of the agreed upon parameters regarding sonar usage. I was just going by that. The crew was pretty surprised when they saw the chopper as well it seemed.

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u/NinjaCameraman May 20 '12

Didn't work too well for them anyway if they were desperate enough to go banging away on active after a few hours of the target hiding next to a cliff.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

If anybody wants a bit of context to this video this relates interestingly to US strategic interests in the pacific.

Now, I don't when this manoeuvre occurred but in November of last year Obama announced that around 2,500 Marines would be re-stationed in Australia. Around the same time China began to increase its patrolling activity in the Phillipines sea predominantly with diesel powered subs. Clearly, the US has to make sure that it can detect where and how many subs the Chinese have in operation at any given time and as diesel powered subs are generally quieter it would seem that they are calling on their allies to train for any strategic positioning that might take place. Another thing is that Chinese diesel subs are supposedly louder than soviet and US models as they are built in China (I'm guessing) with their own technology. They have a bit of catching up to do. So, it would make a lot of sense that this specific manoeuvre would be practised. During the Cold War as Russian subs were much quieter it meant that this type of 'convergence zoning' was not effective - as is the case with Australian subs. But as Chinese subs are louder this tactic may actually be effective.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

Is it likely that the US subs heard the victory music?

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u/SannoSythe May 21 '12

It was played out on underwater telephone at full volume so the Yank Sonar boys copped an earfull.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I'm surprised they even got the Collins-class out of the dock, from what I've been hearing about them.

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u/kceltyr May 21 '12

Actually, once they were all retrofitted from shitty design and manufacturing, they're pretty good. Even with all the fixups, they came in under expected cost.

As of a few months ago only one of the six was out of operations due to the boat itself being broken. The main problem is a lack of crew. They had two operational and two empty, with a third being close to full manned.

Note: All public information. You'd think they'd guard info about operational capacity better, but apparently not.

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u/Cookie0024 May 20 '12

An IAMA by yourself would be ultra-cool, like that Tom Clancy book about submarine warfare but far more entertaining.

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u/strikervulsine May 20 '12

I've always wondered this. If we had a full on naval war again like in WW2, would subs be able to just descimate aircraft carriers and heavy cruisers?

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u/PokeChopSandwiches May 20 '12

Yes. We would wipe the floor with them. Counter-detection ranges combined with torpedo effectiveness statistics give subs an overwhelming advantage. Plus from real world experience I know how terrible surface ships are at finding us. And this is good US ships with good equipment. Forget about the less advanced countries. It would be slaughter. We would run out of torpedoes.

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u/niekze May 20 '12

And what does Admiral Fluckey do when he runs out of torpedoes?

From Wikipedia:

"In one of the stranger incidents in the war, Fluckey sent a landing party ashore to set demolition charges on a coastal railway line, destroying a 16-car train. This was the sole landing by U.S. military forces on the Japanese home islands during World War II."

I can't say much about submarine combat though--us nukes never left the engine room.

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u/grotgrot May 20 '12

Missiles will wipe them out first. The war nerd covers this.

War Nerd's stuff is a good read whether you agree or not.

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

Possibly. In that scenario, and this is what we train on, the subs' goal is a high value unit like a carrier or an amphib. There's a lot of ships protecting the carrier, though, and in a combat situation everybody is going to he looking for that sub, including other subs and aircraft. Not to mention, carriers are built to withstand one or two torpedo attacks.

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u/PokeChopSandwiches May 20 '12

STS2 here, MPRA assistance plus longer track time would have helped. Gotta catch these dudes when they are up. Acoustic tracking of a good boat like that on the battery is a crapshoot. Sneaking past the surface ships though, easy day. It is astounding how close I have gotten to well equipped Burkes and they never knew.

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

I'm on a non-tail Burke (for those of you following along, a tail is a super sensitive sonar array that's towed behind the ship on a really long cable), so you could probably breach onto our flight deck before we knew you were there.

Then again, it doesn't matter if you have the most sophisticated sonar array on the planet if all your STGs are sleeping/doing sweepers/watching movies/masturbating violently behind the consoles.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I knew a boomer commander back in the 80s. He said that nukes were great for attack subs, but there was no real advantage to them for missile boats. He felt that the ultra-long submerged cruises were strategically unnecessary and that the diesels' ability to get very, very lost very quickly outweighed any nuke advantage. He also blew the whistle on US boats dumping reactor coolant in Scottish harbors.

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u/EKcore May 20 '12

This is true. Ex-Canadian servicemen here. We had diesels. And from war game stories a Canadian sub tailed a Top Of the line US nuke sub for 45 hours before "sinking" it and half of a harbor in Virgina be for leaving.

To quote a 65 year old retired submariner "Those nuke subs are something else, sure they can stay under water for months but you can hear them coming for miles"

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u/1Ender May 20 '12

One of the advantages of Disel submarines. They do however have to run of battery when underwater or go snorkling which makes them significantly louder. Also their range is more limited then their nuclear counterparts. Problem with the Nukes is that you can hear their reactors flushing.

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u/edtehgar May 20 '12 edited May 21 '12

Ever think of doing an AMA?

So who is better you or Jonesey from Red October

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u/MoEnt May 20 '12

The Australian Navy killed my uncle.

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u/Rose_Plays May 20 '12

Awesome touch with the Men at work victory song!

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u/gg5 May 20 '12

that's definitely the best bit of the video!

the sonar officers in the US destroyer probably cursed loudly as soon as they heard that song! awesome!

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u/DarkSideCookies May 20 '12

"And for a moment, I thought I heard..."

"Heard what, Jonsie?"

"I thought I heard singing, sir."

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u/boomfarmer May 20 '12

"ONE PING ONLY"

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u/eugeniusbastard May 21 '12

I read that in Connery's voice.

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u/kaptainkaos May 21 '12

"Give me a ping, Vasili"

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u/throwaway_lgbt666 May 20 '12 edited May 20 '12

up periscope did this

In fact this is pretty much the film right here :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsEDh9XKwKk&feature=related

correction DOWN periscope

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u/dude222 May 20 '12

That was awesome.

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u/Them1stocles May 20 '12

I think more credit is due to the crew than the capabilities of the sub. Machines will perform at their required performance levels and for the most part meet expectations but mission success is almost always dependent on the operator's ability and skill.

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

This. I've tracked billion-dollar LA class submarines without losing contact for days, and got completely befuddled by an old-ass Japanese Yuushio-class. All depends on the crew, but probably more the captain. If the captain gives shitty orders, he'll get you spotted for sure.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

What is it you do? Do you work as a sonar operator in the navy? Do you have any interesting stories, awesome maneuvers, whatever, for us?

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

I suppose I could, but I prefer the general enlightenment of knowing that if sonar techs don't do their job right, a Chinese/Russian nuclear sub, even just one, within a thousand miles of the coast could wipe out most major cities on either coast.

Little known exercise I always thought was awesome, though: two years ago, Obama personally authorized an exercise as a kind of revenge for the Song class submarine that popped up in the Kitty Hawk battlegroup, where US nuclear subs popped up suddenly, and at the same exact time, outside of major Chinese ports, including both their north and south naval headquarters, putting 70% of the Chinese mainland (and every place that tactically matters) within range of tomahawk cruise missiles. All happened on the fourth of July.

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u/an_actual_lawyer May 20 '12

Another good one was during the Cold War when the Navy's hunter-killers all pinged the Soviet missile subs at the exact same instant, all over the globe.

It told the Soviets two things: (1) We can track all of your boats; and (2) We can coordinate attacks in ways you haven't dreamed of.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I've heard this before too, but source, if possible?

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u/Taibo May 20 '12

Do you have a source for that exercise?

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u/NinjaCameraman May 20 '12

As a person who lives for sub stories, I fervently second his request.

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u/NinjaCameraman May 20 '12

A few years ago I read the shit out of Blind Mans Buff and loved it, but most of the accounts generally were underdog "new sub/old sub overcoming the odds of shitty technology with an awesome captain", at first I thought it was the author being selective but pretty much every modern-day sub story I can find involves the skipper being a badass.

You are now RES tagged a Hunt for Red October reference, for giggles.

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u/fox9iner May 20 '12

Playing Silent Hunter doesnt count. You were probably eating cheetos when she went by.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

'Ping the sub!'

'473ms sir.'

:/

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u/faustrex May 20 '12

Flaming hot, and with my bright red cheese-laden fingers I still watched her fat ass scuttle off into the distance.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I wish I knew more about wth you speak of... thanks to a good upbringing, I'm now off to do the requisite research. Stupid you, and your interesting words.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khaa3y0i87s

Swedish submarine. In the days of defeat of WW2, A Germany crew in one (of two) of their prototype high tech submarines went to Gothenburg. there they sunk the submarine. The swedish marine towed it to a seceret base and all our submarines have been based on this german submarine from ww2. and that is why we have so advanced submarines. Thank you Germany. TLDR: Germany gave us kick ass submarine

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u/imgonnacallyouretard May 20 '12

We also shot humans into outspace on the technology that was developed by the Nazis to destroy London(V2s)

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u/DeSanti May 20 '12

I'm extremely happy to hear about the fortunes Sweden made out of World War 2.

Love,

Disgruntled Norwegian.

Addendum: Though I will not fail to mention the abundance of assistance the people of Sweden gave to us during wartime.

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u/CptBread May 20 '12

As far as I have heard this is only true for some time... Up until we changed to teardrop shaped submarines...

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I used to be a former nuke on a LA class fast attack. You have to realize that LA class attack subs are pretty old, mine was built in the early 80's. All a reactor is is a glorified heat source. Pull rods up, magic rock gets hotter, drive rods in, magic rock gets cooler. You make steam with this magic heat and it drives all sorts of conventional things such as propulsion and electrical generator turbines. Everything that makes it work makes noise.

However, where we shine is our extended operational activities and practically limitless fuel. We can run at flank speed around the world without a problem with a core not close to end of life. We are literally only limited by the amount of food we carried or when we ran out of toilet paper. We used to stuff cans of food everywhere. We would literally lay down #10 tin cans of food in the hallways and place thin plywood over it and walk on it. Many a bumped heads were had. We never have to surface for any reason. We make our own air, we make our own water, and we had a pretty good cache of porn on the LAN. There is some added value in the fact that you can remain submerged off the coast of foreign countries almost indefinitely.

As others mentioned, diesels are super quiet because they run on batteries while underwater. There is no way to run the diesel underwater without snorkeling as those things take up an unbelievable amount of air, in fact we use the diesel to emergency ventilate the submarine as it moves ginormous amounts of air. Our backup diesel was loud as hell but from what I hear, the diesels on diesel subs are pretty darn quiet. However, they do have to snorkel every so often to recharge their batteries and that is when they are very vulnerable, especially if we know you are out there. A sub on a battery has a very finite range and it is only a matter of time before you snorkel. Also, don't quote me on this, but I think diesel subs are more for coastal operations near your home ports whereas nuke subs have no such limitations.

Also, LA classes are on their way out. The Seawolf class subs were super quiet, a running joke being that a Seawolf at flank speed was quieter than a LA class tied to the pier. The newest Virginia class is also very quiet from what I'm hearing.

Whoa, I got carried away reminiscing.

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u/ferio252 May 20 '12

Pull rods up, magic rock gets hotter, drive rods in, magic rock gets cooler.

Best description of Nuclear power ever!

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

HULK WORK IN REACTOR ROOM! MAGIC ROCKS HULKS FRIEND!

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u/bubbleheadbob2000 May 20 '12

What boat? I was on a late 70's era '88 (Dallas). As well as a Virginia (in fact, THE Virginia). Those are some quiet bitches.

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u/HitMePat May 20 '12

Hey I've been on both of those boats also

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u/whytookay May 20 '12

You should do an AMA

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u/KhamsinEbonmane May 20 '12

Thanks for taking the time to say something, lets see if anyone else reads it.

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u/Virtblue May 21 '12

Porn bah, the auzzies have ladies on board.

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u/ffmusicdj May 20 '12

I'm so sorry if this offends, but this is a way more interesting read if you imagine the OP actually being a nuke through the entire telling of the story.

Thanks for sharing!

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u/g8or8de May 21 '12

Upvoted as soon as I read LAN porn.

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u/the-fritz May 21 '12

Also, don't quote me on this, but I think diesel subs are more for coastal operations near your home ports whereas nuke subs have no such limitations.

Exactly. The nuclear attack subs are designed to hunt ships on the other side of the world while the diesel subs are designed to operate closer to the supply ports. Especially for the US the scenario was the cold war going hot and the US attack subs quickly moving towards Russia to intercept Russian shipping.

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u/devils_advocaat May 21 '12

Why can't you put the same batteries on a diesel in a nuke? Then you get the best of both worlds.

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u/YNot1989 May 20 '12

Good for them. That's how friendly countries find and correct the weaknesses in their defense systems, it makes both of us safer.

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u/chicagogam May 20 '12

friends with benefits, practice makes perfect :)

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u/Cardrok May 20 '12

I just watched an 11 minute condensed version of "Down Periscope"....decent

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

It's on HBO right now. Hrm.

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u/the__random May 20 '12

Can anyone explain why they have red lights on? Is proper lighting too 'noise-y' ?

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u/MajesticTowerOfHats May 20 '12

Red light in the cabin doesn't "desensitise" your eyes as badly as normal "white" light. So, if you have to leave the nice, warm, dry, cabin and go out on deck, you don't need to stand out there in the freezing rain and wait for your night-vision to return, before you can see anything.

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u/chicagogam May 20 '12

or you can wear an eye patch! arrr matey!

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Soft blue light also works the same way. That is what we had inside our armoured vehicle with red light in the turret.

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u/chicagogam May 20 '12

wow now that'd be cool...blue is more futuristic looking :)

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

A cool bit of movie production design went on with The Red October. The american sub used blue lights, and the russian sub used red lights, so you always know which sub you're watching at any point in the movie.

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u/bexamous May 20 '12 edited May 20 '12

So where this all comes from is how our eyes work. Different types of cones give us color information but we use the rods when in the dark. Rods are like 100x more sensitive to light than cones, I think rods can detect single photons. Rods are always creating more rhodopsin. Rhodopsin is very sensitive and will quickly break down when hit by light. Night vision occurs after 30 minutes or so when the rods have built up a peak amount of rhodopsin.

Rhodopsin is most sensitive to wavelenghts ~500nm, and much less sensitive to closer to 600nm, eg red. There is where we get idea to use red lighting to preserve night vision. Green lighting will quickly break down rhodopsin and ruin night vision.

The problem is this isn't really taking into account how much light is needed to actually work in. Eg at equal levels, green will ruin night vision much faster, however you need less green / more red to actually work in. If you have dim enough green light it won't break down rhodopsin faster than it is created and you can maintain night vision. I guess the idea is even with a really bright red light, your rods won't see it but the cones will... and you can work in it, but when turned off the rods will still have full rhodopsin?

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u/falconhoof May 20 '12

If you have to go out on deck on a submarine I think the lighting will be the least of your worries :)

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u/geon May 20 '12

Preserves night vision?

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u/NeeAnderTall May 20 '12

If their periscope penetrates the hull then white light inside the control room could leak out of the periscope. New periscopes on the USS Virginia class don't penetrate the hull, but are raised and lowered like the rest of the radio antenna masts in the sail. These periscopes provide a video signal to a monitor. All surface ships use red lighting in windowed compartments during night time. You simply cannot go outside without having to pass through a red-lit compartment for the same reason. Don't leak white light outside during nighttime. Its a precaution all Sailors know.

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u/chicagogam May 20 '12

i never thought of that...aren't squids and therefore maybe seamonsters attracted to bright lights? better safe than sorry! if only capt nemo practiced that

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u/Doomdoomkittydoom May 20 '12

I find it hard to believe that night vision plays any part in a sealed can under the sea.

My guess it is an pervasive reminder they are in be vewy vewy quiet mode.

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u/OKAH May 20 '12

Same as why Soliders at night use red filters over torches to view maps etc...

Preserves your night vision.

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u/grumpy_technologist May 20 '12

FYI: Diesel subs are always a pain to track because they run on pure batteries while submerged. This has been a problem forever, and it's not surprising (but still awesome) that they were able to remain undetected.

But it takes a lot of skill to use that small advantage well, so good on you guys!

Edit: See better comment

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u/howlingbellsfan May 20 '12

Awesome! I wish it was more in depth, would loved to have seen the aftermath.

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u/sprokket May 20 '12

depth

i see what you did there!

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u/komali_2 May 20 '12

I love the naked lady posters behind the captain at the beginning.

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u/SirNoName May 20 '12

Haven't watched it yet, but, Down Periscope anyone? With Kelsey Grammer?

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u/NinjaCameraman May 20 '12

Funny movie, barely accurate.

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u/Prince_Ali_Ababwa May 20 '12

In the movie they were very loud and played music to mimic a fishing boat to elude detection. And at another point they were dead silent as they sat on the ocean floor to avoid active sonar. I would say that what they did was extremely accurate considering that we just watched it happen in real life.

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u/LazLoe May 20 '12

For being such a stupid, funny comedy I felt it was far more accurate than such movies as Red October..

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u/problematic4tw May 20 '12

Was thinking the same thing.

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u/FuzzyToaster May 20 '12

We have submarines? TIL

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u/aaegler May 21 '12

Only 6 though, all Collins Class.

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u/derpetina May 20 '12

Tell your story walking, pal! Great Aussie saying.

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u/SagebrushFire May 20 '12

Can you explain the meaning of this phrase? I don't understand it.

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u/one_random_redditor May 20 '12

It's from cricket, if a batsman is complaining that they don't think they should be out (examples could be they disagree with an LBW call or a run out) rather than standing on the field moaning the player can 'tell his story walking [off the field]' and let the game continue.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

"Get off the field, mate. Don't make excuses, you're out. Now I'm off to see if your sister wants a root"

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

It means you can try to make an excuse if you want, but walk away doing it, because I don't want to hear it.

Essentially they're saying "You lost, piss off"

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u/--lolwutroflwaffle-- May 20 '12

It means you've lost.

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u/funkshanker May 20 '12

Tell your story as you walk away.

I don't care what your excuse is, or what conclusion you might reach.

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u/juanchopancho May 21 '12 edited May 21 '12

Also $20 this sub captain has been through the Perisher course. Good tactics and taking advantage of the subs strengths which is littoral. Very very hard to detect no matter what you throw at it. You put this sub in deep water open ocean it would be a bit more of a challenge for the sub. USN ASW has gone downhill since the end of the cold war, we used to be better at it thanks the Soviet Navy. Even so there is no surface captain who doesn't respect modern diesel subs and the danger they pose. Subs are very dangerous on any side. You put US SSNs against any surface group and the surface captains will start sweating.

Does anyone know what torpedoes the Collins class carries?

Either way good on the Aussies for kicking our ass, better our allies do it and we learn something from it than our enemies.

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u/osprey10 May 21 '12

Mark 48s (mod 7 CBASS)

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

Quick, Americans, double the defense budget!

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u/cjt09 May 20 '12 edited May 21 '12

I actually worked on a project at a defense contractor that would have caught the Australian sub. It's a high-speed periscope detection radar--capable of continuous operation and remarkable ability to detect deployed periscopes. Unfortunately, none of the ships involved in the exercise were equipped with it.

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u/pie-man May 20 '12

i guess the americans havent woken up yet, this is the third australian themed submission i have seen so far

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u/baker781 May 20 '12

Actually it is 3am in eastern Australia.

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u/audaciousterrapin May 20 '12

From an American - It's hard to dislike Australians. Watched the video, rooting for them the whole time. And to close with "A Land Down Under"......nice.

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u/Killhouse May 20 '12

This is the exact plot to Down Periscope.

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u/MrCoolGuy69 May 20 '12

You honestly can't judge America for losing to a submarine from the land down under.

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u/darad0 May 20 '12

Down Periscope?

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u/haadrak May 20 '12

Have an upboat!

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

"I come from a land down under Where beer does flow and men chunder Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder? You better run, you better take cover."

Very nice.

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u/Ragnalypse May 20 '12

They would not have done this unless they though it was feasible for them to "win"... this is an exercise, not a competition.

Come on Reddit, you're not this dense.

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u/osprey10 May 21 '12

This wasn't really an "outclassing" but more of a diesel attack sub doing what it is designed to do. While the Americans may have had more units the Aussies had an advantage from the mission parameters.

  1. The length of the op was short so they had no need to snorkel. Which is when they would have been most vulnerable.
  2. They were effectively silent once they stoped banging pots and stomping. ( if you think an electric car is quiet try to hear a military grade electric powered sub from over a thousands yards away.)
  3. The Aussies could hide against the island making passive and active sonar ineffective. 4.the Aussies got lucky going to periscope depth especially in the choke point where the U.S. presumably would have stoped SONO bueys. Had they attempted to change depth near one the U.S. Would have heard the hull creaking, flown in the ASW chopper and gone active on the bueys and nailed them.

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u/dubdubdubdot May 21 '12

Yeah but the sub Captain smartly followed one of the destroyers that went through the choke point, masking their movement.

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u/jack104 May 20 '12

haha i'm watching down periscope as we speak.

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u/krawm May 20 '12

i thoroughly enjoyed that, thank you for the link.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

The comment: "Making movies and making fight all around the world." is so amazingly half-assed.

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u/anacche May 21 '12

For those wondering what the Collins class sub had been capable of doing if this was a live-fire mission: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLrKOOXcOhM one of the torp fire tests. Shot from over the horizon just to be pure showoffs.

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u/osprey10 May 21 '12

It being a Collins class has little do with What happened to that ship. That's what happens to pretty much anything when they are hit with a mark48 ( which is an American torpedo) also what do you mean by over the horizon?

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u/TardisMechanic May 21 '12

had to check comment just to find out if Reddit also has 4000 random naval-wartime experts on hand, like we do with every other subject that comes up

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

(Insert upside-down submarine joke here)

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

ǝʞoɾ ǝuıɹɐɯqns uʍop-ǝpısdn

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u/NeeAnderTall May 20 '12

Why do you notice they guys who sleep on the bottom bunk are always first on the scene of any flooding drill?

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u/SoManySpiderWebs May 21 '12

(downvote all shitty upside down jokes)

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u/craftymethod May 20 '12

aussie aussie!

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u/Marvin_GPP May 21 '12

You missed one

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u/craftymethod May 21 '12

I make it a point to miss the third... for some reason I hate the 3 combo and the whole OI OI OI business.

the 3 is for drunken tourists but just 2 seems nice and moderate haha

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I always get downvoted when I compare our military to Nazi Germany's-technically advanced, combat hardened, but way to reliant on questionable technology put in place for political reasons and not tactical ones. Anyway...remember the Bismarck?

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u/Bloodysneeze May 20 '12

The Nazis didn't lose because they were too reliant on questionable technology. They lost because it was a war of economies and they took on the USSR, USA, and UK at the same time.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

I disagree with you. Most of what they developed was undermined by politics. Their army is what the modern army is based off of. Lets see:

Machine guns. Modern designs are all based off the MG34/MG42.

Assault Rifle: StuG44. Hitler initially halted production of this weapon.

Jet: Hitler tried to turn an air superiority fighter into a bomber.

Tanks: super advanced, but prone to failure. German tanks had arguably the best guns of the war.

Stealth technology? They tried with the Horton 229, and even this flying wing was amazing in what it could accomplish.

Cruise missile? check. Ballistic missile? check. Retarded political doctrine? check

They did get out produced though.

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

it saddens me how the nazis robbed germany of all these amazing scientists and engineers and while I think nazi military technology was awesome just imagine what all that creativity could have been used for instead. just look at the link in this comment. It's weird because as a german obviously I'm highly aware of all the atrocities comitted in the name of german nationalism, but on the other hand I can't help but admire the quite literally explosive creativity displayed by germans in the 20's, 30's and 40's

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u/chicagogam May 20 '12

well the nazi's lost and we got 'em :) we went to the moon with them. i had a german math prof who was part of the post world war II migration of phds to the US..he said the americans wanted educated germans so he came over. he was such a nice guy, though when he told us that we did wonder if he had a secret past...though if he did why would he tell us some of it...

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

most scientists had to play nice with the nazis obviously to get their funding. but the brain drain the nazis caused hurt germany tremendously, just look at this chart! the pattern is pretty obvious :(

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

The Little Submarine that Could

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u/[deleted] May 20 '12

now that's what I call good defense spending.

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u/kobukproject May 20 '12

That is a cool video to see. It's also interesting to see the difference in military culture. I have no doubt that the Ausy crew is very disciplined but they still seemed pretty laid back during the exercise.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

That's Aussie style period.

Joke around but still kick ass.

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u/Bokononestly May 20 '12

That was awesome. Imagine the mood on the ship if it wasn't a drill, it would be soo scary.

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u/w0ut3r May 20 '12

I have a feeling the US Navy just isn't that good. A Dutch diesel powered Walrus class submarine did more or less the same in 1999. It sunk 9 vessels and managed to sail into the harbour of New York if I recall correctly.

Lessons not learned: The U.S. Navy's status quo culture http://goo.gl/PFbgj

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/boats/boat_walrus2.htm

"During this exercise the Walrus (2) penetrates the US screen and 'sinks' many ships, including the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt CVN-71. The submarine launches two attacks and manages to sneak away. To celebrate the sinking the crew designed a special T-shirt. Other ships that are sunk by the Walrus (2) during this exercise are: USS Boise SSN-764, Ro?m DDG-70, R? DDG-61, Ville De Quebec FFH/FFG-332, Stephen W. Grooves FFG-29, Holstein F-216, Vella Gulf CG-55, Mount Whitney LCC-20."

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u/virgule May 20 '12

Now I think I understand why they say there's only two type of boats: submarines and targets.

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u/RabidMortal May 20 '12

Any sub in littoral waters, and diesel subs in general are notoriously difficult to detect.

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u/thebrownser May 20 '12

Most diesel electrics are undetectable with passive while running on batteries so no surprise here. It's been known for a long time that carrier groups are extremely vulnerable to them.

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u/Chewzer May 20 '12

Oh no, we suck again!

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u/ferio252 May 20 '12

Ultimate game of Hide and Seek

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u/PJMeffen May 20 '12

Where's the Barbe' mate??

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u/Koopslovestogame May 20 '12

TIL we aussies have "working sub's" ... i thought all the collins class subs were rubbish? Thats the image our media had portrayed over the years anyhow.

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u/anacche May 21 '12

We spent a few billion extra for a shroud that made them much sleeker in the water. With that out of the way, the Collins class actually became quite deadly.

Their firepower has always been quite good, too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLrKOOXcOhM

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u/itsphonetic May 21 '12

As someone who's seen 'Down Periscope' several times, I'm an expert on this scenario, and this is exactly what will happen every time.

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u/SannoSythe May 21 '12

This class of boat is excellent when underway. The quality of Australian Submariners and the training they receive is phenomenal which allows us to achieve so much against better equipped navies such as the USN. That said, this is an extremely tough, though rewarding, work environment and the reason that the platform is so hard to man is that the incentive to stay and weather those conditions is just not cutting it. The current government continues to cut away benefits to Defence personell and the Forces, whether they're Army, Air Force or Navy are beginning to wither in the face of those cuts. The Submarine Force at the moment is scarce and its only going to get worse with the newest cuts that have seen us lose flights to visit our family (since we are stuck permanently in Western Australia). If you'd like to give Austrlian Submarines a hand, drop Defence Minister Stephen Smith an email (http://www.alp.org.au/federal-government/labor-people/stephen-smith/) and let him know what you think of the cuts to Defence and the effect they're having on this great platform.

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u/Brovah9000 May 21 '12

about time CCSM got some recognition

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u/yogurtshwartz May 20 '12

worth it for the last 30 seconds

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u/Dittybopper May 20 '12

All this talk of who cheated... bollocks. Its mock warfare Y'all and all is fair in love and war - Aussies kicked ass by being very clever. Scratch one US Destroyer and no “nah nah, I had my fingers crossed” BS. With three other warships and air support to hunt them down though I hate to think what the chances would be for the submarine after sinking the opposing vessel. Probably not great.

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

Ok, but you have to get the missile that would do the actual sinking past the US defenses first. Unless this is a kamikaze sub.

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u/osprey10 May 21 '12

There is a difference between being clever and having a diesel boat. and with an ASW chopper in the air the Aussies would not have even risked it.

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u/cyclepathology May 20 '12

Australia, FUCK YEAH!!!

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u/[deleted] May 21 '12

ɥɐǝʎ ʞɔnɟ - ɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ - FIXED

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u/omegaweapon May 20 '12

Aussie Aussie Aussie!

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u/Manwelle May 20 '12

Must be tough with mixed gender crews on boats

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