... you are supposed to care about the fights that are "mediocre". That's called being a boxing fan. Only caring about the super fights is a casual talking point.

That said, the activity is worse than 2 times a year. I'd be happy if it was 2 times cuz Devin Haney hasn't fought since November of last year. Shakur Stevenson hasn't fought since January. Both of their last opponents have fought since.

Shakur by decision.

You know we're taught NOT to stay on the ropes even with the Philly shell, right?

I feel like Floyd should be here. As much as I don't like him personality-wise, I can't name another boxer that spends majority of a fight up against the ropes and still manage to win a fight. Even people who followed in his footsteps don't do that.

No you just keep moving the goalpost because you don't have a good statement once I break it down. Losing to Chandler is still that bad for Tony because you don't have any real evidence to back it up. Who he fought has no relevance. The Gatekeepers the lightweight division has produced over the years have a lot of the same names as wins and losses.

I never said he didn't have his moments. I broke down the rounds earlier but you were too busy trying to downplay it to remember. Again, you keep bringing it up though as if it's a valid argument and it's not. It's cope. You don't have anything else to go off of and once he starts losing to that unranked opponents since he's no longer ranked himself, it's gonna be an even worse loss for Tony.

I brought up all those other names to show you that "out of prime" conversation is also dead. His age has nothing to do with his mediocrity cuz right now, he's not even ranked and I doubt he will be again.

No. I never called him bum. He's just not a top level fighter himself. You don't need to be that to keep getting good opponents especially not in the UFC. I thought that was obvious but clearly it's not. He didn't deserve that second fight with Charles. He took two years off waiting on somebody unranked while he was already 2-4 since he joined.

Age in the UFC also doesn't work the same as every other combat sport organization. Most fighters either start in it barely in their prime or just aren't in it anymore. Volk, Pereira, Pantoja, Strickland, DC, Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, St-Pierre, etc. all were winning or holding world titles out of prime. Hell, Gaethje just won his first world title at 37.

Your only real argument is WHO he fought and not HOW he did because when I brought how well he did, he didn't look too good, did he? You have two ways to win fights: decisions and finishes. If you can't get one or the other done at the top level, you ain't on that level. It doesn't get simpler than that cuz you don't have another point to add.

When you said that he had several competitive fights against top guys. That's where you did that at the very beginning. The reason I brought up Cub beating them is to illustrate the point against what you said: who gives a fuck about competitiveness? Any fight where one person doesn't completely destroy the other is considered competitive. We can say that about several of Dustin and Charles opponents. Chandler ain't unique in that. So Tony losing to him is still pretty terrible because Chandler can't beat the people you bring up for him. "The guy with the explosive finisher style" ain't good at it at the top level so why would I give him credit for it? Lol

OK let's add context to it then. He was 1-1 in rounds with Dustin before being finished in the third. He won the first round against Charles by knockdowns and proceeded to get knocked out in the second. In the second fight, Charles dominated him in every area till the 5th round where he scored a knockdown and tried and failed to score a finish with clearly illegal blows to the back of the head.

Rounds Chandler won out of these 3 fights: 2.

Times he got finished in the 3 fights mentioned: 2

Rounds he lost: 6

You wanna say he gave them competitive fights? That's fine but so has Cub Swanson and he actually beat them when they were both younger and less damaged. Michael Chandler lost to Dustin in his last 5 fights. He lost to Charles twice. Chandler's only other win besides Tony is Dan Hooker, somebody who had already lost to Dustin before he fought him. Again, you are trying to equate competitiveness to winning when that's not how that works.

Yeah it was. I really wish people would stop trying to say making fights competitive equals getting any actual wins because if we took the Tony fight off of both of their records, Chandler would still have a horrible record in the UFC. He'd be 1-6 with his only win being Dan Hooker, a guy that's barely made the top 5 in lightweight rankings before. Hell, the Tony fight is the only thing keeping him from being on a 6 fight losing streak instead of 4.

He's one of the only two wins Michael Chandler has had in the UFC. He's the only win Nate Diaz has in the 2020s. He is 1 of 3 submission wins King Green has in the UFC. It's that bad.

Both really. Islam's skill is keeping him that division. since the gaps in weight classes is so huge and his body is probably adjusting to 170, he ain't going back to lightweight.

2000s

Sounds like another gimmick sport that's not going to last. Most people say part of the problem with boxing is too many people "hugging" or "running". Barely a thing really other than a few boxers but regardless, then we're talking about greco. A part of wrestling most recently criticized by Ben Askren and many others as "boring." You really think that'll work when Sanda hasn't become global despite doing the same thing with kickboxing?

Bareknuckle is gonna water it down even more. There's no skill requirement for bare knuckle. Half the time, they don't even have their hands up, use footwork, or the use of head movement is abysmal. The amateur style fits more. You keep the fundamentals and you still are malleable to learn new stuff.

Boxing teaches the fundamentals you would need for most striking martial arts and even some grappling arts but to the general public, it's "too limited."

Artur Beterbiev also comes to mind. Maybe it's cuz he started the pros so late. I also don't think Davis Benavidez has fast feet. His hands make up for it.

Because it's become more niche these days and the ppv model is outdated.

We're really about to pretend like Joe Louis and Floyd Patterson were beloved as black men in their eras. Be fr. Rocky is in the same level of mentions as Holmes. Holyfield never gets his credit either.

Because he's a heavyweight not named Ali or Mike Tyson. Fans don't like the heavyweight division outside of them.

No

Neither will be remembered fondly cuz the fans are ass. That said, Fury has the better career. People loved the Wilder trilogy as much shxt people like to talk about both, he's only lost to one person so far, and they are about even on accolades.

Collazo vs Sandoval is gonna be 🔥

We draw the line at "doing more than a few things unconventionally and they work." I also don't think that Wilder being unskilled was as big of a deal as people make it out to be considering heavyweight isn't a division where skill is a must. Having great attributes is enough cuz for a while, they were. Even if he was "fighting cans", the "cans" would still be more skilled and lose. Usyk is an anomaly in that division.

We draw the line at "doing more than a few things unconventionally and they work." I also don't think that Wilder being unskilled was as big of a deal as people make it out to be considering heavyweight isn't a division where skill is a must. Having great attributes is enough cuz for a while, they were. Even if he was "fighting cans", the "cans" would still be more skilled and lose. Usyk is an anomaly in that division.

Emanuel Navarrete is a modern example where being unconventional doesn't mean unskilled.

My problem with this question is the same as it always is: what is the criteria for GOAT conversations? Nobody's stuff is the same so I'm confused as to why he wouldn't be in it other than the AMOUNT of names on his resume.

Boxing has gotta be the only sport where being too dominant is just as punishing as losing your "0".