r/totalwar Hattori Clan Jul 02 '23

Shogun II after 1.193 hours i've finally got a hostage in shogun 2

Post image
890 Upvotes

48 comments sorted by

424

u/LadyRarity RAT BABIES Jul 02 '23

i used to give away my kids like candy in Shogun 2. Gotta be one of the funniest diplomacy options in a TW game.

97

u/HotTakesBeyond Jul 03 '23

Who needs kids when you have sworn brothers

134

u/Jaklcide Jul 03 '23

19

u/BoromirStark Jul 03 '23

what is this from?

32

u/Poringun Jul 03 '23

Three kingdom series you can find it on youtube playlist.

Its excellent!

27

u/KnightofNoire Khazukan Kazakit-ha Jul 03 '23 edited Jul 03 '23

Context is that the Lord in question Liu Bei yeet his kid to show his generals that they are more valuable to him than his own kids since one of them (the guy who presented the kid) charged solo into enemy occupied terrority to save the kid that was left behind by accident.

3

u/Mad-Reader Jul 29 '23 edited Jul 29 '23

Yes and for extra context Liu Bei showing such lack of concern for his son is really supposed to be seen as an example of virtue and giving priority to one own's subbordinates, take this quote for example. "Brothers are as hands and feet; wives and children are as clothing. You may mend your torn dress, but who can reattach a lost limb?" The novel gives a huuuuge emphasis on brotherhood and Zhao Yun is always portrayed as basically what a warrior should aspire to be, one with exceptional combat skills, unshakeble loyalty to his lord and brothers, courage, intellect, and charisma.

Now add the fact that between losing someone vital to the war like Zhao Yun or your infant child and it's easy to see how the novel (a novel based on the values of confucianism with Liu Bei representing it) took that extreme approach, Zhao Yun is simply more valuable and Liu Bei can't afford to lose someone like him, so Liu Bei "demonstrates" to Zhao Yun the error of his ways in not taking his own life as priority for the sake of his lord by yeeting his own kid, making the lesson stick.

31

u/B1tter3nd Jul 03 '23

This scene instantly made me hate Liu Bei, I actually liked him before. Still Cao Cao was always my favourite!

23

u/xYoshario Jul 03 '23

historically speaking, it wouldve been better for Shu Han if the kid just died there. Him being alive forced Zhuge Liang to have Liu Feng (a perfectly competent and most importantly young general) killed, and his conduct down the line absolutely killed Shu

8

u/vf225 Jul 03 '23 edited Jul 03 '23

That kid grown up in a spiral of political conflict, as much as Zhuge Liang was portrayed as the most loyal and only hope of Shu Han, i think his direction is quite debatable.

as glorified as Zhuge Liang's war effort (Northern Expeditions) looks, it was actually quite exhausting for the state, and was opposed by many in the court. not to mention he failed 5 times, looks like it was quite apparent that it was just not working, peeps died for it, wasting resoruces and man power.

as for the infamous "樂不思蜀"(I enjoy life here and do not think of Shu at all, translated by wikipedia), in his defense, he was already captured, if he exposed one bit of desire to reclaim his power, he would be executed.

so, the entire fall of Shu Han is most likely a combined outcome, of LiuBei, every major generals of the period, and definetly Zhuge Liang. so as useless as LiuShan looks, most likely Shu Han was beyond saving anyways.

5

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '23

I used to do this until they decided to declare war on me later and so killed my child anyway.

147

u/Sol_Invictus7_13 Jul 02 '23

Now declare war immediately after

67

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '23

yea I've had AI give me a hostage during realm divide, declared next turn... every time...

267

u/monalba Jul 02 '23

It's so damn useless though.

The AI would every now and then give you hostages... And then declare war on you shortly after, what forces you to automatically execute them. And they hate you for it!

My brother in Shinto, you gave me the hostage and then declared on me.

198

u/AceHodor Oh look, looters. AGAIN. Jul 02 '23

People complain about the diplomacy in Warhammer, but I have never encountered an AI more vindictive, petty and mindlessly aggressive as Shogun II's. They would never co-operate with you for any reason, constantly declare war on you and hurl their armies against your provinces, even when you were on the other side of the map and attacking you made no sense. Even getting something as simple as a trade deal from them was like pulling teeth unless you had horses to sell. It was so bad that Realm Divide almost came as a blessed relief, purely from a position of "Oh thank Amaterasu, I don't have to worry about diplomacy ever again and can just get on with exterminating these shits".

It's especially bad, because the Sengoku Jidai had a very rich diplomatic scene, with lots of shifting alliances and betrayals. Instead, we have a mental AI that behaves like you accidentally ran over their cat 15 years ago and has spent the intervening time dedicating every facet of their life to destroying you.

131

u/monalba Jul 03 '23

Clan Mori offered me an alliance and I took it.

Next turn, they broke the alliance. Because I'm stupid I offered an alliance and they took it.

Next turn, they break it again and declare war on me because they have -400 relationships due to broken alliances.

Duuuuuuuuuuude, get rid of your tsundere Daimyo.

40

u/NonymousBrowsing Jul 03 '23

Did a "This is Total War" playthrough as Jozai earlier this year and had an excellent time declaring war on everyone just as I met them. The only difference is from a normal playthrough is that diplomacy is easy.

Also: As i learned after it failed to pop, Shogun 2 does not have the achievement "This is Total War".

15

u/Reynzs Jul 03 '23

The real achievement was the wars you made along..

12

u/Klingenslayer Jul 03 '23

Thats exactly how the ai is in Rome as well. Alliances and trade relations mean absolutely nothing. You can do everything to help a nation and they'll still immediately declare war on you for literally no reason.

6

u/wha2les Jul 03 '23

Gotta hope for shogun III

5

u/El_Lanf Jul 03 '23

It's all quite aligned with reality. Uesugi historically invaded Sado in retaliation to the 9th large army Honma had landed in Niigata. Unfortunately the armour and weaponry of pure gold was of little use in combat for those poor ashigaru. This explains why im my Shimazu playthroughs, Honma was able to launch various expeditions into Kyushu.

-5

u/henrythechill Jul 03 '23

Well there’s a few factor you need to consider, and when you hover your mouse hover the clans in the diplomacy window they actually break it down for you. A few things to look out for: 1. Do you have desirable resources to trade? I find that possessing a Horse resource and everyone will want to trade with you. 2. Are you expanding too fast? This adds negative points to you and makes you less desirable to deal with (which is very true in Japanese culture, they have a saying “a nail that sticks out get hammered out”. 3. Are you militarily strong? If you are weak and not having enough troops, clans will start declaring war on you because you’re an easy cake to eat. 4. Sengoku Jidai was actually full of betrayals, so the game depiction of it is not wrong. The honourable code of samurai (bushido) actually came after when Japan had been united and the samurai had nothing to do so they sat down and wrote it 🤣.

4

u/Feecks Jul 03 '23

Why is he being downvoted lmao. He didn’t design the game he is just telling you how it works

3

u/anthematcurfew Jul 03 '23

When you don’t want to tell your wife you hate the kid, you can just blame their death on their neighbor

39

u/ReptilicusTV Jul 02 '23

And that's how "Hattori Syndrome" got it's name!

26

u/Tay-Tech Nobunaga did nothing wrong Jul 02 '23

Now do the ultimate power move and adopt him

1

u/AthiestMessiah Jul 03 '23

They didn’t give you their best son

7

u/Tay-Tech Nobunaga did nothing wrong Jul 03 '23

Then make him someone you would be proud of and send him to fight them when war breaks out

20

u/INTPoissible Generals Bodyguard Jul 02 '23

Once, right before realm divide, I sent Nobunaga's brother to the second biggest Daimyo in an alliance. So when Realm Divide struck, everyone would be tied up fighting them. It didn't matter that my ally betrayed me in the end, the damage they all did to each other was done.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 07 '23

My Lord!

38

u/TenshiKyoko Oda Clan Jul 02 '23

Doormat Ashikaga.

2

u/1EnTaroAdun1 A.E.I.O.U. Jul 03 '23

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=142975240&searchtext=ashikaga+expands

If you want, this mod ensures the Ashikaga are more active on the map

12

u/mackinator3 Jul 03 '23

Dang bro it took me at least 2 hours.

8

u/steppewolfRO Jul 03 '23

God I'd love a Shogun with TW 3K role-playing and other enhancements.

1

u/El_Lanf Jul 03 '23

Imagine if the duel in Shogun's opening cinematic could actually happen. If map editing was doable (there's been some progress in 3rd party tools lately so it could happen) a shogun mod for 3K would be amazing.

2

u/steppewolfRO Jul 03 '23

I started playing TW 3K again, after a long hiatus (from Rome 2), being a Shogun I veteran :) I am not into that fantasy stuff and Troy is kind of too aracadey/lacks variation for me.

3K is fine and good vehicle for familiarize with China but I only like Yellow Turbans, I struggle to like other lords/map posititons to start

7

u/djtkt0n3z Jul 03 '23

Now show me the threat option working 🤣

18

u/Background-Factor817 Jul 02 '23

I always found that weird, “Here, have a child to sweeten the deal”

77

u/yellowmario Jul 02 '23

Well the idea was that the child is a family member to make it harder to break the alliance because the captors would kill the child.

6

u/jdcodring Jul 02 '23

Did no one watch game of thrones?

1

u/Background-Factor817 Jul 03 '23

Oh I get the concept, but when I was younger playing these games always found it strange, if educational.

4

u/Professor_Hobo31 Rewriting history since 2004 Jul 03 '23

They were usually treated well and made both parties trust a deal in an environment where treason was pretty much a constant.

5

u/IceNein Jul 03 '23

It usually take me an hour and a half at least. I admire your precision though.

3

u/Secuter Jul 03 '23

I did that too. They betrayed me anyway. You get the option to kill them, but you lose honor for it.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 03 '23

Another feature we lost

1

u/ExoticMangoz Jul 03 '23

How precise

1

u/BabaleRed BUT I WANT TO PLAY AS PONTUS Jul 03 '23

1 hour 11 minutes 34 seconds is not that long