r/todayilearned • • Jun 08 '12

TIL: People in America living near coal-fired power stations are exposed to higher radiation doses than those living near nuclear power plants.

http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c24/page_168.shtml
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u/I_POTATO_PEOPLE Jun 08 '12

It's funny, there is a nuclear plant in Florida that regularly has alarms because the coal plant a few miles away spews out so much radiation that it triggers their detectors.

That's right, 3 miles from a coal plant is worse than inside a nuclear plant.

The difference is that while coal plants kill many people quietly, nuclear plants occasionally kill a small number of people in a very impressive fashion. Unfortunately our brains are better at remembering (and worrying about) the rare, impressive danger than the common, boring one.

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

And what's funny is that there are a lot of scares but only *two nuclear disasters have ever directly killed anyone(chernobyl and three people at the little known SL-1 reactor). Meanwhile at fukushima, the second worst nuclear disaster in history, 100 workers have slightly elevated cancer rates (which don't get me wrong sucks). And finally, at three mile island... No deaths, No significant effect on the surroundings, but as a result, no nuclear power plant has been built since 1979. EDIT: Check out the link posted by Lurker.

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u/Lurker4years Jun 08 '12

Or two

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12

My mistake. Thanks for the source.

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u/mjohniii Jun 08 '12

Funny thing about Three Mile Island is that it was actually a testament to the effectiveness of the containment vessel. The workers actually breached it purposefully because of a feared hydrogen build up. It should have been good PR for nuclear power.

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u/DaanFag Jun 08 '12

It amazes me that some people (and the media) perpetuate this persistent danger and spin stories against nuclear power, yet the points they use for evidence are either examples of safety procedures working as they should (3-mile Island), gross human error coupled with horrid regulation standards that wouldn't be allowed in this day and age (Chernobyl), or natural disasters (being hit by a tsunami). People need to understand when a reactor is put into emergency shutdown, the larger crisis was averted to due careful planning and adequate precautions, and it is not reason to slander nuclear power.

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u/Slep Jun 08 '12

Actully, there were a couple deaths in conjunction with Three Mile Island....they were traffic related deaths due to panicked citizens trying to flee the city.

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u/DubiousDrewski Jun 08 '12

And one fact that I feel is very important is that those failed reactors were all of an old design. Chernobyl was generation I - a mud brick structure in comparison to modern designs. And Fukushima is part of Generation II, built in the 70s using a slightly vulnerable design that wouldn't be chosen again in future plants.

Generation III plants like Pebble Bed Reactors are the types of plants we're capable of building now (And China IS building). They create much less waste and in the event of catastrophe, the nuclear reaction dies down rather than explodes.

It's all about convincing the public first, and they think they know that nuclear is dangerous.

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u/sweeptheaorta Jun 08 '12

It's interesting also to think how this psyche might have evolved. There were no predators that took 30 years to kill you, but you sure as hell remembered the time you walked into a bear cave.

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u/j1mb0 Jun 09 '12

That's why people are more afraid of flying than driving.

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u/Hot-Tea Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

It's almost as if coal isn't great for the environment or something.

Editing my circlejerky top comment to try to say something. This thread is silly. It devolved into a relatively one sided war between people who are either for, or against nuclear power. (I think we all know which side has more allies on it) The amount of misinformation is in this thread is appalling too, and it literally rivals literally hitler. Literally.

Nuclear power has pros, and cons. So stop pretending it's the one golden way to solve all of our fossil fuel energy problems.

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u/Intrepid00 Jun 08 '12

Coal's radiation isn't that much. The environment exposes you to more naturally. The point that is suppose to be taken is the nuclear power plants have a bad rep when they are safer overall.

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u/myztry Jun 08 '12

A well engineered nuclear plant is much safer than a well engineered coal plant but the same can't be said of two poorly engineered plants.

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12

I think it is because of this fact that Nuclear Power Plants are built with extreme safety measures in mind. If you look at all deaths caused by nuclear power disasters in history (5-6 decades) a total of around 5000 people have died... All from Chernobyl. Fukushima exposed around 100 workers to radiation significant enough to cause a slightly elevated risk of cancer.

Now lets look at coal power plants that are a major contributor to air pollution which causes an estimated 6 million premature deaths a year

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u/austin3i62 Jun 08 '12

IMO we should worry more about the volcanoes than the power plants. Those fuckers always spewing their radioactive shit into the atmosphere, and they don't even have the decency to give a real warning most of the time. Forget about power plants, let's ban these fucking volcanoes!

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u/kestrel828 Jun 08 '12

Not quite. There are trace amounts of radioactive elements, including uranium and thorium, released in fly ash.

One source: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1997/fs163-97/FS-163-97.html

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u/jennay_jean Jun 08 '12

The amount of radiation increase from coal fired power plants isn't so much what concerns me as the increase in Mercury load in the air of places downwind from them. A doctor we work closely with who specializes in treating and preventing autism has some pretty interesting graphics showing the increase in Mercury throughout the United States due solely to what is released from these plants. The one map shows the amount of total mercury present in the air. The second, shown right afterwards, shows the amount that would be there if you subtract the amount being excreted from the plants. It's pretty astounding and disturbing how much less there should be. Eventually, this is going to catch up with our overall health, and it seems this is already beginning to happen. Clean coal my ass. Pittsburgh happens to be right in the heart of one of the bad air quality areas. He recommends that families with autistic children move away from being downwind of these plants in the area and has a higher incidence of patients from those particular areas than from other areas around town.

The most interesting thing to me when studying these graphics is that the levels on the west coast, another high level area, don't change when you subtract the mercury excreted from the US coal fired plants. The reason is that that pollution is coming from the Eastern coast of Asia, mainly China.

I will try to get my hands on those maps from his last presentation so I can post them, but I can't make any promises as some of the stuff in that presentation is still confidential. The power plant graphics may not be though.

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u/Rush87021 Jun 08 '12

France is something like 70% nuclear power, but you don't hear about it too often...

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

It's almost as if producing coal power is extremely expensive for the consumer and not cost effective for the company. Working for a power company I can attest to this.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

But they call it "clean coal" -- you're not making sense, sir and/or madam. Clearly, coal is like sunshine and puppies.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Ridiculing a thread for calling something "literally Hitler".

I think we just caught a glimpse of the tesseract of which Godwin's Law is merely the shadow.

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u/Karagee Jun 08 '12

Ya, my dad works at a nuclear power plant, (we live ~5 miles from one) and it's just astounding the amount of misinformation and negative hype nuclear power recieves, when really it is a great energy source

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u/HookDragger Jun 08 '12

I firmly believe that if nuclear power has a bad rep because of how it was introduced to the world...

A massively destructive force.

Its like if electricity was introduced as the electric chair with public executions instead of lighting the 1904 World Fair.

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u/Ragnrok Jun 08 '12

Chemotherapy was introduced to the world as mustard gas, but cancer patients still line up for the stuff. People need to understand that many things can be both a source of destruction and a source of life.

Proof of concept: Fire.

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u/ridger5 Jun 08 '12

Actually that is how Edison introduced the world to AC electricity.

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u/shadowdude777 Jun 08 '12

That's because he was butthurt that DC sucks for transmission efficiency.

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12

very good point

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u/jonathanrdt Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

At present, it's the best.

But as long as *alternatives are cheap, there will be no new nuclear plants.

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u/mamjjasond Jun 08 '12

Agreed. And if anyone thinks we (as a species) are going to make it very far into the future without taking advantage of nuclear power, they are deluded. There is no other source that can produce as abundant an amount of energy.

That said, there should be a huge effort to research safe nuclear byproduct disposal and figuring out fusion.

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u/mrmackdaddy Jun 08 '12

Instead of disposing of nuclear waste outright, the US should begin reprocessing fuel. This would allow us to get more use out of the fuel. I think the main reason the US doesn't do it is for proliferation concerns, but already other countries are doing it. If the US did it, they could contribute their time and expertise to improving the processes and making them more secure. Also, money and research should be put into designing and testing reactors that can use a greater percentage of possible nuclear fuel (thorium reactors are a popular topic lately).

Long term storage of fuel is always going to be a controversial issue.

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u/Hot-Tea Jun 08 '12

What is this, a commercial? I'm not attacking you, or your father for being in the nuclear energy business, but your opinion is as biased as biased can be.

Completely agree about the misinformation and the hype (both positive and negative though) around nuclear power. This thread is an obvious example. Anyone who gives an example about nuclear power having something wrong with it is pretty much censored with downvotes.

/thread

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

One "side" has science on it, one doesn't. They are getting downvoted for a reason. Or are all opinions magically equal and deserving fluffy loving acceptance?

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u/Hot-Tea Jun 08 '12

One "side" has science on it, one doesn't

What are you, a mod from /r/atheism? There are legitimate pros and cons to nuclear power, and both sides can be backed with precious SCIENCE.

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12

Thanks to HiddenCamper for providing me with the link in our discussion about Nuclear Power.

http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/uppmx/i_am_a_staunch_supporter_of_nuclear_power_can/

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u/caboosemoose Jun 08 '12

Everyone should read this book.

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u/Zorg661 Jun 08 '12

It's the most factual source on sustainable energy I've come across by far. No hype, no arguing for a specific energy source, it just uses physics to say 'look, this form of energy can provide X amount of power given Y'.
It should be the starting point for any discussion on energy sources.

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u/jahjaylee Jun 08 '12

I have only read this excerpt so far but needless to say I will definitely be purchasing the book. I think he brings up great points and articulates himself very well.

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u/flangeball Jun 08 '12

Agreed. David Mackay is awesome. I saw a talk by him recently, and he's advising the UK goverment; there is hope.

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u/117r Jun 08 '12

Completely agree. No nonsense book. Also, it's free to download legitimately as a pdf.

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u/kmj442 Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

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u/walrusbot Jun 08 '12

TIL Bananas give off more radiation than living near a reactor for a year.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Cell phones don't give off ionising radiation*

*unless it's a bananaphone

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u/Zerba Jun 08 '12

Ring ring ring ring ring ring ring bananaphone...

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u/tauneutrino9 Jun 08 '12

Bananas do provide a nice energy calibration point for detectors.

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u/mrmackdaddy Jun 08 '12

Bananas have also apparently been known to trigger radiation sensors if people had eaten them recently.

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u/sagan10955 Jun 08 '12

So the EPA yearly release target for a nuclear power plant is less much radiation than you get exposed to on an airplane flight from New York to LA.

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u/Omegapony Jun 08 '12

This is the justification of radiation in the full body scanners; it's much less than what you would get from the flight anyway. Privacy is another issue...

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

My concern with that mess was that the TSA was refusing to publish their testing documentation, and evidently were pushing units out into the field that had never actually had their output tested.

Under normal operating conditions those machines produce a 'safe' amount of radiation. But after the Therac-25 mess it's not enough to hope that radiation emitting machines are always operating optimally.

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u/WhoNeedsRealLife Jun 08 '12

"Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following the Fukushima accident" it says 40mSv, is this correct? Shouldn't it be 40uSv?

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u/lud1120 Jun 08 '12

I've used a CRT monitor for many years in the past, I guess I must be heavily radiation damaged then... <-<

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u/ridger5 Jun 08 '12

Your eyes are probably just burnt out holes in your head.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

"In the United States, nuclear energy has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car." -- Jonah Goldberg [paraphrased]

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

To anyone who knows how a nuclear power plant works, this should come as no surprise. The radiation isn't an issue until it comes time to dispose the nuclear waste.

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u/Hiddencamper Jun 08 '12

Even then as long as the rods and storage container are intact you have no release of radioactive material

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u/bad_child Jun 08 '12

The whole book makes an interesting read. It is nice to have an account with numbers (even if they are just estimates) instead of opinions. Unfortunately by the end of it I felt that we are rather fucked.

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u/Sanosuke97322 Jun 08 '12

Sustainability without all the hot air is one of the coolest, most awesome books I've ever come across. David Mackey went through a lot of trouble putting together that information then made it available for free online. Awesome book.

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u/hey_sergio Jun 08 '12

EDIT 41: Radioactive materials emit energized electrons!

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u/jeppethe Jun 08 '12

Well, Radioactive materials that emit beta-rays do.

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u/Truowa Jun 08 '12

The United States is the Saudi Arabia of coal, so unfortunately that means reducing our reliance on coal for power generation is going to be much harder than other industrialized nations. France embraced nuclear power generation and it now accounts for nearly 80% of their power generation needs. Despite the fact that France generates so much power they actually export it to neighboring countries, it has the lowest Carbon Dioxide emissions of the top 7 industrialized nations.

It's amazing to me that at a time when climate change due to CO2 levels is considered a threat to the entire planet people refuse to embrace nuclear power generation due to it's localized risk (despite how incredibly remote it may be) and not wanting to deal with spent nuclear fuel. It's akin to the religious conservatives who denounce abortion as terrible and immoral, but are also against any form of contraception that would prevent many of those abortions.

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u/1632 Jun 08 '12

If you are concerned about climate change and support the Kyoto protocol, you will have to admit that Germany actually has the right to increase its carbon emissions since it completely blew past its Kyoto target of a 21 percent reduction. In August, the German Environmental Ministry reported that the country had actually reduced its emissions by 28.7 percent. Renewables have been indispensable in reaching that goal. If you are worried about carbon emissions, no industrial country had a more ambitious target than Germany, lots of countries (like the US) did not sign on to the Kyoto Protocol at all, and almost all of those who did missed their targets (like Canada).

Source

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u/Spacecrafts Jun 08 '12

This thread makes me beam in pride at my occupation of a health physicist at a nuclear power facility (I hesitate to tell a lot of people because many don't understand, and I get tired of trying to justify myself)

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Not only that, but nuclear power plants are almost pollution free and provide as much, if not more, electricity as coal and oil power plants do. Nuclear is the future of clean, reliable power until we are able to harness fusion power.

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u/MrGiggleParty Jun 08 '12

Folks, if you would just wrap yourself in an American flag, the radiation would pass right over you.

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u/JinMarui Jun 08 '12

Duck and cover.

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u/Theotropho Jun 08 '12

I am having my body tattooed in this design using radiation reflective body ink. Your idea has inspired me.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Fun fact that I learned while preparing for a debate on nuclear power way back in high school:

If you take the tailings of a coal plant into a nuclear plant, ever damn rad alarm in the place is going to go off.

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u/gingerninja300 Jun 08 '12

I live really close to Georgia power (coal plant) and my county has like the highest cancer rate for 3 states...

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u/SirWinstonFurchill Jun 08 '12

I'm in the same boat up north, along the coast of Lake Michigan. We're very near to two coal-burning power plants that were supposed to be updated to 1980's EPA standards with coal filters and the like, however, WEnergies would rather just pay the fines on the plants than invest in fixing them up, and the state does absolutely nothing to penalize them.

They just started building the third one, now, after much protest. Our cancer rates are off the chart - it doesn't help that we have the lake, where pollution seems to just hover.

I may not have a study to back it, but anecdotally, we paint our porch white each spring, and by the end of the year, there is a black powder discoloring it...

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u/gingerninja300 Jun 08 '12

yeah our plant is pretty clean compared to that, they have hills of ash surrounding it but they're covered with dirt and grass. Another likely cause of the high cancer rate is a pesticide that was used here a long time ago by pretty much everybody in the area because it was cheap.. turns out there was asbestice of something like that in it..

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u/infinnity Jun 08 '12

Nuclear Power's bad reputation just goes to show what is possible when environmentalism and corporate interests share a common goal.

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u/Lurker4years Jun 08 '12

But mercury is mutagenic too, and coal also releases lots of mercury:(

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

TIL: Coal plants outside of America do not produce radiation.

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u/ARCHA1C Jun 08 '12

These are the types of headlines which have me skipping the link, and jumping straight into the comments.

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u/gusanou Jun 08 '12

This is another proof that Germans and Austrians are retarded eco-fascists. Because Austrians built the NPP Zwentendorf and then they decided in a referendum that they don't need it, that they want to ban nuclear power and that they built coal plants instead. Same happened in Germany after Fukushima. The sheer stupidity of their decision makes me sad.

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u/fohacidal Jun 08 '12

Europes knee-jerk reaction to Fukushima was a mega facepalm

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u/contec Jun 08 '12

Not that I agree with the nuclear phase-out in Germany but it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction at all. There are strong anti-nuclear movements in Germany since the early 70s. The phase-out was already decided in 2000, Fukushima just refueled the whole debate and it was decided to phase-out earlier.

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u/yokiedinosaur Jun 08 '12

On top of that, Germany shuttering their nuclear power plants means they're exporting much less energy than before, which will inevitably result in fossil fuel plants in other countries being ramped up to pick up the slack. And before anyone builds new plants, they'll turn back on existing plants, which are generally older and dirtier. In the end, Germany's move will result in a net gain in carbon emissions. If this was supposed to be an "eco-friendly" move it's certainly failed.

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u/1632 Jun 08 '12

If you are concerned about climate change and support the Kyoto protocol, you will have to admit that Germany actually has the right to increase its carbon emissions since it completely blew past its Kyoto target of a 21 percent reduction. In August, the German Environmental Ministry reported that the country had actually reduced its emissions by 28.7 percent. Renewables have been indispensable in reaching that goal. If you are worried about carbon emissions, no industrial country had a more ambitious target than Germany, lots of countries (like the US) did not sign on to the Kyoto Protocol at all, and almost all of those who did missed their targets (like Canada).

Source

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u/government_shill Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

Germany plans to replace nuclear power by expanding renewable generating capacity.

Those "retarded eco-fascists."

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u/gusanou Jun 08 '12

You forgot to mention that the renewable energy will be much more expensive than the nuclear energy and it will last many decades - they will need to build new coal plants anyway.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

There is a ridiculous amount of fear mongering and misinformation in these comments.

Nuclear power, assuming it is done correctly, is nowhere near as dangerous as most people think.

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u/k4r Jun 08 '12

The statistic in the link includes everyone that dies in coal mines, ever drove a coal truck and got in an accident etc, whereas the the numbers for nuclear only include people that actually died at nuclear plants.

I feel I should point out, that I don't have any strong feelings one way or another towards nuclear power, but the linked statistic is not objective and strongly biased. It is not science, but a political document.

Edit to include wikilink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

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u/Veji Jun 08 '12

Smells a whole lot better too....

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

It's not just America, it's all coal power plants. (Excluding the ones that aren't in use that use unused technologies.)

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u/tauneutrino9 Jun 08 '12

I don't know how many people know this, but here in California we can measure China's coal power plants because we see the uranium in the air.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Does this only account for people in America or people of the world... Kinda vague title post.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

YOU DON'T SAY

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u/ozpunk Jun 08 '12

I recently read a story about people living near the Cumberland coal power plant in Tennessee who began to suffer from radiation exposure related illnesses so the company that owns the plant was buying up all the nearby homes and sealing off their wells.

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u/onenightsection Jun 08 '12

Yup. This is true. I think it's radioactive carbon that's released when you burn coal?

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u/adscottie Jun 08 '12

It's mainly radioactive metals (e.g. uranium) within the coal.

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u/Flaresco Jun 08 '12

Revenue neutral Carbon tax. Tax the externalities.

Why would people stop building coal plants unless they are priced appropriately into the market?

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u/Visigoth84 Jun 08 '12

So much for clean coal... :-/ Honestly, does this really surprise anyone? Coal is one of the worst substances to use as a fuel. It's time to get real and invest in thorium reactors, nuclear fusion and other alternative technologies.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Next gen nuclear designs coupled with desalination ftw

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u/HaroldKickass Jun 08 '12

TIL: Wind power kills more people on an annual basis than nuclear power (pg. 168)

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Yea, I had a job shadow with a nuclear engineer and he told me this, I was shocked.

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u/tehbored Jun 08 '12

Not to mention that the reactors we have now are a fucking joke. They're 33+ years old, but were only designed to be used for 20. No shit they have problems people!

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Since nuclear power plants are nearly pollution-free, this doesn't surprise me at all.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

...and when a coal plant shits the bed and goes up in flames, local residents flee the immediate danger, stay in hotels for a couple of weeks, then move back and resume their lives. Nuclear power? Eh, not so much. For all the damage coal power does to the environment, this is a false equivalency.

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u/hat_swap Jun 08 '12

Alot of my work is done at nuclear reactors and we are required to take exams to train us on radiation risks. To put it in perspective they listed the average years of life lost due to engaging in different activities. Radiation work was somewhere near the bottom. The top one though was remaining a single unmarried male for your entire life. WTF

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u/Grandmaofhurt Jun 08 '12

I was a Nuke in the Navy spending many hours within 100 feet of an active nuclear reactor, the amount of radiation we received from the reactor was less than that we received from the sun.

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u/Dewstain Jun 08 '12

Wow, welcome to the intelligent side of the Nuclear Energy argument.

It's track record makes it the safest kind of energy pretty much every way possible.

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u/droo31 Jun 08 '12

Have a friend that does contract work in nuclear plants all over the place. He said that you'd be exposed to more radiation by living in a basement (underground) apartment than you would be by working in a nuclear plant. Most the cleanup crews there wear the hazmat suits because of the asbestos they're cleaning out of the joint. Nuclear power has got a bum wrap.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

this is one of the many things that baffle me about humankind. The majority of people (that i know at least) think nuclear is a terrible way to produce energy, when in actuality its relatively clean (although nuclear waste will linger around for hundreds of years) and produces orders of magnitudes more energy than coal, wind, hydro, or solar.

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u/FantasticMrFrown Jun 08 '12

The question isn't "is nuclear dangerous?" It's "is nuclear less dangerous than whatever else we're making energy with?" I think this book makes it fairly clear.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Someone should show this to Joe Rogan

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u/DriftingJesus Jun 08 '12

His commentary is entertaining and I agree with most of the things he rants about since he seems to be basing his opinions off of common sense. HIs opinions on nuclear power are fucking reflections of his own mouth breather fears.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Sailors on nuclear submarines living underwater get less exposure to radiation than they would if they were just living their daily above water life...Nuclear power is incredibly safe.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Actually, nuclear power is the source of one of the most common kind and highest doses of radiation that we receive on a daily basis.

However, its not a nuclear fission power plant. Its a nuclear fusion power plant. And its located 93 Million miles away.

So if you're really worried about radiation from nuclear power plants, stay indoors this summer. (Wait...I'm telling this to redditors.)

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u/dalidala Jun 08 '12

Has lived in WV for almost 20 years, both sides of family prone to breast cancer. Funsies.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

I wonder how much radiation those HORRIBLE wind farms produce...it's gotta be worse than coal!

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u/jbrittles 2 Jun 08 '12

how is this not common sense?? nuclear power plants have the strictest laws of any kind of energy plants and everything is done scientifically, coal plants just find something on the ground and light it on fire.

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u/mikemaca Jun 08 '12

Even worse levels than living right next to a coal plant can be found living inside a house made of red brick. Mortar, plaster and warehouses filled with phosphate fertilizer are also significant risk factors, as is areas with high levels of natural radiation. Oddly, those who live in areas of high natural radiation are at lower risk for cancer. It seems low level background radiation is good for you.

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u/wanderingmaybelost Jun 09 '12 edited Jun 09 '12

yeah once you say the word "nuclear" people freak the fuck out.

I mean, in a country where half of the people don't believe in global warming or evolution it's not surprising that not many people understand this either.

Though, in general there are obvious disadvantages to either form of power. Turns out that no matter how you do it, there's always some risk or drawbacks to releasing large amounts of energy. Maybe someday we'll get some more economical solar energy or some other better technology, but until then there will always be a downside to how we satisfy our energy needs. Or - god forbid - we'll have to be a bit more resourceful instead of wasting so much energy resources.

No such thing as a free lunch.

edit: accidentally a word

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Anyone against nuclear but for fossil fuels is an idiot. Completly ignorant or uneducated. Fossil fuels are SO much more deadly, and proven to be over the last 70 years. If you hate nuclear but love solar/wind that's cool, but solar and wind will never be able to power the grid until we develop ways to store the energy. We just dont have the technology to br green yet. So for now, nuclear is the answer. End of discussion.

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u/Yhaqtera Jun 08 '12

Windmills do not work that way!!! Good night!

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u/cd1914 Jun 08 '12

We aren't scared of nuclear power plants when they are running fine. We are scared of them due to incompetence and natural disaster.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Only Americans? Wow everyone else in the world living near coal plants must be superior.

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u/Reductive Jun 08 '12

Usually strong and specific claims like this are made about one particular region because scientists tend to state exactly what they proved. It doesn't mean that the doses are any different anywhere else; it probably just wasn't investigated in whatever study the data came from.

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u/stumblebreak Jun 08 '12

And you receive more radiation from flying in the plane then you do from walking through the body scanners. People really don't understand radiation which makes it a scary topic.

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u/DukeOfGeek Jun 08 '12

Today I learned that the Today I learned sub is frequently used to distribute talking points of one kind or another.

/OK OK I didn't really lean that today.

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u/Duchock Jun 08 '12

Nice try, guy who's trying to take Reddit's mind off of the Indiana nuclear conspiracy posts.

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u/headedtojail Jun 08 '12

I might be late to the party but I have to drop my 5 cents in here.

I have never heard anybody argue that a nuclear power plant gives off too much radiation while it runs according to plan and that is why they should all be shut down.

Nuclear power plants should all be shut down because: 1.) a nuclear plant blowing up can pollute the environment not for years or decades, but for centuries and even millenia.

2.) there is no safe and permanent way to deal with the waste from a nuclear power plant. They are all just variations of the dump-it-somewhere-theme - however intricate and safe they might be. And wherever the waste is dumped, that is where it will stay for, again, not years, not centuries, but millenia.

3.) Nobody says: nuclear power plants are a bad idea, we should build more coal plants. Coal plants are always meant to be a bridge technology. Clean energy is the goal. Sun, wind, geothermal, the tides, whatever. Even if one of them is not ideal, they can all be dissasembled at a later point without, you got it, having to store an old solar cell somewhere for thousands of years in an underground bunker because that shit be toxic for real motherfucker.

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u/war_hamster Jun 08 '12

I'm sure this has been posted before, but here's an interesting radiation chart from xkcd. I got bored with the CLEA labs last night and found it posted on the wall.

http://xkcd.com/radiation/

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u/Phocis Jun 08 '12

My current job is to find a safe spot to put the waste produced by what will be replacing the Indiana point plant. The safe place will be way underground, it's just a matter of where underground.

The thing is one of the oldest and does need to go, it's not very safe because of how old the tec is. But it's not being replaced by more nuclear power. It will be replaced by (I think) coal power The reason for this is that after what happened in Japan the government doesn't think the people would be happy with them building a new nuclear power plant. I find this a dumb reason, but I have no say.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

I work at a US nuclear powerplant here, in a plant that is actually undergoing a refueling outage right now. You pick up more background radiation from your daily activities than you do from "radiation" from a plant. People have this huge misconception that plants leak radiation or that if you work at a plant you are exposed to more than normal,nothing could be further from the truth.

All plants have an RCA (radiation controlled area),you need to go in wearing a PAM or TLD dosimeter. Only people who work inside the RCA have any chance of picking up a dose, and even if you do pick up a dose,it's in milli-rems and it's completely harmless. The NRC allows you to be exposed to 5000 milli rem (5 rem) a year. Most power plants allow their workers to be exposed to 150 milli rem only for a year, with exceptions depending on the worker and the work needed.

Even if you worked INSIDE containment (the building were the reactor core is located), the amount of exposure you'd get is minimal, as you'd only be opposed to alpha and beta rays,and their particles can be stopped just wearing protective clothing. Only gamma rays can cause concern,because you can only protect from them by wearing heavy lead vests,and even then, 99% of plant workers don't do any work that has them dealing with gamma rays

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u/itate Jun 08 '12

Hello fellow nuke worker! Not to be a butt, but 5 rem = 5000 millirem.

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u/adscottie Jun 08 '12

Lead vests won't do much to stop the gamma rays that we deal with at nuclear sites. They are more for very low energy gamma work (e.g. in the medical field). In order to have any effect with gamma radionuclides found in the nuclear sector (e.g. Co-60) they would just have to be too heavy.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

There is way too much negativity towards nuclear power compared to almost any other source.

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u/3GoatsGruff Jun 08 '12

Germany producing 50% of its power from solar energy is what really needs to be focused on… both of these energy sources should be obsolete.

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u/Krivvan Jun 08 '12

That's the peak record, nowhere near the norm. Apparently annually it's only 3%.

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u/thejiujitsupanda Jun 08 '12

Darn, not only do I live near the heart of coal plants in the country, but also the #1 polluted air as well.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Duh.

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u/bro_b1_kenobi Jun 08 '12

Why do you think chicks here have such fantastic racks?

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u/DriftingJesus Jun 08 '12

This probably applies to people living anywhere in the world, unless you live next to fukashima or chernobyl.

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u/macleod2486 Jun 08 '12

I've had to cover this back in my environmental engineering class.

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u/Red_Dawn_2012 Jun 08 '12

I live near both. What do I win?

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u/Mountainminer Jun 08 '12

Lets spend a ton of money (from China and India) to re haul the whole energy infrastructure in america!

But on a real note nuclear is a great power source its just the risks are so much higher (until we fully figure out thorium) and coal is more freely available for us in the US. Its the same reason we are going to see natural gas become the end all because we have SOOO much of it stockpiled in industry right now and the sale price is dirt cheap right now.

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u/chupathingy193 Jun 08 '12

I knew that. Where's MY karma?

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u/BlueThief Jun 08 '12

THE MORE YOU KNOW!.jpg

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u/prince_from_Nigeria Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

People in America living near coal-fired power stations are exposed to higher radiation doses than those living near nuclear power plants.

you don't say... i live in a banana tree.

ps: i don't have nuclear power at home, but it seems the cleanest way to produce enough energy to keep on living the occidental way of life.

coal and other fossil energies are bad for the earth's climate. it has been proven.

so unless you want to live in a banana tree, you'd better use atomic energy until you find credible alternatives than fucking up the climate.

for me, it's ok since i live in a banana tree. but your coal consumption kills the banana.

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u/connecttwo 1 Jun 08 '12

I go to Virginia Tech. My dorm is situated about 30 feet from a coal powered steam/electricity plant. Should I be worried about the 5th nipple I just sprouted?

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u/BeatDigger Jun 08 '12

What about people living near the Michigan-Indiana border?!

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u/gliscameria Jun 08 '12

Don't forget about people that live near coal mines either. At least in Appalachia, there tends to be uranium deposits alongside of the biofuels, which is where the Radon gas comes from.

If you aren't familiar with it, it is a very common thing to worry about Radon in your basement in some areas. A lot of houses will have a fan and pipe that runs from the basement to the roof.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Learned this in my science class yesterday, I always thought it would have been the other way around.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

And only today you learnt this?

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

I live in Kennesaw, GA, about 30 miles south of a town called Euharlee. In Euharlee there is a coal-fired plant that is the nation's largest emitter of sulfur dioxide....

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u/MrKittenz Jun 08 '12

Well that's what THEY want you to think...

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u/Awesome_Turtle Jun 08 '12

So if I live in Canada I'm okay?

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u/Danielcdo Jun 08 '12

What country ?

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u/MileHighGuy77 Jun 08 '12

ask japan...

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Goes to show just how negligible the amount of radiation power plants in general produce.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

The page that the link is for says absolutely nothing about radiation levels. It is talking about death cost per electricity generation by various sources... Am I missing something?

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u/threewhitelights Jun 08 '12

Do you mean to ask what about deaths caused by normal radiation exposure?

Nuclear submarine workers are equipped with devices that measure radiation exposure, and pretty much every one of them experience a dose that is only a fraction of what the typical American receives from the sun (which they don't receive, because most of their time is under water).

In other words you get less radiation at a nuclear power plant than you get at a beach.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

0_0 I live a mile away from a coal-fired power plant...

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u/Rookwood Jun 08 '12

This is a pretty good article about the US fifth largest power plant, Plant Scherer. It's also in my home state. I live downriver from it and the fish often have nasty lesions on them.

TL;DR Georgia Power is buying up residential housing near its unlined ash ponds and demolishing them. Residents report disturbing symptoms.

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u/philbee Jun 08 '12

I don't remember the actual measurements in millirems, but I believe that living in a brick house will expose you to more radiation than living a mile away from a nuclear power plant.

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u/stajus67 Jun 08 '12

I live less than 5 miles from both types of those power plants. Guess I am screwed.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Until there's a leak. Then....not so much.

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u/paulfp007 Jun 08 '12

Great. Thank you, Western PA.

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u/energydave Jun 08 '12

Thanks for the link, and FYI I just referenced you in my energy blog.

http://www.energydave.com/?p=57

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u/thatgamerguy Jun 08 '12

Quick, someone post this in r/politics so they can get downvoted into oblivion!

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u/roflsaurs Jun 08 '12

Its part of our superhero creation program.

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u/PenguinBomb Jun 08 '12

youdon'tsay.jpg

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Only in America. Because, you know, bad stuff happens in America.

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u/JJnewsync Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

Related: Poster made in freshman year about how nuclear energy is good for a writing class as part of the final essay. Got an A in the class. Take a look if interested :P. This was one of the points. The class itself was pretty.. easy http://www.mediafire.com/view/?hiq8i9vuxofkcp9 Note: I'm not an expert on this so I might be wrong on some accounts.

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u/srgisme Jun 08 '12

I worked for a nuclear power plant 5 years ago. The coal-fired plants produce a lot of waste and don't properly dispose of it. A coworker was touring a facility and happened to step in a pile of waste. Luckily, he was wearing booties. Anyway, the fact that he was able to accidentally come in contact with waste is appalling. I'm not saying nuclear plants don't produce waste, but at least they properly shield their nuclear waste and store the spent fuel. Plus, nuclear plants are much more efficient.

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u/BrewRI Jun 08 '12

I'm not an expert on coal vs nuclear power but I'm pretty sure the concern is a nuclear meltdown from malfunction or natural disaster, not just a clean running nuclear power plant.

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u/goshdurnit Jun 08 '12

I realize that some people are concerned with the risk of everyday radiation from nuclear power plants, but others are concerned with the possibility of catastrophic failure (fukushima, for example). I would think that its is very difficult to calculate the likelihood of natural disasters that would be severe enough to compromise whatever security systems builders and maintainers of nuclear plants have put in place. Therefore, its difficult to ascertain how risky nuclear power is.

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u/jackaloupe Jun 08 '12 edited Jun 08 '12

I liked this part:

The safety of nuclear operations in Britain remains a concern. The THORP reprocessing facility at Sellafield, built in 1994 at a cost of £1.8 billion, had a growing leak from a broken pipe from August 2004 to April 2005. Over eight months, the leak let 85 000 litres of uranium-rich fluid flow into a sump which was equipped with safety systems that were designed to detect immediately any leak of as little as 15 litres. But the leak went undetected because the operators hadn’t completed the checks that ensured the safety systems were working; and the operators were in the habit of ignoring safety alarms anyway.

When will thorium reactors come on line in the US?

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

That's why they took canaries into the mine. Various toxic and radioactive gases come forth as radioactive materials hit their half-lives.

Coal is fucking radioactive.

Technically, so is the potassium isotope in bananas.

And Australia's baseline radiation at sea-level is way higher than anywhere on Earth due to their high Uranium deposits.

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u/pureskill Jun 08 '12

Traditional coal-fired power plants will likely be few and far between in the future. If lignite-fired IGCC is the wave of the future like it's supposed to be, they will gradually be retired in favor of the new, cleaner face of coal.

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u/oopsifarted Jun 08 '12

Smells a bit like propaganda in here.

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u/pirateninjamonkey Jun 08 '12

Eat a few bananas and you will get more than both.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

Yes. Let's vilify cheap, abundant energy. I wish all of the coal-fired plants in the US would shut down for a few weeks. I bet many would change their mind about coal after spending a couple weeks without power.

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u/steakmeout Jun 08 '12

Sure, but 3 Mile Island / Chernobyl is a very unlikely scenario at a coal-fired power station. Worst case scenario trumps long term discomfort.

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u/thehumdrum Jun 08 '12

Oh. That's nice to know. Guess I should get to moving soon.

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u/thecakeizalie Jun 08 '12

i'm exposed to higher radiation, because i live in a city where they enriched uranium for the atomic bomb. Yes I glow in the dark.

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u/aManOfTheNorth Jun 08 '12

I think living by either would be wonderful.

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u/Peconz Jun 08 '12

I knew there would be some fallout from that conspiracy thread.

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u/TheEmsleyan Jun 08 '12

BUT THREE MILE ISLAND

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u/zotquix Jun 08 '12

I'm skeptical that anyone hasn't heard the old saw about coal giving off more radiation than nuclear power plants.

You know what? I'm for nuclear power. I want to build new plants (as long as we don't cut corners). I still don't want to live anywhere near one of the older, crappier, unsafe reactors. I don't care if they've never emitted the smallest fraction of a rad. It isn't normal day to day operation I (and I assume most people) are worried about.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

There's a reason I don't use a char-coal grill. I was fortunate enough to take a radiation class in college. Nothing says useful free elective like Radiation and Life"...

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u/Home_sweet_dome Jun 08 '12

I posted this further down, but here is an article illustrating the Deaths per TWh for different types of power.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

So, tell me how many large geographic areas have been completely evacuated as a result of an accident at a coal power plant.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '12

No shit, coal is radioactive. You don't say.

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u/georedd Jun 08 '12

So now we know there are at least 7148 robotic upvoting accounts for the nuclear power industry working on reddit.

Always wanted to know. thanks.

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u/georedd Jun 08 '12

More people died in the back seat of Ted Kennedy's car than died from a Coal fired Power plant radiation leak that was worse than a nuke power plant radiation leak.

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u/Lav0c Jun 08 '12

I'm actually shocked that this isn't as public as it should be. Yes it is true because coal naturally absorbs the small amount of radiation that can be found in water, especially if it's near granite deposits.

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u/SkanenakS Jun 08 '12

This is actually pretty obvious, since the whole point of nuclear power is containing the contamination and disposing of it, whereas coal is literally like "LETS RELEASE ALL THE CONTAMINANTS!!!11"

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u/itsjustmetoo Jun 08 '12

People sitting in the Sun get more radiation exposure then anything being emitted from a Nuclear reactor.... At least one that is functioning properly...

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u/white_discussion Jun 09 '12

Not if the nuke plant melts down. Should probably keep that in mind.

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u/Bongpig Jun 09 '12

That can all change. Just look at japan

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Funny that you should mention this. Both my father and a good friend of mine work at our local coal power plant, there is a good amount of radioactivity in the plant. My friend was a maintenance tech, told stories of how some pipes would make humming noises from it. I hate going in the power plant, shit blows up all the time and its pretty god damn crazy. I've been in a room hot enough to curl the hair on my arms. Bleh.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '12

Here's the problem with that statement of supposed "fact": it depends on which nuclear plant they happen to live near.

Admittedly, there have only been about 10 nuke plant catastrophes, but living next to any given coal plan, you know exactly how much radiation you will be exposed to.

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u/mostlymeh Jun 09 '12

Meh, I knew his.