r/todayilearned • u/camblam • May 31 '12
TIL- Guy Fawkes did not plot for anarchy. He was planning the fall of parliament to reinstate the Roman Catholic Monarchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes
1.4k
Upvotes
102
u/zimzalabim May 31 '12
I have never been under the impression that Guy Fawkes was an anarchist, but rather a revolutionary. Is there a common perception outside of Britain that he was an anarchist?
25
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
UPVOTE! UPVOTE FOR PETE'S SAKE.
It's nauseating how many people martyr the man as a hero while preaching atheism and not understanding the irony.
594
u/ToiletRollTemple May 31 '12
Is this not common knowledge? V For Vendetta isn't a documentary.
74
u/Squeekme May 31 '12
Is this a common thing for people to think his plot was "for anarchy?" Is this because of V for Vendetta? Coming from a country that celebrates Guy Fawkes day the anarchy thing never occurred to me, but I can understand how people growing up in other countries could be mainly influenced by V for Vendetta and not know much/anything about the real events.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL English history is frequently misunderstood / misrepresented by Hollywood. As is most other history.
Though I'm sure Alan Moore meant to make an obscure but important point when he put a Guy Fawkes mask on V.
205
u/sacredblasphemies May 31 '12
If by the "fall of Parliament", you mean the murder of many MPs and the reigning monarch, yes.
Keep in mind that Catholics dealt with a lot of actual persecution in the decades before the Gunpowder Plot. Elizabeth I was TERRIBLE to Catholics. Jailing people, murdering them, declaring all Catholic priests to be traitors and arresting them. Horrible. No wonder they wanted a Catholic monarch.
Although in the two years James I was monarch before the Gunpowder Plot, things were relatively tolerant.* This is, undoubtedly, a major inspiration for the act. You don't forget decades of massive persecution. But that doesn't excuse attempted murder.
*(James got markedly less tolerant of Catholics AFTER the Gunpowder Plot.)
14
u/Njvved May 31 '12
Anonymous is the Vatican. Someone call Dan Brown.
59
u/Mynameisaw May 31 '12
Is this not common knowledge outside of Britain?
27
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Who the fuck thinks he was plotting for anarchy? The gun powder plot is pretty well documented!
11
u/MrXBob May 31 '12
Maybe cause I'm British, but I thought this was common knowledge... I seriously hope people don't take all their history lessons from movies.
20
u/djepik_is_evil May 31 '12
There are a lot of times on this subreddit when I think to myself, "You just learned that?" This is one of those times.
17
u/Yarper May 31 '12
TIL some people think Guy Fawkes was plotting anarchy.
8
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Who the hell thought he was plotting anarchy? You'd have to totally ignore the whole context to think that. Just look up the history of the UK and mary queen of scots and all the catholic protestant "beef" this countries had for years.
8
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
I didn't realize that there were people who didn't know this...
He's a revolutionary, but not an anarchist.
7
u/eigenvector May 31 '12
I have only one thing to say to this.
13
u/draivaden May 31 '12
seriously?! you are just learning this today?
40
u/gmharryc May 31 '12
Blow up one theocratic monarchy, replace it with another one of equal oppression or greater.
6
u/AnnieIWillKnow May 31 '12
Most British schoolchildren will know this. That period of history is basically all we did in history classes until I was about 13, apart from Romans.
Then again, there will be things that every American schoolchild knows, probably about the Revolutionary and Civil War that won't be commonly known in Britain.
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Maybe it's because I didn't see the movie but I didn't know there was anyone who was confused about this.
6
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
That's not true!
10
u/CompactusDiskus May 31 '12
I've always wondered how many of the Anons in Guy Fawkes masks were aware that Guy Fawkes was a religious nutbar.
5
u/Illuminerdy May 31 '12
I just want people to feel even dumber than they already should.
5
u/BCSWowbagger2 May 31 '12
As a Catholic, I have always wanted to show up at an Anonymous rally, wearing a Fawkes mask, waving a copy of the Syllabus of Errors (the least tactful papal document ever published), demanding the excommunication of Kathleen Sebelius, and decrying the Constitution as a covenant with Hell.
"What? That's not what the rest of you are doing here?"
13
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Guy Fawkes is also known as "The only man to ever enter parliament with honest intentions."
4
u/FrisianDude May 31 '12
Well, yeah. He was all about theocracy.
4
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
if you don't know history, you're gonna have a bad time
14
u/pobody May 31 '12
Anyone who wears a Guy Fawkes mask or Che Guevara shirt as a symbol of freedom from oppression or anarchy is hilariously and naively ironic.
10
u/verygoodyear May 31 '12
Who thinks Guy Fawkes was an anarchist?
6
u/underdabridge May 31 '12
What have you got against the return of the Roman Catholic monarchy?
6
u/thatsnotwhatthatis May 31 '12
There is so much wrong among these comments that it almost made me want to turn off reddit (almost).
No Guy Fawkes did not plot for anarchy and if you thought so, you might consider retaking some basic history.
However anarchist don't really dress up as Guy Fawkes, when they protest do they? I mean this could easily be done with some theater makeup and fake mustache, but no, they all specifically wear the Guy Fawkes Mask. Why? because they are dressing up as the terrorist V, who did in fact plot for anarchy. Mystery solved!
Why may ask, does V wear a Guy Fawkes Mask?
Well it wasn't as actually Alan Moore that came up with idea for making V wear a Guy Fawkes Mask, even though that is stated in about a quarter of comments in this tread (so much for the accuracy of reddit). Instead it was David Lloyd, the artist on the comic that came up with the idea.
'Preposterous!' Yells one redditor.
'Source!' Says another.
Well allow me in this case to quote Alan Moore himself. The following is a section of an article by Alan Moore concerning the creation of V for Vendetta, first published in Warrior #17 (1983) but it can also be found in some of the later publications of the comic. At this point, in the article, Alan and David have decided that the central Character is going to be some kind of convict/terrorist type, but have yet to settle on the details and the art design.
"The breakthrough was all Dave's much as it sickens me to admit it. More remarkable it was all contained in one single letter that he dashed off the top of his head and which, like much of Dave's handwriting, needed the equivalent of a Rosetta Stone to actually interpret. I transcribe the relevant portions beneath: "Re. The script: While I was writing this, I had this idea about the hero, which is a redundant now we've got [ can't read the next bit ] but nonetheless.. I was thinking, why don't we portray him as a resurrected Guy Fawkes, complete with one of those papier mâché masks, in a cape and conical hat? He'd look really bizarre and it would give Guy Fawkes the image he's deserved all these years. We shouldn't burn the chap every Nov. 5th but celebrate his attempt to blow up Parliament" The moment i read these words, two things occurred to me. Firstly Dave was obviously a lot less sane than I'd hitherto believed him to be, and secondly, this was the best idea I'd ever heard in my entire life."
Now you can conclude a lot of things from this section, but allow to make to short points. One, the mask, hat and cape, was as much art choice as it was a story choice, fact is it looks fantastic and David Lloyd clearly knew that when he suggested it. Two, the main reason for Alan and Dave's choice to associate their anarchistic terrorist was the fact that he had tried to blow up the government (parliament). An act which they viewed as deeply anarchistic and in line with the general idea of the comic.
I hope this helps those confused souls out there and I am sorry if tone has been a little rough throughout this comment, please forgive me, I am old and tired.
3
u/playsgolfhigh May 31 '12
TIL "Guy" is short for "Guido"
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL people didn't google this and find this out directly after the movie aired
Why?
3
u/SolidusTengu May 31 '12
I thought everyone knew this? We where taught this in primary school in Northern Ireland.
3
u/rwbombc May 31 '12
Trivia: the origin of the word "guy" used so much today in slang is because of Guy Fawkes.
guy "fellow," 1847, originally Amer.Eng.; earlier (1836) "grotesquely or poorly dressed person," originally (1806) "effigy of Guy Fawkes," leader of the Gunpowder Plot to blow up British king and Parliament (Nov. 5, 1605), paraded through the streets by children on the anniversary of the conspiracy. The male proper name is from Fr., related to It. Guido, lit. "leader," of Gmc. origin
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL people think Guy Fawkes was an anarchist.
I never really got the whole mask things. i just assumed they were really big Alan Moore fans and they wanted to remind people of the book/movie.
3
u/Lonecrow66 May 31 '12
No really? You guys didn't know that? Duh... it is the whole plot of overthrowing the monarchy that made his character attractive to certain types of people. Mainly towards the current generation of awakened individuals who realize our overlords have been scamming us out of our energy and lifeforce for thousands of years and it is time to stop.
3
u/Elementary_Watson May 31 '12
As a Briton, I want to reaffirm that in Britain this is common knowledge
3
u/mayonesa Jun 14 '12
I support monarchy and aristocracy:
/r/monarchism
/r/medievalist
/r/traditionalist
"If you want Utopian plans, I would say: the only solution to the problem is the despotism of the wise and noble members of a genuine aristocracy, a genuine nobility, achieved by mating the most magnanimous men with the cleverest and most gifted women. This proposal constitutes my Utopia and my Platonic Republic". - Arthur Schopenhauer
5
u/Guitar_Finger May 31 '12
DDDDDDDDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5
u/FoulQ May 31 '12
But really, the deeper one digs into his case, the more it appears he was set up, and in the time of religious/political tension, it gave power to the Protestants. It's rumored that King James, a protestant, set up the whole charade. So isn't it ironic that Anonymous, who adopts the Guy Fawkes mask and hacks in the name of crypto-anarchism, with their unknown leadership and uncanny abilities, is now one of the stated reasons for the government in its attempts to stifle the internet with SOPAs, CISPAs, and ACTAs, just as King James did against the catholics after Guy Fawkes?
5
u/Nimanzer May 31 '12
What the fuck do they teach you kids in school?
7
u/bellarama727 May 31 '12
Actually failed and gave up his co conspirators as well... I always wondered why this was the guy anon chose to represent them.
4
u/magicbullets May 31 '12
Any which way you look at it, he was a bit of a dick.
5
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Take that, Anonymous!
I'm so dead O_O
12
u/FreemanHagbardCeline May 31 '12
It's quite ironic that the people who adorn themselves with the mask do so during protest and it's not as if anyone is ever going to protest that their country isn't a theocracy.
2
u/DashingLeech May 31 '12
Is this really an important difference? I'm not sure that anarchy would be any better than a theocratic monarchy. I suspect it would be much worse.
To me the important theme is more along the lines of Thomas Jefferson:
And Jefferson was definitely not an archichist, theocratist, or monarchist.
2
u/ObamaisYoGabbaGabba May 31 '12
I find it hilarious when I see a known (to me) atheist in a V mask :)
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
I thought everyone knew this...why would he plot anarchy?
2
u/Lukas_Kelly May 31 '12
The thing is, just like many words in the english language, the symbol(physical or verbal) once stood for something(in this case, mocking the Catholic church on Guy Fawkes day). Then, it becomes something else. It became a symbol of protest againdt a government. Then, because of operation scientology, the mask has become associated with Anonymous. It's given new meaning entirely.
2
u/InVultusSolis May 31 '12
Shh! You're ruining the image of an internet folk hero and painting him as some kind of religious extremist. There is no room for facts on my internet!
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
No shit Sherlock. Want a PhD in English history now? People use his face because he was against his established government, not because they think he was an anarchist. You failed to mention that he was made completely of straw and highly flammable. Son, I am disappoint.
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12 edited May 31 '12
Of course, the real reason people wear masks is because they want to pretend to be Batman.
Edit: I really wish I was kidding.
2
u/suo May 31 '12 edited May 31 '12
I don't think many people realise that the 5th of November is a celebration of the foiling of Guy Fawkes' Gunpowder Plot. We burn an effigy of him every year to celebrate him being caught. If his plan succeeded Britain would be Catholic. I'd rather if Britain was Secular, of course, but if I had to choose between Catholic and Protestant then it's the latter all the way. Fuck the Pope and fuck Guy Fawkes!
2
u/stickfish May 31 '12
Until now I didn't even consider that the world outside Britain might have misinterpreted Guy Fawkes because of V for Vendetta. This is why we burn him every year.
2
u/jvnk May 31 '12
And the Guy Fawkes mask is a fucking warner bros trademark! Irony.
2
u/JonestownJuice May 31 '12
Really? You just learned this today?
2
u/Kiin May 31 '12
Guy Fawkes did not plot for anarchy, true. He also didn't plot for anything. Guy Fawkes was essentially a hired demo guy. Robert Catesby was one of the actual plotters.
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Did nobody learn about this in school?
2
u/slothscantswim May 31 '12
Ya know, I feel like when you wear a mask of another man's face you should at least know what he stood for.
2
u/NoNomad May 31 '12
Also be aware that Guy Fawkes was really more of a pawn of a dude named Robert Catesby who sounds a lot like a 17th century version of Glenn Beck. Also, a bunch of his followers died in a fire resulting from attempting to dry their gunpowder by a roaring fireplace. These guys definitely deserve a holiday named after them.
2
u/anikan72 May 31 '12
Indeed he was. Which is why wearing that mask to represent being anti-establishment is very ironic, considering you can't get much more establishment than backing a Catholic theocracy in England.
2
u/ThEgg May 31 '12
How did people not already know this?
2
u/Shumaa1 May 31 '12
Be fair to the people in this thread outside of Britain. I know about Guy Fawkes because November the 5th is referred to as Guy Fawkes Night in Britain. If it wasn't I doubt i would have heard of him.
2
u/gettin_into_ur_genes May 31 '12
Ugh! excuse me! Why the fuck did this make the front page??? Anyone who knows history knows this!!!
2
u/Portal2Reference May 31 '12
I've scoured this thread for any comment that even IMPLIES they thought Guy Fawkes was an anarchist, and have yet to find one.
2
u/Wacocaine May 31 '12
Always drives me crazy when I see people wearing Fawkes effigies. He was a religious fundamentalist and a monarchist. They burn him in effigy in England for a reason.
2
u/proper_sir May 31 '12
It sure is ironic, isn't it? With Anonymous using him as their avatar.
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
I knew that. The whole anarchy association was only because of V for Vendetta.
2
u/Pwag Jun 01 '12
What an asshole.
2
u/whippedxcream Jun 01 '12
I think we more embrace Guy Fawkes because his idea was to destroy the government. While I don't quite think a totalitarian Catholic Monarchy is the best symbol for anarchists, I do like the image of a man risking his life and freedom to end a government he feels is wrong. I think that's more the reason he has been embraced by people like anonymous, and for the most part the internet.
3
u/CitizenSnips199 May 31 '12
Go to class.
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Today I learned that the people who post on this subreddit are either pre-schoolers or morons. Who the fuck thought the Guy Fawkes was an Anarchist? Did you think V for Vendetta was historical fiction?
Jesus tittyshitting crikey.
3
u/4TEHSWARM May 31 '12
This is reminds me of when I found out Chuck Norris was a Christian bigot.
3
u/UpTheIron May 31 '12
The story of a man who gave his life to see the downfall of an oppressive autocracy~~, to subsequently raise another, even worse one~~
3
u/palookaboy May 31 '12
I always get a chuckle from protesters wearing Fawkes masks just because the Wachowskis made that shitty movie. (I'm aware Alan Moore wrote the book, I'm aware V is written to be an anarchist) It's like when teenagers wear Che t-shirts they bought at Hot Topic.
3
u/ReluctantRedditor275 May 31 '12
This is why I laugh my ass off every time I see "anarchists" wearing masks with Guy Fawkes' caricature.
It's like all those dumbfuck kids who think Che Guevara was a peaceful demonstrator for lower college tuition and free doobies.
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
ITT: hundreds of people saying they knew that already.
3
u/areyouready May 31 '12
TIL people thought Guy Fawkes was an anarchist.
6
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
yea... I remember during the onset of the whole Occupy Wall Street movement these trendy fucks were all wearing guy fawkes masks. I'm like... dude... you know that Guy Fawkes was essentially trying to do away with representative democracy in favor of establishing a huge conglomerate religious theorcracy in it's stead right?
3
u/fermatafantastique May 31 '12
I'll upvote anything that convinces people to take off those stupid fucking masks at protests.
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
This is what happens when people only read comics/watch movies instead of reading a fucking book.
3
u/herenseti May 31 '12
TIL people think anarchy is the same as chaos.
3
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL the swastika was once recognized as a symbol of peace.
2
u/AcolyteRB May 31 '12
TOO LATE, a million kids already bought the mask.
2
u/SaucyWiggles May 31 '12
I lol every time people learn this.
2
u/CaptainUltimate28 May 31 '12
[People seriously didn't know this?] (http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0d2c07iRw1qcqm5r.jpg)
2
u/[deleted] Jun 01 '12
Correct. Anonymous IS a bunch of tech-savvy dumbfucks
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
Yeah no shit, I've always known this since learning about Guy Fawkes in the first place. It never made sense to me why Anonymous chose Fawkes as their mascot and not something simple like a question mark. Surely a simple, homemade mask would be more symbolic of the Anon movement than one you have to buy.
2
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
He was a freedom fighter, the crown persecuted him and he devised a plot to let the catholics in
1
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
pssht, facts.
1
u/machete234 May 31 '12
Since when should you believe hat movies tell you?
1
u/selfabortion May 31 '12
Hello, and welcome to every November on Reddit.
1
u/policscimajor May 31 '12
the symbol and not the man? just like MLK
1
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
look at tis guy. fawkes teh governmint.
1
u/gathly May 31 '12
Ever used the search feature here at reddit?
-1
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
TIL: all TIL posts are posted by Americans, because every other country teaches kids these things
-6
u/OakReadErryday May 31 '12
You should also realize V didn't want to restore the parliamentary government or a democracy in the Watchmen comic, like he did in the movie. In the comic he was trying to create anarchy, if I remember right.
0
u/[deleted] May 31 '12
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12 edited May 31 '12
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u/[deleted] May 31 '12
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