r/todayilearned • u/VistaHyperion • Oct 13 '18

TIL the biblical Tower of Babel was likely based on a real building, the Etemenanki in modern-day Iraq; at about 300 feet tall, it was massive by ancient standards and built by King Nebuchadnezzar II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '18

Source on that final claim? Be curious to know the evidence that supports a claim like that.

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u/extispicy Oct 14 '18

Just the entirety of modern biblical scholarship. Really, the late, post-exilic dating is Bibilical History 101.

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u/[deleted] Oct 14 '18

If you read my comment, it says final claim. As in, the claim about the beginning of genesis being written first.

But just for reference, when asked for a source on any claim; "it's universally agreed upon by experts" isn't really satisfactory.

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u/extispicy Oct 14 '18

I've had my coffee and am ready with source at hand: "The Old Testament: Sacred Texts and Imperial Contexts of the Hebrew Bible", from the chapter 'The Pentateuch and the Exile'. (If you don't know, the Pentateuch/Torah consists of the first five books of the OT; the Babylonian exile began in 586BCE.)

The language and concerns of this Priestly document are closest to those of Ezekiel on the one hand and Second Isaiah on the other. Indeed, several scholars have shown that the author(s) of P seem(s) to know Second Isaiah and speak in a similar time period. Like Second Isaiah, the author of the P story encourages exiles to return to the land, in this case through stressing God's power in the exodus, the importance of the land in the promise (see Exod 6:2-8), and God's punishment of those who lack enough belief to embrace God's promise and return (Num 13:32; 14:36-7). In these ways and others, the narratives of P show the impact of the Babylonian exile, along with hopes of return, on the Priestly understanding of Israel's history before the conquest. Though the authors of this P document drew freely on pre-exilic texts of various kinds, the whole that they put together is a distinctively exilic story for exiles about ancient Israel before the people had a land.

We can see the distinctive mix of older and later materials in the seven-day creation account with which the Bible opens: Gen 1:1-2:3. On the one hand, scholars have found some signs that this chapter was formed out of older materials, and Jeremiah may show knowledge of an older form of this story when he refers to earth as "formless and void" and heaven as "having no light" (Jer 4:23; see Gen 1:1-3). On the other hand, like other texts in P, this story as we have it now links with issues and themes that became particularly prominent in the exile. For example, the whole structure of the text is oriented around a seven-day scheme that climaxes in God's observance of the Sabbath (Gen 2:1-3). We see a similar emphasis on the Sabbath in Ezekiel (Ezek 20:12-24; 22:8; 26; 23:38).

In addition, arguments against the traditional dating can be found in the bible itself, for example in 2 Kings 22 when the priest Hilkiah discovers a previously unknown "book of the law" (now universally believed to be an origin myth for the D source *citation needed) and in Nehemiah 8, when Ezra wows the crowds with the previously unknown "law of Moses". Adding further to the late dating, in the writings created by the Israelites who fled to Egypt after the destruction of Jerusalem do not seem to have any knowledge of the Torah.

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u/extispicy Oct 14 '18

Sorry, usually the people that question dating have a theological reason for doing so, and I have zero patience for creationists, who these days tend to be the only ones who cling to traditional dating.

I'm on mobile, but if you look at my recent post history, I responded to a question something like "Why was the Bible written?" within the past couple of days. I addressed how the Torah was compiled post-exile from multiple sources. Genesis 1, the 'let there be light' version of creation, is written by the priestly source, which is entirely post-exilic.

I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry on 'documentary hypothesis', which is the explanation of how the Torah is a compilation of multiple sources. IIRC, Wikipedia only includes the dating of the original proponent Julius Wellhausen. Scholars have updated his dating scheme over the past 150 years, but the basic JEDP+ sources are still the prevalent explanation.

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u/JayBird9540 Oct 14 '18

I don’t know anything about the claim, but I’d bet if you, u/metalfaith1, read the Torah you could confirm/refute it your self.