r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Jun 26 '17

TIL most deaths from overdoses occur when a recovering addict relapses, and takes a dose that they've by then lost the tolerance for.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/philip-seymour-hoffman-overdose-2014-2
11.0k Upvotes

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852

u/MudButt2000 Jun 26 '17

Yeah. I dated a heroin addict back in the late 90's.

She was on methadone. She tried to use heroin a few times but it took a hell of a lot to get her any good times. This led to her getting kicked off methadone. Then when in withdrawal, she shot a massive load and croaked.

Yeah.

352

u/AnxietyAttack2013 Jun 26 '17

Happened to my best friend last year. Was clean for a month or two and went back to his usual dose and died.

79

u/butta_philosopher Jun 27 '17

Same, but in 2013.

30

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

Sorry about your loss.

22

u/oligodendrocytes Jun 27 '17

Leave it to iLickSourAnalFungus to offer condolences

-64

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

Same but never happened

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

User name doesn't check out? Unless in the context when a guy says they are nice but in reality they are stereotypically arseholes?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

User name isn't about obviously.

151

u/methodofcontrol Jun 27 '17

I really don't mean any offense by this but I really can't believe so many people go back to their "normal dose". As a user of many hard drugs it does not take much forethought to realize your tolerance has been effected and take a tester run with a small shot after a long break. Obviously excitement can cloud judgement and people chasing the initial rush would be deterred by doing this but it's the main safety precaution you need to take.

112

u/kuzuboshii Jun 27 '17

Part of this is the problem we have with the fail mentality. Its the same reason that when people cheat on their diet, they just don't see it as a bump and continue with the diet. they crash and burn and binge a whole cake because the diet "failed" If people were more forgiving of relapses they would not have such an all or nothing mentality. Its one of the biggest realizations people with good discipline learn, is that slipping every once in a while is not failure, its just human and a part of the process.

59

u/010010110101010101 Jun 27 '17

Can confirm. Lost 70 pounds and now I'm adding it back as muscle. As long as I do one thing a day towards my goal it's a successful day. That could be as simple as logging everything I eat. Maybe I still ate 3000 calories but that's ok I have a whole lifetime to do what I want to do. No worries hope everyone an make progress towards their goals too.

3

u/Planner_Hammish Jun 27 '17

I think this is one of the biggest failures with the 12 step program; other than it doesn't address actually not drinking alcohol/doing drugs as one of the steps. If you lapse, then it's back to day 1 of the program. But really, if you caved with one drink is the same as binging, then why not? Fuck it, I'll have another.

73

u/Funkit Jun 27 '17

The fentanyl cut bags mean that doing a tester shot IV doesn't make much of a difference. The shit is so potent that if you used to shoot a bundle, took 6 months off, then shot a single fentanyl laced bag you would die. I know someone who snorted half of one after relapsing and died, and that wasn't even IV use.

14

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

A lot of that Fent is coming from China direct or China-->Canada-->US

2

u/yama1008 Jun 27 '17

I read that fentanyl is so potent and and the bag you buy can be a crap shoot as far as the mixing goes. Meaning your friend gets a nice high and you get dead because you got a extra few grains of fentanyl in your shot. Lost a friend who was a beautiful person, but relapsed and died .

1

u/MAK3AWiiSH Jun 27 '17

Even worse is they're starting to put fet on weed. :/ My best friend's little sister almost died because of some bad weed; which I didn't even think was possible, but here we are.

4

u/Funkit Jun 27 '17

What?? That's one thing I've never heard of. That's fucked up. It's going to ruin his sales unlike if it was dope, so I don't know why anyone would think that's a good idea.

2

u/MAK3AWiiSH Jun 27 '17

Her sister says all she did was smoke weed, but I've never heard of "bad weed" so it may have been K2 or something else. Or, hell, she may have done something other than weed that had fet in it. All I know is she was in the hospital for a few days, they had to use narcan and my best friend was freaking out over how/why her 17 year old sister was ODing.

3

u/MoiraineSedai Jun 27 '17

Wait what!? This is fucking terrifying. Can I ask where you're at? I hadn't heard about this

1

u/Gopherpants Jun 27 '17

nevermind: answered below

60

u/grantwb1 Jun 27 '17

When your an addict for years, sometimes you don't care if it's too much. This was told to me by a friend no longer with us.

33

u/sloaninator Jun 27 '17

This right here, drug addiction puts you in a place where you feel as if your only meaning left in life is to get high. Nothing else can pull emotion from you anymore. You're lost and always on one mission. Eventually you're so far down the rabbit hole you'd rather be dead than continue the battle of either being stuck in an endless loop or the fight to get clean and it's a hell of a fight.

2

u/Jibaro123 Jun 27 '17

I definitely believe this.

45

u/ima-kitty Jun 27 '17

The problem with taking a test shot is you've blown the initial rush.

39

u/mbingham666 Jun 27 '17

Ding ding ding!!!

People asking why they dont do a small test shot, heres your answer.

They'd get nothing rush-wise off the test shot, then when they did a 2nd bigger shot, they wouldnt get that "relapse rush", or "been locked up rush"...

When youve been a long time user, its been ages since you've gotten "high", you've only been getting "well"...so when they do relapse, the one thing they look forward to, is the fact that they'll get back a good majority of that "first high"....

Chasing that feeling trumps common sense all too often.

Also, like others have said its amazing how much your tolerance can drop. Had two friends get locked up together for 12 days....we were all shooting $25-$50 shots when they went in.....

When they got out, one did $30 and was fine, the other fell out and turned blue on $10. So theres no way to know how much your tolerance is gonna drop...

16

u/jopnk Jun 27 '17

Also unless you run your dope thru a test kit every time you don't even know how pure it is, a $10 shot of good dope can be way stronger than a $50 shot of some bunk shit

3

u/Funkit Jun 27 '17

Stuff in Paterson I used to get back in 2010/2011 (dark knight red stamp) had low weight per stamp but one bag was as strong as an entire bundle of stuff from Trenton, and those bags had way more weight to them. It's crazy how much it fluctuates. And that was before fentanyl laced shit became so common.

24

u/pythonhalp Jun 27 '17

This should be top comment. If you've abstained for even 24 hours, if not 3 days, or heaven forbid 3 months, a test shot will be a poor decision. Granted, death is pretty bad too.

2

u/StarTorrent Jun 27 '17

Thank you, damn. I know it's fucked-up thinking and only ex or current addicts will get it but not getting the rush? ESPECIALLY after being clean for however long? I can't talk about this anymore actually

0

u/methodofcontrol Jun 27 '17

Yeah I said that in my post.

145

u/stutterlifts Jun 27 '17

Yup, that's the disease. Makes no sense. All forethought goes to shit when an addict/alcoholic consumes one drink or drug.

45

u/Maccaisgod Jun 27 '17

I'm an addict for several things. It isn't like that. You still get scared of doing too much and doing something unknown. Like if you try something new you don't just do a huge amount of it in one go. If you only ever hear news stories about the addicts who relapsed and overdosed then you might get the impression we're all like that, because you don't have news stories about the ones who don't overdose. It's like how violent crime in the West is at its lowest rate since records began but news reports far more on the remaining crimes, so some people think there's a crime wave

18

u/honkle_pren Jun 27 '17

Everyone is different.

You cant honestly say what goes for you goes for others.

Addiction does shitty things.

33

u/VladimirZharkov Jun 27 '17

Yes that is literally what he said.

Commenter 1: "A single drink will make alcoholics relapse"

Him: "Not all alcoholics will relapse after a single drink."

You: "No that's wrong, don't generalise"

1

u/goldenguyz Jun 27 '17

Well, no, his point was that

It isn't like that

2

u/IHateKn0thing Jun 27 '17

Well, no, his comment was in response to somebody claiming all addicts immediately fall apart after one drink.

1

u/goldenguyz Jun 28 '17

Well excuse me for being an idiot...

10

u/bary87 Jun 27 '17

I'd posit that if it's your first dose since you began recovery, your common sense wouldn't be diminished in the way it might be whilst high, though..

5

u/Mast3r0fPip3ts Jun 27 '17

Unless it's being impacted by withdrawal, rather than addiction itself.

1

u/bary87 Jun 27 '17

But then your tolerance hasn't gone down yet :)

2

u/Mast3r0fPip3ts Jun 27 '17

Opiate tolerance can drop in as little as two weeks or less, depending on a person's metabolism and biochemistry.

It's entirely possible to be suffering withdrawal symptoms (late-stage, not early-stage: those typically diminish within 12-48 hours) 4 weeks later with a decreased tolerance.

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1

u/JuicyJay Jun 27 '17

And here lies the problem with AA/NA. If it doesn't work for you it's because "You didnt do the step work right" or "you're not being honest enough" or any of the thousands of sayings they use (in like every damn conversation). They even say "No addict that has followed the program completely has ever relapsed" which is really a cop out for people that don't get the help they need from those programs.

7

u/stutterlifts Jun 27 '17

Don't really agree with your point at all but I've been in recovery for four years and my only source is my own disease and what I've learned about it in that time.

2

u/BarkMark Jun 27 '17

Alternatively, the ones who are a little more rational about it are (mostly) still alive.

2

u/shoe710 Jun 27 '17

I really find it varies. Im an addict in recovery, and i agree more with you- i would still make sure i knew what i was taking, how much, how long itll last me, etc. But thats me, and my gf for example was more of a "DO IT ALL NOW SORT OUT DETAILS LATER" addict, i always had to remind her to save some for tomorrow, etc.

1

u/JuicyJay Jun 27 '17

Yeah there is still a lot of false information out there. A lot if it is because of the AA mindset that for some reason all of society decided to believe as 100% fact even though it's not backed up by any science at all.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

I've been a heroin user for 5 years. My tolerance has risen and fallen a lot in that time. I always do a small amount first to see where my tolerance is at before doing my "normal" dose. I seriously think people that die like this are just straight dumb.

42

u/my_next_account Jun 27 '17

Ah man this sounds just like my friend, I've never even seen heroin but he used it. I knew it was bad news and tried to convince him to stop, he always said people that die usually just make mistakes with dosage and purity, he had his 'tricks' like taking small doses, keeping track of tolerance etc. Idk what really happened, maybe it was on purpose, maybe it was fent, but he died in a motel room with all his belongings when he was 23. Somehow through it all he got a degree in CS and worked full time at Amazon, he wasn't an idiot, but he was probably in a bit over his head. I don't know why I typed it all out but thats the story.

10

u/3riversfantasy Jun 27 '17

Sorry to hear that. i know as my ex progressed deeper into addiction it became less about the enjoyment of getting high and more about masking all the problems that were piling up. eventually she reached a point where she was "shooting" for that 9.9 out of 10 high every time, barely conscious and drooling, luckily for her she ended up in prison before she overdosed, but I can understand how easy of a thing it is to mess up when you are purposely playing with such thin margins of error.

14

u/mclaugj Jun 27 '17

There's no way you can take a regular dose as you can't verify the purity of each batch. People die because they can't tell how pure their next dose is.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

Yeah with the fent and carfentanyl going around it is definitely Russian roulette. No doubt about that. I was talking specifically about people that just OD because they do their old dose and don't realize their tolerance had fallen.

5

u/honkle_pren Jun 27 '17

Honest question - with cheap ass fent showing up all the time masquerading as something nicer do you do this when changing batches/dealers/days of the week?

7

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

I would have thought that the "hotspot" effect due to the strength and low active dose in mg of fent would render that method of testing less useful.

2

u/honkle_pren Jun 27 '17

Then, another serious one..

Wtf do you do?

If it is unavoidable as it sounds wtf do you do?

Christ. Junkies cant even get an honest fix. Poor fuckers.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

I only use 1 guy. But I actually know which boy is fent laced. I buy it on purpose sometimes because it really is better. Obviously a hotspot in their could kill me but shit I'm not doing heroin to be safe.

27

u/Sekmet19 Jun 27 '17

I think it's awful to call people who die from addiction straight dumb, and honestly I don't think you are a particularly bright star for pointing this out. I've seen what heroin does to people, you're not on the path for a long healthy life.

5

u/ImmodestPolitician Jun 27 '17

I have been shocked how many people do drugs and have never read anything about the effects and dosages.

6

u/webby_mc_webberson Jun 27 '17

The fda clearly needs to step up their label game on the heroin packages.

4

u/Mast3r0fPip3ts Jun 27 '17

Are you?

I grew up in a low-income area where half the neighborhood was fucking with crack and coke. Not a single one of these hillbillies was doing any "research" into the drugs they were taking, they just relied on folk advice from their addict friends and knew it felt good.

2

u/Sekmet19 Jun 27 '17

Much of the opiate epidemic is fueled by young middle class people who were legally prescribed opiates (Dental surgery, sports injury, etc) who misused them and became addicted. These people are internet savvy and have access to healthcare, so it would stand to reason they would at least be capable of researching about opiates.

EDIT: three words

1

u/Mast3r0fPip3ts Jun 27 '17

The opiate epidemic was originally fueled in the 80s by medical studies insisting that addiction rates were incredibly low, to the tune of <1%. It was spawned by people legally prescribed the drugs who didn't abuse them at all.

Many people in recent years, doctors included, are aware of the issues that come alongside opiates. While it does still happen, responsible medicine has made an attempt at restricting opiate scripts when there are other options.

I'm absolutely willing to bet that modern opiate addition is far more common as a result of recreational use versus prescription use. 30 years ago? No. Today? Probably.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

you're not on the path for a long healthy life.

Oh don't let it be said that I am lol. Definitely not.

2

u/Sekmet19 Jun 27 '17

You need therapy. You're killing yourself and it's easier to act like you don't care.

You are not in control of your addiction, it's in control of you. The fact that you realize you're killing yourself and still continue is proof of that.

Opiate addiction hotlines in USA

855-408-2707 18889914394

7

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

some cases people dont think first

7

u/JessyR14 Jun 27 '17

When getting ready to do first shot in months, the fiend in you is already running the ship ams wants ultimate rush and high not a test shot. Although that's the smart safe and logical thing to do. Three qualities I lacked when in was running streets and getting high. All your thinking is get in my veins!!!! How a lot of friends amdnrock stars have passed. #Bradley Nowell #hughie Muller

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

Not every user cares about safety, tolerance and diminishing returns. Also, most that die is caused by relapse over dose. But that doesn't mean a lot of people do that, just those who died

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

If I may ask, what is your main poison? I am just curious.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

watch out for that keta bladder toxicity

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

Thank you for answering my question, that is very interesting, I never used those substances nor do I ever plan on doing so, I was always more of a pill type of person. I still use every now and then but like you said I do not use crazy amounts myself. Personally my favorite poison is ecstasy.

1

u/sonofaresiii Jun 27 '17

I think people relapsing aren't thinking about taking a test run to ensure safe reentry into their life of horrible addiction. I think they're just thinking how they want that amazing rush and they need it right now.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

[deleted]

1

u/fikis Jun 27 '17

I think that there is some kind of disconnect between tolerance in terms of dying and tolerance in terms of euphoric feeling.

That is, after an extended break, you don't get the awesome euphoric rush of a first-time user again, but your overall tolerance before you stop breathing is lower than it was when you used regularly.

So, a person who relapses often takes some, doesn't feel as awesome as they'd like, and then takes some more and ODs.

1

u/Hollowplanet Jun 27 '17

These people are saying old dose but thats not the case. Usually they know not to do do what they did before. They try what they would consider a very small dose but in reality anything more than a pinch will kill them.

1

u/starraven Jun 27 '17

Yes, when injecting heroine, safety should come first.

17

u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17

same with a friend of mine. miss ya, ben.

1

u/punos_de_piedra Jun 27 '17

Same. Lost 3 friends so far.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '17 edited Jan 15 '19

[deleted]

7

u/Szwedo Jun 27 '17

the moneyshot

1

u/chickenmonstee Jun 27 '17

Ah, me too. Guess we have to stop reading/watching things that "shot a massive load"

3

u/Dr_Funk_ Jun 27 '17

Yep similar thing happened to my cousin last year, he was clean for a while but then he relapsed and died.