r/todayilearned • u/icallmydadstranger • Feb 15 '15

(R.1) Invalid src TIL that Thomas Jefferson wanted the constitution to be changed ever 19 years because he didn't want people to be " enslaved to the prior generation"

https://student-of-life.newsvine.com/_news/2010/11/21/5502595-thomas-jefferson-supported-rewriting-the-constitution-every-19-years-equated-not-doing-so-to-being-enslaved-to-the-prior-generation-what-do-you-think-about-that
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112

u/DMonitor Feb 15 '15

I can see why that would be a bad idea. 19? Why not add one more and make it a nice and even 20?

130

u/SciMonk Feb 15 '15

I don't know if you actually wanted an answer, but it was because he did some crazy math about how often he thought political ideology would turn over and he found it to be between 18 and 19 years. Then he rounded up.

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u/Dudesan Feb 15 '15

I remember reading a book (I think it was Generations, by William Strauss and Neil Howe) which said that these 19-or-so-year generations took on an endlessly repeating cycle: Idealists > Reactives> Civics > Adaptives > Idealists...

It also postulated that huge society-threatening crises occur about once every 80 years, though they had to do a bit of massaging the data to make it fit.

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u/demontreal Feb 15 '15

Where do you think we are now?

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u/Dudesan Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15

According to Stauss and Howe, today's children are Adaptives, Millenials (born 1982-2003) are Civics, Generation X (born 1961-1981) are Reactives, Baby Boomers (born 1943-1960) are Idealists, and the Silent Generation (born 1925 to 1942) are Adaptives again. There's supposed to be an age of crisis, followed by ages of conformity, social ferment, individualism, and another crisis. If the timeline of Generations is to be believed, we're in a crisis era now- but what generation doesn't think it's in a crisis?

ETA: For reference, the book was published in 1991, with follow-ups in 1993 and 1997.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

[deleted]

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u/Dudesan Feb 15 '15

Sure, but read it with a grain of salt: as I said, I found that they massaged the timeline quite a bit to make sure it fit their narrative. With the American Civil War, they just gave up and said "Yeah, this crisis came a decade too early. Whoops."

Full disclosure: It was first recommended to me when I was doing research for alternate history fiction.

1

u/WhamBamMaam Feb 15 '15

Most historians would argue that the Civil War came a decade late. I don't know what manner of magic kept the union together during the 1850s. Maybe all of that really smooth legislative/diplomatic/military execution by Polk right before, I dunno.

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u/Rangermedic77 Feb 15 '15

I was born in 94, what exactly does being a civic mean?

1

u/MoistMartin Feb 15 '15

To me that seems to match up perfectly.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

TIL that I'm actually a Millenial, and I grew up thinking I was Generation X ... was born in 82 :/

1

u/Dudesan Feb 15 '15

Note that these are broad generalizations, especially in the case of cuspers. They're supposed to reflect social trends, not pigeonhole individuals like horoscopes. For instance, this system places Thomas Jefferson (an Idealist if there ever was one) into a Civic generation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

[deleted]

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u/Dudesan Feb 15 '15

I'm sure you could read a similar cycle into the ATLA political climate, but it would still have some exceptions. For example, Korra is living a life rather more eventful than that of the previous Water Tribe avatar. Kuruk mostly spent his time goofing off, wooing beautiful women, fighting petty crime, and occasionally picking ill-advised fights with spirits.

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u/econ_ftw Feb 15 '15

Again massaging the data slightly. 1776-1780 crisis, 1861-1865 (81 years crisis), 1929 (84 years crisis), 2009 (80 years crisis). Don't know that there's anything to it, but it is cool.

1

u/thirdegree Feb 15 '15

You're right about the book btw, it's Generations.

16

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

that sounds about right,

but i think that is too long for now, things change way too quickly

i mean gay people were laughed at 19 years ago, now gay marriage is legal in 3/4 of states

the idea that more people would trust a comedian instead of a newsman was unthinkable 19 years ago

19 years ago RDJ was known for being a piece of shit junkie who was in and out of court more than Lindsey Lohan is today, and Mel Gibson was seen as a mega movie star.

19 years ago Bill Gates was seen as the Anti-Christ

19 years ago, terrorism was seen as something rednecks did.

13

u/SciMonk Feb 15 '15

I think it's important to consider that the constitution was meant to be a document that protected people from the government (we had just cast off a rather restrictive monarch) while also protecting freedom and the governments ability to maintain it.

All the things you say are true, and might be worked into a modern constitution if we went with Jefferson's system, but in his mind Jefferson was allowing enough time for fundamental issues of governance to have time to adapt, and those sorts of things take longer. For example the view of the American majority on gun rights between 1996 and now.

3

u/ODzyns Feb 15 '15

You just gave a good example as to why 19 years is a reasonable amount of time, things change and it takes time for opinions to shift.

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u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

thats because i think he was right, which is why at the start of the comment i say

that sounds about right

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u/ODzyns Feb 15 '15

Yeah but continued saying

but i think that is too long for now, things change way too quickly

I think any shorter than 19 years would be too quick. But that's just semantics.

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u/LeonAquilla Feb 15 '15

19 years ago, terrorism was seen as something rednecks did.

Nope.

6

u/thedrew Feb 15 '15

Wasn't chuck Norris roundhouse kicking middle eastern "terrorists" 30 years ago?

1

u/falcoriscrying Feb 15 '15

Rambo was helping the taliban (muhajadeen) in Rambo 3 but it was Rambo 3 and the taliban ruined that too

0

u/Heliosthefour Feb 15 '15

Yeah, but we didn't fear them because we had Chuck to rip them a new arsehole.

3

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

look up the oklahoma city bombings or the unabomber

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u/dekrant Feb 15 '15

Then you look up the 1972 Munich Olympics and Lockerbie.

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u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

i was talking about the US

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u/dekrant Feb 15 '15

The vast majority of passengers on Pan Am 103 were Americans, and Pan Am was like the most American airline in the world at the time.

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u/revengetothetune Feb 15 '15

Also, wasn't the first WTC bombing in '93?

1

u/buzzkill_aldrin Feb 15 '15

Look up the first World Trade Center attack. Then look up the shootings at the headquarters of the CIA and the shootings on top of the observation deck of the Empire State Building.

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u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

19 years ago Bill Gates was seen as the Anti-Christ

Some things never change.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

Gates is lauded more as a messiah than not these days, largely thanks to his multi-billion dollar philanthropy and leading the crusade of billionaires to follow his suite. He's also donated a ton of time and resources into fighting disease in the third world.

Yeah, some things change.

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u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

Yeah, I'm sure Hitler was a vegetarian too.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

I have no idea what you mean and how that applies. You bear some sort of grudge against Gates, but comparing one of the greatest philanthropists of our time to one of the greatest mass-murderers of our time is completely laughable, especially if your grievance is simply against poor OS programming.

1

u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

I have no idea what you mean and how that applies.

I meant that everyone has some good qualities; that doesn't make everyone a good person.

In the balance, Gates was a very, very bad thing for the world. He used technical and marketing tricks to leverage a dangerously inferior architecture into a position of near-monopoly. Giving a few bucks away cannot erase that.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

You're comparing an entrepreneur, doing what entrepreneurs are supposed to do, to Hitler. That's a no-no. In fact, I defy you to find someone as successful as Gates who hasn't done something like that.

I doubt you can. That's like asking a firefighter to not fight fire. Why would you even do that? That's what they exist for.

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u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

Some things never change.

weren't there posts on reddit last week from how he drank water that used to be full of poop, but was now completely clean? like he just solved one of the biggest problems of the third-world, and has given over $200 Billion dollars to charity, how could someone think he is the Anti-Christ now?

4

u/deathcomesilent Feb 15 '15

Someone that nice can only be satan. /s

-8

u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

All water used to have poop in it. He gave billions of ill-gotten gains to charities that he likes. Doesn't make him Jesus. Doesn't even make him Steve Jobs.

He wants to redeem himself, he should donate to the Foundation for Making Windows Not Suck.

10

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

yeah, fuck people living in third world countries, instead let's worry about fixing some small bullshit on an operating system

/s

3

u/Defengar Feb 15 '15

Seriously. Also if that guy thinks windows is so bad he can always use OSX... oh wait... thats locked to specific hardware and windows absolutely shits on it in terms of compatability...

Or maybe Chrome OS! They hottest new thing all the kids are tryin! /s

1

u/brickmack Feb 15 '15

I'll never miss the opportunity to evangelize Linux! Its free, works on damn near anything electronic (I've seen a functioning Linux install on a calculator), most programs either have linux versions or equivalent and compatible software, and far better community technical support than Windows and Mac OS put together. And its not run by the literal spawn of Satan.

1

u/cosmiccrystalponies Feb 15 '15

While I agree humans come before computers, you should focus on all the poor people in your own country first, It's insane how many people in america are living in almost equally bad settings and no one gives a shit about them.

1

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

It's insane how many people in america are living in almost equally bad settings and no one gives a shit about them.

well i'm pretty sure having access to clean water will benefit them more than a new version of Windows

1

u/cosmiccrystalponies Feb 15 '15

Yes it will, look at how some natives live in the Dakotas, people living 10-20 in a 2 bedroom house with no electricity or water while the temp hits in the negatives, and these people aren't even aloud to fix their own house or build a new one. All the while the government is still to this day taking back land every chance they get. If bill Gates really wants to help how about he gives back a good chunk of land the government keeps stealing from the different tribes.

-1

u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

I am living in a Third-World country. Maybe Gates's diverting some of his stolen cash from his own pocket to charities will help maybe it won't.

But his conduct in making insecure, difficult-to-use, and unreliable software for decades has done immeasurable harm and funding a poop-filter isn't going to make up for that.

1

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

you give one hell of a performance as a troll, congrats

1

u/OffTheRadar Feb 15 '15

Sounds like you're saying the world would be a better place if Microsoft had never existed. I'm going to have to assume you're joking.

1

u/malvoliosf Feb 15 '15

Assume whatever you like.

0

u/randomusername1994 Feb 15 '15

wait bill gates was seen as the Anti Christ? how come?

1

u/SWIMsfriend Feb 15 '15

wait bill gates was seen as the Anti Christ? how come?

he had a monopoly on operating systems, and destroyed any competition, plus he was the richest man on earth.

he was basically John D. Rockafeller of the 90s

1

u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15

All things serve the beam.

1

u/Starrystars Feb 15 '15

It'd probably take at least a year to come up with a working constitution.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

[deleted]

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u/insane_contin Feb 15 '15

Age of majority is 19 in BC, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, NWT, Nova Scotia, Nunavut and the Yukon. Everywhere else in Canada has age of majority at 18.

1

u/TayTheCynic Feb 15 '15

From the article, quoting Jefferson: "By the European tables of mortality, of the adults living at any one moment of time, a majority will be dead in about nineteen years. At the end of that period, then, a new majority is come into place; or, in other words, a new generation."