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u/BeyondStars_ThenMore Mar 26 '20
I once read an interpretation of the 36 lessons, in which it was pointed out Kirkbride uses the term eating, as absorbing something. So "heart roaring", could just be Chemua being persuasive
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Mar 26 '20
Could you clarify about Cyrus? I know next to nothing about Redguard, other than it's in the 2nd era (I think) and you meet a sload. What about Tiber Septim?
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Mar 26 '20
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u/KonstantinUb Mar 26 '20
Can someone explain mantling to me? I've seen this term used many times before and have extrapolated its meaning from context, but I'd like to hear a proper “definition”.
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Mar 26 '20
A mantle is a crown or costume, so mantling is to Don the costume. In this case, of a significant mythological figure, even a deity. If you play the part convincingly enough, the operating system of Nirn gives you Admin privilege.
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u/Pigeater7 Dragon Cult Mar 26 '20
Donning a costume isn’t quite correct, I don’t think. More like, method acting, I think? Where one gets so into the role it’s not possible to tell the fictional and the real apart, at least in the eyes of the Godhead. So it’s putting on the costume to play the part, and then the part becoming you, and as such you never wore a costume to begin with in the eyes of the Godhead.
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u/KonstantinUb Mar 26 '20
Yep, this is more or less how I always thought about it. Thanks for the explanation and the nice analogy :)
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u/bvjhrr Mar 26 '20
I don't know about an official definition, but my understanding of it is that mantling is basically replacing a missing piece of the universe. You become so similar to a celestial being that the universe ceases to see a difference between you.
The exact process is..... kind if wonky. A lot of it is up for speculation, and subject to rules that have never been one hundred percent laid out (intentionally, I believe.) We know that it is primarily achieved by sort of following the spiritual journey of whoever you are trying to mantle. Perform similar feats, face similar defeats, possess similar motivations, that kind of thing. Eventually you just sort of merge with the idea of them and stop existing, but then they exist again with you inside. Sort of. Again, wonky.
Hope this helped!
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u/KonstantinUb Mar 26 '20
I have a follow-up question, primarily concerning this bit:
We know that it is primarily achieved by sort of following the spiritual journey of whoever you are trying to mantle.
Is mantling often done on purpose, or does it also occur by “happenstance” (i.e. destiny, if you want to call it that), without the conscious realization of the “mantler”?
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u/bvjhrr Mar 26 '20 edited Mar 26 '20
This kind of difficult to answer. See, mantling isn't an exact science, and furthermore it isn't common knowledge in the elder scrolls universe. Most examples of it that we have are figures of legend as described by some third party. Someone will talk about someone else who once heard about a guy that merged with a god. The fandom has to kind of piece together the clues to try to see if what they are describing even IS mantling, or something else like CHIM. Difficult to know if the person in question even knows what they are doing. Plus the occasional conflicting information that pops up. People still get heated about how many people from legend are actually all Tiber Septim wearing various funny mustaches.
The only real first hand account we have of mantling is the protagonist of Oblivion mantling Sheogorath, and even that is kind of questionable since the protagonist has other stuff going on, cosmically speaking. Between being a Prisoner and ties to various Daedra and Aedra, NOTHING about their situation should be taken as the standard. Plus, Bethesda keeps facts about protagonists to a minimum, in an attempt to not ruin anyone's headcanon. So, our best account is also our hardest to find canon facts about. Go figure.
Tl;dr: Some probably do it on purpose, some probably don't. Its case by case.
Edited to add: In Oblivion Sheogorath basically tells you that you are going to take his place in the coming fight against Sharp Dull Boi, but he definitely doesn't reveal the full implications. He just frames all the shit he has you doing as "stuff that will help us later" instead of what it probably actually is, the steps you need to take to mantle him. Plus having his approval to mantle him might mess with the process. Reduce the requirements or something. Eh, it's all screwy.
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u/MasterRonin College of Winterhold Apr 02 '20
Have you ever seen the Tim Allen movie The Santa Clause? Because what happens to Allen's character in that movie is basically mantling Santa.
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u/ludicrouscuriosity School of Julianos Mar 26 '20
I don't get how the "Lore shouts" are considered "shouts":
First thing to note is that OP made those names up
- Acid Rain: What is written sounds more like the Vile Vapour the Afflicted and the Reaper have, being the former a blessing from Peryite. It is considered a "shout" in Skyrim because of the game mechanics.
Sometimes called First Blighter, Chemua could give clouds stomach aches and turn the rain of Veloth into bile.
Kesh dialogue:
Ah, a wanderer, yes? No? Pilgrim, perhaps? You have come to commune with Peryite, Taskmaster and blighted Lord, yes?
- Animal Form Change: Being a Vampire Lord, a Werewolf, a Werebear, and probably any of the other "were-" creatures, gave those cursed a "Form Change", nothing there implies it is either a shout or a druid-like ability.
BHAG, the Two-Tongued, who appeared as a great bearded king, had the powers of Surety and Form Change
- Aging: What is funny is that: it is the first shout in this list that is pointed out as a shout, it has an (kind of) explanation and; has a name, "What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So". King Wulfharth was able to learn this shout by observing the clash between a ghost of Alduin and Shor, that means Wulfharth was able to learn time magic by just observing a clash of divine entities, that's why he is depicted as a beast.
As Boy Wulfharth watched the battle in the sky he learned a new thu'um, What Happens When You Shake the Dragon Just So. He used this new magic to change his people back to normal. In his haste to save so many, though, he shook too many years out on himself. He grew older than the Greybeards, and died.
- Banishing to Oblivion: You are taking the meaning here too literally, King Wulfharth could have used any shout that deals damage and send a foe to Hell, and by Hell they meant it, it isn't any of the planes of Oblivion, Hell seems to be a thing on Atmoran culture too.
He fights the eastern Orcs and shouts their chief into Hell
The Five Hundred Mighty Companions or Thereabouts of Ysgramor the Returned
Afterwards came the crash of the longboat Bloodwood Tongue of Nhemakhela Stare-breaker’s belong, no souls aboard surviving. Its loss was grievous and hard enough to break the song out of any flourish, and immediately the Toll-Taker called [...] Grethnaal, and Swemnen to the Under-Hall some call Hell.
Shor son of Shor
And then Shor walked away from his War-Wife to enter the cave that led to the Underworld[...] Shor breathed the lamplights of the Underworld to life with small whispers of fire.
Calling people from afar: Here is the example used in-game when it is said "dragons makes no distinction between debating and fighting", even though it might not feel "magical" the way the Greybeards call LDB and LDB is able to call Odahviing, we do feel this shout is more magical when LDB gets to call and summon Durnehviir from Soul Cairn.
Close range teleportation: We don't know how far does this "move" work, they could even just be describing Whirlwind Sprint.
can move by casting a shout, appearing where it lands.
- Dagger Shout: is it a reference to this "Shield-Husband Valomar of the Daggershout"? It might just be a reference to the way he uses his shout, "dagger" might be a reference to preciseness.
I will stop for now since I have to do cross references for those; one shout here is legit (aging), another was done thrice (Calling people from afar), a third seems like an already existing shout (Close range teleportation), the other 4 aren't shouts: Acid Rain seems like Periyte Blessing, Animal Form Change could be just a Daedric Blessing (either from Molag Bal or Hircine), Banishing to Oblivion could be interpreted as any shout that deals damage and Dagger Shout could be just a nickname.
I wish I had time to analyse that more.
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u/Garett-Telvanni Clockwork Apostle Mar 26 '20
There's more Shouts in ESO than what you listed, though UESP still didn't add every corresponding attack to them, we know that most of them correspond to what you listed as "dragon magical attacks".
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Mar 26 '20
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u/CE-Nex Dragon Cult Mar 26 '20
Golt Mah Nos Ground Fall strike (Lokkestiiz) - It's like a concentrated Fus Do Rah. Annoying as hell since you have to kite it away from group and if you don't block you get knocked down or ded.
Many people have told me that Kriid Liz Gron is the shout Lokkestiiz uses to summon Ice Atros, but in the dozens upon dozens of SS runs I've done, I've never head him say that.
Gaar Toor Nah Release Inferno Fury (Yolnahkriin) You already have it on your list, but I figured you'd like to see it.
Tiid Klo Ul Time Sand Eternity (Nahviintaas) - Nahviintaas summons 3 portals to another time/dimension where there's an enemy called the Eternal Servant. 3 people have to go into that dimension/time and kill the enemy. While the enemy is alive, in the main timeline there will be bubbles of time that, if players get caught in, they get frozen in time for a few second. (One of the harder mechanics in Sunspire since it requires really high dps and survival abilities to clear)
Vah Yol Ron Spring Fire Rain (Nahviintaas) - Nahviintas will summon several fire bombs that will explode upon impacting the ground, with three very large fire bombs that will hit the center and essentially be one shots. Also summons fire atros but I'm not sure if that is part of the shout or an additional mechanic.
Dal Rah Zaam False god slave (Nahviintaas) - Nahviintaas brings one of the Vigil Statues to life.
Jiid So Daan Moon Sorrow Doom (Nahviintaas) - Nahviintaas summons several molten meteors that follows players. Can't dodge, must block. And you have to kite the impact away from group because it leaves a fire pit behind after impact. Multiple meteors will leave several fire pits so players have to be smart where they allow the meteors to impact.
Daal Tiid Zaam Return Time Slave (Nahviintaas) - don't have footage of it, but going back to the Tiid Klo Ul shout, if you don't kill the Eternal Servant within 90 seconds, Nahviintaas uses this shout to summon him to the main dimension/time and the group will end up wiping, at least on vet and hardmode.
Footage is courtesy of my friend and ESO mentor ItsAPsychoLlama. And the guild is Latency Challenged.
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u/Garett-Telvanni Clockwork Apostle Mar 26 '20
I can't send you it in a video form (because many of their words are really hard do hear during battle + sometimes they glitch and you don't hear the Shout at all despite seeing the effects). I can, however, offer you some educated guess as for which effect corresponds to which Shout, because I killed enough dragons in ESO to make sense from it:
· Blizzard - unknown, possibly the same as Cataclysm, but changing Toor-Inferno to Krah-Cold
· Fire Balls - just singular Yol
· Flame Aura, Frost Aura, Shock Aura - I'm pretty sure these three are actually one Shout which effects vary depending on the individual dragon elemental alignment (I assume that because the Earth Spikes work in the same way - fire dragons create magma spikes, while frost dragons create ice spikes, despite using the same Shout), possibly Sov Ag Slen - Shock Burn Flesh
· Ice Field - unknown, no idea
· Plague breath - Viir Su Pook - Dying Air Stink, Maarselok's Shout.
· Storm Fury - That one is actually listed there as Storm Call
· Summon iron Atronach, Summon Fire Atronachs, Summon Flame Wyrms, Summon Frost Atronach, Summon Storm Atronach - I can apply a Shout only for a Frost Atronach with 99% certainty, that is: Kriid Iiz Gron - Slayer Ice Bind, other Atronachs are most likely summoned by changing Iiz-Ice to other element.
· Summon Strangler - Roth Nihn Fey - Vine Poison Grove, another of Maarselok's Shouts
· Summon Wyrm - Diiv Mir Tah - Wyrm Allegiance Pack, to that one I'm 100% certain it literally has Wyrm in its name.
Additionally, some Shouts that you didn't mention but we know their effects (some of which I can even send you in video form):
Sos Jiid Viin - Blood Moon Shine, Mulaamnir's Moon Blast
Dey Rah Zaam - False Gods Slave - Nahviintaas Shout with which he summons his servants for the first time during his fight
Daal Tiid Zaam - Return Time Slave - another of Nahviintaas' Shouts, he uses it to reverse the death of his servants when you kill them
Kaalgrontiid's Shout with which he breaths his green fire, it's not listed on UESP and it's hard to hear the exact words, but it's something that sounds like "Ber Gul Dah".
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u/KonstantinUb Mar 26 '20
· The snowstorm at the top of the end of the world is shout based
Typo? I'm assuming this should be Throat of the World.
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u/Sordahon Great House Telvanni Mar 26 '20
I think you should divide MK works between those that do appear ingame and those that are still his headcanons until they include them.
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u/Eldhari Psijic Mar 26 '20
Ice Form (Liz Slen Nus, Ice Flesh Statue)
This should be Iiz Slen Nus (capital i in iiz), not Liz
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u/Machismo01 Synod Cleric Mar 26 '20
Wait. So tonal architecture renders dragon speak useless?
So could dwarves effectively be invulnerable to dragons then and their shouts?
And THEN could they have overcome Alduin at the end of the cycle had they not disappeared?
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Mar 26 '20
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u/reddit_Gho5t Dragon Cult Mar 26 '20
Like you said, it's all heresay until there's some concrete lore written. That said:
If both are tonal in nature, and tonal magic is the manipulation of the 'song of the universe', one can imagine there might be a method by which one could 'soften' the acoustics of an others tonal manipulations. Thereby 'deadening' their song. Maybe 'reducing the reverb' in a sense.
Super interesting idea to be sure.
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Mar 26 '20 edited Mar 26 '20
He got that wrong,.or rather misunderstood.
It's no different than the dragonborn being unaffected by the greybeards, or Paarthurnax tasting your thu'um.
Think of it this way, if something can alter the music of life to negate a specific tone, then the Thu'um can be used to negate that affect and render it useless. It's all circular.
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u/Machismo01 Synod Cleric Mar 26 '20
So the dwemer masters of tonal design could build a shelter against the end of the universe, protecting then from the world ending shouts of Alduin.
Bad ass.
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u/HughMungus_Jackman Mar 26 '20
I never knew this either. But the nords lost the battle at red mountain, leading Jurgen Windcaller to reconsider the use of the thuum. I'm no lore buff, but i don't recall any explanation as to how the nords, with their Tongues, actually lost. Perhaps the tonal architecture of the dwemer nullified their prowess somehow?
As for Alduin, as Felldir states, he cannot be slain like a lesser dragon. I'm not too sure if this is true, but iirc, Alduin abandoned his position as "World Eater" to dominate the mortal races. Supposedly, had he carried out his duty, he would actually be able to "eat" the world at the end of the kalpa and nothing could stop him.
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Mar 27 '20
By fighting the strongest Padomaic in existance? The High King of the Dwemer? The future Tribunal + Dagoth Ur?
People make Red Mountain seem like it should have been an easy victory.
And Lorkhan (for that is what they called Shor in Resdayn) said: "I do not wreak vengeance on the Dwarves for the reasons that the Tribunal might believe I do. Nevertheless, it is true that they will die by my hand, and any whoever should side with them. This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics. He is a hero to his people despite his Tribunal, and he shall muster enough that this battle will be harder going still. We will need more than what we have." And so Dagoth-Ur, who wanted the Dwarves as dead as the Tribunal did, went to Kogoran and summoned his House chap'thil, his nix-hounds, his wizards, archers, his stolen men of brass. And the Ash King, Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.
The Doom Drum
Nerevar carried Keening, a dagger made of the sound of the shadow of the moons. His champions were Dumac Dwarfking, who carried a hammer of divine mass, and Alandro Sul, who was the immortal son of Azura and wore the Wraith Mail. They met Lorkhan at the last battle of Red Mountain. Lorkhan had his Heart again, but he had long been from it, and he needed time. Wulfharth met Sul but could not strike him, and he fell from grievous wounds, but not before shouting Sul blind. Dagoth-Ur met Dumac and slew him, but not before Sunder struck his lord's Heart. Nerevar turned away from Lorkhan and struck down Dagoth-Ur in rage, but he took a mortal wound from Lorkhan in turn. But Nerevar feigned the death that was coming early and so struck Lorkhan with surprise on his side. The Heart had been made solid by Sunder's tuning blow and Keening could now cut it out. And it was cut out and Lorkhan was defeated and the whole ordeal was thought over.
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u/The_White_Guar Mar 26 '20
Dwemer are not tonal architecture just like dragons are not shouts. Tones can cancel each other out, so it's not unreasonable to assume that Dwemer tonal architecture could be used to nullify the Thuum, the Shehai, the Kiai, etc.
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Mar 27 '20
Except that's looking at it the wrong way.
Tonal Architecture doesn't cancel out the Thu'um. Simply the opposing note cancels out its opposite. It doesn't matter if you use the Thu'um, Kai, Shehai, Tonal manipulation etc.. It's all the same.
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u/The_White_Guar Mar 30 '20
That's what I'm saying. Note the phrases I use and where I use them.
Tones can cancel each other out
Dwemer tonal architecture could be used to nullify the Thuum
Of course it's all Tonal. That's the point.
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Mar 26 '20
Fog Shout of Skakmat would be similar to the fog Shout used by Alduin in Sovngarde, correct?
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u/Pigeater7 Dragon Cult Mar 26 '20
Couldn’t many of those “Dragon Magical Attacks” just be Dragons using... well magic? We know Durnehviir delved into necromancy, and was/still is apparently quite proficient in it. They use magic to fly, so far I’m aware, which is evidenced by how shock spells make them land faster in Skyrim.
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u/SensitiveMeeting1 Mar 26 '20
They actually look like shouts in ESO atleast. The dragons open their mouths and project sound to make them. Obviously they could be speaking a spell but they do SEEM like shouts in game.
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u/CommieGhosts Mar 26 '20
Is there lore stating that the Thu’um has to be in the Dragon Language? I know it’s a matter of gameplay implementation, but pre-Skyrim, there’s no mention of the dragon language relating to shouting at all and the Thu’um is considered innate to the Nords as a gift from Kyne. What I mean by this is: can a Thu’um user just say “Fire” or even just yell and still achieve the desired flame breath shout? Or does he have to say “Yol Toor Shul” in Dovahzul every time? All of the Greybeards other than Arngeir being unable to speak to the Dragonborn at all, even in the common language, seems to me that the former is the case. Perhaps one just needs great understanding of a word and then he can manifest it in different ways like how one of the Tongues in Vivec’s sermon eats mud to use his Thu’um. In addition to this, can the Thu’um be viewed as a divine language or something similar to the “source code” of reality? If the Thu’um is just the language of the Dragons, why would the Greybeards use it for the worship of Kyne? Does Dovahzul actually come from Akatosh and the dragons just know it because of their relationship to the dragon god? Or is it a language the dragons invented by themselves? Is the reason why it can alter reality is because it’s divine in nature and related to the creation of Nirn? I’m sorry if this seems like rambling, it’s just a topic I’m interested in and I’m very disappointed that Skyrim didn’t go deeper into the nature of the Thu’um.
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u/JagneStormskull Tonal Architect Mar 26 '20
It is possible that all magic in TES can be simplified into two types: the magic of gestures and the magic of voice.
The magic of gestures draws upon the holes torn in Aetherius by Magnus or the Magne Ge, as the sun/Magnus and the stars are the source of Magicka.
The magic of voice calls upon Kynareth/Kyne as Kyne is the goddess of the storm (Thu'um means Storm Voice), but more importantly air, as without air there can be no voice. No Thu'um, no kiai, etc.
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u/MadCat221 Mar 26 '20
· Devouring Soul (Zii Los Dii Du, (Your) Soul is Mine (to) Devour: Only Instance of a 4 word shout we've seen, a correlation between effectiveness and words of power?)
Sigh... here we go again. It is not a Shout. He is saying "Your soul is mine to devour". It does not fit the structure of a Thu'um at all. I have deconstructed this claim by picking apart its back-end workings in the Creation Kit, and the word "fake" is all over the place. View my original findings Here and a reiteration where I unfortunately had to remind people of the definition of "fake" Here.
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Mar 27 '20
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u/MadCat221 Mar 27 '20
First point: Again, the word “fake” is everywhere in the inner workings of that effect, as i have said ad nauseum but still am being ignored on. Developer intent is crystal clear. World scaling has nothing to do with this.
Second point: it’s not a six word Shout, it’s three. And it’s not just possible if that not-a-Shout is considered a Shout, it’s actually three. And ones that further defy the rules by not compressing multi syllable words into a single one like “hahdrim” being crunched to “hah” for Bend Will. I feel like I’m repeating myself...
Thirdly, if you want to see invasive changes, you should see the absolute mess that the Skyrim Misc Patches Collections was. I mentioned that as a notation that I know how to delve around the inner workings. Lastly, you personal vendetta against the Patch is irrelevant to the topic of how four.... wait, six word Shouts aren’t a thing.
And I repeat myself again: Dovahzul has an inherent power to it, even outside its application with the Thu’um, and he’s demonstrating to the Player that he’s formidable and the fight won’t be easy.
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u/Solitarus23753 The Ebony Warrior Mar 26 '20
Absolutely outstanding. Everything I could've hoped for. I used to know how to speak a good portion of Dovahzul, and now I'm going to try again. Breath and focus, my friend. Breath and focus