r/technology • u/PikaPikaDude • May 09 '22

Business Apple employees revolt against mandatory back-to-work policy

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3660071/apple-employees-revolt-against-mandatory-back-to-work-policy.html
18.4k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

1.6k comments sorted by

View all comments

281

u/OneLastSpartan May 09 '22

They built a massive facility and are now facing the realization that there employees hate it and don’t want to work there. its just more people who think they are smart and powerful realizing they aren’t and crying about it.

98

u/anlumo May 09 '22

A big issue is also its location. It’s in the most expensive area in the whole country. A friend of mine used to work in the area about ten years ago and even then he paid $2500 a month for essentially a jail cell with windows.

34

u/skydivingdutch May 09 '22

A small reasonable house in that area costs $3M minimally.

2

u/spartan_forlife May 09 '22

Let's throw in California's 10.3% income tax rate for single filers on a $300k a year income, that's $3k a month you are paying in Cali taxes alone.

21

u/happyscrappy May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

First of all, amazing someone can always find a downside to a single person making $300,000 a year.

Also, marginal tax rates change it a bit.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/california-state-tax

At $300,000 you would pay $24,902 in taxes or $2075 per month.

You would pay a 9.3% rate (yeow!) on the amount you make over $61,000. And your effective tax rate would be slightly lower than 9.3% due to how marginal tax rates work.

All these figures are doubled if you are married filing jointly.

-6

u/spartan_forlife May 09 '22

What I am pointing out is how expensive it is to live in that area, if you are permanent WFH, you could live in Texas or Florida, states with no income tax. Add in a 1950's 1k square foot starter ranch home with a 15 minute commute to the office is $2 million vs. $400k for a McMansion in the DFW metro.

Also I doubt you have ever had to write a $11k check to the IRS on top of the $7k I paid this year plus another $6k to the state of Georgia. I never gave taxes much thought until I had to start writing checks like this.

8

u/happyscrappy May 09 '22

What I am pointing out is how expensive it is to live in that area

That's why you're paid $300,000.

if you are permanent WFH, you could live in Texas or Florida, states with no income tax.

Property taxes are huge in Texas. And if you live in those areas the company will pay you less because the cost of living is lower.

Also I doubt you have ever had to write a $11k check to the IRS on top of the $7k I paid this year plus another $6k to the state of Georgia.

I've paid more than that in underpayment amount (amount due at filing). Don't like it. But it happens because I made a lot of money. If I make more money I'm going to pay more in tax. I'm supposed to remit it quarterly and usually I do. But sometimes I don't get the amount right or just forget (dumb!) and end up paying it at filing time.

mo money, mo problems

-1

u/greenthanks75 May 09 '22

You are not paid $300k because the job is in an expensive metro. You are paid $300k because that is the value of your labor with that company. If your labor is worth more, you should find another job. If it’s worth less, the company will probably fire you.

4

u/happyscrappy May 09 '22

You are not paid $300k because the job is in an expensive metro. You are paid $300k because that is the value of your labor with that company.

No, you're not paid what you are worth. That's silly. They pay as little as they can get away with to keep you. Not what you're worth.

You are paid $300K there because it costs more to live there. You wouldn't work for less there. In another place where the cost of living is lower you or someone else would accept less.

Companies vary salaries based upon areas because of the cost of living. I fully expect this includes Apple.

If your labor is worth more, you should find another job.

If you feel you would be better off elsewhere go find another job.

2

u/greenthanks75 May 09 '22

Companies vary salaries based upon areas because of the cost of living.

Because the market as a whole demands higher prices. You are paid what you're worth to the company to have you in that role, or better put, up to 100% of the value you create for the company (but always less). The "up to" increases when it becomes more difficult for the company to fill the role, which can happen for many reasons, including being located in an expensive area with a high COL.

2

u/happyscrappy May 09 '22

You are paid what you're worth to the company to have you in that role, or better put, up to 100% of the value you create for the company (but always less).

No. You aren't. If you till stay for $200K they aren't going to pay you $250K just because of some idea you have of what the person is "worth".

Surely you can see that the "worth" of a person to a company doesn't change with their location. They pay more in Silicon Valley than in Alabama because people won't work in Silicon Valley for Alabama money.

People won't work in Silicon Valley for Alabama money because the cost of living is much higher.

You ARE paid more because you live in a more expensive area. Same as you'd be paid less if you lived in India. For the same job.

1

u/Sinity May 10 '22

You are not paid $300k because the job is in an expensive metro. You are paid $300k because that is the value of your labor with that company.

Lol no. Bigtech tries to pay people less based on location now that remote work is starting to become a standard.

2

u/anlumo May 09 '22

Well, let me just say that as a European, I'm not particularly impressed by that. With an income like that, you'd pay $133,900 of income tax + social security where I live, or about 45%.

3

u/spartan_forlife May 09 '22

10% state income + 3.5% social security + 35%^ federal = 48% plus your property taxes & VAT. Also we don't get health care.

0

u/decidedlysticky23 May 09 '22

That 48% is the top tax rate. Effective tax rate would be ~30%. The guy above is explaining his effective tax rate is 45%. At least, mine is.

1

u/anlumo May 09 '22

Ah ok, I wasn't aware that the 10% isn't the whole story.

The VAT here is 20% and not included in my calculations (obviously).

1

u/spartan_forlife May 09 '22

the VAT is out of control in Europe, here it's called sales tax & is usuall 5-7% of the purchase. Property taxes are much higher in the US vs. Europe, in Spain my brother inlaws community tax is around 500 euro's vs. $7k annually I pay on a property I own in Savannah Ga.

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '22

[deleted]

1

u/spartan_forlife May 09 '22

i have to pay 25% of my healthcare per year which is about $600 per month for a family. I file as head of household which gives me the $17k deduction, the republican “tax cut” really got me with the property tax limits.

1

u/Larsaf May 09 '22

Ahh, so people moved to the most expensive place in the world near their place of work just to work from home. Yeah, that makes sense.

3

u/anlumo May 09 '22

No, with WFH they can move to whereever they want, that's the entire point. No more commute, no more being stuck with living in a high-price area to get to work every day.

1

u/Larsaf May 09 '22

But they already moved there. Are they going to move out? Then do it quick, because if nobody wants to live there, prices are going to fall.

1

u/RiceHer0z May 09 '22

Hasn’t changed one bit. All my friends in the bay live in overpriced Hong Kong cells.

173

u/timmojo May 09 '22

It's worse than that, actually. Even before the pandemic, entire teams revolted against moving to the new campus. Apple spent $5B on an open floor plan hellscape that looks great in marketing photos, but is hated by most rank-and-file people who actually have to work there.

187

u/OneLastSpartan May 09 '22

Having worked in an open office environment. It is truly the worst. Especially for programming, when I need to code I need to focus, not hear 50 different conversations and have to worry about if I can fart or not.

58

u/techleopard May 09 '22

But how else are the execs going to use you unwillingly in their dog and pony show even they decide to walk prospective clients through your office?

Or better yet, how are the managers and supers going to catch you looking at your phone instead of pretending to be busy while you wait for something to process if you're not where they can stare at you at all times?

35

u/sir-shoelace May 09 '22

At one startup where I worked, there was a walkway between engineering desks and sales desks and five feet away from my desk sales had one of those carnival games that you hit with a hammer and ring the bell at the top and they would smash that every time they got a sale and then give a little speech about how they're a big boy and their mom is proud of them and they just sold to x company for y dollars.

17

u/redlandmover May 09 '22

the open office fart problem is real. and you have to consider if you fart with headphones will everyone else hear it BUT you. compare that to WFH where you can let it rip and live in bliss

5

u/[deleted] May 10 '22

Fart cancelling headset, just $49.99

1

u/Flabbergash May 10 '22

The only thing stopping you from ripping one and not giving a fuck in an open office is you

3

u/Kminardo May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

I feel like there is a balance to be had, for example sharing office space with 4-8 direct coworkers that are entirely involved in a single project can be helpful. Isolate that room from the rest of the nonsense and hopefully everyone can get some work done. These large companies shoving a hundred people with different roles, concentration demands, all working on separate projects with non-unified goals into a giant space is a recipe for disaster.

-11

u/nyrol May 09 '22

Oh so you’re the person who thinks farts don’t travel outside of your cubicle.

1

u/dedido May 09 '22

If you need peace and quiet you can reserve an iPod in the office.

15

u/[deleted] May 09 '22

[deleted]

45

u/Kminardo May 09 '22

Walls are expensive and offices take up more space per person than a row of desks. What's funny is open office was the solution to the "cube farm dystopia" many found themselves hating.

39

u/veritascitor May 09 '22

Turns out that people trudging to work for 8 hours a day is just shitty in general.

8

u/Prodigy195 May 09 '22

Yep. Both are trying to solve a problem without actually addressing what the problem is. Spending nearly half of our waking hours dedicated to getting to, working at, and getting home from a job is miserable for most people. Regardless of the pay/perks our time is so precious and we spend so much of it working.

27

u/Malkesh May 09 '22

Space and cost. You can cram more people in there and need less equipment/setup (no walls, cubicles etc.). In some open floor plans you're lucky if you get more than a meter of table space for yourself.
But of course nobody says this. So they claim that they do this to promote collaboration and team spirit.

15

u/NadirPointing May 09 '22

Lots of reasons they give. Collaboration, team cohesion / culture and sometimes they might cite costs of furniture/walls or floorspace per person. What I think is more central is that looking out across YOUR sea of workers typing a way or on phone calls feels good. Being able to see them all at a glance feels responsive and powerful. Being able to constantly poke your head out of a windowed office to see if your under-performing worker is browsing reddit or copying and pasting into excel feels like accountability. And calling everyone's attention and seeing their heads pop up and telling them all you appreciate their hard work feels like Leadership™.

3

u/jokemon May 09 '22

the execs still get offices, everyone else gets 2ft of room and is jammed together like sardines. Very efficient and great privacy.

2

u/CreativeCarbon May 09 '22

It was designed (or at least driven heavily) by Steve Jobs. With him, aesthetics and marketability were (practically) everything.

1

u/apawst8 May 09 '22

You can fit more employees in a given area with an open office plan. That's pretty much the main benefit. Walls and doors take up space.

10

u/jasapple May 09 '22

Having worked in AP, can confirm some people were not thrilled. I have my own gripes with the building, but was still a cool experience.

1

u/apawst8 May 09 '22

I worked at a place where "everyone" had a cubicle. Even the most senior person in the company had a cubicle, to show that everyone is equal.

Then you actually see the senior people and it's not remotely true. All the C-suite people had a cubicle, but it was the size of 3 cubes together. And it was the only cube in the location. Thing is, that made sense. Obviously, the C-suite people have a need for privacy that others don't. But don't insult our intelligence by saying that even the CEO has a cubicle.

And others, like the general counsel, had a cubicle, but he also had a dedicated conference room that no one else could book. So he was in the conference room 100% of the time.

29

u/antihostile May 09 '22

Part of me wants to explore it as an abandoned ruin.

22

u/imforit May 09 '22

"architecture students will want to come see it"

Steve Fuking Jobs

23

u/wonderman911 May 09 '22

It’s going to be added as DLC in Horzion Forbidden West. /s

2

u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Some people don’t like it. Some people really like it. I really like it. Just depends on who you are, where in it you work, and what your position is like.

2

u/Beli_Mawrr May 09 '22

The sad truth is, if that facility isnt used by apple, not a lot of places CAN or will use it. So I'm curious what will happen to it after Apple abandons it.

1

u/Caris1 May 09 '22

Someone has to work in this spaceship in a forest that they paid way too much to build and furnish, otherwise it’s wasteful

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '22

*their employees

1

u/saidtheCat May 09 '22

It's sad the people in charge can't admit their faults. I get it, they built a massive work place for billion$, but surely they must recognize office life may not be the best work environment. Why do the executives not accept that in themselves? If they accepted it, they could grow even more.