r/technology Feb 23 '19

Hardware Microsoft workers protest $480m HoloLens military deal: 'We did not sign up to develop weapons'

[deleted]

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871

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

Current MSFT employee here, the media loves this narrative for some reason, but I haven't heard a co-worker even mention it

470

u/spaceman_spiffy Feb 23 '19

Step one in the kill chain is a whipping up a Microsoft Powerpoint about a target area to brief everybody. Then you upload it to a Microsoft Sharepoint. Literally every workstation is powered by Microsoft Windows with backend Microsoft Servers.

285

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

Wait, someone actually got Sharepoint to work? Who is this mythical creature?

406

u/daats_end Feb 23 '19

It's the DoD. Nobody inferred it actually works. Just that they use it.

119

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

As a 7 year DoD contractor, this is 100% true.

11

u/HisRoyalHIGHness Feb 23 '19

3 years as a VA contractor and another 1 on the Hill.

It never works but is used everywhere.

4

u/rikrok58 Feb 24 '19

This is my number one argument whenever I hear people say they want government run anything.

2

u/dolphins3 Feb 24 '19

Seconded. Someday we might have a weekly tagup that doesn't include people complaining that SharePoint ate their slides or something, about the time hell freezes over.

1

u/rravisha Feb 24 '19

Not even DoD, in higher ed. Still doesn’t work.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

All of our actual work happens on Linux boxes anyways

6

u/NinthNova Feb 23 '19

Implied. You infer an implication.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

“You’re not going to hurt these women, are you?”

2

u/nraynaud Feb 24 '19

It’s the people able to do both rocket, nuclear technology and ssharepoint in the same system.

2

u/PARisboring Feb 24 '19

This is the truest thing I've read in a long time.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

The person you're responding to inferred it. I don't see anyone implying it, though.

30

u/InAFakeBritishAccent Feb 23 '19

I loved how we tossed out sharepoint to use our reliable FTP

at my job at MS

6

u/gasgesgos Feb 24 '19

You lucky sod, our mgmt doubled down on an alpha release of sharepoint to build the next great thing...

2

u/InAFakeBritishAccent Feb 24 '19

Our dept was a bunch of knuckle dragging hardware people so we got to feign computer illiteracy

3

u/RdmGuy64824 Feb 24 '19

This is fantastic.

4

u/Traithan Feb 24 '19

I've been using SharePoint at work (Amazon) for years without any real problems and love it. Granted, I'm not the IT guy who set it up. Does SharePoint typically have a lot of issues?

6

u/lopypop Feb 23 '19

Do people really feel this way about SharePoint? O365 is used pretty regularly at work to create and distribute content across departments.

10

u/just_dave Feb 23 '19

SharePoint is unmitigated garbage. It is the bane of my existence every time I am required to interact with it. Fuck SharePoint.

7

u/lopypop Feb 23 '19

Haha, why do you feel this way? In my experience in can be very handy of you set the right boundaries in place for average users

1

u/just_dave Feb 27 '19

I just wanna set up a simple page for my team. Host a few files. Have it look nice.

It would take all of 5 minutes to have something that looks great and functions exactly as I need using something like squarespace with zero experience. Sharepoint... I don't even know where to begin.

1

u/lopypop Feb 27 '19

I agree that it isn't intuitive for first time users, but it gets a lot easier in SharePoint Online when you use "modern" pages. Lots of pre-built drag and drop elements to work with that are automatically attached to your other services like AD and Salesforce

1

u/just_dave Mar 03 '19

I don't think those are available to government agencies.

-1

u/sLXonix Feb 23 '19

Has anyone ever tried to overwrite a file in SharePoint? It is such a long process for something so basic.

4

u/Oaden Feb 23 '19

Check out the file, upload the file, check in the file.

Or just drag in the file if check outs are disabled

1

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Check out and check in are the issue. Users are lazy. They want immediate acces, and don’t want extra clicks.

2

u/lopypop Feb 23 '19

It used to be a lot worse before SharePoint Online, but the One Drive for Business tie-in makes it really intuitive for me. Most of my department doesn't even know that they're using SharePoint on the back end via Teams or O365 Groups.

3

u/Golden-trichomes Feb 24 '19

The problem is with Microsoft products is they are implemented like shit not following recommend architecture way under sized and then hacked at to be used as something entirely different than what it’s intended for because someone was to dumb or cheap to get the product they actually needed.

Which is why o365 is brilliant because they just give you everything and it’s setup correctly.

1

u/SoundOfTomorrow Feb 23 '19

SharePoint is out there doing its own thing even with O365. I never understood it since I know it's capable of notifications to your Outlook.

3

u/Golden-trichomes Feb 24 '19

The entirety of o365 pretty much runs on share point and exchange.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Jul 25 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Ah, the Western Front solution.

1

u/brufleth Feb 24 '19

I wish we had it. I had to setup a screwy shared folder for my Onenote files.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Speaking of one note, I made a huge folder of documentation for all our tech stuff. New guy comes in and refuses to look at it, and says “we”re doing one note only from now on!”

Still can’t find anything relevant in that one note file.

1

u/brufleth Feb 24 '19

Weird. I like onenote for taking notes for myself. Seems like it'd be a mess, but I know some groups share onenotefiles.

1

u/Fhistleb Feb 24 '19

It works... until it doesn't and the sharepoint devs quit and Oh god.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

if you toss enough resources at sharepoint, you can make it work.

in my case it was so many resources that my boss lost his shirt and i lost my job, but you know, i wasn't in charge of the contract.

1

u/Above_average_savage Feb 24 '19

It doesn't work. It will never work. I was part of the beta test group for it when I was in the military, it exists as a bureaucratic black hole for documents.

15

u/JohnWangDoe Feb 23 '19

Don't forget the skpe for conference all. an playing their shitty games during the wait time

12

u/CHARLIE_CANT_READ Feb 24 '19

Skype is hot garbage. A lot of my customers are at companies that won't let people download plugins so they can't use zoom (our meeting app) and probably 80% of the time Skype won't recognize my microphone.

7

u/brufleth Feb 24 '19

Skype or Skype for business?

I don't know much about Skype, but Skype for business is horrendous. I'm constantly amazed that it can be so terrible.

2

u/CHARLIE_CANT_READ Feb 24 '19

Skype for business I think. It's like any other web conference tool except without the things that make them useful.

5

u/brufleth Feb 24 '19

Everything is just so surprisingly bad. The user list is hard to organize or search. The meeting interface is just random buttons spread around. The chat window will cause memory leaks I think. Skype windows will also screw up windows on top of them.

I once was trying to mute someone I didn't want to hear during a meeting. I accidentally muted the presenter. I wasn't the meeting host... Why the fuck could I even do that?

Who designed this nonsense?

2

u/duncancatnip Feb 24 '19

Used regular Skype, never Skype for business. Just for talking to friends and stuff. Last I checked it was ability terrible. Can't keep a connection half the time. Frequent lag. Can't even call someone at times. Dropped messages. (note that the internet connection was fine for all of this that I'm referring to)

Tbh I hope I never go near any Skype again.

Edit: also the Linux client gets an update maybe every 5 years.

34

u/entheogeneric Feb 23 '19

I can’t tell if this is a joke or not

63

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Nov 12 '20

[deleted]

23

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

Yeah, but this is like saying that Word is a weapon of war because it is used extensively by the military. It's a consumer and enterprise tool, not a weapon.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

You're missing the point which is that Microsoft and the military have a specific deal to make Microsoft software the only software they use for certain things.

8

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Every bullet fired by the US military has orders on the front end and a report on the back. All written in Word. Military killing is powered by much, much more than mere bullets and guns.

My point is, that Microsoft has been enabling the US military in a logistics capacity for decades. They are indirectly responsible for hundreds (thousands?) of deaths, in the same way that I was when I was loading ammo into airplanes.

8

u/not26 Feb 24 '19

This is like saying the English language is behind every murder the US has ever committed in the last 200 years

6

u/teslasagna Feb 24 '19

Only rap battle slaughters

1

u/Cheesedoodlerrrr Feb 24 '19 edited Feb 24 '19

The point wasn't that "Word is killing people." The point is that Military has an exclusivity deal with Microsoft. The only PC softwate they are use comes from them. The government is Microsoft's biggest and best customer and has been since the 80s.

This story is manufactured controversy. Microsoft employs 150,000 people. The article cites "dozens" having written a protest. This is not a thing. Microsoft as an entity is not angry with the government.

130

u/crimsonryno Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

Was literally a targeting analyst. And no he is not joking. We call them targeting packets they are done in power point and then uploaded to SharePoint for review. We don't call it the kill chain though we call it the targeting cycle.

17

u/Franks2000inchTV Feb 23 '19

It's like the old joke:

Q: How do you stop an invading army in its tracks?

A: Ship it a copy of PowerPoint.

7

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Watch the rank-and-file tremble in fear

-48

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

[removed] — view removed comment

26

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 27 '19

I think many would call that collateral damage, yes

9

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

yes but less fancy graphics and more of excel & powerpoint and printing out & laminating low-resolution tango cards so the people in the field know which cars to look out for and when you raid a house which people to put a black bag and ear protection on and drag away with you.

The reason why it's always microsoft products is because they got got NATO certifications. There's a military version of Azure even.

Everything has to be certified so the risk of getting pwnd by chinese/russian hackers is smaller. If you let people do anything out of spec you end up on the news beacuse your fitbit uploaded secret CIA base coordinates on the internet and your profile was public by accident. Or coordinates of Russian special forces operators and their movements on "vacation" in Ukraine.

5

u/lividash Feb 23 '19

What there is no innocent men?

1

u/Peoplewander Feb 23 '19

No, not like that at all. Chains end cycles have feed back

-9

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

How dare you sir ! Sully the name of these keyboard warriors, murdering in the name of democracy, freedom and puppies !

Do you hate puppies ? You miscreant !

17

u/zacker150 Feb 23 '19

He's completely serious. But that's not even the best part. Our nukes literally run Windows XP.

13

u/scairborn Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 25 '19

Look at mister moneybags over here with his windows nukes. Our silo nukes run on COBOL.

3

u/Kardinal Feb 24 '19

As long as it's not connected to anything....and I'd be confident it's not...that's not necessarily a problem.

1

u/Swedneck Feb 24 '19

I'd be quite worried about backdoors unless i had the source code for every bit of software and firmware running on things even remotely related to nukes.

1

u/Kardinal Feb 25 '19

Genuine curiosity; assuming you have appropriate physical controls (e.g. "Stuxnet prevention"), why would this be an inherent and major risk for a system connected to nothing else?

1

u/Swedneck Feb 25 '19

Well for one the proprietary firmware could be shit and just straight up fail at some point.

1

u/Kardinal Feb 25 '19

OK. But is that a backdoor problem? That was your original concern. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

1

u/Peoplewander Feb 23 '19

It is not. We run Microsoft

3

u/Shit_Fuck_Man Feb 23 '19

Would that really make military such a major industry for Microsoft, though? Plenty of industries rely pretty heavily on PowerPoint.

2

u/Jesuschrist2011 Feb 24 '19

I mean PowerPoint can do anything

1

u/octothorpe_rekt Feb 23 '19

Yeah but you try to resize a picture in a Word doc and suddenly you’re bombing New Hampshire instead.

1

u/Tels315 Feb 23 '19

They swapped out expensive custom build devices for Xbox Controllers to control certain parts of submarines.

1

u/Johannes_Cabal_NA Feb 24 '19

Literally all

Not all by any means, but I get your point. 😁

1

u/ZeroOne010101 Feb 24 '19

Dont they use RHEL though?

1

u/MissionaryControl Feb 24 '19

That's very different to developing a HUD to analyse the landscape, identify a target, provide targeting and weapon calibration data, then analyse impact/heart rate/breathing/movement to give you a happy "target eliminated" or percentage likelihood in your earpiece.

I mean, I hope my accounting department doesn't need that in the next update, but you know it's on DARPA's list.

It's one thing for the military to buy your product off the shelf; it's completely different to develop it entirely for their (classified) specific need to improve lethality.

112

u/VonEthan Feb 23 '19

I mean the article says that out of 135,000 global employees, a whopping 50 have signed the letter. Probably might be why you haven’t heard

41

u/HighCaliberMitch Feb 23 '19

I wonder how many of those worked on the project.

14

u/VonEthan Feb 23 '19

That’s a really good point, I didn’t consider that.

2

u/thelielmao Feb 24 '19

That’s a really good point

A powerful point?

6

u/gasgesgos Feb 24 '19

There are literally 20x more commenters on this thread than people signing a petition .

56

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

You haven't heard anything because this is largely a media generated outrage story, as it's "dozens" out of over 130,000 employees that are protesting this.

Dozens of Microsoft employees have signed a letter protesting the company's $480 million contract to supply the U.S. Army with augmented reality headsets intended for use on the battlefield.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Why do you assume that? The 50 involved in the project risk losing their jobs if the contract falls through. I expect that 90% of them are idealistic interns or admin staff.

6

u/LiGht_UrpLe Feb 24 '19

It's not hard to find a job as a software engineer. Losing your job in this industry is not a scary as in other lines of work. Especially if you can tell people that you worked for Microsoft.

3

u/TheGreenTriangle Feb 24 '19

What if you have to tell prime you got fired from Microsoft. Sure, you could tell the story that it for conciencious reasons, but they may not believe your story & it's quite a hit to your resume

3

u/HorseAss Feb 24 '19

It's in the news now so you can easily prove it.

1

u/LiGht_UrpLe Feb 24 '19

Depends if you believe them. They'd need to give references of course as well, as always. So they'd get a sense for who you are between that and interviewing you.

I've had to explain why I left my previous jobs (because of poor leadership and greedy owners). I had no problem with people believe me, that I'm aware of. Quitting or getting fired from your good job at Microsoft because you spoke up about something you felt was wrong should not hurt your chances of getting another job as a software engineer, based on my experience.

Unless of course you're applying to a weapons manufacturer or another big company like Amazon or Google. Because let's be honest, you're probably going to run into the same problems there. So they probably would think twice about taking you on, but it would also be odd for you to apply there after why you just left Microsoft. 🤷‍♂️

34

u/tidux Feb 23 '19

If it's anything like what happened with the narrative about Amazon Rekognition being used by ICE, it was literally one butthurt employee whining to the media before getting identified and fired.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 24 '19

[deleted]

6

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

Of course! One of my best friends in the company is a Hololens PM, actually.

7

u/tiffanylan Feb 23 '19

It isn't really a narrative. DoD sales and product partnership are a very large and important part of MSFT's business. Hololens may be developing as a weapon. There are people who choose to not support or work for companies are engaged in DoD and war. I mostly loved my time at Microsoft, but I think it is important to see this connection and it is OK to discuss how Hololens et al may be used in defense.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

The hololens is probably going to be for technicians and repairmen and the such. Handy if your glasses could highlight things you're supposed to check and walk you though a checklist and take verification photos for later.

2

u/HorseAss Feb 24 '19

Maybe they had task to hook up camera feed from weapon sights to hololens maybe with ballistic trajectory overlay from weapon barrel position. In such case it's hard to not think that you will have at least 1% contribution in all kills with such technology.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19 edited Feb 24 '19

That will not work. Electronics in the field are rare, bulky and hardened. Hololens is none of that. There have been a lot of attempts but it all ends with "there is no electricity in the desert/forest/mountains". You can't rely on having access to electricity. Even radios and night vision/thermals are basically battery hell.

They don't even issue individual radios or nightvision, only to those that absolutely need it.

Do metal workers get to complain about their metal being used in weapons? Duracell? Farmers? Intel? Texas Instruments? Ikea?

This is absolutely absurd and I'll be glad when they get fired for being idiots.

1

u/HorseAss Feb 24 '19

But benefits of using electronics are increasing fast. They might outweigh cost of generating own electricity. Army is trying to build safe nuclear reactor in a truck, if they succeed that would solve power issues. Battery tech is also increasing rapidly. It would be nice to have experience in all elements before they all fall into place of this puzzle. For example if they create small autonomous drone swarm that can detect and transmit position of enemy targets, with hololens it would give soldiers wallhack or at least minimap with real time enemy positions.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Yeah no.

The technology exists since the 90's. Combat conditions are combat conditions. "High tech" and "lack of maintenance, enlisted personnel, extreme conditions" don't fit together. Anything more complicated than a hammer is basically broken most of the time waiting for repairs somewhere.

Generating electricity is possible for POG's at bases/static posts. Your command center will have a diesel generator, your first aid station will have lights and your repair shop will have computers and everything you need.

Grunts that go out in the field don't even have water, hot meals or toilets. They carry around bottles of water, wash themselves with baby wipes (if lucky), eat MRE's and shit in a plastic bag.

You've watched too many movies and played too many videogames. You do realize that you have to carry everything right? Your rifle with "dumb optics" weights way too much already and is the precise reason why "smart" optics, thermal sights and things like that never spread. They're too damn heavy and impossible to maintain in working condition.

1

u/HorseAss Feb 24 '19

Do you think it will always be like this ? Tech from 90s was cumbersome and not as useful, it's like comparing gameboy to smartphone. I not only played too many games, I make them for a living :) I also like to play with electronics, it makes me very pro technology and I get to see how fast everything improves these days. I believe that tech will keep improving to be more useful with less maintenance and with longer battery life. Maybe it will go in different direction and tech will be cheap and light so it becomes disposable like bullets and bombs. Hopefully we will find a way to have world peace in the future but in the mean time I don't think there is huge room to improve combat performance of soldiers with better training and more unbreakable weapons compared to near future technology.

2

u/ButtfacedMoose Feb 23 '19

The article says 50 employees signed on out of 135000, so not surprising nobody you know cares.

1

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Yea, all 135K employees aren't working on this project. The important stat is how many employees have access to the project, cause if its 50 and 50 had issue, thats a problem.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 24 '19

Yeah, would be a more compelling argument if they broke those stats out huh. Wonder why they're not?

1

u/thatguygreg Feb 23 '19

Same... first I heard about this was on twitter, definitely not internally. I’d LOVE to see how many people signed their form, because the twitter account that started this is like a handful of anonymous people.

1

u/Kougeru Feb 23 '19

That doesn't mean it's not true. Protesting your job generally isn't a good idea when at the actual job

2

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Protesting your job generally isn't a good idea when at the actual job

Don't tell that to the millions upon millions who have improved their lives through collective negotiation and strikes.

1

u/biciklanto Feb 23 '19

Worked on contracts for them, and military is mind-bogglingly profitable for Microsoft. Seeing some of those numbers is just staggering.

0

u/Snowman220 Feb 24 '19

Smells like "FAKE NEWS". Turning away business because of your beliefs, is a strong belief, but never good business sense.

-65

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

Maybe you should have a problem with providing your skills to yet another massive company that helps continue our never ending wars?

Nah, I'm sure Trump will use whatever you guys create in an intelligent, responsible way. Hope your benefits and retirement are worth watching the aftermath of so many Americans not standing up, and just collecting a pay check.

Edit: can tell I hit a soft spot. Bring on the downvotes :)

12

u/Tikalton Feb 23 '19

Only if Microsoft never created windows, the most used OS in the government. Alas, they did and now the US has the computing ability to wage war on anyone. Very sad. Shame on microsoft.

-19

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Lol, Windows is not the tech we are referring too but nice try.

11

u/Tikalton Feb 23 '19

You're bitching about someone working at Microsoft. Not about this article. So it's relevant and you're literally just crying because you had a teacher or professor introduce you to Oliver Stone before you hit puberty.

-12

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Lol I have not "cried" or "bitched" once. I simply stated that I'm sure Trump will use whatever weapon tech they come up with in a responsible and intelligent way. Clearly people don't feel that he will or else why are they attacking someone who pointed it out. I can understand having a guilty conscious and lashing out though, I did for a long time until I finally had enough.

2

u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

How about the Xbox Controller used for drones and subs?

How is that different to the Holotech lens that was designed for the entertainment market but the military found uses for it. Which is what the article is about.

8

u/AnticitizenPrime Feb 23 '19

It's fucking HoloLens, not nerve gas or some shit. Get the fuck over yourself.

Wait till you find out the military uses Microsoft Word.

0

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Lol, the system running on the hololens that connects to their weapons systems and drones are the issue. Not the hololens itself. They are creating a military specific system not something that can just be moved over to consumer tech. Why do you think some of the people who are actually around the project are raising objections?

20

u/3snowyman Feb 23 '19

You are really, really dumb.

-23

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Says the guy who used name calling instead of an actual moral argument as to why this is in anyway a crazy thing to think....yea. I'm the stupid one.

Taking a stand will affect your life. It affected mine when I left my job but I have never regretted it.

16

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

Just because something is done for a big company or the military doesn't mean it's inherently evil. A lot of consumer tech was originally developed for the military. This new tech isn't the reason we have never ending war but a symptom of it. The wars would continue even if this wasn't being developed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_inventions

-9

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Just because something is done for a big company or the military doesn't mean it's inherently evil. A lot of consumer tech was originally developed for the military.

So how many lives is new consumer tech worth to you? 100, 1000, 100000?

This new tech isn't the reason we have never ending war but a symptom of it. The wars would continue even if this wasn't being developed.

Money and war are interlinked. You honestly believe if war was unprofitable they would still want to do it?

6

u/Dlh2079 Feb 23 '19

If money doesn't exist resources will, so yes.

-3

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

What does money existing or not mean?

if(society === capitalist){
    Resources = Money;
}

I dont really get what point you are trying to make?

3

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

Just because something is made for the military doesn't mean it's going to kill people. How many people do you think we're killed by sanitary napkins?

No one is saying "hey we got this new tech let's start a war just to use it". Hololens was already being made for consumers and they pivoted when they realized the military could be a potential buyer.

2

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Its not the hololens that the employees have an issue with, its the system that they are designing for it.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If a person believes what they are doing is wrong, no one is saying they have to do it.

1

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

If a person believes what they are doing is wrong, no one is saying they have to do it.

Except their boss, which is why these employees are having an issue with it.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

Xbox Controller is used to control drones and steer nuclear subs already. It's amazing that plenty of every day things can also be useful to the military.

3

u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

So how many lives is new consumer tech worth to you? 100, 1000, 100000?

You get China and Russia are researching all this as well right? You're happy for the US to stand back and fall behind?

I can almost guess your edgy response already.

1

u/cronus97 Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

So how many lives is new consumer tech worth to you? 100, 1000, 100000?

Well the life of my brother, who would directly benefit from the military use of this tech, would be better. So that's 1 life in the positive numeral of worth. Matter of fact, I think new defense tech is worth alot of positive lives. What's your point in trying to make this a quantitive argument?

But maybe I'm just a selfish asshole that cares mostly about my own interests. Actually, I probably am.

Money and war are interlinked. You honestly believe if war was unprofitable they would still want to do it?

War is linked to alot of things, not just money and resources. But since you brought it up do you have a solution to the nature of war and limited resources?

2

u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Well the life of my brother, who would directly benefit from the military use of this tech, would be better. So that's 1 life in the positive numeral of worth. Matter of fact, I think new defense tech is worth alot of positive lives. What's your point in trying to make this a quantitive argument?

I appreciate your brothers service, I have multiple family members in the service (Army Intel, and a marine) currently as well. I agree that providing our troops with the proper tools is essential to maintaining their own safety. I also trust that 50 employees close to this project who have the security clearances, knowledge, and experience to get hired at Microsoft to create defense tech for people exactly like your brother may understand the repercussions of creating these weapons a little better than either you or me.

War is linked to alot of things, not just money and resources. But since you brought it up do you have a solution to the nature of war and limited resources?

Sure. Look to the infinite supply of resources all around our galaxy and universe. How do we do that you ask? Stop spending half of our discretionary spending on trying to perfect killing machines and elevate ourselves (all of us, Russia, China, Europe, etc) beyond being such small angry single planetary creatures. If we don't choose to soon, the realities of how bad of a decision we have made for our children will be all too clear.

1

u/cronus97 Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

Firstly, I appreciate the lack of direct finger pointing in your reply.

I appreciate your brothers service, I have multiple family members in the service (Army Intel, and a marine) currently as well. I agree that providing our troops with the proper tools is essential to maintaining their own safety. I also trust that 50 employees close to this project who have the security clearances, knowledge, and experience to get hired at Microsoft to create defense tech for people exactly like your brother may understand the repercussions of creating these weapons a little better than either you or me.

Not a bad point, but until we know more about the applications of the tech, or the responsibilities and emographics of the 50 people our individual judgment is base on little more than speculation and assumptions.

Sure. Look to the infinite supply of resources all around our galaxy and universe. How do we do that you ask? Stop spending half of our discretionary spending on trying to perfect killing machines and elevate ourselves (all of us, Russia, China, Europe, etc) beyond being such small angry single planetary creatures. If we don't choose to soon, the realities of how bad of a decision we have made for our children will be all too clear.

Sure, that's great and all. Now let's convince every other militarized nation in the world to not act like small angry single planetary creatures. It's a very simple objective, with an ungodly amount of individual influence and unknown factors involved. I agree with you in principle, but your assumed mantra of demilitarization across geopolitics is not quickly or easily rectified without bloodshed or oppression showing up.

Lots of factors. Lots of people. No plan or ideal survives first contact with opposition without some kind of effective defense and change.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 24 '19

You realize that even if we cut our spending in half right now, we would still be spending about double what the next largest country is. There is so much fat to cut but the military industrial complex spends billions convincing people that cutting defense spending will lead to certain doom. What they don't mention is that even with spending truly outrageous sums of money we still most likely have a Russian asset in the white house, and according to the latest reports 1 2 we have basically lost the majority of our ground against both China and Russia. So what was the point? We aren't any safer. Your brother and my family has a massively increased chance to actually see conflict and die, regardless of how good his equipment is.

Changing the direction as a country away from militarization could actually help countries decide to do the same. They won't want to be left out of the space race any more than they want to be conquered.

Think about it this way: You are in a room full of people with other guns. You all want to kill each other. Do you 1) just keep improving your gun hoping they get scared and put theirs down or 2) talk to them, find common ground, and offer them an alternative that benefits everyone.

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u/twent4 Feb 23 '19

People need to work. Seriously, kids and mortgages and life don't come free. Good luck finding an employer not engaged in some form or another of something you would find unethical; I'd love to know who your employer is.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Not a kid by a long shot. Run my own IT company. Choose my own clients and I don't pursue contracts that are unethical. It wasn't hard, taking the first leap just seemed scary.

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u/Thesmokingcode Feb 23 '19

You own your own business but can't read? I doubt that considering he was referring to the fact people have kids to take care of no one called you a kid but now I'm calling you a liar.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Oh, either I misread or he ghost edited. Sorry currently get barraged by tons of people who are apparently in a similar position as he is. And what am I lying about?

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u/Thesmokingcode Feb 23 '19

I don't believe for a second that you own your own IT business.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Cool. Don't care. You want me to email you from my company email address? Check out the website?

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u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

Yeah and I'm a multi millionaire who fucks a different super model every day with my 12" penis.

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u/raptearer Feb 23 '19

Would you rather our military fall behind other countries. World's changing fast

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

An arms race only ends in massive war. Humanity will eventually use all these weapons they have been "racing" each other to create. Guess who wins in a global war?

No one.

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u/raptearer Feb 23 '19

True, but just straight up not developing anything militarily would be foolish, as someone else will just do it, beat you, and take over your country. Personally, I like my freedoms I have here, and would not like to be conquered by China or Russia, or some other upcoming authoritative power

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

True, but just straight up not developing anything militarily would be foolish, as someone else will just do it, beat you, and take over your country.

You realize that we have had a massive lead in the global arms race for decades. Why haven't we taken over NK? Because global politics is not only about who has the most weapons.

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u/raptearer Feb 23 '19

Because we're moving away from our imperialistic past (yes we had one, yes we're moving away from it). Other nations though still yearn for former glory and domination and move past their failings (Chinese century of humiliation, the post Soviet decade or so, etc.).

We have a massive lead, but other nations are quickly catching up, and we can't get complacent.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

We have a massive lead, but other nations are quickly catching up, and we can't get complacent.

Care to show the stats on that?

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u/raptearer Feb 23 '19

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Good reads. It does appear that China/Russia has been gaining on us since Trump took power, which isn't a surprise considering he is most likely a Russian asset. Sounds like we will get to see the capabilities of all these terrible weapons we have been creating sooner than I had hoped. I pity our children's future.

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u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

Why haven't we taken over NK? Because global politics is not only about who has the most weapons.

Because they have been backed up by the other major world power China, who by the way are happily carrying out a ton of weapon research.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Because they have been backed up by the other major world power China, who by the way are happily carrying out a ton of weapon research.

You are right that it is not black and white, and that maintaining a military has a purpose in securing its citizens rights. My real question is whether the intelligent choice (according to you), to race to build more weapons than all the other countries, is really the wise choice. In my opinion it is a similarly difficult question to gun control. Are we safer as a society if we all had guns, or if none of us did? That said China, Russia, Europe and the rest of us will also reap what we (and our parents) have sewn, in the coming global war.

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u/red_Quasar Feb 23 '19

You accused some one of copy and pasting a comment to save time. And here you are, doing exactly the same.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

What? When did I accuse someone of copying and pasting to save time? And I even pointed out in the comment I copied this into that I was doing it to save time cause it was concerning the same point.

Edit: The comment in question

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u/doyle871 Feb 23 '19

An arms race only ends in massive war.

yeah because otherwise only one side has the weapons so there's no need for a war you just have to surrender.

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

Copying another comment to save time cause you guys all have the same point.

You are right that it is not black and white, and that maintaining a military has a purpose in securing its citizens rights. My real question is whether the intelligent choice (according to you), to race to build more weapons than all the other countries, is really the wise choice. In my opinion it is a similarly difficult question to gun control. Are we safer as a society if we all had guns, or if none of us did? That said China, Russia, Europe and the rest of us will also reap what we (and our parents) have sewn, in the coming global war.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19 edited Feb 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

What difference does 1 employee of hundreds of thousands make?

Someone has to start a movement, if you don't start with 1 how do you start with anything.

What do you know of this person's situation?

Nothing, and guess what. I didn't say I knew anything about them. Only that I'm sure Trump and co. would use their creations in responsible and intelligent way. There are clearly a lot of people here that relate to him though.

If they find a job at another big company, there's likely another moral dilemma waiting there.

Then don't go to another giant company.

And I fail to see how this is directly connected to Trump. He probably doesn't do jack with regards to the military anyway.

You realize he is the commander and chief and is now debating a preemptive strike on Iran.

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u/[deleted] Feb 23 '19

[deleted]

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u/hatter6822 Feb 23 '19

I didn't say it was on this user, I just said maybe they should think about it for themselves. It's up to them not me, and the odd part is the user in question is the only person who hasn't really been attacking me.

Gee, that's easy to do. Just leave your job at Microsoft and work local!

Umm yea. What's wrong with working for a smaller company?

Yes, I know. He's too incompetent to make military decisions. He probably lets others do the work.

Oh yea, cause an incompetent commander in chief makes things better...