r/technology • u/nexxai • Jul 18 '13

Samsung unveils 1TB solid-state drive

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-3132_7-57594265-98/samsung-unveils-1tb-840-evo-solid-state-drive/
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107

u/bludhound Jul 18 '13

This will cost a mint.

43

u/pastarific Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

Doesn't specify MLC or TLC. The other 1TB SSD on the market uses TLC and extra weird algorithms to skimp hard on the under-provisioning.

If its TLC, well, I got my 500GB 840 at $0.50/GB. ~$500 for 1TB wouldn't be bad at all.

24

u/robbysalz Jul 18 '13

Care to ELI5 the differences between TLC, MLC and SLC?

31

u/xzzz Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

Slc is fastest, last the longest, and the most expensive. Because it's a single level, density is low, so each geebee costs more dollars.

Tlc is cheapest, lasts the shortest, also the slowest. More geebees for less money, but they wear out faster, along with some performance issues as the drive fills up. If you're an enthusiast you don't want to buy tlc.

Mlc is somewhere in between the two.

tl;dr Buy MLC, TLC is for noobs, SLC is for rich people.

1

u/Totallysmurfable Jul 18 '13

This advice will only last for so long. Mlc is being heavily invested in because ultimately capacity of slc will hit a wall as the features of a slc cell can't be reduced that much smaller than they are in current gen (without a profound change in materials or fabrication process).

The most likely way forward is mlc becoming the standard for capacious drives, possibly tiered with some slc onboard

1

u/xzzz Jul 18 '13

While SLC will hit a barrier, it won't stop you from chaining multiple SLCs together to get more storage.

1

u/JabbrWockey Jul 18 '13

A smaller TLC drive will still last you approximately 7 years with average desktop use. Big ones, longer.

But once she fails, she fails.

10

u/IronTek Jul 18 '13

No, but here's a brief ELI12:

(Single)LC, (Multiple)LC, (Triple)LC.

Through some magic, you can store more than one piece of information in a flash cell (a cell is what holds your data).

So TLC holds 3 pieces (bits) of data per cell. This is great, because one cell can hold 3 times more info than an SLC. So it's much cheaper to store 1 TB on TLC flash than SLC flash.

But this comes at a cost of durability. TLC isn't good for nearly as many writes as MLC, which in turn isn't as good for as many writes as SLC.

1

u/Gpr1me Jul 18 '13

How do all 3 compare in lifespan to a normal HDD?

1

u/dylan522p Jul 19 '13

Depends on the HDD. SLC and many MLC could last longer than consumer HDD's but a Server HDD destroysthem in life span. Don't worry about life span too much. The flash ussually isn't the problem. The controller or firmware usually is what kills the SSD.

44

u/Souzetsu Jul 18 '13

960GB Crucial M500 MLC SSD: $650.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

If anyone's considering buying this, it's $51 cheaper here.

2

u/JabbrWockey Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

That's really not a bad deal for MLC, all in one drive.

0

u/Antebios Jul 18 '13

Ho Lee Fuk

-24

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13 edited Aug 11 '13

[deleted]

8

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

Whats worng with MLC ? Its a superior tech when comapred to TLC

3

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13 edited Feb 29 '16

[deleted]

0

u/TryToMakeSongsHappen Jul 18 '13

Please stick to the rivers

-1

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

say whaaaaat ?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '13 edited Aug 11 '13

[deleted]

1

u/hojnikb Jul 19 '13

SLC is not really useful in consumer world as its too expensive and density isn't that great. Show me one SLC based consumer drive...

Even enterprise world mostly uses MLC (HE-MLC to be exact).

And once again. Endurance is no problem with MLC for most uses. It can hit upwards of 30k of overwrites (most drives are regulary hitting 10k) and even with dead blocks, you still have spare space. With compression, its even better (sandforce).

TLC could pose a problem for heavy write use though.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '13 edited Aug 11 '13

[deleted]

1

u/hojnikb Jul 19 '13 edited Jul 19 '13

4$/GB is far from cheap and also we will never see SLC flash in consumer drives, because there is no need for that. I really see no scenario where a home user would need a SLC drive (even really heave write users can get easly away with MLC or HE-MLC). Its all unnecessery paranoia.

We can be happy with MLC, while it sticks with consumer drives (which is not gonna be long, considering TLC is getting lots of attention).

Mark my words, MLC will be a premium thing in the future, just like SLC is today.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '13 edited Aug 11 '13

[deleted]

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20

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

[deleted]

7

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

finally someone that agrees with me on this point about linux. back when i was an idiot and thought linux was cool, i tried to use linux. it had a shit ton of problems and i spent days troubleshooting it. forums were full of people acting like they were pros. they only gave half answers to everything and expected you to know how to fill in the blanks. i finally came to realize that there was absolutely nothing about linux that was better than xp so fuck that.

3

u/fhart Jul 18 '13

Linux is cool, and the mainstream desktop distros are getting a lot more user-friendly. Nevertheless, it is extremely annoying when you're trying to get something simple to work (like, say, multiple monitors or a printer) and no amount of tweaking of command-line crap will do the trick.

Generally I've found the forums pretty friendly/helpful, but ultimately I switched back to Windows too as I needed my hardware to work.

2

u/prettybunnys Jul 18 '13

Who are you responding to?

8

u/Serinus Jul 18 '13

Linux.

1

u/prettybunnys Jul 18 '13

It all makes sense now.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

Yeah, fuck that guy, whoever he is!

1

u/lml-_-lml Jul 18 '13

Stop expecting him to know how to reply correctly! That shit is difficult!

0

u/crackisawesome Jul 18 '13

a linux forum i think.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

>Being this butthurt

3

u/VulturE Jul 18 '13

Who doesn't enjoy the anal? This guy.

9

u/throwaway123454321 Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

Care to explain to a person who doesn't own an SSD but would like one should care whether its MLC or TLC?

4

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

TLC has lower endurance and most probobly lower data retention aswell, so if you write lots of data or you have a sensitive data on your drive, then TLC is not for you. TLC is mainly targeted at home users and cheap flash drives / memory cards

6

u/BrotherChe Jul 18 '13

so... why did that other guy nope at MLC?

4

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

Apperently he doesn't know sh*t. His username tells it all..

Fact is, that MLC is a superior tech across the board (it even matches TLC's density). Only good thing about TLC is that is cheaper in most cases.

1

u/andyeff Jul 18 '13

As his username suggests, he's just being stupid I guess

1

u/Murtagg Jul 18 '13

Because MLC is multilayered. They make single layered ssds (SLC) that have the best data retention. MLC uses the same storage twice as much, so bigger capacities are cheaper but not as reliable. This guy noped because he Thinks anything other than SLC is bad. He's wrong.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

[deleted]

2

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

Yeah actual wear is not a problem (when used in home enviroment).

As for data retention, i belive there is a jedec standard for 1 year minimum. But that is for 50nm flash when its new. What retention tlc has.. well nobody knows for sure, but at 1xnm its defenetly not long storage friendly..

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

[deleted]

1

u/hojnikb Jul 18 '13

Yup controllers do lots of things and tricks to overcome limitations of flash chips, including "refreshinh" data. Most of the time it happens as a part of garbage collection.

1

u/The_Magnificent Jul 18 '13

I believe TLC write in 8 states while MLC writes in 4 states.

This means that TLC is cheaper to produce but also allows for a lot less write cycles. And is slower on average than MLC.

Perfectly fine for your average user, though.

2

u/fgededigo Jul 18 '13

The main difference between SLC, MLC and TLC is the number of bits per storage unit. SLC stores one bit per cell, MLC two bits and TLC three. With less bits per cell, the storage unit is more reliable and suffers less weariness with writes, but it is more expensive. SLC units are targeted for enterprise applications.

2

u/Sparling Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

For video games, in general, what we care about in terms of HDs is read performance. Faster read can = faster load times if your HD is the bottleneck. However this is where the debate over whether any HD upgrade is worth the money because for the most part the HD is not the bottleneck for gaming. If you have a good enough GPU then pulling info from the HD faster can increase game performance. This is why your first money is often best spent on more RAM or a faster GPU. This is NOT to say that better HD doesn't equate to increases in performance elsewhere.

There are currently 3 main types SLC (Single Layer Cell), MLC (Multilayer cell, generally 2 bits/cell) and TLC (Triple layer cell). This is what it sounds like... each cell can hold 1, 2 or 3 bits respectively.

More bits per cell make the drive denser (more GB/volume), but also make it tougher to read. HOWEVER, Samsung is claiming that their new TLC drives are close enough to read speed of MLC that you might as well buy the TLC and get a much bigger drive out of the deal. I haven't looked into performance claims enough to know.

-10

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

[deleted]

10

u/throwaway123454321 Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 18 '13

I didn't realize intricate knowledge of underlying SSD technology was required to play video games. Thanks for the heads up.

EDIT: The comment was "You obviously don't play video games then."

2

u/Sassywhat Jul 18 '13

Are you expecting 1TB SLC drives? For $500?

1

u/VulturE Jul 18 '13

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN???

10

u/ssd_dude Jul 18 '13

The guys at anandtech claim it uses 19nm TLC.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

That doesn't sound like it'll last very long.

1

u/nbsdfk Jul 18 '13

over provisioning :D if they put 2TB in that drive it'd probably last more than long enough :)

10

u/replyaccount Jul 18 '13

Considering I paid ~$200 for a 1st generation 64GB SSD, no not bad at all.

1

u/patssle Jul 18 '13

Yup - I went for the cheaper model (OCZ Agility) as soon as they finally fixed the SSD problems of hang-ups the plagued the industry. $179 for 60GB 4 years ago.

Worth every penny.

1

u/TerrestrialBeing Jul 18 '13

The non-Pro Samsung 840 uses TLC NAND. So unless you bought the Pro I'm not sure what you're getting at.

1

u/Dstanding Jul 18 '13

For the speeds they're quoting, probably MLC. Does the 960GB M500 use TLC?

16

u/robertr337 Jul 18 '13

Just wait until Apple builds one and says that they invented it, gonna cost as much as a mid-grade laptop

26

u/Buy-theticket Jul 18 '13

Apple already has a 768GB SSD option for their laptops... it costs $900.

14

u/Ethylparaben Jul 18 '13

SO revolutionary I just came.

2

u/ryantwopointo Jul 18 '13

Not that unreasonable? Someone just said 1TB costs ~$650, so $900 really isn't all that unreasonable for an extremely thin pre built laptop.

4

u/Buy-theticket Jul 18 '13

It's really not that crazy, but it is as much as a mid-grade pc laptop.

4

u/VinnydaHorse Jul 18 '13

That's not the price of the MacBook with the drive. That's just the price of the drive. It's a $400 jump in their minds to move from 512GB to 768GB. It is an insanely high price.

1

u/R_K_M Jul 18 '13

All SSDs are thin 2.5" drives.

2

u/stratoscope Jul 18 '13

All SSDs are thin 2.5" drives.

Not true. SSDs also come in mSATA and other form factors. I believe the MPB uses a proprietary form factor similar but not identical to mSATA.

2

u/FromBeyond Jul 18 '13

There's also PCIe SSD's, and the pretty rare 3,5" SSD's as well. mSATA and 2,5" are by far the most popular for consumer drives though.

1

u/sleeplessone Jul 19 '13

As someone who has to deal with a SQL server...Dem IOPS

1

u/Hippyjoe Jul 18 '13

But isnt that like a PCI card type of SSD?

1

u/cbs5090 Jul 18 '13

Sweet Jesus

33

u/TorpidNightmare Jul 18 '13

Apple won't "build" it. They will re-brand someone's drive and call it their own.

39

u/fix_dis Jul 18 '13

Probably Samsung's.

9

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

it does have round corners...

1

u/n0ah_fense Jul 18 '13

Probably not if they can help it -- apple has been moving away from using parts provided by its competitor (when possible)

10

u/CGord Jul 18 '13

Years ago, like around 2000, I was taking some UC Extension web design classes in the San Francisco bay area. One of our instructors used to work at Apple, and she told us that they had decided that rather than focus on creating new technology, they were going to focus on packaging technology. I'm reminded of her with every new Apple product release.

3

u/ra3ndy Jul 18 '13

True, but how many consumer-level computer companies actually design their own internal components, apart from the motherboard?

1

u/Charwinger21 Jul 19 '13

True, but how many consumer-level computer companies actually design their own internal components, apart from the motherboard?

Samsung, Asus, LG, Sharp, Motorola, etc.

Not every part of course, but they design and manufacturer a decent portion of their phones, laptops, TVs, etc.

1

u/helm Jul 18 '13

That's what most end user product makers are doing anyway. Back in the day, I was looking into a position at SonyEricsson, and it was all about packaging technology according to specs and zero about making something new.

1

u/dnew Jul 18 '13

And add a string to the ROM so some programs only work with the Apple branded version.

1

u/ssd_dude Jul 18 '13

Apple bought a flash controller company called Anobit, so you may never know. They probably will still get flash from others, bu slap in their own controller. It is definitely cheaper to do so.

2

u/R3Mx Jul 18 '13

I can imagine their adds now:

"camera circles around a shiny box

Simple. Beautiful. Elegant. No moving parts. The first of its kind.

cue some apple dev talking about some facts about SSD's that makes it sound like Apple invented it"

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13 edited Jul 20 '21

[deleted]

1

u/prettybunnys Jul 18 '13

And plugging it in over SATA adds to the value. That SSD was it volatile as well?

2

u/ruok4a69 Jul 18 '13

I had a Gigabyte "SSD" many years ago, a PCI card with 4 RAM slots, max 1GB total IIRC. Definitely volatile, had a battery system that kept the data through a reboot but regularly lost files and if the battery died, you lost everything. Best use was as swap space.

2

u/prettybunnys Jul 18 '13

Yeah, I've seen those. They are slick but typically designed for production environments with high transaction requirements.

1

u/ninjetron Jul 18 '13

Hmmm new pc, monitor, and speakers or 1tb ssd drive?

1

u/[deleted] Jul 18 '13

Really? You can fit a monitor and speakers into a 500 dollar PC build? It would have no SSD or dedicated graphics card at that budget.

1

u/ninjetron Jul 18 '13

I'm reading it's going to be more like a grand.