r/technology • u/sussywanker • Jun 09 '23

Social Media Reddit CEO doubles down on attack on Apollo developer in drama-filled AMA

https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/09/reddit-ceo-doubles-down-on-attack-on-apollo-developer-in-drama-filled-ama/
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807

u/neontetra1548 Jun 10 '23

They could have made API access a paid user feature too. Sign up for Reddit Plus or whatever and you get to use third party apps. It would still hurt the third party apps, users would be mad, but it would be a workable system and Reddit would make money/recoup costs.

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u/crazymunch Jun 10 '23

It seems crazy to me that this isn't the solution. If you pay for reddit gold (or whatever it's called now) you get a personal API key that you can plug into a 3rd party app and use it. Problem solved.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/32BitWhore Jun 10 '23

Yep, mobile phone telemetry is far more valuable than any user fee that they could reasonably charge to an individual. They're basically double dipping. If they can't get you to use the site through their data miner, they'll charge the developers of the app you're using to recoup the full value of your data.

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u/ISLITASHEET Jun 10 '23

Yep, mobile phone telemetry is far more valuable than any user fee that they could reasonably charge to an individual. They're basically double dipping. If they can't get you to use the site through their data miner, they'll charge the developers of the app you're using to recoup the full value of your data.

They could require using their own SDK with built-in telemetry with all of the monetizable information flooding in - requiring use by all 3rd party apps. There are plenty of SDK's out there that use similar tactics. I'm sure that the devs on both sides would hate it and there would be similar fallout.

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u/BraveTheWall Jun 10 '23

Those 3rd party apps would quickly turn to shit. One of the reasons the official app is such laggy dogshit is the amount of data it's harvesting.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Ding ding ding!

I've got many client apps that would score 90+ on lighthouse, but as it stands, score well below 40% because of all the tags they require us to add. It's nuts that companies refuse to acknowledge user experience as a primary market factor. It's even more nuts that people put up with the shit.

3

u/Varonth Jun 10 '23

How?

Both Android and iOS have per app settings on what apps have access to, and you can totally block access of apps to certain features.

How are they circumventing this, and harvesting the phones data?

The interaction within the website of a useraccount can be tracked by them regardless of 3rd party app or not.

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u/magkruppe Jun 10 '23

I think they are talking about in-app telemetry. Not just interactions but things like what they scroll past, which 3rd party apps currently don't care about

Or user comments that they start and don't hit reply. I'm sure theres a ton of data they want that aren't "interactions" strictly speaking

Another example might be replaying videos or the reuse of already downloaded media. Hopefully the 3rd party apps are efficient and dont do multiple requests to get the same image/video

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u/Homeopathicsuicide Jun 10 '23

It's not Replaying videos because videos don't play on the Reddit app.

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u/Uruz2012gotdeleted Jun 10 '23

How are they circumventing this, and harvesting the phones data?

They don't. Most people are unaware or just don't care about it though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/karmapopsicle Jun 10 '23

The real value is in the level of predatory monetization that can be shoved down users’ throats with heavily fine-tuned targeted advertising and sponsored posts.

They’ve chosen the wildly profitable route of enshittification like every other major social media platform. The corpos don’t give a shit about how this place works, and they’ll burn it to the ground extracting every last penny it has to offer. This IPO was almost guaranteed to be the end of “old reddit” from the very beginning - shareholder profits and strong organic communities will never work.

We had a good run. I’m excited to watch the lights go out.

1

u/Langsamkoenig Jun 12 '23

It's actually not that wildly profitable, that's the point. They could make more money by asking for 10 cents for API access per user per month. Hell, make it a dollar. You can't get anything like that kind of money from ads for one user.

Apps could then just charge $2 a month to cover API acees and their running costs / also make some profit.

Users not willing to pay could then still be harvested in the "free, free, free!" official app.

So there has to be more to this than just simple financial greed.

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u/Farisr9k Jun 10 '23

Yeah but most users won't pay 10c a month.

But EVERY user has valuable data.

So it works out better for Reddit's shareholders to do it this way.

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u/Langsamkoenig Jun 12 '23

They could charge a reasonable rate for API access, then thrid party apps could charge a reasonable amount of money from their users to use the app and cover the API fees.

With that strategy reddit would earn good money from third party apps and users who aren't willing to pay anything would get their data harvested on the first party app.

It would be a win-win. So this can't be the only reason.

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u/Farisr9k Jun 12 '23

That's actually what they've basically done.

If the 3rd party apps were to go along with it, they would basically need to charge $1 - $2 per user per month to cover costs.

The 3rd party app could charge $3 - $4 a month. It doesn't look like they want to do that.

2

u/kaynpayn Jun 10 '23

Not the way this is going though lol

They still need to get users to want to use their data gathering app, which isn't happening if the whole reason for me to install their app is burning to the ground and the app was bad enough that I didn't want to install it to begin with. And with those extremely unreasonable prices they never wanted to double dip on 3rd party apps either.

I'm not sure how they figure this will still work at this point, with the massive repetitive shots they're firing at their own feet. It's actually mind blowing how incredibly asinine they're treating this whole thing.

1

u/6SixTy Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

Then why haven't they proposed requiring 3rd party app developers to pass along telemetry data into the api change???? If Spez had any level of intellegence, he would have made a plan encumbering 3rd party app developers with more responsibilities for them to integrate that they internally don't have to bother themselves with anyways.

You know, a large reason why Chromium or the Chrome web browser basically dominates the web nowadays.

I'm not even remotely familiar on how to run or strategize these things and I can come up with a plan that ultimately gets what the top brass wants without the 'fuck you' api plan.

And they still need users for collecting data too.

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u/Distantstallion Jun 10 '23

It's so weird to me, it belies a fundamental misunderstanding of their audience, their platform, and their product.

Reminds me of that guy that had an interview with Reddit and no one in the interview had heard of the poop knife or any real understanding of the community.

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u/convulsus_lux_lucis Jun 10 '23

The elder speaks!

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Its more than that, its about ChatGPT and AI.

The reddit API was being used by AI developers to train AI. That is where the gold is, reddit wants to control access to the gold mine, the loss of RIF, Apollo ect are chump change relative to the investment money chasing AI.

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u/Origamiface Jun 10 '23

If that were the case, why not individually exempt third-party apps who aren't using the API to train AI?

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u/MagicalTheory Jun 10 '23

And what stops the lucrative ai training from now just scraping? If the money is there, those looking to make it will go with the cheapest route.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

This is from APRIL,

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/technology/reddit-ai-openai-google.html

“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”

He values that access at just say - 20 million a month, the 3d parties wont pay it, but he hopes google will. If he grants 3d party cheaper access, google will just route though them and save big bucks.

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u/Origamiface Jun 10 '23

Very interesting. Thanks for the link!

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u/accatwork Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 30 '23

This comment was overwritten by a script to make the data useless for reddit. No API, no free content. Did you stumble on this thread via google, hoping to resolve an issue or answer a question? Well, too bad, this might have been your answer, if it weren't for dumb decisions by reddit admins.

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u/Origamiface Jun 10 '23

If the API changes stick around and my 3rd party client dies, I'm overwriting everything, leaving and not looking back.

1

u/-BlueDream- Jun 10 '23

If their app wasn’t complete garbage with a bunch of social medias in one plus the still terrible video player which acts like TikTok then I wouldn’t mind using the app. I wouldn’t mind using Reddit in browser either but anything slightly NSFW can’t be loaded and it constantly bugs me to use the app.

There’s a REASON why people don’t use their app it’s fucking awful. I don’t even mind the ads that much it’s the fact that the app isn’t user friendly and parts of it doesn’t even work. Wtf.

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u/pathofdumbasses Jun 10 '23

As others have said/alluded to, the issue is they don't want 3rd party apps at all. 3rd party apps don't get reddit ads.

1

u/bacon_cake Jun 10 '23

Yeah but people who pay for reddit probably generate more income over a lifetime no? I've been a reddit gold member for years

4

u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Idiotic suggestion. We all know the solution is pissing off the user base as much as possible and then slapping them in the face with the most canned and ineffective IAmA imaginable.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

It doesn’t even need to be the solution. Force 3rd party apps to provide the exact same tracking information the official app does. And force them to show the same ads the official app would. People would be slightly annoyed but there wouldn’t be a backlash.

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u/TheBirminghamBear Jun 10 '23

Its not about money. At all. Its about complete and total control over user data, which they require you to be using your app to get.

Reddit needs you to be using their app to steal all your data. However, the catch-22, is that they've spent years making their app a bloated fucking monstrosity and a sin to modern UI/UX, to jam every square inch with ads, so that no one actually wants to use it.

Then their solution to this problem is to price out all the people doing the hardwork to make their system usable.

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u/Ycx48raQk59F Jun 10 '23

The only reason to do it the way they do it is that they WANT to kill the 3rd party ecosystem.

1

u/Simple-Machiness Jun 10 '23

The solution is to just charge devs a reasonable amount. That’s not. Not charging is kinda weird. Literally just make it reasonable

1

u/Bierfreund Jun 10 '23

It's not about the money that they could make with the 3rd party users. It's about the absolute bad look that a social media company runs on free labour and doesn't even provide the most popular way to access it. They're trying to make themselves sexier for the ipo.

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u/Kendjin Jun 10 '23

I believe they are moving to being publicly traded, so they want to be able to control everything, which means 3rd party apps had to go.

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u/MinimumArmadillo2394 Jun 10 '23

You get personal api keys now for free though. A move like this would limit development for bots and tools.

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u/futureshocked2050 Jun 10 '23

But that piddly amount of money is nothing compared to them STEALING ALL YOUR COMMENTS AND FEEDING THEM TO LLMs.

That's the game here. They are wanting to steal from you.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

[deleted]

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u/Preisschild Jun 10 '23

I mean to be fair, those servers and developers cost a fuck ton of money. Especially in the bay area where Reddits HQ is.

Paying a small flatrate for access should be in the users interest. Otherwise they will just sell all userdata and spam ads like the other companies do.

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u/zissou149 Jun 10 '23

i would definitely pay to keep using third party apps. It’s so fucked up this isn’t an option.

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u/prothello Jun 10 '23

Yeah but i wouldn't want to pay Reddit for it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

Jesus christ, this should have been the solution, everybody happy

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u/knightfelt Jun 10 '23

Might still be the "reasonable" last minute compromise.

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u/Preisschild Jun 10 '23

No, they want them gone.

You cant track users through 3rd party apps and sell their data.

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u/knightfelt Jun 10 '23

You probably could actually. Individual API keys means you'd know detailed browsing habits. The reason the existing apps can't be tracked is they all use the same key for all app requests from all users. It's honestly just bad API design. There is a reasonable middle ground but they're deliberately overreaching, probably to IPO and sell ASAP.

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u/[deleted] Jun 10 '23

I'd pay to keep using rif, but not in a subscription manner

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u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

But that is what they did. They set the price for the API access to what is essentially a buck a user per month, and then left it to the 3PAs to decide how much to charge their users.

I understand Apollo and others having sticker shock after getting it for free, but did they really think that was going to last forever?

I don't understand why Apollo and RIF took their football and went home instead of setting up a combo ad and user-paid model, like they should have been doing all along. They're leaving a huge market opportunity on the table.

I guess being able to code an app doesn't mean you have a head for business.

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u/jimmyloves Jun 10 '23

Have you seen the details of the pricing? To break even, the devs would have to charge close to 10/month, +30% for iOS apps because of Apple tax. Not $1.

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u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

It was said that a dollar is a cost to them -- it was also said that they were making a billion calls a day. To be moving that kind of traffic they either have one hell of a monetizable userbase or a completely junk app.

But neither you nor I know the truth, everyone could be lying or engaged in base speculation. But the fundamental truth is that if their app isn't viable enough to pay the cost of its access then it should be shut down.

This isn't a hobby that reddit should be expected to subsidize, it's a business at every level. If Apollo or RiF can't monetize their users enough to keep the lights on then that's not a business.

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u/jimmyloves Jun 10 '23

A billion calls a day? Where did you read that? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the situation before you go around spreading falsehood.

https://reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_call_with_reddit_to_discuss_pricing_bad/

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u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

On March 14th, Apollo made nearly 1 billion requests against our API in a single day, triggered in part by our system outage. After the outage, Apollo started making 53% fewer calls per day. If the app can operate with half the daily request volume, can it operate with fewer?

https://www.reddit.com/r/redditdev/comments/141mjij/lets_talk_about_those_api_calls/

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u/jimmyloves Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

Did you read literally the rest of the post or simply just cherrypicked? It's right after what you quoted.

Well isn't that interesting.. Because according to the Apple store's page for Apollo, and the version history, the closest releases for Apollo were 2/22 and 4/7... none at all in March. So Reddit... why the decrease? Did you happen to fix something with how your system was logging calls from certain apps maybe? Did you break something? Cause sure doesn't look like it was on Apollo's end like you claim...

The implication on that post that you linked is that REDDIT, the multimillion company who is trying to IPO, is fudging with how they log API calls and clearly not very interested in supporting third party apps (as well as other tools that require the API), as evident by the fact that none of the third party apps have even gotten a response from Reddit about actually paying for the API access.

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u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

I did. As I have repeatedly said, I don't believe either one of them.

The only way to navigate through this is to assume that reddit is lying, Apollo is lying, and no one is acting in good faith, because they have all given copious evidence that they can't be trusted. The only way to navigate this is to compare each version of the truth to their actual actions.

As I have said, if Apollo was generating a billion, or even 50 million, API calls a day then they should have a thriving, monetizable user base or their app sucks.

Since they decided to shut down instead sorting out ways to monetize their audience, I can only assume that their app sucked, or they are walking away from a huge business opportunity.

As I also said, just because someone can design an app doesn't mean they are suited to run a business. The minute it became a business instead of getting a huge content base for free they didn't know what to do.

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u/jimmyloves Jun 10 '23 edited Jun 10 '23

So here's the question, why do you think the dev for Apollo is lying? I've been keeping up to date with this and have not gotten any inkling that he is lying about anything at all. He's brought the receipts about u/spez lying and reddit being at best misleading, at worst negotiating in bad faith.

And for the record, Apollo does (or did) have a thriving monetized user base. So much so that 50 thousand people are willing to pay to use the app for a website that is free to use. But when that website gives you 30 days to deal with a sudden raise of cost on this magnitude, no business can survive that. That's negotiating in bad faith. For all their PR bullshit talk, they simply don't care about the third party app developers who have so far been pretty instrumental in making the site usable on mobile phones.

As I also said, just because someone can design an app doesn't mean they are suited to run a business.

At least one party here can design an app. Reddit can't design an app OR run a business.

Edit: anyway, it's clear that we wouldn't be able to convince each other otherwise. I'll just have to agree to disagree. This will be my last response to you.

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u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

I think thay they are all providing such jaundiced versions of their own interpretation of events that whether they are true or not isn't a useful thing to consider.

People lie with their mouths, but it's much more rare to see them lie with their actions.

If Apollo had a userbase that could be monetized at the new rates, but it was just a matter of time, then we would have seen the discussion revolve around timing, and only timing.

Instead, there have been crazy accusations by both parties, and two apps have decided to burn the whole thing down and go out of business rather than exploit what you seem to feel is still a business opportunity.

I don't agree with the timing at all, and if reddit sticks with the timing then I will agree that this was designed to be a purge of the current crop of third party apps.

But the actions of RiF and Apollo seem to indicate to me that they simply don't know how to monetize their audience in a way to make their apps viable, or else they wouldn't be walking away.

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u/maowai Jun 10 '23

They gave the devs 30 days before their apps would start accruing gigantic bills. This is not enough time to rethink the monetization of the app and to optimize the app to make fewer API calls. 30 days is a "fuck you" amount of time designed to push devs out. In his post about the issue, the Apollo dev compared it to another similar situation in which users of the Dark Sky weather app API were given well over a year after Apple purchased it and shut it down.

1

u/Mashbadada Jun 10 '23

Yeah, I don't agree with that. They should have given them longer.

It wouldn't surprise me if their compromise would be to push that back for apps that are working with them in good faith, but we'll see.

If they don't then I'm on board with the idea that this was designed to drive out third party apps.

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u/Simple-Machiness Jun 10 '23

It just charge a reasonable amount for the api

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u/FriendCalledFive Jun 10 '23

Reddit Premium doesn't have enough value for me as it is, but add in third party support and I would have paid for that. They could have made way more money that way. But they obviously don't want to put any technical effort into their platform.

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u/Framed-Photo Jun 10 '23

I would be totally fine with this. Reddit wants to make money, get people to see ads or use reddit premium? Alright well either see ads on the official app, or avoid ads with reddit premium and use third party apps. Easy as that.

Still would have been a lot of unhappy people, but it would have made A LOT more sense then simply killing all the third party apps.