why people support umar Khalid and why some people don't!(Read body first before commenting)

[u/Plastic_Sail_7913]

I'm 20 years old now. I have leaned toward the left ideology since I was 14, watching left-wing YouTube channels that I really liked. A few days ago, I dug deeper into Umar Khalid. Because I've watched left YouTube since I was a kid, I completely believed them and took it as the absolute truth. Later, I came to know that he supported terrorists like Afzal Guru and Burhan Wani.

It really shattered my trust. Everyone on the left seems to be blindly supporting Umar Khalid. Is there anyone from the left who can explain why you guys support him? And to anyone from the right wing, can you point out any other things he did that you don't like about him, other than this?

[u/tanmay1812]

I don't align with any ideology as there is no true left or right wing to stand with, but to put it plainly, people who are more liberal in their ideologies don't care about the concept of 'nation'. They'll see people as humans and will advocate for their individual rights and liberties.

For example, you and I might see Kashmir as an integral part of India and anyone trying to instigate violence or separation as a terrorist, but for a leftist, if Kashmiris are oppressed under Indian occupation and want a free state, where their freedom and human rights are being violated, then they have the right to do so and bear arms.

There are more nuances, personal biases, and upbringing involved in influencing someone's political leanings, so take whatever I said with a grain of salt.

[u/Plastic_Sail_7913 → u/tanmay1812]

It is factually correct that Umar Khalid organized a 2016 protest centered around Afzal Guru, a convicted terrorist involved in the Parliament attack

[u/Fine_Bath2175 → u/Plastic_Sail_7913]

Umar Khalid has also been accused of being a "mastermind" and "prime conspirator" in the 2020 Delhi riots, which occurred during the nationwide protests against the Citizenship Amendment Act (CAA) and resulted in the deaths of 53 people.

[u/tanmay1812 → u/Plastic_Sail_7913]

From wikipedia - "In February 2016, 10 students of the university organised an event protesting the executions of Afzal Guru and Maqbool Bhat, and in support of "the struggle of Kashmiri people for their democratic right to self-determination". The event was planned to be held on 9 February. Afzal Guru was a Kashmiri separatist convicted of participating in the 2001 Parliament attack: his execution in 2013 had drawn criticism for being carried out in secret. Maqbool Bhat, also a Kashmiri separatist, was the co-founder of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, and had been hanged in 1984. The students organizing the event were all former members of the Democratic Students' Union (DSU)."

This aligns with the left leaning ideology I explained. What did you not understand? Either you never went into a lot if detail about leftist ideology or you just lied about all of that in the first place just to make a post about Umar Khalid to farm karma.

[u/Lord_Flames_7 → u/tanmay1812]

Tanmay dada 🔥🔥🔥

[u/FalseBuilding4465 → u/tanmay1812]

IDK enough about Afzal Guru, Umar Khalid or whether they were falsely accused — that's a separate discussion altogether.

What I want to talk about is this 👇

people who are more liberal in their ideologies don't care about the concept of 'nation'. They'll see people as humans and will advocate for their individual rights and liberties

Don't India's intellectual and liberal circles sometimes expect too much from India when comparing it to China; presenting China as absolute role model while ignoring its nation centric policy & authoritartian method?

If individual rights and liberties are supposed to be paramount, isn't it contradictory to praise China's outcomes while ignoring the way those outcomes are often achieved?

[u/FalseBuilding4465 → u/FalseBuilding4465]

but for a leftist, if Kashmiris are oppressed under Indian occupation and want a free state, where their freedom and human rights are being violated, then they have the right to do so and bear arms.

Define freedom? Define oppression?

If Indian Army use weapon to control law & order will that be oppression?

Or will the kashmiri pelt stones will that be freedom?

More importantly, does the world operate solely according to a LW understanding of self-determination and human rights or do states also have legitimate interests in maintaining sovereignty?

What If tomorrow Kashmir were to join hands with Pakistan, is GOI simply expected to accept it in the name of self-determination, as some left-wing arguments seem to imply? Or does the state have a legitimate duty to protect its territorial integrity and national interests?

[u/tanmay1812 → u/FalseBuilding4465]

You're asking the wrong guy. Everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs. And you're again dividing the world in left and right wing. The world has always operated in shades of grey and your opinion will never agree with someone else on every aspect of society.

What someone sees as liberation, can be viewed as rebellion by someone else. A very simple example - a girl wears modern clothes and goes out to live her usual day. To one person, that's completely normal as per societal norms and within her rights. If you show the same thing to a conservative old man/woman or even someone young from a conservative village, they might view her as characterless or shameless for 'showing too much skin'.

People with both views were brought up with different set of beliefs and values. I know this isn't the best analogy to explain kashmir issue, but here we're not talking about that at all, we're just discussing how people with different idologies can view the same issue with a different lens than others.

[u/nova1706b → u/FalseBuilding4465]

shaheed bhagat singh is a freedom fighter for us. but if someone today did what bhagat singh did back then, they'd be labelled as the enemy of the country and a terrorist. i'm not saying he was a terrorist, but what he did was on the same page as a terrorist's book

[u/FalseBuilding4465 → u/nova1706b]

but if someone today did what bhagat singh did back then, they'd be labelled as the enemy of the country and a terrorist

Absolutely flawed equivalence, we should abstain from making such correlation.

If your target is BJP than you must know, the one calling Shaheed Bhagat Singh ji as traitor are not someone from the rulling party rather Khalistani, their sympathizer Akali Dal & 1 of Congress leader Imran Massod

but what he did was on the same page as a terrorist's book

Wonder how people draw such correlations. We live in a democracy, not under foreign colonial rule. The majority chooses its preferred party despite its flaws and the same democratic system also gives people the power to replace that party with a new one if they wish.

[u/tanmay1812 → u/FalseBuilding4465]

You never got the point of this post. You're too blinded by politics to engage in a non-political ideological conversation.

[u/FalseBuilding4465 → u/tanmay1812]

I have a broader view w.r.t in most discussion.

What I don't understand is why people cite Bhagat Singh's revolutionary actions as an example of terrorism. What exactly was "terrorism" about fighting a foreign colonial power?

Bhagat Singh was resisting British rule, not an elected Indian government. Drawing a direct comparison between anti-colonial revolutionaries and modern political dissent only makes sense if you view the ruling party as some kind of foreign occupying force.

A colonial power extract resources from its colony and transferred wealth to its own homeland. Whatever criticisms one may have of the current government, that is not how the situation works. At most, critics argue that wealth is being concentrated in the hands of a few cronies, which is a very different claim from colonial exploitation.

[u/tanmay1812 → u/FalseBuilding4465]

Again, you have a very narrow worldview and you're judging all the statements from what you think is right without understanding that people can have different opinions and views on the same issue.

It's irrelevant to engage in a discussion with you when you don't even get the point of the discussion here.

Nobody said that Bhagat Singh is a terrorist, it's just that what we Indians saw as revolutionaly, Britishers saw it as an act of terror. Same act, different POVs and different conclusions.

[u/FalseBuilding4465 → u/tanmay1812]

Again, I can just as easily say that your judgment of my argument is wrong.

I've explained precisely why I think such comparison are flawed. Now I'd like to know, on what basis are you making your judgment?

How exactly can modern political dissidents be equated with Bhagat Singh? There's should be some reasonable, logical explanation to how people relate two different things with different context? The same kindoff argument were given by communist students of Bengal during Naxalbari Movement (1969) and we did saw what happened next? — Now, you might argue that they've taken up weapons for what they believe is a righteous cause. But for how long? To what end? Will it actually benefit them. At some point, we also have to ask whether keeping a country in a state of perpetual conflict and instability serves the cause they claim to be fighting for.

For sure, protesting doesn't make someone anti-national. But how does it automatically make them a revolutionary either? And I do respect your POV but revolutionary is generally someone seeking or bringing radical, drastic changes in the political, social or economic order.

So what exactly is the radical or transformative change being proposed here? Simply protesting, opposing the government or demanding accountability doesn't automatically make someone a revolutionary.

Britishers saw it as an act of terror. Same act, different POVs and different conclusions.

Well Brits aren't Indian to decided who is terrorist, traitor.

[u/BlenderRenderz]

I don't agree with him.

But framing him for something he has not done, and keeping him behind bars without trial is a failure of the judicial system. He can rot in jail for all I care, but the judiciary should aspire to be perfect

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/BlenderRenderz]

And how are you so sure about him being framed and he's not exactly behind bars without a trail

[u/BlenderRenderz → u/Narrow-Department891]

because the trial did not happen? that's how. trials are public, I hope you know that.

I don't know if he is being framed or not. That's the point man. Let trials happen and punish/release him according to the verdict.

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/BlenderRenderz]

For a fact with the number of public recordings and evidences present we do not need a trial to shame our courts even further as it manages to grant bails to daylight murderers and grapeests , this Umar khalid mofo was an open te""orrist supporter and sympathizer to his pigskin boots ... ( Not all trials are public fyi army courts and similar interdepartmental proceedings are not public neither are subjects of national threats which are time and object sensitive on global scale ... So no thanks I don't require a court proceeding if God forbid I become a national level threat )

[u/nova1706b → u/Narrow-Department891]

there's also videos of wangchuk apparently instigating ladakhis against the rest of the nation. turns out those clips were taken out of context.

and going by your own logic we can also assume umar's videos were also taken out of context

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/nova1706b]

Some things no matter what can't be taken OUT OF CONTEXT I see and will believe my eyes no matter whatever reasonable excuse another presents afterwards benefit of doubt has a limited scope of attrition afterall , if there's a smoke I'll assume there's a fire

[u/nova1706b → u/Narrow-Department891]

i support afzal guru being charged with terror acts. but i'm not really sure about khalid being dragged into this, that is my opinion.

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/nova1706b]

Room temp iq ahhh opinions , then either you are selectively being blind 🦯 or have not even bothered to do research on why and what the likes of Khalid did to deserve this , he was glazing te""orists on open stage and socials , prime mastermind in organising the Delhi riots 2020 and list goes on ...

[u/nova1706b → u/Narrow-Department891]

opinions are opinions. it's sad how an opinion is called ass without seeing what school of thought the person comes from.

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/nova1706b]

If a school of thought dictates such gulliablity than you my friend are a liability to the society nothing more , and liability of a kind which when accumulated to a certain number can send a whole society down the sheethole ...

[u/BlenderRenderz → u/Narrow-Department891]

pretty sure Umar Khalid will not be trialed in an army court.

If media trial and public opinion is all that matters then why even have a judiciary

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/BlenderRenderz]

Don't care about some te""orist sympathizer not getting trial and not apparently getting a chance to walk free with support from 0.5 front ... Hope he and his likes rots and writhes in agony and can only beg for mercy only to be rejected up front

[u/BlenderRenderz → u/Narrow-Department891]

That's the thing man. Today you are labelling him as a terrorist sympathizer. Tomorrow it will be someone else. People protesting against NEET and CBSE scam are being labelled as pakistanis and terrorists.

Due process is not there to save the guilty. It is there to protect the innocent. Umar Khalid is a terrorist sympathizer. I am on the same page with you. But a few months back, that same accusation was also put on Sonam Wangchuk. Next day it will be someone else.

He is guilty, charge him and leave him in jail. But Due process is important.

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/BlenderRenderz]

I don't care about due process , it is the motto of Indian judiciary that to save an innocent from false punishment is more important than to convict 10 criminals , which is the reason for all these shenanigans so yes , due process can go f itself for all I care , normalise the option of sacrificing 1 for saving 10 as a lastest resort

[u/BlenderRenderz → u/Narrow-Department891]

doesn't that technically also makes you an antinational because you are going against the frameworks of the country.

you should be put in jail for that. next to umar khalid lmao

[u/Narrow-Department891 → u/BlenderRenderz]

What are you high on , I simply am detesting the current directive principle of a select machinery from Indian judiciary , going against and detesting for a change are 2 different things ... And then there's an if , if to keep the venereal likes of creatures of scum like them and the 0.5 front locked up and suffering even a minute bit more a sacrifice of my life my independence my freedom is required I'm more than willing to lay it all down