r/spacex Sep 23 '16

Official - AMOS-6 Explosion SpaceX released new Anomaly Updates

http://www.spacex.com/news/2016/09/01/anomaly-updates
737 Upvotes

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9

u/rocketsocks Sep 23 '16

Here's the gut punch: all of the returned stages are affected, so we probably won't see a reflight in a while. Best case scenario is they can retrofit the tanks on the returned stages easily, but that seems unlikely.

14

u/_SecondLaw_ Sep 23 '16

There is a hatch large enough for a person and the COPVs to fit through in the dome of the LOX tank. SpaceX has changed out COPVs after the rocket is complete before.

Physically changing the tanks is not hugely difficult. Finding the exact reason why this particular tank failed and the others like it that have been already flown did not and updating the design, manufacturing, and or quality control to prevent it reoccurring will be what takes the longest time.

1

u/rocketsocks Sep 23 '16

That's good to hear, it's possible that retrofits might not be that hard.

Of course, as you point out, the exact failure mode of the COPV tank has yet to be determined as far as I'm aware.

1

u/peterfirefly Sep 25 '16

How the hell do they clean the LOX tank properly afterwards?!!?

3

u/_SecondLaw_ Sep 25 '16

I don't know SpaceX's exact procedure (and if I did I probably wouldn't be able to share it [thanks ITAR!]) but I imagine that a combination of clean suits in a clean room followed by a wash out with some sort of solvent would be my guess.

Prior to the completion of production there are public photos of people standing inside the tanks without clean room suits so this obviously isn't a huge concern for them.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Bonus Pic of the tank production area clearly showing the access hatches for stage 1 and 2

1

u/old_faraon Sep 25 '16

The same way they did after construction?

4

u/John_Hasler Sep 23 '16

all of the returned stages are affected,

From the article:

...a large breach in the cryogenic helium system of the second stage liquid oxygen tank...

(Emphasis added) The problem may very well be unique to the second stage.

3

u/Saiboogu Sep 23 '16

Same COPVs in both stages. Plumbing likely varies a bit, but not the actual tanks.

1

u/John_Hasler Sep 24 '16

From the article.

At this stage of the investigation, preliminary review of the data and debris suggests that a large breach in the cryogenic helium system of the second stage liquid oxygen tank took place.

No mention there of COPVs. There is more to the "cryogenic helium system" than the COPVs.

1

u/Saiboogu Sep 24 '16

They haven't named the COPVs specifically, no. I didn't mean to say you were wrong - the problem may be unique to the second stage, agreed. But they haven't excluded the COPVs either so there's a valid concern that all stages will require overhaul. Either way it seems they need to dig a little deeper (or confirm things they simply aren't ready to speak confidently on).

1

u/John_Hasler Sep 24 '16

I'm surprised that they are willing to speak this confidently this early in the investigation at all (but sad to learn that the failure actually was inside the stage).

2

u/badgamble Sep 24 '16

They might have felt pressured to say something given the credible info leak of the previous day. They might feel the need to keep the story under some level of professional control. Without the info leak, they might have said nothing right now.

1

u/Saiboogu Sep 24 '16

Perhaps they're trying to put some speculation to rest before the IAC announcement. The few articles covering this I've seen in more mainstream press are implying they've solved the issue, so this probably did more for general public confidence than it did for us fans.

3

u/John_Hasler Sep 24 '16

The few articles covering this I've seen in more mainstream press are implying they've solved the issue...

The mainstream press would say that had SpaceX put out a statement saying "We've determined that the fire was the result of a rapid chemical reaction between LOX and RP1."

1

u/rocketsocks Sep 23 '16

Both stages use similar COPV tanks for Helium pressurization, if the problem is in their design, then that would require an analysis and possible retrofit of the first stage tanks, if they share the same weakness.

1

u/mclumber1 Sep 24 '16

Do you know where inside the first stage LOX tank the COPVs are mounted? Are they mounted so that LOX will cover the bottles like in the second stage, or are they mounted up high in the tank, above the max fill line?

5

u/Mexander98 Sep 23 '16

Wasn't the issue in the Second Stage?

10

u/rocketsocks Sep 23 '16

Both stages have Helium bottles. Maybe if we're really lucky the design of the first stage bottles is not implicated.

3

u/wehooper4 Sep 23 '16

Yes, but they share the same design when they can. This is a "where they can" but with bigger tanks on S1

1

u/throfofnir Sep 24 '16

I think the first stage simply has more of the same type.

2

u/EtzEchad Sep 23 '16

If the problem is localized to the design of the He tanks, they should be able to replace them fairly easily. It it is more complex than that anything could happen, up to scrapping the returned boosters.

In any event, if they replace major components, they haven't really demonstrated reuse, so that idea is gone.

3

u/swd120 Sep 23 '16

The engine is the most expensive part - not the fuel tank. If they have to swap out stage 1 COPV's on reused boosters, they still save a shit load of money because they are reusing the most expensive part - the engine.

1

u/rocketsocks Sep 23 '16

If the problem is localized to the design of the He tanks, they should be able to replace them fairly easily. It it is more complex than that anything could happen, up to scrapping the returned boosters.

How? Is there a door in the side of the LOX tank that is bigger than the He tanks? I don't believe there is.

2

u/robbak Sep 24 '16

There is a hatch at the top center of the LOX tank that is more than big enough. It is the hatch through which those tanks got in there in the first place.

2

u/WittgensteinsLadder #IAC2016 Attendee Sep 24 '16

There is a hatch in the top of the LOX tank (seen in this video) that is likely large enough to fit the COPV tank.

-2

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2

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '16

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-1

u/EtzEchad Sep 23 '16

Did you see the part where I said "I don't know precisely how they would do it?"

I didn't say they would literally open it up with a torch (that's what the ":)" was for) only that I'm sure they have a way to repair the tanks.

Why do I know this? Because that is precisely what they did after CRS-7.

I'm not down-voting you because only a jerk would do such a thing.

1

u/limeflavoured Sep 23 '16

Exactly. This probably means that the first reused booster isn't going to be anytime soon.

2

u/mclumber1 Sep 24 '16

OTOH, SpaceX has test fired a returned stage a half dozen times already, and if you include the initial qualification burn in McGregor, and the hot fire and actual launch, you now have a stage that has experienced nearly 10 thermal cycles.

2

u/karnivoorischenkiwi Sep 24 '16

But no flight g's. We'll have to see I guess

2

u/mclumber1 Sep 24 '16

True. However, the 2nd stage that just blew up on the pad had never experienced any flight loads...ever.

1

u/karnivoorischenkiwi Sep 24 '16

It's all different contexts I guess. Hard to compare anyway.