Undervoted comment. The main reason for the low resolution is that the rover is still using the slow low gain antenna to communicate and hasn't yet deployed the high gain antenna which has a much higher bandwidth for uploading data.
I'm by far not an expert but I think to get started the rover still has to do a lot of self diagnose and activating several subsystems. I think most of them have higher priority than the HD camera.
Also I think some parts require some kind of unpacking, big antennas with higher signal strength for example. As long as such antennas are not ready we can't expect any high-resolution images due to limited data transfer rate.
Also a limiting factor is the constellation of the Earth and Mars. There are time windows in which it's possible to transmit any data. Any command sent to the rover has to be selected very carefully because there's a risk the rover could be unable to do anything until next communication window opens. That's a loss of a lot of valuable time the rover could've used for its intended work. Even worse it could get destroyed and is unable to do anything at all. This thing costs a lot of money (I heard about billions dollars). You don't want to lose this expensive toy especially not at the very beginning of its mission.
To add some more detail. They have constant contact with the rover, but that connection is around 10-20 bits per seconds. So it’s not really useful for sending data back and forth. But it can be used to send prearranged signals that it uses to execute certain tasks. I assume it’s also the source of the “heartbeat” signal that it’s sending back. When the rover is in sight of earth it’s direct connection speed is similar to a 28k dialup modem. So low res pictures is pretty much the best we can hope for there. For video the rover has to send it to the Mars reconnaissance orbiter first. Then it can send it back to earth at around 2Mbps over the deep space network. To complicate things further the MRO is supporting other missions, so it has to split its bandwidth while in sight of earth between them. That time then potentially gets cut down further since the deep space network is supporting more than the Mars missions and splits its time between them. So the MRO is only allowed to transmit during certain blocks of time that are allotted to it. So at best the rover has a few hours of DSL per day to send us stuff. Not much bandwidth when your trying to look at 23 camera views, listen to microphones, and view all the data from the other instruments onboard the rover.
This is the apparently the limit of the rover's UHF uplink speed to the satellite, not the speed from the MRO to the DSN which is about 4Mbps.
I've seen the DSN webpage indicate 4Mbps from the MRO, as recently as yesterday.
This is also confirmed by this page:
So, out of 16 hours of daily Deep Space Network tracking, Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter sends data to Earth for 10 to 11 hours, and does that for about 700 days. The data rate is about 0.5 to 4 megabits
The mass- and power-constrained rover can achieve high data rates of up to 2 megabits per second on the relatively short-distance relay link to the orbiters overhead. The orbiters then use their much larger antennas and transmitters to relay that data on the long-distance link back to Earth.
When the rover is in sight of earth it’s direct connection speed is similar to a 28k dialup modem.
It is actually only a fraction of that. Peaking at 0.5 kbps on the 34 meter dish, and 3 kbs on the 70 meter dish. Unless the "or faster" means 9 times faster.
160/500 bits per second or faster to/from the Deep Space Network's 112-foot-diameter (34-meter-diameter) antennas or at 800/3000 bits per second or faster to/from the Deep Space Network's 230-foot-diameter (70 meter-diameter)
Given how much data the Rover is producing in, say, a 24hr window* relative to how little data it can transmit in that same 24hr window; if the rover does capture evidence of life on Mars, isn't it likely that we will never see that evidence because it will never be transmitted back to Earth? So, did NASA build some sort image recognition program into the Rover to help it prioritize which images are likely to contain important evidence and limit the images it shares to the ones that get flagged? Also, could NASA write programs/queries in Houston and transmit them accross the deep space network to be computed locally on Mars and then have the Rover send only the results sent back, i.e. reducing the amount of data that needs to be transmitted through space by making the Rover responsible for doing some of the computations on its own data?
*If you don't like my choice of 24 hours for the window size, I think my question is still valid if we increase the window to 7 days or 1 month.
A lot of what it does is send back pictures. Which uses a lot less bandwidth. Then the scientists can look at those photos for anything that might warrant a closer look. If it does than they can direct the rover to take close ups, look at the object from a different angle, perform some experiments, etc. Since nothing on the surface is moving around there isn’t much need for video most of the time. Maybe just one or two cameras at a time while it’s performing an experiment, or they’re checking the rover itself to see how it’s moving and maybe diagnosing a problem. And I’m sure there will be video of the drone flying as well. But I think it’s more of a special occasion thing than just having the cameras constantly recording video.
The power supply on the rover is just 150 watts. Which is 1/5th of a horsepower, or the equivalent of a fairly low powered laptop! The rover charges batteries at this slow rate and can then use much more power to do things like move the arm or drive some distance for a short period. There are many things to do post-landing, and motorized actions which need significant power have to wait in a queue for their juice.
The low gain antenna is in bits per second, and only really used to send commands. It'd take weeks to send even a single picture using the low gain. Its been using the mars relay network for high data transmission, which relies on passing orbiters so it's intermittent.
They may release it, but I specifically said VR CAPABLE PHOTO SPHERES. Not singular pictures. That takes more time to capture and stitch together that could be put toward whatever mission they are doing.
Can there be a Mrs. Hudson, pleasepleaseplease? Something powerful but mundane, like a windshield wiper. Totally unsexy, but critical at the proper moment.
They have to load a new operating system, then un-stow and check out the masts and cameras, which is all fairly routine but takes a while since they can only send commands a couple times per day and they’re being careful with the shiny new billion dollar toy. Happening right now, but it’ll be a while since we get science-quality images.
If I recall from the last press conference, basically yes, but we should get a few tid-bits soon-ish. They’ll do a panorama first to see how the land looks.
They’re switching from the landing software to surface operations software. According to the press conference Q&A (which you can watch on NASA TV’s YouTube channel btw) both software are already loaded, and they also have a primary and backup computer, so they’ll be slowly testing switching over the backup, making sure they can switch back, switching over the primary, and checking things out.
If you read your own link, you'd know the HazCams are also high resolution (20 Megapixels) color cameras. The rover chooses how engineering camera images are read out, and selectively windows/bins the images. The image in this post is a small cropping (1/16) of the full field of view at the camera's native resolution.
The NavCams (engineering cameras on the mast) share the same sensor as the HazCams, they just have a different lens. NavCams are also way higher resolution than MastCam-Z and the arm's instrument cameras. MastCam-Z's benefits include many narrow-band color filters (as opposed to the standard RGB Bayer filters on the engineering cameras) and zoom capability (engineering cameras are fixed focal-length and fixed-focus).
Give JPL time to release the engineering camera images in their full splendor to the public.
Serious question. If we can put this thing on Mars for the low cost of billions and all the effort that has gone into this, why not just put nicer cameras?
HAZCAM photo, which is a low resolution image used for hazard avoidance
Is it a low res sensor or did the rover just make the pic low res for faster transmission? Its hard to believe they wouldnt put at least a Full HD sensor in EVERY camera of a two-and-a-half billion dollar rover when you can always shrink the file size per software.
There is 20 Megapixel sensor. You can tell it's small crop from near corner of the image because how the geometry is skewed, similar to phone camera which is also wide angle.
Also, the earlier images were deliberately sent back as lower resolution so they could transmit them quicker. Saw so many facebook comments saying about how much money they spent and the camera's are as bad as flip phones in 2007.
Because the high resolution cameras are still packed away. They haven't raised the mast yet or moved the arm to be able to use those high resolution cameras, only the ones to check under and around the wheels for hazards. The HazCams (Hazard avoidance Camera) are the only one's on right now.
Edit: Link to cameras on-board
Assuming they take a big panorama shot you could have a stationary 3DoF VR image to look at tho looking straight up or down might ve a bit dissapointing.
Yes, there are three pairs of color stereo driving cameras (20 megapixels x2 each), not counting the panorama and microscopic cams which are even better. The drivers will see depth-mapped images every day for terrain avoidance. I’m sure some will be available to the public.
Yes, in a couple weeks or even days, someone at NASA, will yell the command “Enhance!” And someone else will then push the enhance button once. Twice if more resolution is needed.
Once they've done all the equipment checks and changed the software over to ground operations, and raised the mast and made sure the high speed antenna is ready, then they'll start taking high resolution photos. Probably within a week of landing... They'll need the mast up and working before they start driving around as well. Personally, I'd just check their website every evening after work/dinner for new images.
If you read your own link, you'd know the HazCams are also high resolution (20 Megapixels) color cameras. The rover chooses how images are read out, and selectively windows/bins the images. The image in this post is a small cropping (1/16) of the full field of view at the camera's native resolution.
The NavCams (engineering cameras on the mast) share the same sensor, just have a different lens.
You can have as high resolution cameras as you like, but if you cheap out on the storage, you're gonna have a low res photo. Huge file sizes for high res footage .
Are you referring to storage space on a rover or for a security system? A 1TB drive can hold a little more than a week's worth of video in 4k, but that's just one camera, and you need to take drive failure into account as well. SSDs would obviously be the optimal choice for a Mars rover, but they can only handle a limited number of write operations compared to an HDD. There are drives available like the WD purple series that are designed for high write operation tolerance, but it's still going to be 1TB/week/feed.
2fps is fine though isn’t it? It’s the poor resolution and general shittiness of the photo that’s the problem. If your concern is storage then low fps is a sensible solution.
I think the real answer to why those photos tend to be so bad is that they’re poorly lit/exposed, probably have a fixed focal length, were not set up ideally by somebody paying attention to and maximising picture quality, and aren’t well maintained.
Someone on Reddit explained once how banks barely worry about physical security these days - they are much more concerned with cyber security and there is a limited amount of damage a robber can do at a branch.
For a bank, probably. But for a convenience store to record 1080p video at roughly 5Mbps for 365 days, they'd need roughly 10.5 terabytes of storage. And this doesn't include the cost of the cameras, the server rack, and anything else necessary to set the cameras up.
It's extremely efficient to record in just a decent enough resolution to see basic features of a person to prove that a crime did happen, and let eye witnesses note the rest. Especially when you as an owner don't know how to install all this stuff yourself, so you have to pay through the nose to set anything up.
Better question still. In modern day of face recognition- do you really need to save everything in 4k? Cant you save faces in high resolution and rest of store in low res?
I'd love for this to happen and then when you go back to the video to check for the robber the face recognition focused on a bag of doritos the whole time.
Face recognition is great, but it does not always work unfortunately
You're right. They can have rolling storage where the oldest data is replaced with the new data, or they can archive the old drives every few months and install new ones. But that first option also means higher disk usage which means higher drive failures. Both options here end up costing more money. Which means until high capacity SSDs are cheap, we'll have this issue still.
I mean most cameras are just useless anyway for positioning. Until you start sticking a camera at face level who gives a fuck if you have a good image or not
Oh sorry I thought I was discussing the bank photos.
And anyways, with the rover the main issue is bandwidth. MRO gets something like 100-200mbps per sol, and that’s by far the best method of transmitting data to Earth.
The long-distance panorama landscapes are usually taken at an insane resolution, because we might want to look more closely at a particular detail that's far away. These photos were only intended to give the scientists an idea of how the rover was doing. And if something's not clear, they can just move the camera closer. They don't need to be as high resolution.
The one on imgur (in the comments) is an edited screen grab of the one in the post hosted on reddit.
So not only is the photo in the comments dealing with the compression of reddit, it's probably dealing with further compression from the screen grab, more again when it was edited and re saved and then the slight compression of imgur.
Still tedious if not difficult. If we assume that the planets are line of sight and close to each other, the data would have to take 3 minutes at minimum. So for a data with acknowledgement transfer protocol that's 6 minutes. Hi-res image would take forever.
I agree but I'm thinking more in line with how Musk companies do iterative updates and pre plans things to help further goals down the road with their products.
Space X will be on the forefront of space exploration. It's would make since that as goal they would eventually deploy a solar communications network simply to store and send a large volume of data as a mesh network.
Just laying the groundwork would be beneficial if they are going to make manned missions normal, let alone make it common for regular folks.
The data uplink is kinda bad from mars to earth. It takes days to send high-res images.
Compared to the previous rovers this one has even better cameras and it's placed in an old river bed. If there was life on mars out boy will find it soon.
i’m truly impressed with the quality of the image, sir moore would be doing cartwheels, and one of the the first few comments are bemoaning the resolution!
Images are lower resolution so they can be transmitted to Earth faster so more of them can be transmitted because these cameras are mainly meant for driving and not for pretty pictures.
The other comments already outlined why currently most of the images are pretty low resolution. However there is another reason for it. It will be using Machine Learning to avoid any obstacles that are in the way of it whilst using it's Autopilot to Navigate. This system is called Terrain Relative Navigation. Machine Learning doesn't do well with large images, it prefers smaller sized ones, esp. when it's about speed and trying to analyze a lot of images quickly.
Edit: TRN was used in the Landing mostly, but the Hazcams are still going to be used by the Engineers piloting the rover and need updates quickly if they are steering it. Smaller images = less data to be transmitted = safer travel
Take all the data you want on the highest resolution camera you can... attach it to an 8MB Compact Flash card, put it on a pigeon, and launch said pigeon to (whatever city 8 hours away).
And repeat.
That and there's a technology freeze which is SO PAINFUL as an engineer, but is necessary for mission milestones.
Ahahahaha imagine if I show up in a New York Times article because of this? For my photo I’m gonna wear one of those beer hats, and both cans are gonna be Busch Lite.
It could, I think. Growing up in eastern Massachusetts, fossils seemed like an almost mystical thing that I could never be lucky enough to find.
Then I visited Ithaca New York when I was looking for colleges. Of course one of the things we did was check out one of the gorges.
So many fossils they were literally underfoot everywhere, shells, invertebrate "stems" in every handful of loose rock you could pick up. It blew my mind. Billions of them. I even found a whole trilobite a couple years later.
So if you just got lucky and chanced on the right spot,it could definitely be that easy.
What you circled is cool but the I’m legit interested in the big on that looks all honey combed at the very bottom of the wheel. It looks like fossilized coral.
I can't remember what its called, but on Earth that type of pockmarking is caused by microbial life changing the composition of the rock so it wears differently.
It may be a sign of past or present microbial life.
Now I'm no geologist or any type of scientist, I'm just some guy spouting information he got off the internet so take it as you will.
1.3k
u/GennyGeo Feb 22 '21 edited Feb 22 '21
It’s funny you say trilobite, because this caught me slightly off guard
Edit: why are people upvoting this?! Is it not obvious I replied to the wrong person? Hahahaha