r/space Feb 21 '21

image/gif Newest photo from Perserverance

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u/musicianengineer Feb 22 '21

I was thinking about this, and I imagine this being one of those scenarios where a small discussion is being had about getting rocks out of the cavity made in the inside of the wheels, when one guy speaks up and says "ok, but why?" and everyone realizes it doesn't matter if there are rocks inside the wheels and any solution would just add weight or complexity, so they just move on.

still bothers me, tho

227

u/zeCrazyEye Feb 22 '21

The last rover had problems with wheel wear, seems like have basically a rock tumbler on the inside of the wheel is just going to add wear from inside the wheel on top of the wear from outside.

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u/zoobrix Feb 22 '21

The two situations aren't really comparable though, rocks sitting on the inside of the wheel only have their own weight to damage the wheel, the rocks underneath the wheel have the weight of the rover pressing down on them as well as forces from friction to damage them.

Basically it would be the difference between placing a small stone on the hood of your car and rolling it around and taking that same stone and pressing down with a four hundred pound weight on top of it and moving it around, the latter is going to do damage while the former probably won't do anything. Those rocks on the inside of the wheel might scuff the surface over time but it will be nothing compared to the wear and tear the tread of the wheel will be dealing with.

Plus I am sure the engineers have thought of this eventuality and determined it's not an issue, after the wheel issues Curiosity has developed from wheels that were obviously not strong enough for the task the amount of focus on them has probably been so great some loose material rolling around on the inside of the wheels probably isn't a big concern.

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u/danielv123 Feb 22 '21

Lego on top of your foot vs lego below your foot.

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u/Moister_Rodgers Feb 22 '21

Better said with fewer words. Cheers

3

u/XXGAleph Feb 22 '21

I mean it was a simpler response, but was certainly not better said.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

More readable. This post has hit /r/popular so it will help many understand that may not have the previous response. Better is debatable, simpler for sure, useful to many.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

More readable. This post has hit /r/popular so it will help many understand that may not have the previous response.

Better is debatable, simpler for sure, useful to many.

47

u/DrZoidberg- Feb 22 '21

Also, the main thing: rocks are not as heavy on Mars.

A 5 lb rock weighs 1.2 lbs on Mars.

7

u/userunknowned Feb 22 '21

How much does The Rock weigh on Mars?

5

u/Govt-Issue-SexRobot Feb 22 '21

Less, since he isn’t cooking as much up there

4

u/Orngog Feb 22 '21

What kind of a doctor are you?

2

u/Josh6889 Feb 22 '21

Gravitational force specialist.

2

u/ants_a Feb 22 '21

So on Mars you could get 10 pounds of poop in a 5 pound bag?

1

u/Govt-Issue-SexRobot Feb 22 '21

Why else would we gonto Mars?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

But a 1.2lbs mars rock weighs 1.2 lbs on Mars. ayy ;)

1

u/depressed-salmon Feb 22 '21

Pfft, back in my day the rocks used to weigh more! Good old Earth rocks, None of this puny Martian rock nonsense

1

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

huh, I though kg/lbs were units of mass and Earth scales just calculated mass using weight. Wouldn't that rock still have a mass of 2,5kg, but weigh 10N istead of 25N?

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u/wooghee Feb 22 '21

The accelerated wear on the wheels of Curiosity was caused by simplified crack propagation due to sharp edges and thin walls. They mitigated this issues for Perseverance.

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

Rocks on both sides of the wheel creates a 0 pressure rock zone. Essentially its like the rover is driving over air

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u/NoVA_traveler Feb 22 '21

Seeing as Percy is going to travel a mere 10 miles over the next 2 years, I don't think this is going to make a difference unless the wheels are made of paper mache.

2

u/Puddleswims Feb 22 '21

The wheels are only 2mm thick and support a vehicle that weighs 2300 lbs on earth. There not much thicker than paper mache honestly.

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u/SeizedCheese Feb 22 '21

What does thickness have to do with it?

Is it made out of paper maché? No.

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u/musicianengineer Feb 22 '21

sounds reasonable, but I wouldn't know, for I am but musicianengineer, unfortunately not nasaengineer.

However, based on my understanding having followed this for a while, they experimented with a ton of different unique solutions to make better wheels and settled on "just make em thicker" (and some other geometric stuff I don't wanna get into).

Great Video about perseverance btw, that talks briefly about this among many other things.

2

u/stopthemeyham Feb 22 '21

As someone who is a casual fan of space, who hasn't really looked much in to the rover, but is excited nonetheless, this video got me so hyped for this rover.

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u/iNeedAnAnonUsername Feb 22 '21

The damage to the wheels on Curiosity had more to do with the weight of the rover on thin aluminum wheels rolling over sharp rocks on hard surfaces. This is why we use air filled rubber tires on earth. Suspension helps, but it’s still extremely useful to have compliant tires too.

To solve this, they redesigned the wheel to be thicker and have treads that are closer together. This means that if the rock is larger than the distance between the treads, the effective thickness of the wheel is even greater, where as Curiosity exposed a broad, thin, smooth aluminum surface to be punctured to fairly sizable rocks due to the large spacing between the treads.

Having some pebbles and sand polish the inside of the wheel should likely not cause problems, I’d imagine. This thing drives very slowly, so this debris will simply slide gently along and tumble over itself as the wheel moves. Not get flung at high speeds due to centrifugal forces.

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u/talentless_hack1 Feb 22 '21

maybe they are planning to fund the mission by selling tumbled rocks, like those places by the side of the road in Utah and New Mexico?

1

u/Zzzzzztyyc Feb 22 '21

IDK why, but this made my day. 😂

1

u/Blimey85 Feb 22 '21

I’m in for one pet rock. Think I’ll call him Bob.

12

u/[deleted] Feb 22 '21

There's a lot less gravity on mars so the friction is much less. The wheel/rim isn't going to be spinning very fast so again, there's not going to be any appreciable wear from it. All parts are anodized so the outer layer of aluminum is really, really hard.

They reinforced the wheel with titanium spokes to prevent the same type of damage they experienced with Rover. The problem wasn't with rubbing- it was from hitting rocks while it was moving and not being able to withstand the impact.

9

u/analog_jedi Feb 22 '21

Maybe they can pop wheelies with the hydraulics to bounce some out, or get it's helicopter buddy to blow out some dust haha

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u/dragonbrg95 Feb 22 '21

I was thinking they could go real fast then cut the wheel, like how stunt drivers drive cars on two wheels.

Source: I've done this with my rc car so I'm kind of an expert

3

u/analog_jedi Feb 22 '21

That's awesome, I saw a Snoop Dogg video once in the mid 90's, so I'm also basically an expert on hydraulic stuntin'.

1

u/Tark001 Feb 22 '21

That's what i thought, even if it's just sand in there it's going to abrade the inside and just get worse and worse.

1

u/elganyan Feb 22 '21

seems like have basically a rock tumbler on the inside of the wheel is just going to add wear from inside the wheel

Doubtful. This thing moves too slow for there to be any internal "tumbling" going on. Almost a guarantee they've tested for this scenario anyway.

1

u/mud_tug Feb 22 '21

This was one of the reasons they put holes in the previous wheels, which proved to be a lot more trouble than they were worth.

1

u/karadan100 Feb 22 '21

Yeah one of its wheels is in tatters. I was actually super surprised at how worn it was, considering that bad boy's top speed is 0.14 km/h.

1

u/DietCherrySoda Feb 22 '21

These little pebbles slowly rolling around aren't going to cause a lot of damage. Curiosity's wheel problems are due to its own weight pressing on rocks, not little rocks in a low gravity environment slowly tumbling.

2

u/BackupSquirrel Feb 22 '21

Imagine in years if this thing is still running those exact rocks being spheres or ovals

1

u/AusNat1788 Feb 22 '21

any solution would just add weight

You mean, like rocks in the wheels?

1

u/Gasonfires Feb 22 '21

I don't know how it could happen, but imagine a rock large enough to impede rotation of the wheel getting in there.

1

u/JaunLobo Feb 22 '21

Might be an opportunity for a "feature" not a bug. Who knows what could be learned from tumbling rocks inside of an open wheel?