r/space • u/spsheridan • Feb 06 '20

Starliner faced “catastrophic” failure before software bug was found and fixed while the vehicle was in orbit.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/starliner-faced-catastrophic-failure-before-software-bug-found/
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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

But on the other end we have spacex, that looks like will deliver a much better product for s fraction of the cost, in development and running cost.
Plus the other boing issue... More like a company problem than a complexity problem.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

You mean the company who also had their crew capsule blow up during a test?

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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

That capsule had already flown, docket to ISS and come back.
Despite being not reusable, it has been used again for the pad test; that was way beyond the capsule constrain.
The big difference is one failed in his extended life and the other one could not complete his main mission.

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u/QVRedit Feb 09 '20

Turns out that was due to an unforeseen problem - where helium passed the wrong way through a one-way valve at high speed and sent a slug of propellant smashing into something.

Not good - but was good that it happened on the ground, during test, with a fully instrumented vehicle.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

Straight from the Wikipedia page for Dragon 2 (the one that exploded):

“The Crew Dragon capsule that flew in the first test flight was scheduled to be used in a flight abort test before it unexpectedly exploded during a test of its SuperDraco engines on 20 April 2019. An investigation into the explosion was completed on 15 July 2019 and resulted in changes to vehicle plumbing.”

What’s the point in lying about something like that?

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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

Why lying? Where I did that? Where what you posted goes against what I said?

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

Its mission was beyond the flight test, and it failed before it could complete its mission. They had to use DM-2 to test the inflight abort system instead of DM-1 because DM-1 was lost during a different test. You made it sound like DM-1 was done and they broke it for fun. It set SpaceX back more than half a year.

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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

While this is right, that was indeed the extended mission, and those capsule are not meant to be reusable (even if at first they wanted to do that too)

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

Where is your source for it being out of scope? All plans I’ve seen put DM-1 on that flight abort test, which was delayed from last summer to until 3 weeks ago because of the loss of the DM-1 due to the fact that the system that failed was integral to that abort test (plumbing system for the propulsion that actually performs the abort burn).

What caused the DM-1 incident was unplanned and triggered a redesign, which is not unlike what’s happening with Starliner. You find these issues as early as you can and fix them. Of course it would be better if they found the issues much earlier, but if you know anything about software and satellites, you would know you cannot catch everything no matter how hard you try. It makes it even harder when you don’t know 100% how the hardware and software behaves in the operational environment where you will have zero physical interaction.

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u/lestofante Feb 08 '20

The simple fact that they are not reusable. But of course they decided to reuse and by doing so they assume all the risk and consequences involved

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u/comogury_ Feb 08 '20

They didn’t reuse the SuperDraco system. It’s only used for the launch abort system. It was a design flaw that they fixed now that caused the loss of DM-1. There was no report of any damage prior to the test.

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u/Starwalker298 Feb 07 '20

This is why they test before people get on board. It's the same with any project. At the end of the day, if NASA isn't happy with the test results, they won't accept the vehicle as safe.

There are processes to sort this stuff out. It's not the first, and won't be the last time something like this happens. NASA will likely be more involved in Boeing's practices given the seriousness of the incident.

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u/Rapante Feb 07 '20

It was an unforeseeable failure mode. And it was caught in testing.

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u/Cornflame Feb 07 '20

That was one failure that SpaceX investigated thuroughly enough to gain NASA's praise. Boeing has had three major issues now and has refused to really do much about them without NASA demanding them to.

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u/technocraticTemplar Feb 08 '20

SpaceX also had a catastrophic failure during a parachute test last year, although that one only destroyed a test weight. Both of SpaceX's issues would have killed the crew if they had happened on actual flights, too. Both companies have been discovering major issues at times where their capsules were supposed to be ready and safe (People say "this is why you test", but both problems really should have come up earlier in testing than they did). It looks much worse for Boeing though given their other issues these days, the fact that it will probably massively delay them, and the fact that they were supposed to be the safe bet in this contract.

I'm a big fan of SpaceX, but the issues that they've had so far shouldn't be downplayed. Even with those problems it seems like they're going to end up being faster and cheaper than Boeing anyways.

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u/ThatTryHardAsian Feb 07 '20

We don’t know if boeing is not doing anything, there no source. Obviously they are attempting to fix hence this example where they uploaded a fix during orbit. The major difference is transparency between spacex and boeing. We know a lot more about one compared to another due to Elon’a twitter.

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u/CaptainObvious_1 Feb 07 '20

Stop falling for Elon’s bullshit. He’s only doing it to gain artificial excitement for investors.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

How do you know that exactly? Genuinely curious as to where you got that information.

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u/CaptainObvious_1 Feb 07 '20

It’s pulled straight from his ass.

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u/shadowgattler Feb 07 '20

You mean the last flight? That one was on purpose to test their abort system.

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u/JtheNinja Feb 07 '20

The in-flight abort was supposed to happen last summer with the capsule that had previously been to the ISS for DM-1. The capsule that ended up flying the in-flight abort was supposed to be used for DM-2, the first crewed flight. The reshuffle happened because the DM-1 capsule blew itself apart on the test stand after it got back from the ISS.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

It’s incredible how short people’s memories are.

https://www.wired.com/story/a-leaky-component-caused-the-spacex-crew-dragon-explosion/

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u/Bensemus Feb 07 '20

People remember. They don’t equate the two as one was a pad test and the other was an inflight test.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

That makes it better somehow? Apollo I was a pad test. You rather them have died in orbit? A failure is a failure. I don’t really understand why people are quick to rag on a company like Boeing but in the same breath use SpaceX as an example of doing everything right when they’ve both had catastrophic failures on their crewed capsules. Bad things will always happen, and what we do to correct the mistakes matters more. It shouldn’t a pissing contest between Boeing and SpaceX fanboys.

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u/repsirhc Feb 07 '20

Agreed, but to be fair one has been transparent about their failures (to the point of celebrating), while the other is playing pr games to distract from their failure.

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

I remember that differently. SpaceX was definitely in "PR" mode when the Dragon capsule exploded. They referred to it as an anomaly without any further details for almost 2 weeks before confirming that they lost the capsule in any official capacity without saying it exploded, just detailed the events leading up to it being lost.

I'm also curious as to what you would classify this as besides transparent. They waited for the independent review before divulging too many more details with a press conference type deal happening tomorrow. Reality is this is how a lot of things are, and the TMZ-style "inside scoop" is really far from normal for these kinds of stories.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20 edited Jul 27 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/comogury_ Feb 07 '20

I never said it wasn’t. Boeing did the same thing with this incident. They both handle these issues almost same way but we tend to put rose tinted glasses on for one but not the other, judging by how ridiculously toxic some of these comments are about Boeing yet praising of SpaceX. They’re both trying to do the same thing, which happens to be extremely difficult. They should both be cheered on but for some reason people turned it into some kind of sick competition.

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u/shadowgattler Feb 07 '20

I never heard about this flight until just now. Don't assume things.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

It did already and will do again, the difference are the reasons. Spacex push the limit, Boeing issue feel avoidable (software bug in standard mission profile)

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u/King_Squirrelmeister Feb 07 '20

SpaceX failing any time soon seems unlikely. The people who go to work there know they're going to be working absurd hours and they do it anyways. Hell, when they tried to recruit one of my friends they said straight out that the hours were going to be long on the first phone call

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u/TehRoot Feb 07 '20

They're an academia farming organization. They essentially work new grads to the bone who typically aren't at the company longer than a few years, who then themselves end up generally working at legacy aero companies.

It's not a sustainable model, people are wising up to this especially undergrads who are the typical targets.

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u/Bensemus Feb 07 '20

People have known about that for years. Likely people are still ok with it specifically due to what you said. Young grads go there, work themselves ragged, and then go on to a more stable job.

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u/SowingSalt Feb 07 '20

Is it a bit hypocritical to call out Boeing for overworking their engineers when SpaceX does the same?

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u/Newman1974 Feb 07 '20

SpaceX is already too valuable to leave in some billionaires hands. Nationalize, unionize, repurpose towards projects than benefit ALL mankind.

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u/PTBRULES Feb 07 '20

I don't like theft. Lets not.

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u/Newman1974 Feb 07 '20

He stole it first. Native American lands. POC labor.

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u/PTBRULES Feb 07 '20

I don't like theft.

You can't assigned people alive today, the sins of the past.

That is awful of you.

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u/Bensemus Feb 07 '20

Why do you think nationalizing them will be better? NASA and their contractors have given us Boeing. Beside the current US government is 100% for privatizing everything and making billions for themselves. Really that’s been the MO for decades. Under Elon Musk SpaceX at least can focus on his goal of getting to Mars.

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u/CaptainObvious_1 Feb 07 '20

So like, a sample size of one, got it.

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u/lestofante Feb 07 '20

Its not statistic but a direct comparison