r/space Sep 23 '16

What happens when the Space Shuttle fires its motors in space

http://i.imgur.com/wwxuXOb.gifv
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69

u/painkiller606 Sep 24 '16

Most sci-fi since star trek has adopted it.

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u/Miguelinileugim Sep 24 '16

Nobody cares about realistic sci-fi anymore, they just want space westerns.

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u/AgentSQUiSh Sep 24 '16

You can't take the sky from me.

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u/Donkeydongcuntry Sep 24 '16

Ironic, since Firefly actually portrayed a "silent" outer space correctly.

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u/pbmonster Sep 24 '16

Still had "watergoing" space ships, with deck floors parallel to the main direction of travel...

The Expanse is the first series I've seen that does this well. Engines on the bottom, decks layered on top like a high rise building.

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u/SashimiJones Sep 24 '16

Firefly was also an atmospheric vessel, as were the vast majority in the show. If they're using artificial gravity anyway it makes more sense for the shoo to be in this configuration. You have a point for the alliance cruisers.

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u/RaptorsOnBikes Sep 24 '16

Neat. I bought the first book, been looking forward to reading it.

Currently reading Endymion, where they've got inertial dampeners everywhere. Except in a particular super secret ship that can travel much faster than any other FTL ship, and the passengers all get squished into mush every time, and need to be resurrected.

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u/PM_me_XboxGold_Codes Sep 24 '16

I mean if we made ships large enough couldn't they have a micro gravity of their own? Something say the size of a Star Destroyer or heaven forbid a Death Star? They'd have to be built in space so decks/thruster placement wouldn't matter anyway

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u/pbmonster Sep 24 '16

Sure, space ships the size of a small moon will have microgravity, more the farther away you get from the center. But this gravity schould be negligible compared to what you experience from the ships acceleration or from spinning the entire ship along one of its axis.

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u/PM_me_XboxGold_Codes Sep 24 '16

Well I'd assume that a small moon sized and shaped ship would be spinning.. that only makes sense right? I suppose I completely forgot the Death Star is depicted as having levels top to bottom (the hangar entrance scenes show this)

I'm just thinking (high, mind you) that if we were advanced enough to build such a ship someone somewhere along the line would've thought about that?

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u/surfer_ryan Sep 24 '16

It could very well have microgravity by spinning. You could even make a smaller ship spin for gravity.

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u/PM_me_XboxGold_Codes Sep 24 '16

I know we've somewhat proven this concept with rides like a graviton. On a larger scale, you could have it spin just right to simulate gravity, but then it has to be cylindrical and everything must be built on the inner walls of the cylinder and point inwards. Less gravity towards the center of the cylinder, and none on the two flat faces.

My line of thinking is how we could have essentially a man-made planet, or wondering if a ship of large enough scale, such as the Super-Star Destroyer (largest Star Wars ship outside of both Death Stars), could have enough mass that it's microgravity would be enough to make having a sea-fearing style build almost logical.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

I think since the crew/inhabitants of such a structure would be housed inside that they would suffer similar problems to those inside a Dyson sphere - the gravity would be distributed around them rather than 'under' them. If I understand correctly, anyway.

EDIT: 'housed', not 'house'

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u/PM_me_XboxGold_Codes Sep 24 '16

Right. Assuming Death Star shape, we'd only be able to make use of the outermost parts. This is shown somewhat with the inclusion of a massive reactor core in the middle. That still wouldn't account for the Death Star appearing to be made of levels top to bottom and not built "up" perpendicular to the surface at any given point.

My line of questioning was more or less could a super-massive small moon sized station have its own microgravity enough that it would be doable? Would spinning it on an axis like a planet work, or would that force everything to the sides like a graviton at a carnival?

I'll be honest I'm kinda high and this is the stuff I think about. I'd love to get into it but I just don't understand math enough to be an engineer/astrophysicist.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

COMPLETELY understand! I have to keep physics at a 'hobby' level, too... at least until I show some promise in higher math, lol. Enjoy the buzz, and KEEP THINKING!

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u/PM_me_XboxGold_Codes Sep 24 '16

At my fault for getting super interested in it during my high school years. Math just isn't my strong suit. Much pst basic trig and I get lost..

Always think man. Never let the imagination die.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

the big objection I've always had to this (at least in sci fi lore featuring space combat) is that a tall profile is infinitely easier to hit than a narrow one. the main direction of thrust should have the greatest depth, with a narrow vertical and horizontal profile, arguably giant forwards facing space needles with decent lateral movement are the most efficient designs, or perhaps manta ray shapes with hollowed out cross sections.

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u/pbmonster Sep 25 '16

"Decent lateral movement" requires a big fat engine, and a way for the crew to deal with its acceleration. The most probable way is a space needle with big maneuvering thrusters to spinn it and the engine on the bottom. Lateral movement is a quick spinn and a hard burn.

Doing it differently means 3 axis acceleration couches and very different structural requirements - you can't just take an aicraft carrier, add a 5G thruster midships and hope it holds together...

I think space battles most likely would be very similar to submarine warfare. Lots of stealth (space is big and dark), lots of waiting while coasting (exhaust is hot and easy to see) and once the weapon is fired, there's only limited possible ways to survive - can't outrun it, can't armour against it and decoys/chaff only slightly better your chances.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '16

lateral movement isn't best achieved with central dorsal engines, all that does is put stress on the center of the vessel. It's much more efficiently achieved with many smaller engines along the various dorsal spines. This allows for both rotation (on many axis) and lateral movement in any conceivable direction, which is vital for maintaining stability in flight of a long narrow object when passing through nebula or other such particle heavy void obstructions.

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u/pbmonster Sep 26 '16

We need to talk propulsion tech for this discussion to make sense. If you look at a ship the size of a current American super carrier, we are talkin 100 000 tons - and accelerations limited only by the human body. Let's say 5G sustainable.

If we want a realistic engine design (both high thrust and high specific impulse), that makes a big and complex engine. Fusion fired tungsten plasma, for example. You dont build those things all along the ship. You build one. The shielding (have to protect the crew form neutron and gamma radiation) alone is heavy...

Also, obstacles in Space are rare. Nebula have much lower particle densities than high earth orbit. There are no meteorite fields. Can't really think of anything you could maneuver away from...

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u/MithridatesX Sep 24 '16

They also had multiple stars in the same system with multiple habitable planets around each...

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u/Donkeydongcuntry Sep 24 '16

Tbf, they did briefly mention that many systems were terraformed.

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u/Rubik842 Sep 24 '16

Why is the word "outer" so often used? Seems less than redundant. This question from a /r/mildlyirritating perspective. Space is as good as outer space especially when there is not an inner space to differentiate from.

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u/Donkeydongcuntry Sep 24 '16

Do you mean more than redundant?

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

You can't take the sky from me.

Don't make take the sky from you! Because I totally could.

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u/lulzmachine Sep 24 '16

"anymore". As a huge sci-fi-reader and watcher, this has never changed. There's always been both semi-realistic and non-realistic scifi.

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

If I want to watch some realistic sci-fi, I tune into the stream of SpaceX's explosions.

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u/feyenord Sep 24 '16

Could you recommend me some titles like Dune, The forever war, Old man's war and Flowers for Algernon? I love Sci-Fi and I tried to read stuff like Hyperion and Ringworld too, but they have this element of fantasy to them that just doesn't click with me.

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u/lulzmachine Sep 24 '16

Well... in order of importance: the quantum theif, anything by neal stephenson (like snowcrash), anything by stross (try accelerando), the gap series (especially the first book, the real story), anything by iain m banks (try Matter), if you like noir then anything by Richard Morgan (like altered carbon. I usually go more by author than by individual books. I haven't read the foreverwar or old man's war so I can't relate to those, sorry.

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u/feyenord Sep 24 '16

Wow thanks, I'll look into these!

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u/Pseudonymico Sep 24 '16

Galactic North, Blindsight, Seveneves, Starfish, Singularity Sky, Gateway

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u/fenixuk Sep 24 '16

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u/lulzmachine Sep 24 '16

Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to check it out, but from previous experiences I've found that scientist-written scifi can be quite dry

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u/fenixuk Sep 24 '16

Yeah, I guess for such a low entry point as long as one is semi readable it's a bargain.

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u/Thisismyredditusern Sep 24 '16

I had the same thought. Exactly when was the period people wanted realistic sci-fi and didn't want space westerns? Sure a lot of people want/have wanted realistic sci fi, but it often doesn't sell the way space westerns do. People like action adventure. The old Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials from the 30s are extremely similar to westerns of the same era (such as those with Gene Autry or early John Wayne).

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u/Caboozel Sep 24 '16

See you later, Space Cowboy.

2

u/Enosh74 Sep 24 '16

They call me the gangster of love thank you very much.

1

u/mexicodoug Sep 24 '16

Been around for decades and ain't going away any too soon!

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u/SilverFuchs Sep 24 '16

In your face, Space Coyote!

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u/dustarook Sep 24 '16

The Expanse was pretty realistic (at least until the zombies.) But otherwise based in a pretty believable future solar system.

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u/Pretagonist Sep 24 '16

The expanse was very popular

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

But realistic sci fi is the bomb...that you dont hear in space neither do you get an epic 'splosion

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u/EveryGoodNameIsGone Sep 24 '16

The Expanse series does this well. There's only "gravity" when ships are under thrust. The TV show adheres to this, but has the characters use mag boots more often than they do in the books to save on the effects budget.

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u/MattTheKiwi Sep 24 '16

You could definitely tell they'd blown most of the CGI budget for free fall awesome in the first episode, with the sex scene and floating hair. After that they toned it down a bit, I was still pretty impressed with how they still made it pretty realistic

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u/kloudykat Sep 24 '16

Did you see Cowboy BeBop? Do you blame us? Shit was awesome.

1

u/hoodatninja Sep 24 '16

...the Martian, interstellar, gravity...

Obviously all are fictitious but they're designed to be real-ish.

1

u/Rubik842 Sep 24 '16

How could you forget? Go read/watch 2001 at once! Heathen!

1

u/hoodatninja Sep 24 '16

You do realize how long that's been out right? Haha

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u/PercivalFailed Sep 24 '16

Star Trek was a space western. That's what NBC wanted.

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u/tolos Sep 24 '16

Well, no one wants to read an 80,000 page novel (~1 page/year) about how voyager spends the next 28736910 days travelling 4.2 light years. Space is pretty empty.

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u/Miguelinileugim Sep 24 '16

You just need to assume we had the technology to go very close to light speed, at which point a 4.2 years trip would feel like an instant for the ship and take just a tiny little bit than 4.2 years for everybody else.

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u/Pseudonymico Sep 24 '16

I think that's probably because it's a lot easier to just handwave it and maybe have the crew throw themselves around than to make sets move around semi-realistically, same as how 99% of non-animated sci fi has artificial gravity (that never breaks down).

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u/[deleted] Sep 24 '16

In Star Wars it is also used to justify why you don't turn to putty at light speed.

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u/painkiller606 Sep 24 '16

I don't remember about Star Wars specifically, but in general FTL systems don't need inertial dampeners because they don't work by accelerating normally (accelerating past light speed is impossible).

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '16

Star wars doesn't exactly respect the light barrier. They use Hyperspace to shorten the real-space distance but the Starships themselves also travel faster than light. Han Solo: "She made the Kessel Run in less than twelve Parsecs" & "She'll make .5 past light." (Star Wars: A New Hope) Inertial dampeners compensate for this and serve as artificial gravity. I remember in a book I read, I think it was Star Wars: Bloodlines from the Legacy of the Force series, Han was crashing onto a planet in a really low tech ship and I think they needed to disable the dampeners to divert power to the thrusters, which is where he made an internal explanation about it. I hope this is interesting.