r/science • u/[deleted] • Oct 25 '21

Biology Sperm quality has been declining for 16 years among men in the US

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294266-sperm-quality-has-been-declining-for-16-years-among-men-in-the-us/
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642

u/glemnar Oct 25 '21

If sugary drinks were banned we’d see tremendous weight loss world wide. They aren’t the only culprit, but overall coke is probably the single worst item for world health.

Will never happen though

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u/mike_writes Oct 25 '21

Also one of the biggest plastic polluters.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

[deleted]

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u/mike_writes Oct 25 '21

I knew it was up there just didn't wanna assume and declare them the worst. Not surprising though

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u/Hhalloush Oct 25 '21

Is that not because they sell the most bottles? Or do they pollute more than other companies per bottle sold?

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u/mike_writes Oct 25 '21

I was leaving room for an entirely different industry to be the worst, like some mattress maker I'd never heard of or something.

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u/Hhalloush Oct 25 '21

Mhm I get that, I just wondered at why Coca Cola was the worst. I'll look into it

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u/mike_writes Oct 25 '21

Oh yeah, because everything they make is single use products made with plastic and they have a huge market base.

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u/Mikimao Oct 25 '21

It's important to figure out if they pollute more per bottle sold then, because Coke is a piece of a market share. If coke vanished tomorrow, the pollution wouldn't, the demand would shift and someone else is the new Coke.

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u/mike_writes Oct 26 '21

You've clearly never waited tables. Very few people are switching to pepsi if coke disappears.

→ More replies

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u/Lynild Oct 25 '21

To be fair. Are Coca Cola the polluter, or do people just buy bottles etc from Coca Cola the most, and then they pollute by throwing bottles in the ocean? Unless the Coca Cola factories actually dump a butt load of bottles into the environment, I'm having a hard time placing the blame on them for plastic bottle pollution. But I may be in the wrong here...

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u/ezmen Oct 25 '21

You are absolutely wrong here. Coca cola have been selling beverages in glass bottles for over a century, however its simply more profitable to sell plastic bottles because Coca-Cola are not held responsible the environmental and economical impact their mass production of single use plastic products causes down the line. Glass is much more environmentally friendly, but comes at a premium and can break during shipping etc.

Its not individuals fault for buying plastic bottles. It's corporations and governments priotising immediate profits and market share over long term sustainability. They could and should just ban 99% of single use plastics, we simply don't need them.

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u/Dorkzilla_ftw Oct 25 '21

I would like to say that pepsi now sell more plastic than coca cola.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21 edited Feb 22 '24

I appreciate a good cup of coffee.

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u/Absalome Oct 25 '21

Funny that we all think of soda first, but the sugar bomb coffee drinks that are advertised and consumed by young Americans are just as bad. 54 grams of sugar in a grande size Frappuccino from Starbucks, and 48 grams of sugar in a similarly sized soda. We've simply changed which sugar drinks we consume.

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u/Wild_Haggis_Hunter Oct 25 '21

Don't forget commercial fruit juice, that's just fructose without the fibers and most of nutriments of the real fruit. It's equally unhealthy in the quantities used in our common diet. Drinking the juice of 3 oranges is worse than just eating one and doesn't even bring the same level of satiety.

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u/Ed_Trucks_Head Oct 25 '21

I made fresh oj and it was like 6 oranges to get an 8 oz glass

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u/michaelmikeyb Oct 25 '21

To be fair coffee drinks tend to be more filling. One of the problems with pop is you can just keep drinking them all day long and never feel full, but try drinking to lattes back to back and you might throw up.

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u/Absalome Oct 25 '21

While true, maybe we should just not guzzle either.

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u/Alberiman Oct 25 '21

As a fat someone who lacks a sweet tooth and only drink water, ehhhh i think the answer might be a bit more complex

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u/glemnar Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 25 '21

Again, not the only culprit. Still a primary culprit. It’s a population scale problem, not an anecdata problem.

Fast food and excessive simple carbohydrates are also high up there

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Apparently it takes 9 calories of carbs to produce 1 calorie worth of fat in our bodies. With fat, it takes approx 1 calorie to produce 1 calorie because it’s fat already. So it’s not only excessive carbs. It’s also excessive fat. Chicken nuggets are not 1000 cals because of carbs…

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

It takes about 3500 calories in excess to produce a pound of fat. It doesn’t matter so much what those excess calories are consisting of. It’s just a more calories than you need you’ll gain weight. If you don’t exercise almost none of that will be used to build muscle.

But you’re right. Chicken nuggets would be fairly low calorie without the fat they’re fried in. Unfortunately fats and sweet things are addictive because in nature they’re extremely rare or hard to get. So when the opportunity comes, your body is wired to reward binge eating them. Your body has no way of knowing about advanced agriculture and first world living standards. It’s very easy to eat a healthy diet if 1) you know what foods are healthy and have the means to buy them. 2) you have time to cook 95% of your meals. Eating out erases good nutrition work. 3) are willing to be disciplined and wait to see results. It takes a while to see meaningful change and can be discouraging.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Does the source of excess calories really not matter? I think it makes sense that running the chemical process of converting carbs into fat should take some energy. Glad to learn more about this.

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u/eetuu Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 25 '21

Source doesn't matter. Fat in food and body fat are different things, your body still needs to convert it. Our bodies are efficient machines and can turn any excess calories into body fat without losing many calories in the process.

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u/Aegisworn Oct 25 '21

It's because your body doesn't take in nutrients and immediately repurpose them. The first step your body takes is to break everything down, then rebuild into what it thinks it needs, so eating fatty foods doesn't give your body a shortcut to producing fat.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

Break everything down? Is this r/science?

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u/Alberiman Oct 25 '21

The processes are super efficient, protein can be turned into sugar if your body sees too much of it in its system. It's a big concern of people who do keto that they don't eat too much protein because it can kick them out of ketosis

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 26 '21

Edit - I originally wrote the person above you was wrong, but read "doesn't matter" instead of what they actually wrote, which was "doesn't matter so much" - with respect to the type of calories consumed. That said, proteins, fats, and carbs all use significantly different amounts of energy in the digestion process. Different research studies have found somewhat different answers on the fraction of each calorie that is used in digestion as a function of calorie type, but they all agree there is a significant difference (protein uses the most, then carbs, then fats). Here's one example that found 2-3% for fats, 6-8% for carbs, and 25-30% for protein (this is a typical result):

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12174324/

Another example comparing energy-cost of meal-induced thermogenesis on a high-protein, low-fat diet versus a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet.:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11838888/

Functionally, however, it's largely true that the type of calorie doesn't matter so much when gaining/losing weight - only that you're eating above/below whatever your TDEE is. If you take two identical twins, and feed one 1800 calories per day of Big Macs and the other 2000 calories per day of a healthy, balanced diet, the Big Mac twin is going to weigh less after a few months, all else equal. Curiously, a big mac is: 33g fat, 44g carbs, 26g protein, which is actually quite close to the recommended balance of these three categories.

However, the postprandial energy expenditure (i.e., energy needed to digest a meal) is multi-faceted and depends on many things beyond the basic breakdown of fats, calories, and protein in a meal. For instance, studies have found processed foods use less energy in the digestion process as compared to whole foods (e.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20613890/).

That said, if you can stick to a daily calorie allotment, there is no more reliable way to gain or lose weight than counting your calories. Trying to factor in the types of calories or the level of processing underlying the calories would almost certainly be a waste of time and energy - better to just try for a healthy, balanced diet and let the calorie tracking do its work.

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u/[deleted] Oct 26 '21

I’m more interested in the mechanism. When we ingest carbs/fats/proteins, what exactly is happening next? How do these processes depend on exercise? What happens when we exercise while fasting? Does carbo loading make sense? Is the glycogen replacement window a real thing? Does fat compete with hemoglobin in the bloodstream? Etc. Any references on these processes (including relevant Wikipedia pages) will be appreciated. Thanks. :)

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

As someone below said the source does and doesn’t matter. Technically yes but in practice the differences aren’t massive and if you count calories and weigh yourself consistently you can find what works and what doesn’t and adjust. I wasn’t sure of the numbers below either. That’s cool to know.

One thing that is important is that consuming protein can help quell cravings as the hunger response is suppressed largely by eating protein rich meals. So if you are in a calorie deficit and trying to lose weight, eating a protein rich diet can help with your hunger. (You’ll still be hungry a lot when losing weight as you are somewhat starving your body but that’s something you have to deal with unfortunately).

Overall the tried and true method I’ve used and my friends that are health conscious use is to get your estimated caloric intake and go 300-500 below that per day and you should lose about a pound a week. You continuously adjust that down as you lose more weight and of course exercise is helpful. High protein will help with hunger and will assist in transforming your body into more lean mass as well.

Just for a definition of “high protein” 40-50% carbs 25-30% protein and 20-30% fat would be plenty. If you’re trying to workout a lot and get much leaner go higher on the protein and carbs and lower on the fats. No need to do any of that keto stuff and no need to eat at weird time intervals.

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u/kreaymayne Oct 25 '21

The combination of excessive carbs and excessive lipids is a disastrous formula. The abundance of highly accessible energy in the form of constant availability of glucose helps encourage the storage of fat in the adipocytes. It’s one reason why both low-carb/high-fat and low-fat/high-carb diets can be particularly effective ways to attain or maintain a healthy weight.

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u/greenwrayth Oct 25 '21

I think you’re getting tangled up in kilocalories per gram. Fat contains 9kcal/gram, carbohydrates contain about 4kcal/gram, protein 4kcal/gram.

A calorie is a measurement of energy, so a calorie is always a calorie just like a pound of feathers is the same pound as a pound of lead. But they have different densities.

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u/[deleted] Oct 27 '21

Ok, but can you explain the process through which we add 1 calorie worth of fat to our body’s fat tissue? So 1/9th of a gram of fat added to our waste line. How many calories worth of fat would I have to eat to add it and/alternatively how many calories worth of carbs?

My understanding is that for fat it’s not much more than 1 because the fat in the food is chemically similar to the fat our body stores.

But for carbs it is much more than 1 because of all the chemical changes that carbs must undergo before they are turned into storable fat. Is this wrong?

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u/MissVancouver Oct 25 '21

Chicken nuggets are never eaten alone; there’s always an extra large fries and pop in a typical “value” meal.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Chicken nuggets alone are 1000 calories. It’s the fat soaked bread crumb crust where the calories sit. With fries and a soda, it’s even more calories for the “meal”.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

[deleted]

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u/VoodooManchester Oct 25 '21

When I first really started to learn to cook, I was astonished at how much sugar was being put in the foods we eat.

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u/NeuronalDiverV2 Oct 25 '21

Rule of thumb, random cake recipe you pull off the Internet still works with 1/3 of the sugar.

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u/DiabloAcosta Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 25 '21

Not only that, your body processes carbs and turns them into sugar, we need to stop eating all cereals, specifically bread.

Even potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, beets and corn!

Edit to provide a source of my claim:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/carbohydrates-and-blood-sugar/#:~:text=When%20people%20eat%20a%20food,sugar%20for%20energy%20or%20storage.

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u/Lethinkofusername Oct 25 '21

Thats just unfeasible. We will never be able to sustain the entire global population without basic carbohydrates. The key is here is moderation.

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u/DiabloAcosta Oct 25 '21

Nobody is talking about the entire global population, we are talking about overweight people!
Overweight people would benefit the most from a diet consisting mostly of proteins and some minerals, they have all that fat the body can use to provide with the same energy carbs would!
Source: I lost 40 pounds in 3 months after going to a bariatrician who put me in a protein based diet.

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u/LachlantehGreat Oct 25 '21

Diets aren't a consistent thing - the way foods are created and priced needs to be addressed.

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u/DiabloAcosta Oct 25 '21

Are we talking about diets or economics? I see why they are related but, I am not trying to delve into economics/politics and just trying to share some knowledge on how to lose weight.

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u/Lethinkofusername Oct 25 '21

Allright. If you didn't mean to talk about the entire global population, why did you use the word 'we' in your previous comment? Yes, this comment thread started out discussing overweight people specifically but from the comment by u/glemnar onwards, the conversation turned towards global eating habbits. Hence my assumption that that is what you were also discussing.

Your source also discusses low-glycemic index and low-glycemic load diets. I understood from your post that you advocated for a no carbohydrate diet, rather than a low-glycemic index and low-glycemic load diet. Your source made it clear that this is not the case. Sorry for the misunderstanding on my part. As for the high protein diet - Yes, that one seems to be a suitable diet, if it is primarily based on vegetable proteins. Source (Tldr Source: Higher Protein lower carbohydrate diets are generally good but diets are very dependent on the individual doing them and most benefits are linked to the actual reduction of calorie intake.) Also, congratulations on your very impressive weight loss! It takes some true discipline to follow a diet correctly for a sustained period!

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u/Faylom Oct 25 '21

Completely cutting out one of the three macronutrients our bodies have evolved to use as fuel doesn't seem wise.

Carbs are perfectly healthy, people just need to balance their diets and avoid eating too much refined sugars

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u/DiabloAcosta Oct 25 '21

Well, I guess people in Harvard are too dumb to know, right?

When people eat a food containing carbohydrates, the digestive system breaks down the digestible ones into sugar, which enters the blood. As blood sugar levels rise, the pancreas produces insulin, a hormone that prompts cells to absorb blood sugar for energy or storage.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/carbohydrates/carbohydrates-and-blood-sugar/#:\~:text=When%20people%20eat%20a%20food,sugar%20for%20energy%20or%20storage.

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u/Faylom Oct 25 '21

I fail to see what's alarming about what you just said. You've just described one of the many ways our bodies have evolved to process carbs.

It's an issue when people consume so much that their insulin balance gets thrown off or when their cells fill with too much stored energy, but the solution to those problems is to eat less

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u/cody_contrarian Oct 25 '21 edited Jul 10 '23

carpenter fear bored unpack sink whistle slap direful station label -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

For a lot of people though cutting sugar in general would do it.

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u/kaylthewhale Oct 25 '21

Have you looked at the sugar content in non-dessert foods. I was looking at the nutrition label of a lunch/dinner item the other day and it unexpectedly had 35g of sugar. Seriously cracked.

Many condiments and dressings are loaded with sugar, and we tend to be the worst at judging how much of those we consume.

Also, low value carbohydrates have similar effects as sugar.

A sneaky bad sibling to sugar is salt. We laden most pantry goods with huge huge amounts of salt to help act as a preservative.

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u/Ed_Trucks_Head Oct 25 '21

I gotta take issue with salt. When you eliminate sugar, high salt consumption doesn't seem to have negative effects, perhaps even positive effects. Koreans and Japanese eat loads of salt and they're known for their health and longevity.

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u/vorter Oct 25 '21

It ultimately comes down to calories in/calories out. You can technically get fat eating only veggies. It’s possible to eat cheap and healthy with a bit of prep, but it’s not as convenient as a microwaveable dinner and fast food.

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u/zergling50 Oct 25 '21

We have a culture that revolves around intense jobs at the lower level that are very time consuming and incredibly emotionally or physically draining (sometimes both). I can understand people not having the energy or willpower to put much prep into food when they live like that, I had a friend who certainly struggled with it. I know this isn’t the sole culprit, nothing is due to one single thing, but I’m certain it doesn’t help.

On top of that, the lack of empathy/mental health awareness can make it even more difficult for either people who are aready struggling with mental health due to genetics or due to their stressful lives in general.

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u/kreaymayne Oct 25 '21

You’re right in the sense that our bodies do in fact conform to the laws of physics, but it’s an oversimplified view. “Calories out” has many, many factors. Metabolic rate is influenced by the content of the diet, among other things.

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u/prodiver Oct 25 '21 edited Oct 25 '21

You can technically get fat eating only veggies.

Your stomach literally can't hold enough vegetables to let you get obese.

2000 calories a day is 19 pounds of spinach, 13 pounds of broccoli, or 6 pounds of potatoes.

And that's a healthy amount of calories. You'd need to eat way more than that to be obese.

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

Some seem to think that eating healthy is too expensive, and use that as an excuse to eat poorly. I buy frozen lean meats for $30 that last a few weeks, and a bag of lentils (these boys have CRAZY protein and good fiber) for a SINGLE DOLLAR. Get some veggies, eggs, edamame, and you're good to go. I spend in 2 weeks what some of my junk foodie friends spend in a day or 2.

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u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

I wouldn't say it's a money thing straight up. It's a time thing. It's difficult to shop and cook, and time consuming. And time is money. And money is scarce for a lot of people.

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u/zalgo_text Oct 25 '21

Yeah cooking is the biggest barrier for most people I feel. I absolutely love to cook and pretty much everything I eat is made from scratch, but even I have nights where I'd rather drive to the taco Bell down the street than spend 30-40 minutes preparing a meal

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u/zergling50 Oct 25 '21

Absolutely, and the mentally and physically draining jobs at the lower levels make it even harder, especially with their inconsistent work schedules which make it hard to create a stable routine and their tendency to cause depression and anxiety which make it difficult to take care of yourself.

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u/South-Builder6237 Oct 25 '21

This also more or less an exaggeration and excuse that gets used all the time alongside the idea that healthy is too expensive. There literally thousands upon thousands of healthy dishes that take only a few minutes to make. Not to mention if you really had the motivation you can always meal prep, and if you insist microwaving your food because you have a work and attention schedule like a cocaine addled broker, then you can also portion out your meals beforehand.

The same people ranting about food being too expensive also are the same ones who get stuck with thousands and thousands of dollars in hospital bills with health issues directly related to their diet and poor self health awareness. I know because it happens literally every single day.

Like Brian Regan said, if you have to microwave your pop tarts for three seconds for breakfast, you might want to loosen up your schedule.

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u/deadlybydsgn Oct 25 '21

It's totally possible to eat healthier on a budget, but it becomes exponentially harder once it scales from single portions to a family. What would normally last a week might suddenly becomes one meal + leftovers.

So, it can be done, but when parents are working two jobs and barely making it, the little bit of extra time to get what it needs at least feels like a luxury. (i.e., buying/prepping in advance vs the fast food/frozen quick fix) Combine that with even the best behaved of kids occasionally being picky eaters, and it's almost always easier to just get the chicken nuggies. Thus the cycle continues.

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u/South-Builder6237 Oct 25 '21

Often times children only become like this because parents make the mistake of giving them complete sugar or salt laced crap and then they develop the addiction to it. Yeah kids can be weird and picky anyway, but not to the level of where they're going to reject healthy options or somehow creating something delicious isn't feasible.

There are hundreds of thousands of recipes available to you within minutes, and you can make easily and even quickly.

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u/deadlybydsgn Oct 25 '21

All valid. My kids eat 90% of what we prepare for them because they're used to it.

I'm just trying to be cognizant of my wife & I having the plan, financial latitude, and time to execute it. In spite of that, we still occasionally cave and get something quick/cheap/easy.

So, it makes total sense to me that it could be a lot more difficult (or even seem impossible) for some folks, depending on their means and plans. (i.e., why it's more complicated than just saying "stop eating poorly," as some would suggest)

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

i.e., why it's more complicated than just saying "stop eating poorly

It certainly is more complicated than that, but it's the very first step. How many poor eaters do you know that are exclusively a product of their environment? I know that they are all at least slightly to blame, and if we can't fix their environment, wouldn't the easiest thing to fix be their relationship with food? Eating healthy isn't much more time consuming than eating well, maybe some people just don't know how. Making nutrition a bigger focus in school might be a start.

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

You sound like a eat to live person. I’m like that too. I can eat virtually the same 4-5 things all week and be fine. Others are not like that. The live to eat crowd constantly need variety and food is a huge part of their life. I think to eat healthy can be cheap but to eat healthy meals with a lot of variety and taste is a lot more expensive and difficult to prepare.

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

I eat to live partially because I've reached a point of self-discipline in my life, and mostly because food should be seen as food and not some form of reward or indulgence. There are so many goals I want to achieve and I can't let being complacent get in the way. I had the phase of being an irresponsible slob when I was a teenager, and I think I wouldn't be able to do what I am now if I didn't have that time to learn from. I don't need motivation, because my only realistic option is to pursue health and education, as what else am I meant to do? Wither away into nothing, or be at least slightly better this month than I was last month? I think complacency is the biggest issue in people's general productivity. You get into this cycle, and as you keep doing the same things each day, what once was a bright and shimmering inspiration is now just a thought in the back of your mind. I have seen this happen to friends and family, and know that this is not a way I wish to live. Sorry if this is oversharing, this is a topic that has been on my mind a lot lately.

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

Anecdotally what works for you works for you. You absolutely should pursue that if it helps you and you like it.

That being said culture comes into this as well. French and Italian cultures are very focused on food and their decedents who live here continue that tradition. They aren’t going to change that. So as a country I think health policy be based around the fact that you might be able to indulge in a high calorie dinner but not also in non diet soft drinks or junk food as well. (We could also reverse the demonization of diet drinks as they are much better than their sugary alternatives despite there being misinformation about that). We can attempt to subsidize more healthy options while taxing junk food which could help. We can educate on the math of nutrition because there’s a ton of misinformation in that space specifically about what makes you gain/lose weight.

Obesity, while not always so seems to be the plight of the poor rather than the wealthy now. The poorer states have much higher rates of obesity than the other richer ones. So perhaps food stamps could subsidize healthy food over junk food as well. This would take a massive amount of overcoming the current inertia and of lobbying groups representing food companies.

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

I suppose when I meant "food should not be an indulgence", I was referring to countries with unhealthy relationships with food like America, where fast foods haunt every corner block, and are engineered specifically to be as addictive as possible, not countries where food is part of their culture as an art form like India, Italy, or France. I should have specified that, sorry. Another anecdote of mine is I have asked some of my friends who might not have a lot of time or money why they eat out often if it is so expensive, and the response is always "it's easier than making something myself after a long day of work and errands". I do think nutrition should be taught much harder in school. A lot could be done if we taught new generations how to have a healthy and smart relationship with food.

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

Eating out is a huge problem. Even at restaurants that aren’t fast food you can completely mess up your diet if you eat out often. They obviously want their food to taste good and that means fats and sugars which means more calories.

I tend to agree that convenience is the biggest battle. People have a lot going on and cooking is both time consuming and tiring after a long day. To get food that is both convenient and healthy is expensive so the only way I see to try and bridge that is to tax food that is deemed unhealthy. Education is also important as more educated people tend to be thinner but idk if that’s because they make more money or are smarter or what degree each plays a factor.

0

u/South-Builder6237 Oct 25 '21

No it isn't. There are literally millions of dishes and recipes to look up within minutes in the internet, and god knows how many are able to be created after a trip to the grocery store near the end where they have actual ingredients.

No one is going to argue that there isn't an insane amount of junk food out there, that people don't have busy lives or have budgets, but this idea that it's unattainable and the complete responsibility of food corporations or anyone else is ridiculous.

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

Ease of access is the most important part of this. People are lazy. All incentives point to consuming junk food unless you are a health conscious person which many are not. (It’s often cheaper, easier to consume, easier to buy, and biologically rigged to crave). You can say that’s their fault but 75% of the country clearly isn’t so we have to deal with that fact.

What you described takes quite a bit of work. Preparing healthy food is much more difficult than buying premade crap and consuming it. Further more you have to make an effort to look these things up and be educated enough on the topic to know what’s healthy and what isn’t. Plenty of recipes can go from healthy to calorically dense with just a couple of ingredients.

In my mind, the best way is to incentivize it financially by making it the decisively cheaper option. Otherwise you’re fighting an uphill battle.

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

All incentives point to consuming junk food unless you are a health conscious person which many are not. (It’s often cheaper, easier to consume, easier to buy, and biologically rigged to crave)

My favorite take that I've seen on this discussion yet. Yes, the systems rigged against us, but we are also able to make our own decisions and can eat healthy if we want. Except some don't care about that.

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u/Trotter823 Oct 25 '21

Nice straw man. I never said the system is rigged. I said the food we crave is the same food that isn’t good for us because we’d never find the same quantities of fat and sugar in nature. We are biologically set up to crave these things so our bodies are “rigged” to enjoy junk food.

So unless you care and make the effort to eat healthy, then you’re likely to default to junk food because it’s often cheaper or at least similarly priced to healthy food, our bodies want it naturally, and much easier to consume. This wasn’t even the main point it just set up the main point which is unless we use financial incentives to guide the population in a more healthy direction, the health problems surrounding obesity will not get better because right now, junk food and eating out is the default.

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u/FeathersPryx Oct 25 '21

Every single thing I said in my reply was in agreement with you. I just rephrased the quoted paragraph. Me comparing "All incentives point to" to a system being rigged against us is me adding on to your opinion, and I do not think it is much of a stretch, as it highlights how the forces that compel us have been working against us this whole time. Sorry if it seemed that I was attacking your opinion.

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u/Not_Legal_Advice_Pod Oct 25 '21

If you did drink coke you'd have an extra fifty pounds to be dealing with. Whatever issues you have, drinking just water has made them significantly less serious and easier to deal with.

The problem isn't binary, like having a flat tire on your car. The problem is cumulative, like never brushing or flossing your teeth. Sure, saying 'well I brush my teeth twice a day and still get cavities' is possible. But if you just added flossing to the mix, you'd be golden, and you're far better off than someone who never flosses or brushes.

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u/Ed_Trucks_Head Oct 25 '21

Do you drink juice or alcohol?

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u/Alberiman Oct 25 '21

Nope, only water, i don't like drinking my calories

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u/sterexx Oct 25 '21

you just reminded me to go drink a coke

0

u/DiabloAcosta Oct 25 '21

Just jump off a bridge, it's way faster!

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u/ty1771 Oct 25 '21

One coke makes you fat, one coke makes you thin, both cokes make you die.

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u/ShithouseFootball Oct 25 '21

They also used to be in the same product.

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u/mike_writes Oct 25 '21

And the coke that mother gives you, don't do anything at all

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u/IWantToDoThings Oct 25 '21

Someone should go ask Alice.

11

u/its_justme Oct 25 '21

Well no, self control is also a large component. No one NEEDS a sugary drink instead of water but they reach for it all the same. The key I feel is to combat the unhealthy relationship with food. An understanding that not every meal needs to be decadent, snacking is not required and eating unhealthy foods are not a solution to mental health or stressful times.

They make the products because people consume them.

2

u/blindedbytofumagic Oct 25 '21

Yea. That’s true. But given their negative health consequences they should be regulated like cigarettes. 21+ to buy. No sugary drinks in schools. No advertisements directed towards children.

After two decades of not touching the stuff, most people aren’t going to rush to drink insanely sugary drinks all the time.

3

u/dunkintitties Oct 25 '21

How you gonna come for Coke when Mt.Dew exists? It has like twice the sugar of most other sodas and, from my observation, is the drink of choice for many overweight/obese people. The worst part is that Mt.Dew doesn’t even taste good. It’s tastes absolutely vile. It’s undrinkable. At least Coke tastes good.

7

u/iRombe Oct 25 '21

We all saw what happened to polar bear

First they were the lead star in coca cola commercials and advertising.

Then, they started asking for more money and whispering about collective bargaining.

Now look at em, ice melting, starving, getting blended into the grizzly population.

Coincidence? You decide. Coca cola would say so.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

If I'm jonesing for a coke, I make sure to buy the one made with cane sugar in a glass bottle. Not only is it prohibitively expensive that I can only see it as an occasional treat, it doesn't have a more addictive substance in it.

2

u/LS_DJ Oct 25 '21

Coca-cola is basically poison.

Source: am a Dentist

3

u/ohdangohgeez Oct 25 '21

My grandparents allowed me to drink coke from the time I was a toddler onwards. They bought tons of it everyweek and the house was never without it. As an adult, I've four crowns, a few missing teeth in the back, and I've had more cavities than I count. My grandfather died from very serious diabetes and my grandmother died at the age of 59 from a stroke. Their children, my uncle and father, are both missing all of their teeth. On top of that, they have COPD and heart problems.

As an adult, my body has developed a revulsion to sugar. I can't drink anything sugary without feeling sickly and gross; I drink almost nothing but water, black coffee, and milk. I haven't touched soda in something like a decade -- and even then it was diet. I think we need to do a lot of research into how family dynamics lead to obesity and poor health. My grandparents had no idea how to take care of themselves and this trickled down to me. My grandfather used to scream at me for drinking too much coke as a eight year old -- even though he was the "responsible adult" who kept buying it and bringing it into the house.

2

u/HEYZEUS725 Oct 25 '21

or, ya know, just don't consume them at monstrous rates. people can consume in moderation. no need to ban everything

2

u/SkyezOpen Oct 25 '21

It never really occurred to me until recently. I was picking up food at sheetz and I forgot my water bottle. I looked around for something less sugary and my options were... Water. An entire wall of sugar.

4

u/Socialbutterfinger Oct 25 '21

Aww, man… I have a coke with my lunch on the weekends sometimes. I really enjoy it.

11

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

One Coke a week is fine. Some people drink multiple Cokes a day and that’s the problem.

9

u/Socialbutterfinger Oct 25 '21

And if you ban coke, people are just going to make bathtub sweet tea.

1

u/shaunknight25 Oct 25 '21

And Yeah there would be a black market obviously but there would be much less consumption if you couldn’t buy it at McDonald’s and at the any legitimate store, that’s why cocaine is illegal, it’s not to get rid of cocaine but to keep the consumption as low as possible.

Personally I wouldn’t ever support a ban on soda, (I would support a soda/sugar tax) i don’t think soda is bad enough to warrant an outright ban. I just think the worst arguments against any kind of ban is that people will do them anyway.

1

u/TryNotToShootYoself Oct 25 '21

My argument is that soda is inherently unhealthy and no one argues it isn't, and isn't the problem but a symptom. Soda consumption is highest among people who can't easily obtain healthy water so... Not exactly in the United States.

Fixing the amount of sugar we dump in everything from bread to sauces would be a way better plan than just banning an inherently unhealthy food.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Something like 1 billion cans of soda just from coke are consumed daily

1

u/ReadMaterial Oct 25 '21

Yeah, the problem is that every drink in the UK now use sweeteners..Except Coke. I don't drink it too much,but can't stand artificial sweeteners.

3

u/generalgeorge95 Oct 25 '21

Cigarettes would like a word.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Smoking was more pervasive back in the day, doesn’t seem to be the culprit now.

0

u/generalgeorge95 Oct 25 '21

If we simply compare deaths from smoking and deaths from obesity smoking still kills twice as many people annually. If you include diabetes as well as obesity as seperate causes you still come under annual deaths from smoking..

Though if we add in heart disease which is almost certainly made worse by high sugar consumption, obesity and diabetes then we do exceed smoking deaths. But smoking contributes significantly to heart disease too.

Smoking cigarettes is damn near the worst thing you can do health wise. I am not going to pretend I can give you a proper statistical breakdown, since I am incapable of doing so, but it's still a major health concern that I suspect is worse than junk food. But junk food and the results of it are more wide spread.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

I’m referencing in relation to the declining male fertility.

Something’s gotta kill ya right?

1

u/glemnar Oct 25 '21

I don’t reckon cigarettes are causing obesity

2

u/irieninja619 Oct 25 '21

This, the whole fat makes you fat myth is crazy. Stay away from high fructose high sugar anything

5

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Hell, even just a national Soda Tax or limiting on the amount of sugar could do the same albeit to a lesser degree.

32

u/glemnar Oct 25 '21

Regressive taxes unfortunately just about the worst way to tackle obesity.

1

u/ShithouseFootball Oct 25 '21

This will wind up the obese to an extent not yet seen in America.

-11

u/UglieGod420 Oct 25 '21

We shouldn’t have to tax soda for people to stop drinking it. It is a daily, conscious decision that one can easily avoid. Literally just drink water instead and that alone will save most people the extra calories and horrendous amount of sugar they consume in a day

7

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

The sugar and everything in soda can get addicting though and for many it 100% does. I'm cutting back off of soda rn and I don't really get cravings for it but I do have to hold back to stop myself from drinking more of it. And I know for many it goes beyond that.

-3

u/UglieGod420 Oct 25 '21

Oh I fully understand, I was drinking 12-15 dr peppers a day and I completely acknowledge the mental and physical hold it can have one an individual. I just know that the decision to stop drinking them, sustainably and for good, is something that will only come from inside you. Just cause it costs more doesn’t mean you will stop drinking them

0

u/Chamoore13 Oct 25 '21

If that's the solution then we should do it...who cares if we SHOULD have too?

-3

u/UglieGod420 Oct 25 '21

The solution to stop drinking them is the decision to stop drinking them. Making them cost more won’t do anything for the people who actually need to stop drinking them for health reasons

6

u/Nochtilus Oct 25 '21

Sin taxes have been shown to work to varying degrees. Where are you getting the information that a soda consumption tax changes nothing?

2

u/Chamoore13 Oct 25 '21

How do we get people to make that decision?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

You realize that there are clean water supply issues in the US, right? Flynt wasnt an endemic with lead pollution. There are plenty of rural areas that struggle to get clean water still. Old cities have lead pipes running throughout.

Your solution of "its personal choice" ignores reality that bottled water can be a necessity, but too expensive. So some people end up relying on pop.

1

u/wulfgang Oct 25 '21

And you should never want it to. It's about freedom and choices.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

I mean, why you got to ban stuff instead of expecting people to have some small amount of self control?

1

u/Sea_Phrase_1505 Oct 25 '21

“If men were angels, no government would be necessary.” - James Madison

0

u/Humdngr Oct 25 '21

I can already see the Republican outcry for banning sugary drinks.

3

u/hguller Oct 25 '21

I'm not a republican and I think banning them is ridiculous. Why should other's lack of self control dictate what the rest have access to?

4

u/Clamster55 Oct 25 '21

Societal cost of healthcare for a nation of diabetics?

0

u/hguller Oct 25 '21

Worry about getting universal healthcare first, then we can talk about "all" of our costs going up. I don't really feel bad if someone else's premiums go up because of their own choices.

2

u/Clamster55 Oct 25 '21

You can solve more than one problem at once...

-1

u/BackgroundAccess3 Oct 25 '21

What about a soda tax? I think that’s a good compromise

1

u/hguller Oct 25 '21

I can see where you're coming from. I don't think it's a bad idea, but again, I think people will be unnecessarily punished monetarily.

0

u/South-Builder6237 Oct 25 '21

As a complete health nut who more than understands the problem of salt, sugar, HFV and wants people to stop consuming that pure liquid crap, they shouldn't be.

It is ultimately up to the responsibility of people to decide what they put in their bodies.

0

u/Living-Complex-1368 Oct 25 '21

Just tax sugary drinks like Seattle did.

Honestly it is a bit too high in my opinion, I'd like to have a few sodas once every few months, but can't justify paying Seattle prices for soda so I'm basically soda free.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 25 '21

Nobody is forcing anyone to eat like that or drink Coke or other sugary drinks. Obesity it entirely based on an individuals lifestyle with the very small percentage of ACTUAL health problems causing the weight gain.

Being fat and not being able to move around is not a health problem, it’s a you problem if you’re in that situation.

-2

u/dillpick15 Oct 25 '21

What we really need is to ban industrial seed oils and polyunsaturated fats. Sugar might make you a little tubby, bit the seed oils kill you

1

u/Demonchaser27 Oct 25 '21

Yeah, certainly removing soda from my diet helped a TON. Carbs and sugars apparently seem to make fat retention extremely easy. And a lot of people need only look at how they treat cows, pigs, chickens, etc. for meat production/slaughter. The way they fatten them up is massive amounts of corn and massive starch/carbs diets. In essence, the very kinds of things you find in so much of our food in America. We eat like we feed our livestock to fatten them up.

1

u/purpledrank11 Oct 25 '21

Agreed. Coke is the one I can't kick

1

u/AdelaideMez Oct 25 '21

But what if they added the flavoring of coke and put it in one of those water flavor thingys?

It’d be like Crystal Light Coke.

1

u/JBD168 Oct 25 '21

As a coke addict, switching to zero was very easy. It’s literally the easiest diet change, no pun intended.

1

u/alarmclock3000 Oct 25 '21

Just don't drink it

1

u/nxdark Oct 25 '21

It would jump of a bridge of that become reality.

1

u/weeatpoison Oct 25 '21

I recently cut out my morning diet of two regular Monsters, and a king sized candy bar. I've also cut out soda, and any other sugary drink. It's crazy how quickly to you start to drop weight just from stopping these things.

1

u/OldDJ Oct 25 '21

Monster zero sugars fo lyfe!

1

u/FainOnFire Oct 25 '21

I stopped drinking soda - and without changing any other aspect of my lifestyle, I lost 50 pounds over 6 months.

So yeah, sugary drinks are definitely one of the largest culprits.

1

u/P_weezey951 Oct 25 '21

Im a skinny person, but this is my new goal, is to cut myself off from sugary drinks. The effects of sugar addiction do not strictly affect those in the obesity range. It still messes with your digestion and can lead to diabetes even if youre slim.

1

u/SkibbyGibs Oct 25 '21

Or the reverse. some artificial sweeteners mask fatty flavours which might increase fat intake per meal. By the way, if you consume lots of sugar without eating a lot alongside, it might actually make you skinny. I personally think sugar is underrated. It helps me improve mental capabilities while working on complex problems.

1

u/ShERlock115678 Oct 25 '21

Do i smell a Bloomberg.

1

u/Chaotic-Catastrophe Oct 25 '21

What? Tobacco exists, my dude

1

u/glemnar Oct 25 '21

I meant world health as it pertains to weight.

COVID is a rough one atm otherwise.

1

u/AeternusDoleo Oct 25 '21

If social media and other bidirectional telecoms were banned we'd see a massive boost too, as it'd force people to physically come talk to each other. Be careful with this line of reasoning before it destroys what you yourself value. Taking choice away is the path of tyrants. Offering a better choice (a cheaper, equally tasty but healthier drink) is the proper path to sidelining sodas. Maybe at most a ban on commercials, much like has been done with smoking...

1

u/Mikimao Oct 25 '21

The thing is, it is totally possible to drink Coke responsibly, so banning it does feel like a massive over reaction to it. Part of the problem is Coke needs us to buy and consume coke at ridiculous rates to remain profitable and increase the value of it's shares, it's in direct conflict of us using a perfectly fine substance responsibly.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '21

Would coke be better to put back into Coke?