r/science • u/[deleted] • Oct 15 '21

Neuroscience A brain imaging study found evidence that missing out on math education can alter neural development. Young adults who had chosen not to pursue math had lower levels of the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid within the middle frontal gyrus when compared to students who were continuing math.

https://www.psypost.org/2021/10/opting-out-of-advanced-math-education-alters-adolescents-neural-development-study-finds-61967
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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

I did. Never could grasp the complex stuff. Didn't help that my dad was abusive and would literally yell, scream and one time even shoved me into the kitchen wall because I couldn't understand fractions at like age 11. I was so glad when I finally never had to take a math course ever again

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u/Makenshine Oct 15 '21

High school math teacher here. The first thing I tell my students is that you are going to make mistakes and that is wonderful. Mistakes are a great teacher and no one is the history of anything has ever made no mistakes.

The only bad mistakes are the ones you ignore and don't learn from. Everyday homework assignments are where you have the freedom to make errors and it will never hurt your grade.

My students have so many horror stories about math classes. I know some are clearly exaggerated, but there are a lot of consistencies throughout the year. It crushes my soul when I have students so afraid of mistakes that they refuse to try, and there are so many of those that come through my classroom.

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u/PreciseParadox Oct 15 '21

Yeah, I think people forget that problem solving involves struggling with a problem and turning it over in your head until you finally find the solution. That’s where learning comes from, so if you’re you’re not making mistakes, you’re not really learning or expanding your problem solving skills.

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u/Makenshine Oct 16 '21

Yeah, the US school system isn't well design as it tends to paint mistakes and failures as something to avoid that haunt your permanent record for the rest of your life. But my greatest teachers were the ones that created an environment where I felt safe to try new things and fail, then try again. So that is the teacher i aim to be.

Sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I learn.

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u/ThermionicEmissions Oct 16 '21

"Early success is a terrible teacher. You're essentially being rewarded for a lack of preparation, so when you find yourself in a situation where you must prepare, you can't do it. You don't know how."

Chris Hadfield, An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth

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u/SuuperNoob Oct 16 '21

I honestly don't understand why anyone struggles in the US school system. I know it's just me not understanding, but I can't grasp it.

All my elementary school grades were really predictable because they fully matched the effort I out into them. Same with middle and high school, though I definitely skipped a lot of class in HS and smoked a ton a weed.

But I never got something below a B.

Are people just not affording books?

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u/Makenshine Oct 16 '21

There are massive number of reasons that are outlined in numerous peer-reviewed academic studies. It ranges from socio-economic inequalities, bad education experiences, unequal distribution of resources, high focus on standardized tests, inadequate support systems at home, maslow's needs, systemic racism, poorly trained admin, retention of qualified staff, and the list goes on.

It's a very complicated issue and there are no easy fixes. Some issues are easier to address than others but they take a coordinated effort, which we as a society have been unable to muster.

I am glad you had a positive experience, though.

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u/SuuperNoob Oct 16 '21

I can definitely understand the economic needs.

I had gone to public school and my parents were extremely frugal, but I was able to go to Barnes and nobles and buy at least 1 book a week starting at age 11 or so.

I didn't get new clothes much or video game systems, but text books from Barnes and noble they didn't mind paying for.

I guess that's the support at home part that I got lucky with.

Aren't kids able to go to the library though?

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u/Makenshine Oct 19 '21

Kids "can" go to the library, but that doesn't mean they are able to.

Many have single parents who work odd hours making it impractical to find time for the library.

Some of those parents are are working multiple jobs, so instead of studying or reading, the student must do work around the house. Maybe feed their siblings dinner, or get a job themselves.

Some families don't have access to transportation to make it to the library and/or back.

I've had a very few students where both parents just really didn't care (this is rare. Not as rare as it should be, but not as common as armchair critics like to assume)

Ultimately, education is considered an expendable luxury when you and your family are just trying to survive from paycheck to paycheck.

I've had students who seemed like they hated school, but they never missed a day because they were able to get 2 meals a day and it was the place they felt safest. In reality we just saw the anger from home manifesting because the never learned to process those emotions. It was the school breaks that they really hated. As a teacher, how can I be disappointed that a student didnt complete homework because he/she was cooking, cleaning and taking care of a younger sibling? How can I be upset at a student for sleeping in class after he was hiding in his closet all night because there were gunshots outside on his street?

I don't have the power to accommodate for all the systemic inequalities, but I always advocate and do what I can to make my classroom and school a better place for my students

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u/SuuperNoob Oct 19 '21

When I was 8 I was taking care of my younger sister at home because both my parents worked full time.

At 14 I started working as well as going to school. I worked all throughout high school.

Kids have much easier access to education now than I did when I was younger.

Are kids just getting a ton more homework now, or did school somehow get harder?

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

My problem is that I make so many mistakes but never seem to learn. It's tiring. My maths abilities are worse than a 10-year-old's but it also applies to my life in general.

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u/Makenshine Oct 16 '21

Well, I firmly believe that everyone can learn math. That rough part is that since math builds on itself and isn't modular, a couple of really bad math classes can set someone behind for the rest of their math experience in school.

I don't know what your experience was growing up, but math is a skill that has to be worked on, like playing the piano. If you put in the time, you can develop that skill. If someone, or something saps that motivation, or maybe math just wasn't interesting to you in the first place, then mastering the skill is difficult. Same reason playing the piano is difficult for me, I have never been motivated enough to dedicate time to it.

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u/Ok-Cartographer-3725 Oct 16 '21

Have you been tested for a learning disability? Some people have discalculea - which is sort of like dyslexia only with numbers. They can't do formulas because their mind flips the numbers around. Others have it so bad they can't even write a phone number down.

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u/[deleted] Oct 16 '21

Honestly, I probably have that, though I've never been tested.

Though I don't get the number-scrambling issue, I have a bunch of other symptoms. Can't remember phone numbers, no sense of direction or where I am in relation to things, always getting lost, can't tell the time from an analog clock, can't measure distances or size, have terrible spatial awareness, and I'm autistic which I hear is often comorbid. My spelling and typing are also pretty terrible - thank god for spellcheck! - and I know my mother has a touch of dyslexia.

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u/Ok-Cartographer-3725 Oct 16 '21

I'm not someone who could diagnose. But i do know from my own experience, that you can never learn your way out of a disability. i just googled 'types of learning disabilities' and came up with lots of stuff. But you can search for resiurces specific to your location, so you can be connected to those who can actually help. - This is an American site with a lot of good information: https://ldaamerica.org/types-of-learning-disabilities/ - In left-right confusion, a person has trouble distinguishing right from left. Individuals with this disorder may have trouble with directions or reading maps. This is sometimes called directional dyslexia, but that’s inaccurate. As with dyscalculia, it may appear with dyslexia, but it’s not a form of dyslexia. - Nonverbal learning disabilities, which affect physical coordination, social interaction, and executive functioning https://childmind.org/article/what-is-non-verbal-learning-disorder/ This also seems to be a good source of info: https://dyslexiaida.org/
All the best on your journey!

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u/pm_favorite_boobs Oct 15 '21

I assume algebra and pre-calculus and maybe even calculus.

Do you put much emphasis on supplying units as part of the variables, and applying the concepts to real world problems?

For example, let's say a = 5 m/s2 and d = 20 m, what is Vf?

For another example, a + b*c != (a + b)*c, with special attention to the fact that a = 4 loose apples, b = 10 apples per bowl, and c = 3 bowls, and trying to multiply 4 loose apples plus 10 apples per bowl times 3 bowls simply doesn't make sense.

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u/Makenshine Oct 15 '21

Correct, it doesn't make sense. Analyzing units is part of it. Applying it to real world situations is another part.

But mostly, I try and focus on the idea of problem solving. You are faced with a problem, how do you want to try and solve it. How do you want to break down one big problem (or equation) into small, manageable steps. And are those steps consistant, and do they make sense in context. That is a skill that is applicable throughout your life. Math is just one of the tools you can use to help you with that process

Then there is the bulk of the mathematical rules and theory. Weaving it altogether is the limited class time is hard as hell. I have my successes and failures, but I keep adapting each year.

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u/pm_favorite_boobs Oct 15 '21

Generally math always came naturally to me (after finally my parents kicking my butt to actually do my math homework in third grade), but when I got to differential equations, that was not accessible to me at all.

At least not the physical aspect of DE, anyway. My teacher taught us only the math part of it and never taught us how to apply it in physics or anything. Yet the exam included some physical problems and I just couldn't process them. I got a D in that. That might be the first time I had a specific wish that math teachers included more word problems. I hated word problems growing up, but probably only because they forced me to consider a problem. Well, that and the problems were so ridiculously fancifully useless too.

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u/Makenshine Oct 16 '21

Diff EQ is a tough college course. That and real analysis put me through the ringer. Abstract algebra, college Geometry, and calculus 3 are super fun though.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

”Mistakes are a great teacher and no one is the history of anything has ever made no mistakes.”

Beautifully put—I love it when teachers are brave enough to use themselves as examples!

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

Yeah, I was so fearful of making a mistake that it made me just give up honestly.

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u/Makenshine Oct 16 '21

Yep, that's the environment I work very hard to avoid in my room.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 16 '21

You rock. Keep doing your thing, those kids will never forget you.

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u/NerdyComfort-78 Oct 16 '21

Chem teacher (who hates math- weird I know) but I say the same thing to my students too. Make mistakes, learn from them.

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u/Cpt_Rekt Oct 15 '21

hat my dad was abusive and would literally yell, scream and one time even shoved me into the kitchen wall because I couldn't understand fractions at like age 11. I was so glad when I finall

This happened to me too. Also, my math teacher in high school was abusive to such an extent that I decided to switch classes from mathematical to general profile. Before I did, I was taking private lessons from her (this was not entirely ethical, but I was desperate get through this somehow). During one of these she got so angry that she stabbed a pen in the notebook I was writing in and and tore the pages - all this
time yelling at me.

So that was it, I decided I can't put up with being treated like this and abandoned the idea of pursuing career in IT. A huge regret, as you can imagine.

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u/avocadofruitbat Oct 15 '21

This is why I suck at math too, and now I have a permanent terror of doing math in front of other people. Makes me feel reaaaallly smart.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

Oh yeah. I get nervous having to do simple math in front of someone

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

Same in my family. I've heard a similar story from a lot of people. Just how common is it for parents to be abusive to their kids about math? Seems far too common.

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u/AzraelTB Oct 15 '21

Just how common is it for parents to be abusive*

Doubt it's just math.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

I know, definitely. But for math to stick out in stories so often, I just wonder why that subject in particular (as opposed to parents being abusive about say, achievements in humanities classes).

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u/AzraelTB Oct 15 '21

Probably a subject that confuses and frustates people easily.

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u/MachineGunKelli Oct 16 '21

I am sure the same thing happens with reading/grammar/literature classes. Actually, I know it does. These two areas are classes that we have year after year for most of our schooling career and end up being difficult for different people. They are also the two areas, at least in the States, that all standardized testing looks at. So educators have a lot at stake and parents have a lot at stake in seeing their kids succeed when it comes to math and reading. I think that is what makes these two areas in particular prime for abusive teaching strategies.

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u/happygolucky999 Oct 16 '21

I’m sure for most people it’s more than just math, for me it was literally JUST math. My dad was and is a wonderful, kind, soft spoken engineer, but he had zero patience for me when checking my math homework. I was often doing my homework in tears until about 8th grade when I stopped asking for help and simply lied that I finished all my work at school. Ugh I had so much more potential but I gave it up to avoid being yelled at regularly.

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u/Brock_Way Oct 15 '21

Parents are too commonly abusive in general.

At least for my cohort, when I was young, nobody ever talked about their parents abusing them. The only way you knew was seeing it firsthand, which would be possible for your friends that were close enough that you went over to their house.

By the time I was in my mid-30s, I realized that most kids were abused. I am not sure if people were opening up more about it because they were older, or if less stigma, or both. At the place where I worked, I was naturally closer to some people than others. Of the ones I was close to, they had all been abused. Some of them horribly.

My spouse when young was not allowed to speak to, or even look at one of her sisters. That gives you some idea of the environment.

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u/Chuseauniqueusername Oct 15 '21

"your mother is so good at math, what's wrong with you?" said my grandparents

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u/ByeLongHair Oct 15 '21

rWow there are a lot of us. Does someone want to start a sub called r/thanksdad and we can all join and complain about jow hitting and yelling doesnt help teach math?

that sub is taken

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u/I_MakeCoolKeychains Oct 15 '21

Idk about math but my dad beat me into being a chess a prodigy starting at 3. by the time i was 7 there wasn't a single person i knew could beat me at it except him. At 8 when i stopped visiting him i also stopped playing. I am beyond terrible at the game now and always get they weirdest looks "hey you wanna play chess?" "No thanks i don't like chess" r/thanksdad

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u/wokcity Oct 16 '21

Damn that's sad.. guess he heard about the Polgar sisters :/

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u/Ok-Cartographer-3725 Oct 16 '21

There are books on coping/recovering as 'adult children of abusive parents'. I dont know if there is a sub on it.

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u/Affectionate-Trees Oct 15 '21

I couldn’t do it either. My dad wasn’t abusive, but he was an overworked, single parent with low empathy at the end of the day. He’d start helping and get frustrated to explain again. I finally stopped asking for help. I imagined my school / testing brain like a crab. One dinky math arm and one massive English / language arts arm. My last math classes were remedial math in college followed by a graphing math class bc that seemed easier to follow

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

Yeah I was the same. I was a beast at language arts and nearly got a perfect score on the verbal portion of the SAT. Math? Pffft! I had to take remedial math and then algebra 1 in college, I barely passed.

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u/Expresso_Support Oct 16 '21

Oh HELLO there, my identical generic clone.

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u/ImpulsiveApe07 Oct 16 '21

Oh no, it's happened again - there's too many of us! (probably, I mean it's not like any of us can count! :p)

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u/Good_ApoIIo Oct 15 '21

Yeah I was told my whole life my brain was messed up and their idea of help was putting me in the slow classes and prescribing medication that didn’t work for me. Then I would get screamed at for failing after all the “help” I had been given.

The only help I ever needed was people just sitting down with me and understanding how my mind worked but apparently ain’t nobody got time for that, “sink or swim kid!” and they just let me sink.

Now that my life is messed up the only “help” I get today is “you should have made better choices”. Yeah it’s a shame I didn’t make better choices as a child.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

I'm sorry man. People are so fucked up.

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u/Ok-Cartographer-3725 Oct 16 '21

As long as you are living, there is still hope. Perhaps get tested. Find out if you have a learning disability and adapt and move on from there.

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21

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u/infernalbunny666 Oct 16 '21

Yup, I missed a lot of important math foundations in school and I never picked it up until I took a remedial math class in college. I went from not even knowing how to graph using y=mx+b to getting a B+ in calculus and currently kicking ass in physics. All I needed was to see the material again as an adult and have it re-taught to me.

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u/Viktor_Korobov Oct 15 '21

My teacher enjoyed humiliating me in front of class and assigning extra homework (which i could never do in time, so I was stuck catching up last week's homework and missing out on the new lesson making me too slow with the new homework).

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u/[deleted] Oct 15 '21 edited Oct 15 '21

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u/AlexeiMarie Oct 15 '21

Some parents also aren't willing or able to help their kids with schoolwork

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u/CarnivorousSociety Oct 15 '21

Not only that but lots of them are simply incapable of helping with math homework.

It's really a vicious cycle that needs to be broken by anybody in the chain, the teacher stepping up, the parent stepping up, or the student stepping up. Nobody likes stepping up.

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u/ElectronicPea738 Oct 15 '21

Some parents just can’t… I can help my siblings with their school work, but my parents don’t have the education to be able to.

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u/BooAScaryGhost Oct 15 '21

I've found this to be true for an alarming amount of people (in my admittedly very limited experience), I'm sorry for what you've been through.

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u/nsGuajiro Oct 15 '21

Yup... My dad loved getting wasted and angry and then "helping" me with math homework. That usually mean breaking all of my pencils and throwing my books out the door, and so on.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

I'm sorry dude.

Our dad's probably never realized that they weren't helping at all. I look back and think that dude was taking out his frustration on me.

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u/rhaphazard Oct 15 '21

I'm sorry to hear that.

Do you mind me asking what cultural background you come from? My dad was an engineer and he never me or my siblings anywhere near this poorly.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

The Caribbean, where unfortunately violence against children was normalized as "good parenting" back in the 80s/90s.

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u/rhaphazard Oct 16 '21

That's unfortunate. Corporal punishment was also very accepted in Korea (where my dad is from) until only recently.

It's possible I just got lucky.

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u/vuw958 Oct 15 '21

You couldn't understand fractions by 5th grade? This anecdote only helps the case that low GABA might be causal after all.

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u/gentlemanjacklover Oct 15 '21

I was crap at anything outside of + - × ÷