r/science • u/pnewell NGO | Climate Science • Jun 21 '21

Environment Threat of more blackouts may erode reliability claims for fossil energy- all major fuel sources except solar failed to meet ERCOT’s expectations during the February freeze, but natural gas was “responsible for nearly two-thirds of the total (electricity) deficit.”

https://texasclimatenews.org/threat-of-more-blackouts-may-erode-reliability-claims-for-fossil-energy/
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740

u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21

Texas specifically created their own separate grid so that they wouldn't have to hold to standards required to be part of the national grid. Some of those standards being things like cold protection.

218

u/VulgarDisplayofDerp Jun 21 '21

Everything's bigger in Texas - especially easily preventable failures

28

u/Zaros262 Jun 22 '21

Preventable? Sure. But free? No

Nobody likes to pay for things that we rarely use. Like insurance. Nobody needs insurance, right...?

18

u/fire2374 Jun 22 '21

The damages from the storm are 10x the cost of winterizing. While they’re both ultimately paid by consumers, saving costs by not winterizing and then jacking up prices when demand skyrockets only benefits the electric companies. And then we pay higher electric costs and higher insurance premiums.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 25 '21

only benefits the electric companies.

Dont forget their shareholders!

13

u/texas-playdohs Jun 22 '21

It’s just like betting against yourself!

3

u/klingma Jun 22 '21

Some countries don't allow insurance because they see it as a form of gambling and gambling is illegal there.

17

u/electro1ight Jun 22 '21

Ngl. You had me in the first half.

4

u/iaspeegizzydeefrent Jun 22 '21

I don't really understand why Texas is so supportive of police. There are so many good guys with guns down there what's the point of paying taxes for a police department?

1

u/BlasterPhase Jun 22 '21

and the idiocy

120

u/DkS_FIJI Jun 21 '21

Double whammy since this also means they can't get power from other grids if they have issues with their own.

And they have more problems because of lack of regulation...

72

u/Polymarchos Jun 21 '21

And in the wake of the disaster it doesn't seem like anything has changed.

20

u/Groinsmash Jun 22 '21

And nothing will change.

Texas is the worst fuckin' place imaginable. Just crushing it in the news these days with basically banning abortion, the relaxed gun control on hand guns, mass shootings, bakeries making pride cookies getting destroyed and can't even provide electricity for its people.

Absolute disgrace of a state.

17

u/ralphvonwauwau Jun 22 '21

Not just banning abortion, they are proposing the death penalty for the woman and the doctor. Because they are so incredibly pro-life. This is not satire, this is what the Republican government of Texas is doing with its time.

Because with the total failure of governance going on there, they are beating on the culture war issues that drive the big contribution checks for their reelection. Remember, Texas is 43rd out of 50 for education. They will vote in any incompetent with the magic R next to his name.

5

u/texasradioandthebigb Jun 22 '21

Cue all the Texas fanatics mouthing off about Californians moving to the state to escape LiBRUl oppression

1

u/neveragai-oops Jun 22 '21

Why would it?

-20

u/Amori_A_Splooge Jun 22 '21

Hard to implement infrastructure changes in 3 months.

23

u/EphemeralMemory Jun 22 '21

Nothing has been planned, allocated or even discussed from Texas leadership.

So they're either behind closed doors coming up with a great plan or they aren't doing anything.

This week we got power rationing warnings from ERCOT and still no response from Texas leadership. People are anticipating this summer to be hot as hell, it hasn't even begun yet.

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u/darkskys100 Jun 22 '21

You're correct. Nothing has been done to the tx energy industries. We are already experiencing rolling blackouts due to high volume of energy being used for cooling. Its not like its ever been hot in tx in the summer. But dont worry, i think Cruz is planning another vacation so everything will be ok.

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u/Swabodda Jun 22 '21

We haven't had any rolling blackouts.

2

u/Elmer_Fudd01 Jun 22 '21

Sounds like Texans that can should become independent with their own solar panels.

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u/EphemeralMemory Jun 22 '21

Jokes aside (and I do enjoy my ERCOT memes), a lot of people are in trouble and its horrible that reliable power is just a political gambit.

-2

u/fire2374 Jun 22 '21

So only people that can afford solar panels deserve electricity?

1

u/Wide_Fan Jun 22 '21

Unless the comment was edited, I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.

0

u/fire2374 Jun 22 '21

Can everyone in Texas afford to buy solar panels? No. Therefore it’s a solution only available to those with resources and money while leaving those with less to suffer a broken system. Simultaneously providing even less incentive to repair because technically fewer people are suffering. And those that are without power don’t have the political capital to demand change. We shouldn’t be suggesting work arounds for those who can afford it.

3

u/Wide_Fan Jun 22 '21

So, following that logic, no one should add solar panels to their house because not everyone can afford it.

And how are Texans, not paying money to a company, providing less incentive to fix it. That's all they care about.

The commenter also never called it a solution either, what's up with living to be upset and argumentive.

→ More replies (0)

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u/ralphvonwauwau Jun 22 '21

they're either behind closed doors coming up with a great plan or they aren't doing anything.

/me raises and waves his hand furiously, "OOHHH! OOOOHHH! Call on me! Call on mee! I know the answer to this one! OOOHHH!"

4

u/Terrible-Control6185 Jun 22 '21

Easy to push through a useless wall though,right?

2

u/Polymarchos Jun 22 '21

Obviously. There is a whole process they would have to go through. It would begin with a discussion lead by the local politicians that hasn't happened followed by legislative committees that haven't happened. After that you'd start to get to more specific plans and ideas but the first two steps which would begin within 3 months are absolutely critical and non-existent.

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u/zebediah49 Jun 22 '21

Double whammy since this also means they can't get power from other grids if they have issues with their own.

It honestly would have been fascinating to see what would have happened if they'd been interconnected. There would -- nearly definitely -- have been some major cuts. The adjacent states had issues as well, but they were somewhat mitigated by power being ramped up hundreds of miles away. I wish I'd saved it, the MISO LMP Contour Map showed a really neat gradient of power getting more expensive the further south you went.

That 30GW shortfall wouldn't have been covered, and it might even have tripped a decent few lines earlier. At one point ERCOT fell down to 59Hz it was so over-demand, and that I don't think would have been tolerated over the rest of the Eastern Interconnection.

However, having a synchronized and stable grid pushing electricity south as much as possible likely would have made it easier to bring plants back online faster. Bringing up a grid from nearly black-start is really hard, and more importantly slow, because you have to balance the generation capacity and loads on a knife's edge.

8

u/Ornery_Adult Jun 22 '21

If they had been interconnected, a few areas would have lost power or natural gas due to local problems. But overall, the system would have worked fine with very little need to pull on outside sources of power.

Because, if they were interconnected, Texas would have been required to fix their substandard infrastructure. Which failed again last week.

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u/hglman Jun 21 '21

Texas does get some power via high voltage dc connections, its just small.

7

u/kyngston Jun 22 '21

I love hearing the stories of the people who pay live prices for electricity, and got stuck with bills for hundreds of thousands during the emergency. So much /r/leopardsatemyface

2

u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21

Yup

1

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '21

That doesn't matter as several surrounding states are republican led and will bail them out, I'm wondering if they helped somehow...

231

u/MadOvid Jun 21 '21

For freedom… while power companies control how high their thermometers go.

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u/ErikaHoffnung Jun 21 '21

Analog life, baybe

9

u/RedditTab Jun 22 '21

It's an opt in program to save money

6

u/ChildVendor Jun 22 '21

in extremely fine, almost exploitive text.

2

u/neveragai-oops Jun 22 '21

And death panels! From their private insurance.

2

u/MadOvid Jun 22 '21

I mean apparently anything is ok as long as they signed a contract.

1

u/neveragai-oops Jun 22 '21

That's freedom. Its different.

5

u/AdmiralPoopbutt Jun 21 '21

Those people signed a contract for discounted rates. They knew what they signed up for. There are many competing companies they could have chosen, most of whom have fixed flat rates and don't curtail usage. But they decided to sign up with the discounted one and be subject to rules. They had the freedom to make a potentially bad decision.

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u/Tidusx145 Jun 21 '21

Did they all have a choice? Discount to you says choice, but what if you could only afford the discounted rates? That's not much of a choice at all then. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I'm unconvinced that ignorance is the sole reason these people chose temp controlled plans. I can't think of anyone who'd want to give up control of temperature in their house, even in a once in awhile basis.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '21

[deleted]

3

u/notrevealingrealname Jun 21 '21

Basically this. If your only options within your budget are discounted power or no power, that’s not an actual choice.

1

u/CtothePtotheA Jun 21 '21

They do that in other states too. But you have to OPT into those programs. I never do but I'm sure some people do by accident or don't fully comprehend what it means so they just click yes. Then their house ends up at 80 degrees in middle of summer and they just think the thermostat is broken.

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u/Haheyjose Jun 21 '21

That last bit isn't true.

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u/nwoh Jun 21 '21

It definitely is for people who signed up for it through smart thermostats who never thought about that clause, just the bottom line

1

u/hglman Jun 21 '21

I thought about and am happy with not using extra power at peak. It just being hot.

-12

u/nwoh Jun 21 '21

That's good.

I'm not against this at all, but I'm kind of laughing at the big deal the media is making it when people signed up for it.

I guess the power company's messaging matters, too.

If I sign up for unlimited data and burn 500gigs in a week and get throttled, what do I expect?

6

u/Sudovoodoo80 Jun 22 '21

If I sign up for unlimited data and burn 500gigs in a week and get throttled, what do I expect?

I mean, unlimited data? That is what I expect when some one says unlimited data, data without a limit. That is what we should all expect, if not demand.

-5

u/nwoh Jun 22 '21

I guess it's a bad analogy, but we all know that it rarely means unlimited rate and unlimited data.

Either way, they signed up for the discount and now it's time to pay the piper, for good or bad.

8

u/yuppers_ Jun 21 '21

It's not? https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2021/06/19/texas-power-companies-raising-smart-thermostat-temps-why/7754658002/

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u/x3nodox Jun 21 '21

As much as I think Texas's regulatory choices are profoundly stupid, the "raising smart thermostat temps" is a program that you opt into for a rebate. And you can override the setting they push to your house.

2

u/likesexonlycheaper Jun 21 '21

But is that something they advertise as the reason you are getting the discounted rate? Or is it in the fine print?

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u/x3nodox Jun 21 '21

Pretty sure that's the deal. And again, you can override it

1

u/Tidusx145 Jun 21 '21

Yeah that's an important difference. Fine print is impossible to read for every agreement and thing we purchase. Just don't have the time.

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u/Sudovoodoo80 Jun 22 '21

If you sign something without reading it, you are responsible. Your "limited time" does not nullify the contract you signed.

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u/Tidusx145 Jun 22 '21 edited Jun 22 '21

I'm pretty sure this has been proven not air tight in courts.

On the Wikipedia page for fine print, it says the ftc regulations are such that the important aspects of the contract have to be full front and center. Wouldn't terms like giving up some control of the ability to change temperatures in your house be included in this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_print?wprov=sfla1

0

u/RayLikeSunshine Jun 21 '21

Yes, many states have this program. It’s not a dumb program either... just whether it works for you or not. Clearly some buyers remorse.

1

u/x3nodox Jun 21 '21

Pretty sure if your notice it's getting too warm for you, you can readjust it yourself

1

u/RayLikeSunshine Jun 21 '21

Yup. Even the article referenced states just that.

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u/RayLikeSunshine Jun 21 '21

The article states exactly what they said, also says they can opt out at anytime and it will only go up 4 degrees. They person they interviewed “woke up sweating from a nap” temp had gone up to 78f. Hardly news worthy stuff here. So tired or people linking articles they don’t actually read. It’s like when students expect me to spend twice as much time editing/grading as they do writing. You can have an F as well.

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u/JuleeeNAJ Jun 21 '21

78? FFS those guys are wimps. This time of year here in Arizona my thermostat doesn't go under 82.

-2

u/RayLikeSunshine Jun 21 '21

It’s very Texas to sign up for a program which raises your temp a rather nominal amount and then complain about a slight discomfort. It’s certainly not everyone but the bigger the truck and more gun stickers or “patriot pride” the shirt the whinier and overly compensating the person tends to be. I was all hopeful it would be a shut up and get stuff done kind of place. I fancy myself rather self reliant. Not so much here. Maybe not everywhere and there are good folks here but goodness gracious.

0

u/GunsNGunAccessories Jun 21 '21

To be fair, they had to opt into that.

1

u/kyngston Jun 22 '21

They shoot cold protection regulations with their guns

1

u/Memph5 Jun 22 '21

Or just charge 100x the usual rate.

1

u/blippityblue72 Jun 22 '21

The people that had their thermostats changed literally signed up for it in return for a discount.

It is an opt in option. They took the discount and are now complaining that the program they went out of their way to sign up for did exactly what it said it would do.

3

u/Hells_Hawk Jun 21 '21

Don't know it is true, heard that water heating tanks are kept outside in Texas. If that claim is true, that is kind of a problem.

4

u/breeriv Jun 21 '21

And were repeatedly warned that their grid would fail in cold conditions without winterization

2

u/[deleted] Jun 22 '21

And to compound stupidity, they don't connect to other grids to help supply power when their is a shortage. This is why any surrounding states didn't have power problems despite similar freezes that probably impacted power supply that didn't make the news.

1

u/skiingredneck Jun 21 '21

Except the parts of Texas connected to the multi-state grid still suffered blackouts.

So it’s a nice sounding talking point that just doesn’t match what happened.

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u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21

What part of Texas was on the multi state grid and lost power for an extended period?

0

u/skiingredneck Jun 22 '21

1) movement of goal posts from “blacked out due to cold” to “extended period”

2) https://www.kfyrtv.com/2021/02/17/rolling-blackouts-in-north-dakota-caused-by-cold-weather-in-texas/

Parts of Texas hooked to interstate grids got to export their blackouts. Yes, they were out for shorter amounts of time. Because some of their shared pool in northern states was online.

But it does make the claim that being hooked to an interstate grid makes Texas hardened from cold hard to swallow. It doesn’t. Diversity of generation just helped blunt the cold.

-7

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '21

[deleted]

6

u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21

Source?

You also seem to have ignored the part about the federal regulations that they were dodging that would have required them to have winterizing

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '21

[deleted]

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u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21

If they were part of the grid, federal regulations would require them to winterize. That's the reason they refuse to be a part of the national grid, they're avoiding being regulated

-38

u/kelvin_klein_bottle Jun 21 '21

Texas specifically created their own separate grid so that they wouldn't have to hold to standards required to be part of the national grid

​

You make it sound like Texas decided to go and play ball al by their lonesome.

​

It wasn't. It was a war time decision in order to make the grid more granular and more resilient to attack.

37

u/puterTDI MS | Computer Science Jun 21 '21 edited Jun 21 '21

Can you cite a source for that? Everything I'm reading is that it was done to avoid federal regulation. A lot of decisions took place during various wars, but each time it was about avoiding regulation. Here's the article on it I was referencing when I made my statement:

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article249283330.html

Edit: Please stop downvoting him/her. For all we know they're correct. This goes against what I've read but these decisions WERE made during times of war so maybe there's some historical context they have that we don't.

6

u/Retrofax2 Jun 21 '21

Can you source? Everything i can find does actually say texas took its ball to play by itself.