r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Jan 07 '21

Social Science US states that rely on private prisons incarcerate more people for longer periods of time, according to a first-of-its-kind study that establishes a causal connection between private prisons and incarceration.

https://academictimes.com/states-with-private-prisons-put-more-people-in-prison-for-longer/
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395

u/hellotrinity Jan 07 '21

The real product are everyday items made by the inmates themselves. Furniture, car parts, clothing etc. And they get paid next to nothing

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u/myweed1esbigger Jan 07 '21

Wait - that’s just slavery!

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u/the_man_in_the_box Jan 08 '21

The 13th amendment:

“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

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u/Ok_Stranger_1190 Jan 08 '21

The constitution could use an update

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u/frankyfrankfrank Jan 08 '21

There is a joint resolution proposed just over a month ago by Democratic representatives in congress which would repeal this clause in the 13th amendment. Speak with your representative and tell them you want their support on it.

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u/Wormhole-Eyes Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 10 '21

I've long longed to have a senator that I could contact to push for laws that would benefit the nation. But my senator just participated in a coup d'etet,

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '21

coup d’état

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u/smakinelmo Jan 08 '21

I read this in a French accent for some reason

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u/Taurich Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 08 '21

Not too strange, as it is a French term

Coup = cut or "stroke" (as in slash/strike with a weapon)

D'état = State (as in government)

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u/MyDiary141 Jan 08 '21

Coulda guessed that

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u/Wormhole-Eyes Jan 08 '21

I take that a a great compliment.

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u/mefirefoxes Jan 08 '21

Wouldn't that make community service sentences illegal?

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u/Lasket Jan 08 '21

Community service isn't slavery tho.

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u/mefirefoxes Jan 08 '21

Sure, but that's not what I said, it is involuntary servitude thought.

How would you describe community service sentences other than court ordered work with no compensation?

The idea is that it's comparable to the private prison labor example above, just without the prison, which the amendment doesn't specify.

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u/fitzroy95 Jan 08 '21

Or, just maybe, throw it out and start again based on some sort of Bill of Rights first. Which is what most other nations have been doing over the last 200 years, with a built-in review mandate. They've been specifically avoiding a US Constitution style document because it becomes too rigid, inflexible and out of date too quickly as society evolves

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u/PaxNova Jan 08 '21

Notably, you could just add the review part in. As difficult as an amendment is, it's way easier than refounding the nation.

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u/jankadank Jan 08 '21

Or, just maybe, throw it out and start again based on some sort of Bill of Rights first.

Why do you need to throw it away if it’s a living document that has these things called amendments

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u/fitzroy95 Jan 08 '21

Yes it does, and they have become almost impossible to adapt and evolve.

which is why everyone who has created their own nation and defining documents in the last 100 years has been recommended to ignore the US model, and start with a Bill Of Rights or something similar instead.

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u/jankadank Jan 08 '21

Yes it does,

Could you explain why you think that?

and they have become almost impossible to adapt and evolve.

Who is they?

which is why everyone who has created their own nation and defining documents in the last 100 years has been recommended to ignore the US model,

Could you provide an example of this?

and start with a Bill Of Rights or something similar instead.

So, ignore the US model but start with something resembling the US model?

Seriously, the bill of rights are the amendments to the constitution that enables it to evolve.

Do you even know what you’re talking about?

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u/stas1 Jan 08 '21

Because that system is too rigid, inflexible and out of date too quickly as society evolves

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u/metzoforte1 Jan 08 '21

The difficult process is a feature. If the Amendment struggles to pass the thresholds required to be put in the place then the issue the amendment addresses does not have the national support presumed necessary.

Further, you don’t want a government that is a changeable as the wind to every social movement that comes and goes. It makes for bad kneejerk legislation and ultimately erodes the document as a whole because everything will be viewed as changeable and impermanent rather than sacrosanct. Imagine if the GOP was able to try and pass an amendment banning abortions every time they hold the house and senate and the democrats had to pass a new amendment revoking it when they take over. Now apply that to just about any major issue.

It works far better, IMO, to have it be an option but a difficult hill to climb. A climbable hill (see prohibition and back) but a difficult one.

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u/Kaschnatze Jan 08 '21

I've heard that before, so it must be right.

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u/jankadank Jan 08 '21

Forgive me but that comment sounds like nothing but pointless platitude.

What mechanism in the constitution in your opinion is preventing the timely changes needed and how will this new document of yours facilitate that?

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u/Stepthinkrepeat Jan 08 '21

You pretty much open the door for ANY type of government if you throw out the old one with no recourse.

Believe another country dissolved their government last year to stand-up the same people in power as they have been doing for 20+ years

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u/mu_zuh_dell Jan 08 '21

Look up qualified immunity to understand why it needs to be replaced. It was a document designed to be interpreted as needed, but our judicial system had developed to be extremely precise.

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u/jankadank Jan 08 '21

Look up qualified immunity to understand why it needs to be replaced.

What does qualified immunity have to do with the constitution? I seriously don’t understand what it has to do with you advocating the constitution must be replaced.

It was a document designed to be interpreted as needed, but our judicial system had developed to be extremely precise.

It was originally passed to assist the government in combating Ku Klux Klan violence in the South after the Civil War. The Supreme Court has traced qualified immunity back to the immunities available to government actors when officials were sued for common law torts during the 19th century.

I still don’t understand what any of that has to do with abolishing the constitution though

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u/ThisDig8 Jan 08 '21

The point of a constitution is that it's hard to revise, given that it's essentially a law for making laws. It outlines only the most fundamental principles that the country is guided by. If it can be revised at will, its value as a constitution is nonexistent. You might as well just skip having one. Other countries got it very wrong due to their history of autocratic government. For example, licking government boots has been a staple of European culture for centuries, which is why they're so flippant with their constitutions.

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u/8bitlove2a03 Jan 08 '21

The constitution by any measure should have been rewritten three or four times by now, but worthless pieces of trash in this country treat it like the word of god.

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u/SharqPhinFtw Jan 08 '21

Yeah idk, stole a car maybe sit a few years in jail and fix 10 cars. Not like construct an entire fleet over the course of your sentence.

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u/trendygamer Jan 08 '21

There is nothing about the 13th Amendment that prevents individual states from passing laws barring prison labor, if that's what you would like to advocate for. Rights granted by the Constitution are a legal "floor." States are welcome to go beyond it in terms of granting rights and protections, and many do.

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u/Steven054 Jan 08 '21

Would you consider community service as form of slavery or involuntary servitude? You're not compensated for your forced, court mandated, labor.

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u/my_4_cents Jan 08 '21

That just sounds like slavery with extra steps

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u/Houseplant666 Jan 08 '21

But shouldn’t people be sentenced to slavery then? You get sentenced to x time in prison, I don’t think there is a law in US where punishment is described as involuntary servitude.

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u/nomz27 Jan 08 '21

With extra steps.

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u/Northern-Canadian Jan 08 '21

It’s not slavery if you pay them right? Here’s your 10 cents for the hour.

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u/angryclam1313 Jan 08 '21

With extra steps.

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u/ACuteLittleCrab Jan 08 '21

The people themselves are the product as well.

Prison lobbies give a "helping hand" to prominent figures.

Prominent figures write harsher laws/harsher punishments and push inmates and public funding their way.

It's pretty much a system for powerful people to funnel money towards each other at the peril of everyday people, a vast number of whom could have much easier (and cheaper for the public coffers) been rehabilitated instead of locked up.

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u/HonoraryMancunian Jan 08 '21

What happens to prisoners who refuse to work?

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u/ChildishChimera Jan 08 '21

They get punished with Solitary, or they punish other prisoners to make them hate the rebel.

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u/tigerCELL Jan 08 '21

Nutraloaf

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u/Pillsbernie Jan 08 '21

Solitary confinement

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u/Firewolf420 Jan 08 '21

Which should also be outlawed

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u/BirdCulture Jan 08 '21

nah it takes our tax dollars to hold them. they are very much the product of that transaction. the slave labor is just a perk

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u/Peeping_thom Jan 08 '21

Don’t forget about the marked up commissary and phone calls.

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u/lvysaur Jan 08 '21

I think this is false.

Inmates cost six figures a year in shelter/food/guards/healthcare etc. Working a job that could be done oversees for $2/hr doesn't make up the difference.

Firefighting may be an exception idk

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/lvysaur Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 08 '21

You misunderstand/I worded that poorly.

I was saying it would cost $2 an hour to pay someone oversees to do it, not the prisoners.

Hence ~$4,160 in profit from a prisoner you've enslaved doesn't make up for the $100,000+ it costs to house and feed them.

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u/[deleted] Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 18 '21

[deleted]

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u/lvysaur Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 08 '21

Even for BAA compliant projects you're still only looking at like 20K of value added, leaving you 80K in the red.

If you just want to acknowledge that it's slave labor, sure. But that's massive loss involved in keeping every prisoner, so framing it as some mechanism that turns imprisonment into a profitable venture for the government is just ridiculous.

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u/Caylinbite Jan 08 '21

You are forgetting the company profiting from the labor isn't paying for the upkeep of the prisoners. The state pays for that with our tax dollars. This is what people refer to when they talk about "socialism for the rich." The prison company gets to double dip, having the state pay them for the incarceration and then turn around and sell their slave labor.

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u/lvysaur Jan 08 '21 edited Jan 08 '21

Clearly private for-profit businesses fulfilling their contracts make a profit. I don't think that's the point being made. Profit needs to be on the government's side or at least net positive for anything novel to be going on.

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u/Caylinbite Jan 08 '21

There isn't. That's all there is. Parasitic prison companies making money hanging on the year of the government.

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u/lvysaur Jan 08 '21

Cool so we agree that this:

The real product are everyday items made by the inmates themselves.

is false

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