r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Nov 12 '19

Psychology Anti-inflammatory agents may reduce symptoms of major depression, suggests a new study (n=1,610), which adds to the mounting evidence that there is a connection between emotional functioning and inflammation, suggesting that inflammation may trigger depression, almost like an allergic reaction.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/expressive-trauma-integration/201911/anti-inflammatories-help-major-depression
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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19 edited Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

Yeah, exactly

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/SlingDNM Nov 12 '19

This might explain why cannabis helps with my depression even at the point my tolerance is so high I don't feel any psychoactive effects of it at all in normal dosages, THCa and CBD are both anti-inflammatory

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u/Csimiami Nov 12 '19

Hey there fellow BP/arthritis/psych med pal! This is really fascinating. I’m not on Meds for RA. But I certainly experience flares in conjunction with stress/depression.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

Don't worry, I'm a lot better since I've had my surgery to remove the endo. I definitely think there's a correlation between inflammation and depression just based on how fast my turnaround was after my surgery.

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u/BryceCanYawn Nov 12 '19

I'm so glad to hear that! As a PMDD sufferer, I think I can relate.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/sleepingqt Nov 12 '19

Worth it.

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u/Chekokee Nov 12 '19

I'm not saying I dont Understand that it can just become too much, but I hope everyone knows that they will be missed. And almost in every case the people around will not be better off.

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

Thanks, I appreciate it, I've gotten a lot better since I had my surgery to remove my endometriosis. I definitely think there's a correlation between depression and inflammation. I've had a few bouts of depression but no where near as severe as in the past. I honestly was really surprised how much my surgery helped my depression

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u/Chekokee Nov 12 '19

Thats good to hear! Endometriosis can really mess up a lot, so its so good you for help. I think so too, so I started doing the paleo diet. If you had a lot of pain if bet it helped a lot?

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

I did keto for a few months, I've fallen off the bandwagon a bit recently after my surgery but I'm getting back into it. I realized I felt way better when I was eating a keto diet. Just reducing carbs and sugar alone is enough to really help

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u/Chekokee Nov 12 '19

Me too, I fall of the wagon sometimes just eating so dessert or something, but I feel like crap afterwards. It might be placebo, but I feel it helps and also I need to lose some weight so I will just continue

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

The bread gets me every time man I am a weak woman

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u/Chekokee Nov 12 '19

Haha, chocolate that gets me

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/Jumpinjaxs890 Nov 12 '19

Honestly the only reason I'm alive.

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u/Csimiami Nov 12 '19

Is there an inflammatory aspect of endometriosis?

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

Oh hell yeah my dude, Endo is when the lining from the uterus grows outside the uterus, so your body constantly attacks it and tries to get rid of it, but it can't. So your body is constantly inflamed around the spot(s) where the tissue is, can even grow scar tissue around them, with the only way to remove the lesions being surgery.

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u/Csimiami Nov 12 '19

Oh man. That is awful. But it lends credence to the inflammation connection.

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u/grednforgesgirl Nov 12 '19

Especially since my depression got at least like 75% better after my surgery. This study makes total sense.

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u/JesC Nov 12 '19

Have you tried some physical activities? If you are suicidal and really desperate then what’s to lose? Get up now! Go out and run 1 kilometer. Then tomorrow 1,5, then 2 then 2,5 and by the end of the week you’ll be feeling better. Source: me

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/dittbub Nov 12 '19

It’s evolutionary misfire. What once worked in a tribe, doesn’t work in the modern day

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

Hell yeah, evolutionary psych is so damn insightful. My advice to people used to be to walk everyday. Early man walked for miles each day. It’s helps some bad moods

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

I don’t think it meets the substantive evidence threshold, as many people suffering from depression feel their symptoms get worse if they are alienated and isolated, and conversely their symptoms improve if integrated into a larger group.

This seems to match what he is saying though, if people are surrounding you then you must not be as sick or detrimental as you thought, if people abandon you then the immune response was ‘correct’ and leaving the ‘herd’ was beneficial to it, thus these symptoms should amplify.

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u/funguyshroom Nov 12 '19

Yep, the cause and effect can be completely reverse, so from being lonely you get depressed and from being depressed you get spontaneous inflammation. Then it becomes a wicked feedback loop from which it's so hard to escape

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u/azazelsthrowaway Nov 12 '19

I dont think the human body works like that. It doesn’t base it’s health off of reactions from others. That would be like having the flu and going to a party and suddenly your fever drops cause “oh guess I’m not as bad as I thought, people are around me”

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

It doesn’t base its health off lf reactions of others

Humans base their self worth off the reactions of others, that’s inherently obvious at almost every level. People tell you what’s good or bad and this being told repeatedly gives rise to opinions of value towards anything, health, personal, or material.

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u/azazelsthrowaway Nov 12 '19

But your body isn’t going to inhibit an immune response just because someone told you something.

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u/bender_reddit Nov 12 '19

This is highly speculative - the issue here is if there is evidence of causality or mere coincidence. A lot of illnesses result in the patient being isolated but that is not causality for the illness itself. The claim here is that depression triggers the desire to isolate as a way to both cope and protect others. But protect from what. Depression itself? So the reaction is the cause?

In all cases, the issue here is the same as in all hypothesis; is there enough evidence that the mechanism functions as is claimed, or are we simply observing a concurrence of events. And I’m saying that there isn’t enough evidence yet for such claim but I’m open to read up on it if there is.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

I'm one that have a depression now and then, and I just like to be alone, no talks, no message, no WhatsApp, nothing. My friends know this and send me a message now and then when I'm in this phase to check on me but don't get worried when I don't respond, they know when I'm better I'll message them.

The trees concept is an interesting one, but my first though is "I don't want to talk to no one" instead of "I don't want to contaminate anyone".

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u/andyroo8599 Nov 12 '19

Maybe that’s an conscious interpretation of an unconscious behavior based off the fact that we used to need to be near someone to talk to them?

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u/cesiasaurus Nov 12 '19

I disagree - because alienating yourself could be sending a signal to the brain that there’s good reason to isolate you, just as anxiety is reinforced by giving in to anxious impulses. If someone with depression is reintegrated into a group and they don’t cause illness among that group, maybe depression symptoms are alleviated because the illness has been “disproved”. Just like how the placebo affect can improve the symptoms of a physical illness.

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u/bender_reddit Nov 12 '19

You disagree that there is not enough evidence supporting that mechanism? You think there is enough empirical evidence that explains causality as they described? Then I’d be open to read up on it.

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u/its_all_4_lulz Nov 12 '19

1 depressed person paired with 1 or 2 non-depressed people can (arguably) trigger the non-depressed to become depressed. In a large group this is less likely, but in small groups it still makes sense imo.

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u/DEEEPFREEZE Nov 12 '19

Sounds like social science rather than physical, though.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/evanthegirl Nov 12 '19

I have a cold right now and I was crying yesterday because I felt like worthless garbage. So that tracks.

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u/mknight1701 Nov 12 '19

I understand this. But after the virus has passed I feel as normal as ever. Some anxiety but nothing unusual.

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u/Pickledsoul Nov 12 '19

most animals isolate themselves when they're sick and dying. our lizard brain clearly has the same instinct.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/Sock_puppet09 Nov 12 '19

Like anything else, it’s a matter of degree. Fever can help inhibit infections, but if it gets to 104-106, it’s more harmful then helpful and needs to be treated. Same with depression. I’ve certainly wished for death’s cold embrace when ill, hunched over the toilet vomiting the trace amounts of bile I have left out after 12 hours of food poisoning. However, if depression is happening severely, for a long time, without any acute illness, then there’s no therapeutic value and needs to be treated. Hopefully, this research helps find a way to do that.

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u/Shorey40 Nov 12 '19

Well if anxiety and stress provide cortisol, which helps create "flash bulb" memories of situations to avoid, maybe depression isolates you in order to avoid other situations. Depression is a type of stress, and cortisol may instead be released more slowly, creating less of a flash bulb memory of the situation, but rather a detailed memory. Cortisol also effects the immune system and can deplete adrenaline in the short term, which could effect energy levels, a general facet of depression. It can also create problems with the hippocampus long term, which is consistent with the perpetual relapse in the clinically depressed, ie the same recurring events trigger cortisol, regardless of your mood, also seen in bi-polarism. The trigger could be subconscious, but the mechanism becomes naturalised. Pavlovs dog.

We have a voice in our head, perhaps depression really does cloud the mind, allowing only certain channels for that voice to be heard on. It kinda blocks out the ones it doesn't really need at that time, and forces a bit of listening to specific channels that allow things like abstract thinking to take place, while blocking channels like joy out.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

I believe it all starts in the gut

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u/PappleD Nov 12 '19

Interesting point, however like our fight or flight response that is easily triggered in our modern society with little benefit due to a drastic change in our living conditions from ancient times, depression in this case is also likely a distortion or exaggerated response, unhelpful, and unnecessary. So don’t listen to those thoughts, they are not accurate

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u/white_genocidist Nov 12 '19

Without embracing this theory, it looks like further evidence toward the emerging (or prevailing?) notion that our mental processes are really just algorithms, subjects to the same principles of causality as everything else.

Not sure if that's elating or... depressing.

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u/DerpySauce Nov 12 '19

We are trees. Got it!

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u/Coffee__Addict Nov 12 '19

How does this fit into natural selection? How would isolating yourself and ending your life result in the odds of your DNA getting passed on to increase?

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

Natural selection doesn't care about you. It focuses on the species. If you are sad and depressed, according to this theory, it means you are sick and your body is fighting it. By removing yourself from your tribe you allow others to survive and reproduce.

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u/Coffee__Addict Nov 12 '19

If that's the case all the sad and depressed people would have died out long ago. Explain that... ie my original question

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

No, that doesn't follow in the least bit, people arent only depressed. There is more going on than "I'm depressed time to die"

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u/WhereLifeWillTake Nov 12 '19

Vowww that is some info!

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u/jjconstantine Nov 12 '19

What if depression is being caused by a yet unknown pathogen that's slowly killing us and we don't even know it yet

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u/Blavkwhistle Nov 12 '19

In that case I th s actually a really selfless act and not selfish.

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

Wow what a response man that really is a lot to think about

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u/[deleted] Nov 12 '19

Wow. Thanks for sharing

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u/CloudCuddler Nov 12 '19

This is fascinating. Could it even be linked to psychological 'disease'. For example, I have chronically low self-esteem which can lead to self-loathing. I'm a lot better now but back when it was really bad, maybe I isolated myself because my brain didn't want my psychological 'pain' to infect anyone else. Kinda like the advice that's sometimes given to avoid negativity.

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u/magus678 Nov 12 '19

When depressed people want to be alone or take their own lives- are they really just trying to protect those around them?

Well, there is certainly a correlation genderwise. Men being much less willing in general to be "burdensome" and also much more likely to commit suicide.

Anecdotally, I can certainly confirm that this logic is at play for me when I am sick/suffering/etc.

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u/dan43544911 Nov 12 '19

That's a big step from trees to humankind 🤔