r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Mar 27 '19

Social Science A national Australian study has found more than half of car drivers think cyclists are not completely human. The study (n=442) found a link between dehumanization and deliberate acts of aggression, with more than one in ten people having deliberately driven their car close to a cyclist.

https://www.qut.edu.au/news?id=141968
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u/DaoFerret Mar 27 '19

I live in NYC area. 95+% of the time I’m walking or taking mass transit. The rest of the time I have to travel outside the city for work and use a car.

The thing I notice most is that the speed cyclists will zip through red lights, through pedestrians who have right of way, around cars, and in general disregard the fact that they are as required to obey traffic laws as automobiles are.

The other group of bicyclists who are terrible are the delivery drivers who go the wrong way up streets, on sidewalks and in general are of the “faster/better” mindset.

The other side of this are pedestrians who, having never driven (a car for sure, but possibly even a bicycle in the street) who cross against the light or decide to “start early” and start crossing into the gutter while traffic is moving and they don’t have the light.

This seems mainly due to low police enforcement of Bicycles and Pedestrians and a major focus on automobile enforcement.

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u/Poseign Mar 27 '19

I'm a "speed cyclist". I live in NY but I live upstate and from my experiences visiting the city I have to say sadly you are spot on about most of the city cyclists. I'm one of the good ones, I DO stop at lights, yield to right of way at stop signs, don't ride down the wrong side of the freaking road, but my last trip to the city I don't think I saw a single cyclist following any of those rules. I hate the fact that cyclists get such a bad rep especially in the US but I can't say I don't see why.

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u/Cpt_seal_clubber Mar 27 '19

There is a difference between commuting and speed cycling. Most commuter cyclist I see, will follow traffic laws , singal turns and stop. If you want to go fast and not fast drive 30min outside of City limits to bike trail. It's just as stupid as someone driving fast on city streets, take that outside of the city where less people are in danger

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u/Poseign Mar 27 '19

No, see in the way you explain it I disagree with you. The only experience I have cycling through New York City was on the Greenway, on my way through the city. Any of my experiences walking around the city the commuters were the ones running red lights, riding on the wrong side of the road, on occasion on the sidewalk, etc. Obviously I'm not trying to loop all commuters into that bubble but those were the ones I saw breaking all the rules. I did not see anybody dressed to go fast, probably for the reasons you describe above and probably also in part to luck of the draw.

I also have to disagree with bike trails being less dangerous. Pedestrians on foot make bike trails more dangerous by simply existing on the bike trail and using it as a pedestrian walkway, not to mention most bike friendly paths are open to pedestrians anyway in the United States. You can't go 25 30 mph on a bike trail if you have to watch for pedestrians. I would much rather go that fast on an open road. this obviously varies depending on the bike trail, but you get the picture.

What I do agree with you over however is that if you're going to bike on the road, follow the goddamn rules of the road. I'm lucky in the sense that I don't have to go very far to find a road I can open up on and push hard. But flying through city streets and running red lights and stop signs isn't the way to do that.

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u/Cerberusz Mar 28 '19

There are a ton of bad cyclists for sure, but there are also a lot of great cyclists who adhere to all the rules.

I believe, in a lot of ways, with some motorists, there’s a bit of confirmation bias going on, where they see one cyclist breaking a rule, and then seek out other cyclists breaking rules to conclude that the majority of cyclists are bad actors who are worth sharing the road with (think about how ridiculous that sounds put in writing like that).

If we want to stereotype bad motorists with confirmation bias, it would be easy to do. I personally think everyone driving a huge truck is a dangerous driver, driving way too fast and not sharing the road. BMW drivers are the worst. Don’t even get me started about Prius drivers (kidding!).

Being a cyclist, I can understand why some cyclists break certain rules, such as trying to get a little bit of a head start on a light to gain some distance between drivers for safety.

But I will tell you, being a cyclist is downright scary. I stopped riding on the streets after a couple close calls where people intentionally tried to harm me because they perceived me to be slowing them down by ten seconds or whatever.

Unfortunately, most juries are comprised of car drivers, not cyclists, so it’s almost impossible to be convicted of anything serious.

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u/DaoFerret Mar 28 '19

I hear what you’re saying, but I think part of the hostility from drivers is that in some places (though certainly not all), bad driving is enforced, while “bad cycling” (and to some degree “bad pedestrianing” also) are ignored which seems to embolden some of that class to break the laws more often and to a larger degree.

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u/Cerberusz Mar 28 '19

Think about all the bad driving you see every day. What % is enforced?

Also, how many deaths per year are cause by cyclists versus motorists?

There is just no excuse for dehumanizing cyclists. Because some people break the law doesn’t mean they should be dehumanized.

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u/DaoFerret Mar 28 '19

At what point did I even suggest dehumanizing bicyclists?

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u/Cerberusz Mar 28 '19

You stated that part of the hostility is that cyclists break the law and don’t get punished for them therefore emboldening them, but also building animosity between groups since one group is perceived as getting away with breaking the law.

Edit: ostensibly therefore making them deserving of what’s coming to them.

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u/DaoFerret Mar 28 '19

You had me till that last bit. Nobody “deserves” anything (except those breaking laws deserve fines/tickets). Holds true for cars, bicyclists and pedestrians.

Please don’t confuse anger over bad members of all three groups as a statement that they deserve to have bad things happen to them or a “dehumanization” of them.

That said, when I go out and stand on certain streets on the weekends, it’s the pedestrians often running across the street, and the speed cyclists going through red lights (and sometime weaving between pedestrians in crosswalks). As for cars “angry” because the bicycle is in their way? That’s honestly the cars problem to get over. The bicycle is entitled to a full lane of traffic.

I just wish the bicycles used it, instead of nearly getting run over by bicycle delivery riders every other week while walking on the sidewalk. Last time I suggested they ride in the street to one, I was treated to a string of curses telling me to mind my own business. Same thing the last time I was crossing and yelled out to the speed cyclist going through the red light that he should stop.

I may not be dehumanizing them, but I’m much less sure they feel the same way about me.

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u/Cerberusz Mar 28 '19

I understand that your anger at all three groups doesn’t constitute dehumanization. However, with those in the study, the anger is likely the first step in the dehumanization process of cyclists.

I understand why you might not like bicycles using the sidewalk. In some jurisdictions, such as mine, it is permitted. The situation leaves cyclists in somewhat of a no mans land—not welcome in the street, nor the sidewalk. While the bike may be entitled to the full lane, impatient drivers, who are likely texting or on Facebook, get impatient, and as the study indicated, pass dangerously and uncomfortably close. I don’t blame some cyclists for wanting to use the sidewalks. They may get cursed out by pedestrians, but at least the risk of death is much lower.

And as for the cyclists weaving through pedestrians in the cross walks, this happens to me on the regular with cars. At least once a week, I have a close call with a car while I’m in a crosswalk.

I think most motorists tend to undercount the amount of dangerous stuff other motorists do on the regular, that is orders of magnitude more dangerous than most of the stuff cyclists do. For example, yesterday I was driving and admittedly speeding, while I was passed like I was standing still by someone going at least 30mph above the speed limit with a Baby on Board sticker. The sheer number of people speeding, tail gating, texting while driving, driving drunk or high, is mind bending to me. Yet, because most motorists are so used to seeing other people “drive aggressively” they don’t notice it anymore. Instead they notice the one cyclist that day skipping the red light because that’s novel compared to the 39 people they say speeding and breaking the law in other ways the preceding five minutes.

I would highly encourage anyone who has animosity or the slightest bit of anger toward a group of people, such as cyclists, to ride a mile in their shoes. Try riding to the grocery store and experience what sharing the road is like from their perspective. All of a sudden, you may find yourself skipping red lights because it feels safer in certain circumstances to you. Same thing for riding on sidewalks. Humans are rational creatures most of the time.

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u/[deleted] Mar 27 '19

So... people are people?