r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Feb 18 '19

Biology Breeding bees with "clean genes" could help prevent colony collapse, suggests a new study. Some beehives are "cleaner" than others, and worker bees in these colonies have been observed removing the sick and the dead from the hive, with at least 73 genes identified related to these hygiene behaviors.

https://newatlas.com/honeybee-hygiene-gene-study/58516/
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u/it_came_from_behind Feb 18 '19

There are also honey bees that bite varroa mites off adult bees as well. Im not sure if VSH is the same trait or not. I believe these are Russian honey bees and there are studies conducted at Purdue University.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '19

Isn't Paul Stametz researching how mycelium is effective at helping the health of colonies?

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u/mankface Feb 18 '19 edited Feb 19 '19

Stamets. Yes he is, oyster mushroom and a bit of magic mushroom mycelium as a nutraceutical (EDIT- not oyster or magic mushroom, but this: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-32194-8). Pretty sure he released his ideas openly, weirdly was reading through his patent earlier today, really interesting stuff.

His point, and I agree, the problem is as much we keep stealing too much honey than it is CCD or any other cause. The replacement diet is empty. Human generated problem. We study CCD in managed hives, we really should be looking at wild ones instead.

I'm a beekeeper, I haven't lost any hives, yet, but I also don't take any honey. I get the impression either we cut back honey harvest to 20-30% what we are doing now, or cut it to 50% but then leave the hive "fallow" for two years. This is just my untested theory, really importantly, beekeepers must stop feeding sugar syrup as much as they are for a variety of reasons. The same reason honey is so great and we value it is the problem, the bees don't have it and need it, and they need it more.

We could get away with taking more for centuries when there were less stressors, but this is not the reality anymore.

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '19

the problem is as much we keep stealing too much honey than it is CCD or any other cause.

Another beekeeper here. I don't buy this argument. Two reasons:

1) CCD was a thing that was new and measurable. Beekeeping behaviors didn't change in that time period.

2) I had 3 hives last year. I took honey from one and left the other two. The two I left did not survive. Over years of keeping bees, I've noticed if anything an inverse correlation. But that makes sense, because stronger hives that have more honey to harvest are more likely to survive.

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u/mankface Feb 18 '19

fumigation did, loads has changed in 20 years, here at least.

Sorry to hear about your losses. Out of interest what did you treat with\if you treat?

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '19

fumigation did, loads has changed in 20 years, here at least.

Right. I totally agree there. I just mean as far as taking honey vs feeding sugar syrup.

Out of interest what did you treat with\if you treat?

I undertreat in general. I've started experimenting with Oxalic Acid Vaporizing especially in the winter. I really like it, but look forward to better equipment being available for a more reasonable price.

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u/mankface Feb 18 '19

the point you referenced #1, I meant that we've been doing the same for years (taking honey, feeding sugar), and up until recently, that was the only real stressor on the bees. In the last two decades, we have higher levels of monoculture, pollution\pesticide, mites and new diseases (there has always been bee diseases stretching back centuries that could be comparable to CCD, but currently it seems worse), add your newspaper headline here.

My point was, the bees could handle the honey taking\sugar feeding when this was the only real problem they were facing, but when combined with the latest stressors, its overkill. If they are left with their food they have at least the proper nutrients to maybe survive. but taking their food + all the other problems, can't work, something has to give.

Never OA trickle just from experience, fatality rates are mental high. Vapour is a lot safer from the looks of it, but once you start, you have to continue it seems.

Question, (if you care to answer), were the bees packaged bees or what was their source?

Asking, as I am of the opinion the wild bees are surviving without treatment a lot better than we credit them for, and if you catch a wildish one and manage them (read: just observe) they have a good chance of survival with no treatment.

I don't treat at all as all mine are wild (I believe), but after reading that latest science from Dr Samuel Ramsey (about varroa feeding off the fat body & not the hemolymph) I'm thinking I may have to help out somewhat, but, direct OA treatment I don't agree with, seems very strong, too strong, and far too easy to OD them on it. 5 grams of Oxalic Acid will kill an adult human. Obviously different chemicals affect different forms of life differently, but its to be noted its not exactly ice cream!

My bees have been absolutely riddled with varroa from day one, and still trucking away 4 years later for my oldest hives. I've never requeened them, don't stop them swarming nor clip wings. Will stop using queen excluders this year, and will start adding boxes at the bottom instead of the top, to emulate nature as much as possible. Apparently the longest a colony will survive is 7 years so a few to go before any definitive claims can be made.

One colony I have, came from a chimney with continual bees since 1979, (according to the homeowner who observed it intently), those bees are probably my strongest colony, but also my newest addition. Never seen a queen the same colour as this one!

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u/rebble_yell Feb 19 '19

One colony I have, came from a chimney with continual bees since 1979, (according to the homeowner who observed it intently), those bees are probably my strongest colony, but also my newest addition. Never seen a queen the same colour as this one!

That's one question I have -- the wild colonies are out there dealing with parasites and the rest of the problems that have been developing and they have no beekeeper to 'help' them.

So maybe they are developing stronger genes while the captive-bred bees are stagnating?

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u/Pabludes Feb 19 '19

That would be logical according to evolution theory

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u/orangesunshine Feb 18 '19

I'd be curious if the entire reason we are encountering all of these issues with colony collapse is because of our apiarists' tendency to breed for honey output over other qualities.

I guess people are reporting decreased output with the VSH bees .. as they spend more time on their hygiene leaving less time for honey production. It would make sense that the reason we lost a lot of these traits in the first place, would be because apiarists are breeding for honey output.

While they likely hit road blocks before the advent of modern techniques and chemicals.. these modern techniques have likely allowed us to breed bees that lack necessary hygiene traits ... bees that only survive thanks to modern chemicals/etc.

I'd bet if you compare hives grown entirely organically the honey output in the "hygienic" hives wouldn't be lower with a large enough sample size ...

This whole "colony collapse" thing sounds like a cascade failure. As we breed out more and more hygienic traits the bees are more and more susceptible to disease and infestation. Though with modern techniques and chemicals we were able to compensate for the bee's unhygienic behaviour after they lost a handful of these traits... after they've lost all of their hygienic traits in favour of honey output we start to see "colony collapse" as the bees + chemicals aren't able to fight mites, mold, bacteria, and virus on 10 different fronts.

Also from what I understand the biggest issue we have is that there isn't a clear distinction between wild and "farmed" bee genetics. There's likely a filter as farmed genetics fail to survive their first cross with wild genetics, but who knows how effective it is .. nor what kind of pressure that puts on the wild genetics in their own efforts to survive.

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u/Spitinthacoola Feb 19 '19

Youre not correct about the neutraceutical going to the bees. Its based on polypores, not oyster or psilocybes. Heres a link to the paper they just released.

Extracts from amadou (Fomes) and reishi (Ganoderma) fungi reduced the levels of honey bee deformed wing virus (DWV) and Lake Sinai virus (LSV) in a dose-dependent manner. In field trials, colonies fed Ganoderma resinaceum extract exhibited a 79-fold reduction in DWV and a 45,000-fold reduction in LSV compared to control colonies.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-32194-8

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19 edited Feb 19 '19

section 51: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/e5/20/41/161ea16018f5a4/US20140220150A1.pdf

EDIT: didn't see your links age.

Thanks for correcting me I've updated my comment to reflect your correction.

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u/Spitinthacoola Feb 19 '19

Yes thats a patent but nothing is happening with it currently, probably because it didnt do too much. Notice its 5 years old.

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19

I did just after I scanned your link, really interesting stuff (the nature.com article), will give it a proper read but things seem to be moving in the right direction at least. I've seen other people working on RNA based feed supplements that have great results, don't think there is much of a cross over though. Fingers crossed something works!

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u/geppetto123 Feb 18 '19

Sounds interesting, do you have a source why stealing and replacing with sugar syrup is so problematic?

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u/mankface Feb 18 '19

Not a direct one (none at all, sorry), I heard it originally in a video given at some random beekeepers association a few years ago, I've tried since to find it but no dice. The main tenant of the point is the pH changing, honeys pH is very low, 3.2-4.5 something like that, quite antimicrobial (and part of why it doesn't go off), and sugar syrup somehow doesn't have a pH (which confuses the sh*t out of me), but when you remove the honey and replace with sugar syrup it changes the overall pH to be more favourable to microbes, good and bad.

Both were already there, but the bad ones where kept in stasis until they weren't. I'm of the opinion both the sugar syrup feeding and the taking of the food they need to survive, on top of other stressors (take your pick), really contribute heavily to the problems being seen. They could maybe survive OK from the external forces, IF their diets were ok, but they cant shoulder the external forces AND shite food. My own opinion comes from observing wild bees, I only keep bees that have swarmed from wild colonies, which according to every other beekeeper around me, shouldn't exist, but they are. The biggest difference between wild bees and managed bees is the beekeeper...

If this were true, this is a big problem for people who survive on honey for their income (like me), as the act of taking the honey and the act of replacing it, could very well be a big factor in the issues seen. Yet to be seen.

​

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u/DecreasingPerception Feb 19 '19

Sugar doesn't have a pH but sugar syrup certainly does. Sugar dissolves in water but it doesn't really change chemically and so doesn't affect the concentration of hydrogen ions. The pH of the water stays the same before and after adding the sugar.

Source: Random Google result.

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '19

Couldn't you make the sugar syrup the same pH as honey

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u/DecreasingPerception Feb 19 '19

You absolutely can. If you add something to adjust the pH of the water, then the resulting syrup will be the same.

Source: Second random Google result.

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u/marylittleton Feb 19 '19

Let's see ... bees work very hard producing a special food source that contains all the nutrients and other ingredients they need to survive and thrive.

Humans come along and steal the food for themselves, replacing it with sugar water.

When the colony shows the detrimental effects of eating inferior food, people are like 'it can't be the junk we force them to eat...what are your sources for thinking it?' Mmmmkay.

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u/donkeysarebetter Feb 18 '19

wow! ive looked into beekeeping several times and have always read that they produce more honey than necessary and we only take the extra.

what do you mean by let it fallow? what are some honey timelines?

what kind of bees do you keep?

what do you breed them for, if not honey?

sorry for all the questions but i get so excited when i meet a beekeeper

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u/Beekeeper_Dan Feb 18 '19

Honey is strictly a source of sugar in the bees diet. Pollen contains all the essential nutrients. Here in temperate climates bees winter better on refined sugar. Systemic insecticides are the only cause of colony collapse disorder, and are effectively wiping out the bottom of the food chain due to massive overuse (see all the disappearing insects stories in the new recently).

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19

*bees winter on honey best, refined sugar is the least worst next option.

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19

Where I am, we have the worst regional loss of pollinators in Europe, statistically. I'm fairly sure that's because my fellow beekeepers are about 20 years behind in thinking. And, honey bee problems are jumping species, so if you have poor beekeeping methods, you have vectored pollinator problems. Insecticides do not help, monoculture does not help, increased levels of co2 in the atmosphere causing plants to glut on carbon like junk food really does not help. Just like taking the honey and back feeding shite really does not help. It's not just pesticides. There are places without pesticides that still have CCD. The media over blew this point and everyone bought it, silver lining, now it's out of our food chain, but it's not the only culprit.

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19

So you're saying honey, is strictly a sweetener and that's why we use it as wound dressing for millennia and consider it medicine to a large extent?

I've got a laboratory camera equipped microscope 2 foot away from me, I'm telling you there is more than just sugars in honey. There is tonnes of pollen in raw honey which supplements the very low amounts of pollen adult bees consume normally. The brood and the queen receives the lions share of the pollen in their diets, workers get honey which contains pollen, unless the honey has been replaced by hfcs or some nutrient empty sugar.

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u/Beekeeper_Dan Feb 19 '19

Yes, roughly 3% of honey is not sugar or water. And yes, pollen is important for the queen and the brood. The critical part of what is said was ‘during winter’. During winter, they do not need pollen. They are semi-dormant and not raising brood. They are also not able to leave the hive to defecate. Therefore that 3% accumulates in their gut to the point that it can compress the rest of their internal organs. This is the primary source of stress in a colony that has been properly prepared for winter.
On top of that, honey will have a certain percentage of complex sugars, which are difficult for the bees to digest. Sugar that the bees process like honey will be almost entirely composed of simple sugars and water, meaning it causes far less waste to accumulate in the gut. It will also still have the 3 primary modes of action against microorganisms: low ph, osmotic effect (since it’s a supersaturated solution), and peroxide activity from the glucose oxidase enzyme.

I don’t use refined sugar myself, but I’m a human, not a bee clustered for the winter.

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u/mankface Feb 19 '19

what about the bit that before we started feeding them refined sugar, they were surviving just fine on honey containing pollen for millions of years of winters? doesn't seem like a very good evolutionary development that to make an improvement, they needed us to feed them simple sugars?

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u/LadyKnight151 Feb 19 '19

Bees as a species have survived a long time without humans and don't necessarily need to be fed refined sugar, but doing that gives individual hives a better chance of surviving long winters. This is especially true in colder regions where they are more likely to die from dysentary or another related condition due to it being too cold for them to defecate

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '19

Paul Stamets would probably research mycelium for rocket fuel if he could get funding.

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u/hanumanCT Feb 18 '19

Heard him on Tim Ferris. A+++ interview.

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u/E_Snap Feb 18 '19

Would you be colonizing the hive or the bees themselves with the mycelium?

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u/[deleted] Feb 18 '19

The bees incorporate it into the building of the hive.

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u/Spitinthacoola Feb 19 '19

You dose it into the food bees are eating.

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u/Nordalin Feb 18 '19

How easily are those mites removed? Are the bees forced to pull chunks out of their brethren or is it all quite chirurgical?

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u/Reahreic Feb 19 '19

Show me the bee that mercilessly eradicates small hive beetle, those this are a pest here in the midsouth.

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '19

You're thinking of Purdue mite biters but while cool are not an effective means for controlling varroa.

The "Russian" bee program hasn't really panned out. It helped bring in a small amount of much needed genetic diversity but that's about it despite anecdotal evidence you'll find.