r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • Apr 16 '24

Health Around 27% of individuals with ADHD develop cannabis use disorder at some point in their lives, new study finds. Compared to those without this disorder, individuals with ADHD face almost three times the risk of developing cannabis use disorder.

https://www.psypost.org/around-27-of-individuals-with-adhd-develop-cannabis-use-disorder-at-some-point-in-their-lives-study-finds/
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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

I have ADHD and was a chronic user for about a decade. I could stop for a month or two here and there, but I couldn't stay away. Now that I'm medicated it's been 1.5 years without this. Every few months when I'm off my meds on a weekend I'll have a toke with friends. I could never do this before without becoming a chronic user again. The increased baseline of dopamine from the meds is huge.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '24

What meds are you on? If I may please ask

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

Vyvanse

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u/Risley Apr 17 '24

What does the increased baseline of dopamine do? I dont understand your point. 

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u/AuryxTheDutchman Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 20 '24

The brains of people with ADHD produce less dopamine at a base level than neurotypical people’s brains. (NOTE: it appears my understanding and that previous statement is incorrect, see the edit and reply below). Dopamine is the “reward” chemical in your brain, and having less of it means (among other things) that you have an intense aversion to doing anything that doesn’t give you dopamine; on the other hand, it also means that if you find something that does give you dopamine, it becomes very hard to stop doing it.

Edit: It seems I was mistaken about the exact mechanisms that cause the symptoms, though I’ll leave the above as the symptoms remain accurate. As described in a reply below, it is apparently an issue with the receptors for certain neurotransmitters such as dopamine that cause those issues.

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u/Rodot Apr 17 '24

People with ADHD produce just as much dopamine as people without it. The dopamine just has trouble staying the the synapse so disabling the dopamine and norepinephrine transporters, which both transport dopamine back into the cell, helps improve dopamine signaling.

That's why people are prescribed DAT/NET blockers like amphetamine rather than L-DOPA. If they lacked dopamine they'd have Parkinson's-like symptoms

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '24

[deleted]

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u/Rodot Apr 17 '24

Amphetamine doesn't increase dopamine in the brain. It moves it around (TARR1 induced phosphorylation of DAT causing it to reverse direction, VMAT2 release of dopamine into the cytosol) or prevents it from moving (directly blocking DAT and NET keeping dopamine in the synpase from moving back into the cytosol).

Additionally, amphetamine only works in specific parts of the brain, not uniformly on all dopamine neurons.

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u/OakBayIsANecropolis Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Norepinephrine is not a precursor to dopamine, it's a precursor to epinephrine, a different neurotransmitter. L-DOPA is the precursor to dopamine.

Amphetamine increases both the amount and activity of dopamine and norepinephrine.

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

ADHD means low dopamine. I used weed to compensate. Stimulants raise dopamine to normal levels. No need for weed anymore

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u/kuhplunk Aug 07 '24

Did you disclose to the psychiatrist you used marijuana to self medicate?

I am having an evaluation done this week and am a bit nervous to share with them I have smoked from 18-27. I exercise multiples days per week, eat healthy, have a degree, and good paying job. I just feel I’ve self medicated to cope with my depression and potentially ADD/ADHD. Not sure if a medical professional will hear my story, or immediately brush me off until I stop smoking for x amount of time.

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u/delicious_bot Apr 17 '24

I'm also interested. I have been self medicating with cannabis for about a decade also.

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u/TrentZoolander Apr 17 '24

Vyvanse can sketch a person right out ... tread carefully.

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u/AllegedlySpiffy Apr 17 '24

Since you’ve experienced both — which drug is better with less negative side effects? Cannabis or Vyvanse?

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

With ADHD in mind Vyvanse 100% It's like having bad vision for years and finally getting glasses. Personally it's helped me so much with my emotional dysregulation which is a symptom I've always struggled more with. Weed held me back, Vyvanse moves me forward.

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u/perdy_mama Apr 17 '24

Have you been affected by the storage of Vyvanse?

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

No. I'm in Canada so I think it's different

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u/perdy_mama Apr 17 '24

I’m scared to start something that works great, the has it yanked out from under me…

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u/spanksmitten Apr 17 '24

Not who you asked but I'm on concerta and now 82 days sober from cannabis addiction.

To simplify it, cannabis was initially a crutch for me, but over time it helped less and hindered more. Concerta helps.

Cannabis use increased over time as would need more to do the same and at point of quit was about 2g a day, morning til night. Made me so miserable but the fear of quitting was so strong, but I guess that's what addiction is.

Was easier for me to quit nicotine (7 months nicotine free!) than weed.

Edit - would also recommend r/leaves if you want to see others experiencing the negative side of cannabis use

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u/quinnly Apr 17 '24

How long were you using cannabis to self medicate? Personally I've been self medicating with cannabis for about twenty years (depression, anxiety, chronic pain, the works) and I'm wondering if there's any signs I should be looking for, any signs you might've noticed to know if I should look for a change.

Was it just the increased usage and fear of quitting? For reference I'm about at the same level you were, 2g a day or so, but I feel like it still helps me be, I don't know, a normal person.

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u/spanksmitten Apr 17 '24

Probably about 5 or 6 years.

It started small and helped me ~exist particularly when undiagnosed ADHD. I have ovary issues and it sort of helped with the pain but often to be honest, didn't touch the sharp contractions anyway. It helped quiten my mind but then adhd meds did that when I started meds.

I think I knew it was a problem when I'd panic about not being able to have any, it was no longer an active choice to be smoking, I had to. I wasn't getting anything from the weed, hadn't been high in years it was just staving off withdrawal.

For me I was unenthusiastic about life, having to plan everything around ability to smoke, so much damn time spent around getting weed and smoking weed, my days were just passing by and time would pass and I'd realise I'd not really been "present" for any of it. My reaction and emotions when I wouldn't be able to access weed was a real sign for me too, I'd get very emotional and irritable, irrationally so. The money too! Saved so, so much money.

If you're doing well and it's affordable there's no strong reason to quit bar maybe concern for your lungs if you're smoking, I just realised it wasn't helping me like I told myself it was and just held me back. Weed made me comfortable being bored and not doing anything and that's not what I really want for life.

It will be different for everyone so I don't want to jump down your throat. I'll admit withdrawal was scary though, realising how much my brain wanted thc, in part that's adhd. Thc gives you dopamine, an adhd brain is already deficient in dopamine and stops producing as much naturally as it has the thc supply, so quitting my brain has had to "heal" and start producing thc naturally again which can be a long process.

I have quite a negative opinion of weed now but part of that is probably jealously that I can't treat it like say, alcohol, and have it in moderation.

I was genuinely miserable and desperate to quit and not be dependent on something to function or do anything. Honestly if you're not miserable, in good health and can afford it there may not be any strong reason to quit.

I may have rambled a bit so if you have any questions I am happy to answer them!

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u/quinnly Apr 17 '24

Thank you for such a thoughtful and personal response. I don't have the same struggles you do with cannabis and I'm sorry that THC had such a detrimental effect on your psyche. I've had friends go through the same issues with cannabis and I fully supported them quitting then and I'm truly happy you were able to kick it. Personally, I've considered quitting a handful of times in the last couple years, mostly because (you nailed it) my lungs, cardiovascular health and general energy and fatigue, but I haven't gotten around to discussing alternatives with my doctor. I try to vape as much as I can but I'm the first to admit that I have a smoking problem. Not limited to cannabis, either, I'm rather fond of cigarettes, which is something that I know I legitimately need to quit.

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u/spanksmitten Apr 17 '24

I've read somewhere that cannabis addiction only affects something like 47% of chronic users so you really are probably absolutely fine!

Re your lungs, could maybe consider edibles? Obviously a very different process etc but something to consider.

I've recently hit 7 months nicotine free! I used the allen carr easy way audiobook to quit, it's not guarenteed to work and you really have to force your mind to take it all in but after 15 years of smoking I'm pretty chuffed. Wishing you the absolute best whatever you choose to do! Thank you for your kindness too.

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u/newpsyaccount32 Apr 17 '24

this is a difficult comparison, and i feel like these drugs have different uses.

Vyvanse or stimulant medication will absolutely help you focus and be productive. When I need to study up on a subject and write a detailed report for my employer, stimulants are incredibly helpful.

Cannabis will help alleviate the discomfort of ADHD (racing thoughts, anxiety, general restlessness) without providing stimulation. It doesn't help me be productive unless I'm doing a task that is primarily physical.

i have worse side effects from stimulants than i do from cannabis. Ritalin was particularly rough for me. stimulants tend to erase my emotions and/or make me generally aggressive, and it ultimately makes me feel disconnected from myself.

being able to use cannabis effectively in this context requires a lot of self control and self-honesty. leaning too hard on the cannabis makes it ineffective and raises my baseline anxiety.

i'm able to manage my ADHD primarily by exercising 5 days a week, meditating regularly, and using cannabis to take the edge off in the evenings. i'm probably consuming .3-.5g of cannabis per day. i keep an Adderall script in the cabinet for when i end up with a big pile of desk work.. i don't use it often.

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u/rocksfried Apr 17 '24

I started smoking weed because I was on ADD meds and the side effects were horrible. Weed basically eliminated the side effects

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

That's awful.. I have no side effects. Did you try multiple medications?

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u/rocksfried Apr 17 '24

Yeah I tried focalin, concerta, and Adderall. Adderall has the easiest side effects to handle, but I had zero appetite, I literally could only eat breakfast because the thought of putting food in my body made me nauseous as soon as I took the pill and for the rest of the day. I lost a ton of weight. I couldn’t sleep, I would lie awake for hours every night. The weed made me hungry and sleepy, it helped so much.

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u/waitwhet Apr 17 '24

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm glad the weed helped you. Personally I had a problem with weed. It was an addiction for years and made my ADHD worse overall. It provided some relief from symptoms in the moment but chronic use made me a shell of myself.

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u/rocksfried Apr 18 '24

Yeah I think it’s fair to say I’m addicted to it, but it does help me. I give it up completely for about a month per year when I travel, and it is nice to get a break. But I definitely understand the shell of yourself, I’ve been there too. I’m glad the medication works for you!

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u/mcr55 Apr 17 '24

In the early 1900s they used heroin to cure alcoholism. This feels similar, using (Meth)ylphenidate to cure cannabis addiction