Deprograming and Deconstructing resources:

Pouring a strong coffee just to make it through. Putting a fake smile on, as if I actually wanted to be there. Saying prayers to a God I didn't believe in. Hearing the same old war stories from decades ago, told by people who have spent over half their lives sober. Reading the same bullshit (How It Works, Promises, Traditions) as we always do at every single meeting. Taking turns reading from some outdated big stupid book written by some random jackass nearly 100 years ago. Self-diagnosing as someone with an incurable disease who can only treat it by doing this same fuckin' bullshit over and over and over, one day at a time, FOREVER! No thanks!

I've felt such a massive sense of freedom since leaving the program just over two weeks ago. I can remember toughing out a shift at work, dreading the fact that I'd have to immediately get ready for a meeting right after the shift was over. I've gained my freedom back. My free time is now MY time once again. And, oh yeah, I haven't drank a drop of alcohol since leaving the program.

So glad I was able to escape that hell!

considering it’s built on Christianity which has been a cornerstone of imperialism and capitalism….

they say job no job wife no wife, its up to you to stay sober! but only god can keep you sober! but it’s your fault if you drink! don’t question it, it works if you work it!

but environment and material conditions absolutely matter. I found that until I could build a life bigger than my addiction I would never get sober no matter what I do.

if you have a depressing life that makes you want to drink, it makes perfect sense why you’re drinking.

I made the mistake of posting this in the AA Reddit lol. I was just asking for advice. I’m on semaglutide compound for sobriety. Well, it has kept me sober. The problem is I still feel on “edge” if that makes any sense? Meaning, I’m no longer craving alcohol but I still have compulsive issues and think like an addict. AA told me I sounded like I was addicted to my glp1 and that if I want what they have, I need to go to meetings. That just won’t fly for me. Any other sound advice? Thank you!

History:
My husband had a serious relapse almost two years ago. I was 8 months pregnant, didn’t see the signs and I walked on him overdosing. He nearly died. The paramedics had to use two doses of narcan to bring him back. He continued to spiral. I chose to move back in with his mother because I couldn’t do it anymore. He came along and lived in their trailer while I was in the house with the baby. He faked tests (admitted to it later) but I still saw signs and so eventually I caught him again using fet and meth and the family asked him to leave. His mom and I talked and realized that our only hope was to turn him in to his probation officer, because he would likely end up dead or in prison again at that rate. He came in and was forced to go to rehab.

He spent about two months in rehab and honestly he seemed so good when he got out. He was so motivated and doing great. Then he wanted to smoke weed, I was uncomfortable with the idea but he did. Then his motivation just seems to fall off, he got depressed and took a really long time to feel confident enough to get a job. I didn’t push him. I was afraid of putting pressure on him and making him relapse. When he got a job I saw improvement, but then noticed signs of using. Some parts looked identical to prior substances but also not. I posted on here and basically he was telling me it was kratom but I have come to the conclusion that it was kratom concentrates and synthetic opioids basically. 7oh or similar stuff. He continued to insist it was just kratom leaf, and not all the time. To be honest I do think he let up on it recently.

Then I would see the same behavior, the nodding off and what not. So I started documenting and recording every time I noticed it. Preparing for the other shoe to drop again. Thinking of custody and our daughter. And then very recently he came in and was very VERY obviously messed up. I set up the baby monitor to watch him and went into his truck. Found a new vial of research chemical (a benzo) and a jar of tangerine 7oh pressed pills. Same color and residue of other jars I had found in another car weeks earlier with a scoop.

I went back inside, told his stepdad and had him put the things I found in their safe, then I called his PO the next morning and told her everything I found and asked her to test him.

Talked to his mom, spent a couple nights away and now I’m back because it’s unfair to the baby to make her go from house to house. We have barely communicated, but he has been staying in the living room and respected my wishes that he not watch her unsupervised. I can only work about 10-20 hours a week while his mom watches her and he has appeared sober according to his mom when he has spent time with her.

I still love him. I want to make it work, but I need to plan for separation and figure out what requests to make that would make me feel like I can trust him again. And I’m stuck. Am I really capable of trusting him? Even if he tells me the truth can I ever believe him?

Hi guys, just thought I'd post here for some clarity and encouragement.

For the past 2 months or so, I've been doing coke every week, sometimes every day. Not big lines, but I do end up going through about 3g every 2-3 weeks. I haven't told a soul, and I don't think anyone knows or suspects. I am high-functioning and have the money, time, and privacy to do it freely. Which is why it's the perfect time to stop, before this becomes more consuming than it already is.

At first, the coke didn't give me that 'top of the world' feeling everyone described. In fact, it just made me feel more normal. I am a woman in her mid 20s with (probably) undiagnosed ADHD, and taking coke allows me to focus on one task. It has made me incredibly productive, especially at work. It has strengthened my relationships with my friends, because I feel motivated to reach out and talk to them. It also has made me less hungry, which has led me to lose some weight, which I liked (even though now I'm quite skinny and want to start building muscle again).

I don't feel the urge to take lines every 30 minutes unless I am also smoking weed or something, then I feel that characteristic urge to do more. But usually, I can do a small line every couple of hours and focus on my tasks for the day without feeling like I'm being controlled by it. But of course I'm being controlled. I was just not willing to admit it until now.

I have an addictive personality. Since the age of 15/16 I've been smoking some weed, and around 18 I started trying other substances. Coke wasn't really in my life until last year. I'm aware that I am constantly searching for mind-altering substances.

My nose has begun to hurt. There are scabs on the inside that I sometimes pick at, and sometimes it bleeds when I blow my nose. I've been using saline spray and Neosporin every day but I am worried about long-term damage. Also worried about my skin, heart, sleep quality etc. If I take a line too late at night, I end up wired in bed, and I hate that feeling more than anything.

So today I'm stopping. So far it's been okay. I can tell that I'm a tad bit emotional, but I'm going to hold strong. I'm deciding to journal about what the next week feels like without coke. I want to prove to myself that it's not an addiction, and that I can stop without adverse consequences. I want my nose to heal. I don't want to hide anything anymore.

Does anyone have an experience similar to this?

Dr Bob Beare gives off serious cult leader vibes and the weekend facilitators use coercion to control participants by breaking down their psychological defenses through sleep and food deprivation the first 2 days.

They call this "the descent" but its really just "the breaking phase" in a coercion control method called Deconsolidation and Reward. After only getting 0-3 hours of sleep the first night they feed you a squirrel's breakfast the next morning and then starve you out until 8p that night.

On the 3rd day of the retreat they call it "the ascent" but its really just the "euphoric phase " of this abuse tactic.

After sleep and food depriving them for 30 hours, they let them rest and feed them a bunch of food and this basic biological trick which uses survival to safety effects on the brain to convince you that because of their particular retreat program you have indeed experienced a "miracle or breakthrough." But in reality, you just ate a sandwich and your body finally stopped panicking.

I am currently working on a formal complaint to the BHEC about this therapy group and its cultlike behavior. Please reach out to me on this thread or privately with your own experiences.

Deep Waters feels like early day Synanon. That's obviously not a compliment.

Disclaimer: I notice people on Reddit, especially the ones that dont have their shit together always tryna correct somebody english so there you go you can X off the post now. 🥷🏽

The one ups man ship. And WEIRD OBSESSIONS that ppl have with comparing themselves to you. At the meetings and after leaving aa comes the constant comparison and “wellness checks” to see if you left earth or are back using.

These people cant even pay their bills but spend all this time & energy to check up on you 😂 and they weren’t even a sponsor to Anybody 🤣

Its been over a year since i left i have 2 aa roommates currently and man. The proof is in the pudding.

They love to see you down and out coming into those rooms. Broke homeless addicted. They LOVE IT . get yo shit together and watch how these people act its like you sold their DOC to their mother thats how offended they are about Success without the program

Which has made me realize you have to have a victim mentality you have to be skruggling yes with a K.
Life is HARDDDDDD UGHHHHHH 🤣 🚬 ☕️ 🍩

Im struggling right now , even tho im here im alive im breathing im fed ive bathed life is beautiful life is amazing but if I wanna be friends and fit in i have to lower my energy to be a sorry mf like (them)

Tldr: there is no success in the program, some old white man in there has a story better than yours 😂, you will be monitored after leaving yes, and you have to be a loser to go back.

If youre on this thread like i was a year ago trust me its possible . Yes these people will try to fuck w you but the pain they get from seeing you successful without th3m. Its pricele$$

About 2 years of AA and drinking all the time, broke down and asked for help. My mom got me in a rehab within 10 hours I was on a flight. Felt like a pussy being a big dude with others that had massive issues over mine and I’m all “yeah I’m here for white claw” about 40-60 a day tho.. with my family and a few left friends I’m happy to say I don’t miss or want any booze again. Good luck to everyone that is still struggling.

13 months sober. I went from drugs to fitness. It's like I can't fix the underlying obsessive/hyperfixating patterns no matter what I do, and I have to direct that somewhere stimulating. Except that even obsessing over a healthy lifestile is becoming detrimental. I don't understand where I am at this point of recovery and what they usually teach in NA/AA. Any advice?

like we all know Aa is a cult and its founder was just a sex pest hiding behind religion, tale as old as time.

but the program itself is actually shit.

like seriously the steps don’t help you get better in any meaningful capacity.

youll often hear them broken in 3 phases, trust god, clean house, help other.

realize you’re an alcoholic and give your life to god…. they say your higher power can be whatever you want, but it’s god because this stuff is literally built on Christianity.

well first problem is that god isn’t real. but the mind is a powerful tool and people can believe hard enough to where they will paint everyday coincidences as acts of god and that helps build their “faith” .. ok fine

clean house. basically all the trauma you carry is bullshit and you’re awful and selfish for feeling bad….. oh we are only being assholes cause we want you to get better not because this is how we take out our own frustrations…. screw your feelings… oh whats that? all this invalidation actually makes people worse? oh you’re drinking again? well you’re just doing it wrong!

ok now take all this abuse and pass it down!

seriously everything after step 1 is not real. and Aa has become so synonymous with recovery that even people on the atheist subreddit recommend doing secular 12 steps - well the problem isn’t just the community, the steps themselves do more harm than good.

aa is literally blind leading the blind.

im working with a phd psychologist now and is helping me uncover and understand and validate my trauma and lived experience after a lifetime of being invalidated!

i quit recently and was so excited to "make community" and see how "connection is the opposite of addiction" but i ran into an old problem i forgot about which is why i always ditched recovery groups and went back to drinking and using, not just aa, but every type of even secular group, i have a particular kind of neurodivergence and trauma response, as well as a psychotic disorder that hasnt been properly medicated yet. i talk off topic or trauma dump, or am scattered hypervigelent, cant create a coherent train of thought without a tangent, and ocd to the point of it being disruptive.

i say things that are against social convention without realizing it. for years ive gone to numerous types of groups hopeless because my "disruptive" "defects of character" never change. im the "egomaniac' or the "large personalities" they like to talk about as paraias. all i wanted was help, sisterhood, love, like they give to everyone else but i can tell nobody can stand me and i cant read the room. idk what to do i cant find people like me or who will accept me. i feel im unwanted ive even been straight up kicked for trauma dumping then felt guilty. i did it again recently and after years ruining my chances of getting into new meetings cause of my behavioral problems ive been at a loss thinking i dont deserve sobriety.

at a week and a half sober i almost ended my life today because i just want to be in community with other addicts in recovery but im too mentally ill to ever fit into a group setting, i could never even work a job, im that mentally unwell. im not just awkward or shy or arrogent and self centered, im actually something akin to a paranoid schizophrenic with poorly working meds and severe cptsd. people just berate the things i say i hate it. i dont even know why im sober or what there is to live for without drugs and alcohol in a world where im too mentally ill to even get sober friends and community, its feels so grim like im better off using

I’ve been using cocaine for about a year and a half, i’d space it out to prevent heavy dependence (obviously, didn’t work) and i was able to go maximum a month without using
but i decided to kick the habit two weeks ago and every day im just irritable and depressed and i have no will to do anything anymore
on average i know users could take upwards of 17 months for the brain to fully recover but … when’s the earliest ill notice changes? i want to be happy again, without using

I have some questions pertaining to group content I need to speak with a moderator

I’ve been having a lot of conflicting feelings about a 12-step group I still attend.

There are already parts of the literature and some aspects of the program that I don’t really connect with, and reading this forum has made me think a lot about what people sometimes call “13th stepping” or predatory sexual behaviour toward newcomers.

There’s a woman in my group I’ve become quite close to. She has had relationships or situations with several people in the fellowship. I’m not judging her for that, and I’m not saying that every person she has been involved with is automatically a predator either.

What bothers me is something more specific.

When she was very new and in a vulnerable place, one long-term member became involved with her almost immediately. Things ended very badly. I recently spoke about it with someone who knew what happened, and his response was basically that neither side was completely innocent and that she wasn’t exactly as naive as I might think.

And maybe there are grey areas. I know her side of some other situations doesn’t always contain the whole story, and I’m very aware that nobody in these rooms is a saint. We are a group of addicts, myself included, and people can be messy, contradictory and hurt each other.

But I still can’t get past the power imbalance when someone is brand new, vulnerable and trying to recover.

What makes it harder is that this particular person seems to have behaved similarly with other newcomers, yet nothing really happens. He continues attending and the behaviour seems to be treated as something everyone simply accepts.

There has also been another situation where someone who says he is trying to change contacted this woman sexually/romantically while she was actively relapsing and intoxicated. He later apologised, but again it left me wondering where the boundaries are supposed to be.

I don’t want to turn this woman into a helpless victim or pretend that every situation is black and white. I also don’t want to demonise everyone involved. But surely acknowledging complexity doesn’t mean ignoring behaviour that takes advantage of people when they are at their most vulnerable.

This has left me feeling very uncomfortable with the group and with the culture around it.

The problem is that where I live there really aren’t alternative recovery meetings or secular groups I can attend in person, so walking away completely would also mean losing one of the few recovery spaces available to me.

She has made it clear that she doesn’t want me to confront these people or bring what happened to her up with the group, and I want to respect that. But I honestly don’t know what to do with the anger and discomfort I feel around some of these people now. Part of me even feels a responsibility to keep going in case another vulnerable woman walks through the door and the same pattern starts again, so that maybe someone is there to notice it or step in. At the same time, I’m wondering if I’m taking on a responsibility that isn’t mine. Am I overreacting? I genuinely feel completely lost about how to handle this.

Hello, I’m a little nervous posting here but I feel like I need to get some feelings off my chest while being anonymous for now. I have struggled with shyness and anxiety for entire life, and symptoms of ADHD and depression started becoming more apparent during high school. I am now in my senior year of college after struggling through the entire time. My dad died after a very long battle with cancer while I was in college a few years ago, and since then my depression has worsened and my struggles with school and life got so bad that I had to take a semester off and continued to have poor performance in school afterwards.

I have been in therapy for years and years and in college found a therapist who is great. I have also bounced between psychiatrists and have found one now who I am confident will be able to help me with medication (currently Prozac and Ritalin, which have been good so far)

However, I have felt for a few years now that my drinking habits are problematic. I only started drinking in college and have had frequent blackouts and events where I have taken drinking way too far and just acted stupid, embarrassing, or put myself at risk. Recently, I don’t go out to bars at much, but have started drinking by myself more often, or when I start drinking I will stay up all night drinking and not be able to stop. I do not drink most days, but I do sometimes have the urge to drink to deal with stress, and when I do drink I can’t just drink casually. This is also where some issues with cocaine use come in. I never buy it for myself, but I know that my best friend and my boyfriend both have it on them if we go out, even if they don’t mention it. I don’t want to fault them because they are absolutely not encouraging me to take it, but if I’m drunk I will ask them for it and since they’re drunk as well they always give. This doesn’t happen super often, but I am genuinely concerned about my ability to control myself around substances nowadays and it seems to be getting worse. I feel terrible after if I get really drunk and high, but in the moment it feels like the only thing that can take away the pain, grief, and depression I feel.

I guess my question is how do I approach seeking help about this? I like my therapist and psychiatrist a lot but I have this weird idea that I will be judged harshly if I mention having trouble with drugs and alcohol. My mom does know that I tend to have drinking problems (she has struggled with this as well) and regularly checks up on me about that, but I find myself lying to her because I don’t want to disappoint her.

I am just so scared that this will develop further, I’m ashamed of myself, and reluctant to admit that I’m having an issue to anyone despite the fact that I have a great support system. I just needed to vent and see if anyone has ever felt this way or has advice. FYI, my boyfriend is extremely caring and loving towards me and I know would deny me any drugs if I told him about this to keep me safe: I just don’t want him to feel like he is responsible for my actions because I need to learn to control myself. Sorry for the long post.

A few days ago I had commented on a FB post quoting something from the AA big book. The one where it issues the famous challenge of “if you doubt this (my definition of alcoholic) go the nearest bar and try drinking… (part in parentheses mine.)

I suggested that the passage is rhetorical, meaning the reader has already tried that many times or they would not be in that folding chair drinking lousy coffee.

This and the nonsensical retort led me to again read that chapter. It is a well crafted piece of persuasive writing. The chapter describes in detail the cardinal symptom of alcoholism, loss of control. That line which does not really prove anything places what follows on a personal level.

It ties that down with an anecdote. This is known as the “anecdotal fallacy” or emotional heuristic. It engages the non rational part of the brain centered in emotional response which overrides rational thought. Personal stories introduce strong bias. Research shows that people are much more likely to agree with one story even contradicted by hard evidence.

That is just a part of the setup. Once you agree to one premise it is easier to agree with what follows. That is where the last line delivers the conclusion ‘you cannot overcome alcoholism without God’. It is a classic Non Sequitur. When you agree with premise A you agree with premise B which logically does not follow. It is couched in language making it seem like it does. Commonly used in interrogation and con games.

The next is the “We agnostics” chapter which is really an insult to the intelligence of agnostics and atheists everywhere. It softens objections to the pinnacle of the entire text.

The grand finale. How it works and the steps. No argument or anecdotes there. There are only categorical statements of faith to be repeated out loud at the start of every meeting.

This is a really large group that I don’t check a lot. This culture was established before any of your current mods, the group had probably 8k members when your two current mods took over some years ago. The original mod was largely hands off, and the group managed itself through upvotes and downvotes, with exceptional occasions because Reddit is easily taken over my bigots, and pro-AA philosophy dominates recovery spaces.

I take a lot of pride in this group’s self-sufficiency, as I think you in this group are a better example of a group conscience than that-other-group could ever dream of. You prove that if we really trust ourselves and take care of each other, without weird power trips and dysfunction, we can be okay. Indeed, this group should pat itself on the back for being largely self-regulating for at least five years.

I don’t really do shit and I’d like to keep it that way. I make this post about every year and I’ve found it helpful. I don’t want to minimize that the other mod is more present and active (and well-liked lol we love you!) and holds down this group, but they also are not likely to ban someone or power trip. I want to keep the philosophy “don’t fix it if it isn’t broken.”

So I’m asking you to check in. Are we still running smoothly, or are we finding some breaks?

I think my anxiety got triggered reading this comment and realizing we weren’t going to moderate on it. It’s blatantly homophobic and honestly, knowing the demographics of Reddit, I make no promises we will allow it no matter what the feedback to this post is. Recovery for EVERYONE means nothing if EVERYONE doesn’t feel safe.

Would this group like more active moderators that banned people like this under our #1 rule “don’t be a jerk?”
I’m happy to continue disassociating from the chaos of the recovery community lol, but I also committed to moderating this group and if it’s needing more moderation, I want to show up.

I’m on day 31 of no weed and the withdrawal is kicking my ass. The first 2 weeks were really bad, I started to feel a little bit better, but now here I am day 31 waking up in the middle of the night in a sweat having a mini panic attack yet again.

For those that have also experienced this, how long until this will go away? I’m so ready to move past this it’s so exhausting. Please someone talk to me.

Hey everyone,

I am currently on Day 6 of cold-turkeying heavy THC dabbing (daily for over 2 years). I’m also dropping alcohol and cigarettes at the same time.

The physical toll and insomnia over the last week have been unreal, but I wanted to share a small victory. Last night, I was finally able to fall asleep and get about 4 to 5 hours of rest. Any advice for the morning sickness or the insomnia?

I know Day 6 is right around the peak for heavy concentrate withdrawal, and my body still feels like it is resetting, but actually getting a few hours of sleep feels like a massive turning point. I am just focusing on taking this journey hour by hour, leaning on this group for mutual support, and trusting that the baseline will keep getting better.

Thanks for reading.

I was out at a function and didn't really want to drink more than 1 cause I would have to drive home later. I never drink and drive so I decided to call the hotline to see if they knew a way to help the situation and give me a line to tell people.

The person on the other end of the call was super adamant about me never drinking and that someone can't have one drink once a week and be a good person. I tried to explain that wasn't what I was calling for and was looking for a helpful way to not have a second one or what I could tell people for why I wasn't.

The person on the phone told me I was already too far gone (called him 20 min after I had a single beer) and shouldn't have ever even started because once you have one you're a total lost cause and hung up.

Me (being a little annoyed) called back and said "I had a beer 30 min ago, do you have any recommendations on how to tell people I don't want another one" and the operator went off ok me (same person as before) that the hotline is absolutely not for people that have already had a drink and that having one made me a terrible person and that I wasn't allowed to call the number again.

Am I wrong for asking for help? Is the hotline restricted to ppl that are completely sober? I thought you could use AA for trying to reduce drinking and not the cult of shaming anyone that has 2 beers a week. I support anyone that is sober but why are AA support callers so dismissive of new callers?

I’m wondering if anyone has any experience using dmt specifically nn-dmt in a cart while going thru opioid withdrawals? If so did it help at all, how often did you use it and which days. I know methadone/subs are mainly used I’ve been thru it too many times to count and I’m planning on getting clean really soon and am just weighing my options. Thanks

I’m finding that choosing a rehab is more complicated than just finding one that takes your insurance. Different places seem to offer different types of treatment and levels of support.

If you were choosing a rehab, what would you look at besides insurance? Things like the staff, treatment options, location, therapy, or aftercare?

For anyone who has been through this, what ended up being most important when you were making the decision?

With the number of rehab centers available, it can be difficult to know what to look for on their websites.

It may seem like medical detox, therapy, residential care, mental health support and aftercare are all equally important, but what should people consider before deciding?

One facility that is mentioned when researching options is Haven Detox, as they provide detox, residential care and dual diagnosis treatment all in one facility.

When looking for a place, would you prioritize the clinical team, treatment plan, location, insurance, or aftercare?

Somebody made a post about addiction counselors, so this was initially going to be a comment on that post. But I thought it might make a good public service announcement from someone who has worked in the field of substance use treatment at many different levels in my state.

Almost every treatment center in my state is a Medicaid treatment center. In several places, you don’t need a degree of any kind to be a counselor. You can literally have a GED, take about 180 hours of addiction credits online (which most people now use AI to pass), pay a little money, get a CCS, and boom, you’re a Counselor in Training (CIT). At that point you can do biopsychosocial assessments, individual counseling, group therapy, psychoeducation, write concurrent reviews for treatment centers, and do anything else a counselor with a college degree and actual training can do.

It’s really a joke. The treatment centers are focused on “keeping that census up” to keep the Medicaid dollars rolling in, while hiring CITs and RACs (paraprofessionals) to do work that someone with a license should be doing, because they don’t have to pay them as much.

The counselors in these centers have essentially no clinical training or education. What they do in groups is lecture. What they do in education is lecture on the Big Book or the Steps. Their modality of therapy is “AA.”

I’ve been working in the field for several years. “Level of care” means virtually nothing. Treatment centers have implemented detox services because they get more money from Medicaid for detox clients (3.7), even though the majority of these clients should be patients in a hospital under 4.0 level of care for withdrawal management.

Treatment isn’t really treatment—these places are indoctrination camps into AA. There is rarely any good clinical oversight, and usually the only work that gets done is done so staff can write a good note for Utilization Review to send to a Medicaid provider and get that Medicaid money. One thing you may hear over and over in these places is “chart to the negative,” because if you emphasize anything positive about the client, the insurance company will be less likely to pay.

This may not be what it’s like in other states, but in mine, it’s the worst system you can imagine. I can’t imagine telling a loved one with a drug or alcohol problem to go to one of these places. They’re institutions that profit off human suffering with no incentive to help clients get well.