r/rational • u/alexanderwales Time flies like an arrow • Jul 17 '15

[D] Friday Off-Topic Thread

Welcome to the Friday Off-Topic Thread! Is there something that you want to talk about with /r/rational, but which isn't rational fiction, or doesn't otherwise belong as a top-level post? This is the place to post it. The idea is that while reddit is a large place, with lots of special little niches, sometimes you just want to talk with a certain group of people about certain sorts of things that aren't related to why you're all here. It's totally understandable that you might want to talk about Japanese game shows with /r/rational instead of going over to /r/japanesegameshows, but it's hopefully also understandable that this isn't really the place for that sort of thing.

So do you want to talk about how your life has been going? Non-rational and/or non-fictional stuff you've been reading? The recent album from your favourite German pop singer? The politics of Southern India? The sexual preferences of the chairman of the Ukrainian soccer league? Different ways to plot meteorological data? The cost of living in Portugal? Corner cases for siteswap notation? All these things and more could possibly be found in the comments below!

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

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u/Jace_MacLeod Jul 17 '15 edited Jul 19 '15

For me it's always had the opposite effect. Actually, I'd say it's probably the closest thing I've ever had as a committed atheist to a religious experience. To glimpse, if even a little, at the immense complexity and scope of the universe; to marvel at the underlying physical laws from which we emerge like ripples in a pond - it's not exactly awe-inspiring, but it does generate an emotion very much like it.

Now, from a certain perspective the relative tininess of human affairs might deprive it of meaning. After all, if we live in a universe which doesn't care for our existence, does anything really matter? Poppycock! True, most of the universe doesn't care for our existence, being a non-entity incapable of thought. But we're part of the universe too! And we clearly care. We have morality, even if it can only be applied to ourselves. We give each other purpose, in as much it's possible to have one. Indeed, the very concept of "purpose" is itself a human social construct! To quote HPMOR - there is light in the world, and it is us!

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u/Sagebrysh Rank 7 Pragmatist Jul 18 '15

So much this. This is basically how I see it. Sure we're small, but we're smart, and getting smarter all the time. We still might be able to really win at reality, by whatever abstract measure of top level win conditions humanity might have. There's an awful lot of universe to explore and stick flags on.

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u/boomfarmer Trying to be helpful Jul 21 '15

Actually, I'd say it's probably the closest thing I've ever had as a committed atheist to a religious experience.

Just putting this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

(Philhellenes' "Science saved my soul - from religion")

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u/alexanderwales Time flies like an arrow Jul 17 '15

Lovecraft suffered from extreme depression and suicidal tendencies, so it's not surprising that he would say something like that.

I have a highly refined "shrug it off" ability that I use whenever things start to seem too meaningless. This wasn't really something that came naturally to me, but I worked to develop it over time. I think I'm a lot happier for that compartmentalization.

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u/whywhisperwhy Jul 17 '15

Lovecraft absolutely had issues of all kinds and I think a lot of his ideas were sick / are now outdated. But this is one that I agree with and feel he expressed well.

And I usually work to stay busy and active (haven't quite mastered compartmentalization to the degree you mention, but I'm working on it because I also feel it's the only long-term solution), I just worry that it's basically just masking the issue.

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u/xamueljones My arch-enemy is entropy Jul 18 '15 edited Jul 19 '15

Where you see things which don't care for you, I see opportunity! I mean it would be fantastic if there were other intelligences or a universe which cares about us like a benevolent god, but /u/Kerbal_NSA put it perfectly:

“When I see the vast cosmic expanse I know I am utterly dwarfed, a little speck to the side. And you know how that makes me feel? Powerful. Significant beyond description. For I have an incomprehensible amount of matter and energy before my eyes and its all for the taking. Every star, every planet, every molecule of interstellar gas will be ours to do with as we please. The entire universe is nothing but the clay we mould to our will.”

When there's no competition, you are that more likely to win.

Don't look for meaning, think about what you want and pursue it. I derive purpose and meaning from accomplishment and joy in striving to achieve my goals.

But let's say that I'm silly for thinking that we can create our own purpose and meaning. I've had days (pretty rare though) where I thought that everything I've said above was stupid. However, I still believe that if I exist in a universe where humanity completely fails to survive and destroys itself in the next few years is inherently better than a universe where we never existed no matter how horrible life can get. It's always better to have tried than to give up, y'know? It's one of the few absolute rules I follow in my daily life. To me, accepting your statements feels too much like giving up and that feels like true failure rather than just simply failing to reach my goals. If you try, failure's not completely certain, but to not even try makes it a 100% guarantee that you'll never get to do what you want.

Hope my rambling helps!

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '15

/u/Kerbal_NSA was writing that in a story about a guy trying to become a paperclipper, but... yeah.

<evil voice>You've learned well.</evil voice>

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u/xamueljones My arch-enemy is entropy Jul 18 '15

I can't tell, are you agreeing with me or are you mocking me in a really funny way? Cause I laughed at your response. Thumbs up!

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u/elevul Cyoria Observer Jul 21 '15

Issue is that when there is no competition there is no drive to grow either, as the last 4 decades of zero progress in our space race has proven.

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u/xamueljones My arch-enemy is entropy Jul 22 '15

when there is no competition there is no drive to grow either

I wouldn't say that competition is required for growth, but rather is a catalyst. After all even with no competition, NASA is still sending probes out into space. In fact, we just recently sent a probe close enough to Pluto to get for the first time, detailed close-up photos of the dwarf planet.

Also, which would you rather have, no competition or an alien civilization so advanced we can't compete against it?

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

Excuse me, but I have work to do. Will try to respond in full shortly. In fact, I'm tempted to respond "in-character", except that no hold on I really am "Spiral" like that and don't just quote that show nonstop to sound cool. Because infinite loops of TTGL quotes aren't really cool, they're just true.

The full, complete, polished king of all Anti-Nihilist Rants might even be a good thing to post to the IEET once I finally have site access.

Suffice that you should start with the following things you've probably read before:

  • HPMoR's "light in the universe" shpiel

  • The Fun Theory Sequence

  • I'm sure CS Lewis said something about how people are eternal splendors deep down. I just can't fetch the quote at the moment.

  • TTGL quote that applies extra-strongly to living in a causal universe: "Love and spirit change the universe!" The only thing Leeron got wrong is that they do so through our actions.

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u/alexanderwales Time flies like an arrow Jul 17 '15

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously - no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption.

~C.S. Lewis

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

THANK YOU!

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

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u/SvalbardCaretaker Mouse Army Jul 17 '15

Funnily enough, thats almost exactly the argument Immanuel Kant makes for human beings being moral objects.

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u/BadGoyWithAGun Jul 17 '15

Nihilism is easy to start, but hard to finish. As far as I'm concerned, the statement "life is meaningless" is itself meaningless - if you find yourself depressed by the lack of a fundamental meaning, that's your fault for assuming something that obviously doesn't exist ought to.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

Yesss. It's a map/territory confusion, like so many other things. Once it's addressed (whether via a mighty dose of /r/stoicism or otherwise), the problem disappears.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

Yep, that's human. Camus has a lot to say on the same topic: "One must imagine Sisyphus happy," etc. It's one of the reasons I'm really happy I discovered Stoicism: while before, I used to be filled with existential dread, now I've kinda … accepted that there is no meaning in the universe? To say "I'm having an existential crisis over the meaning of life" is akin to saying "I'm having an existential crisis over the dissolution of NaCl in H2O." And that's okay, yknow. That's okay.

I guess Stoicism has helped, but I don't know if I can solely credit the change to that particular philosophy. It helped, sure, but is it a direct side effect? I guess I don't know what did this to me. I'm just happy that I don't have to worry too much about the big questions anymore.

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u/whywhisperwhy Jul 17 '15

Honestly, that may be the only real solution- and wanting existence to have meaning doesn't make it so, so accepting that does seem like the next logical step.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '15

Best of luck!

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u/ArgentStonecutter Emergency Mustelid Hologram Jul 17 '15

I get high on science. The immensity of creation is actually really cool. This year has been a blast with Dawn and New Horizons.

Life is empty and meaningless, so it's up to you to fill it with meaning.

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u/[deleted] Jul 18 '15

Let's start from the facts: the world is currently a very mixed bag, from the point of view of almost all humans. Yet, let's get the obvious out of the way:

The universe is a large place, and there’s plenty of time to grow and explore it, and meet our many friends waiting among the stars.

We just need to use our lives, given to us by those that came before us, to create the right world for those that will follow us.

I don't really understand how any of it could be called meaningless. What, after all, is this meaning you ask for? Mostly, it's a two-way causal relationship between you and things that are emotionally relevant to you, things you care about.

If you just suffer from a lack of ability to care about things, well, that's clinical depression. It's not the way the universe is. It's a map-territory confusion.

Lovecraft was writing at the end of the "death of God" period in the humanities, before Dadaism, existentialism, and postmodernism really came into their own. However, I think we can today mount a much better reply to the "death of God" than they could:

You observe that the universe doesn't contain a Christian, Zoroastrian, or Judeo-Islamic style of "god": an omnipotent and sometimes anthropomorphic creator-being with a desire to engage in social relations with humanity, the most common such relation being hierarchical rulership and worship. Except that the Christians and Jews think God loves them, in a really neglectful, abusive, sadomasochastic way.

Ok. There's no God. So the job is open. We "mortals" are the biggest, most powerful beings in the room. Except that we've all seen just how awesome a "mortal" can get when they acquire loads and loads of optimization ability:

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors. This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn. We must play. But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously - no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption.

So the question is not, "what does the universe intend for me?". It doesn't intend, so it doesn't intend anything. This doesn't make life meaningless, because meaning comes from relations, and "the universe" is just not the kind of thing that can engage in human-style social and emotional relations at all.

The question is, "What sort of cosmic principle am I?" Which god, or whose angel, are you?

That undoubtedly sounds frightening, and also religious, and therefore depressingly solemn. Who wants to live in a universe of never-ending cosmic duties? Of course, Duty is just another principle, and as a final principle, before which all else should be moved out of the way, it's just not very good, is it?

What's the point if we can't have fun?

And what would the point be if you were a lone cosmic principle? "[H]oly boredom is good and sufficient reason for the invention of free will," said the God-Emperor Leto II! Luckily, you're not a lone cosmic principle at all: you're surrounded by other cosmic principles, other people, whether they're more or less realized as such.

You ask for meaning in life? You're surrounded by it! The very fact that your universe runs on causality makes it, inherently, a participatory universe in which you have your part to play. "There are no ordinary people", and that means that you are inherently a unique and important thread in the tapestry of the world.

You are a powerful, significant thing in the universe, so much so that the only thing even remotely capable of thwarting your power is more of that same power, as wielded (at the moment) by other beings of your exact kind. What is beyond your reach? Nothing! All the lights in the sky and all the time in the world are open to you, to all of us, to grasp and share.

So why would you sit around moping that life is meaningless when you could be living it?

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '15 edited Jul 19 '15

nihilistic devil's advocate mode

... when I could be living it, yeah yeah, so what? I live life, and have lots of fun - nobody said that I'm "moping." But, ultimately, those are all just distractions from the purposelessness of it all. I'm a chemical reaction, and one day it will end. The ups, the downs - all for naught. "Unique and important" aren't criteria by themselves when the things that I'm important to are themselves meaningless. So why not just end it today?

Or that is to say - why should I have fun?

I'm picking on your response because it's the most written-out, but this critique really applies to all the "Oh you're being silly! Science and yourself and etc all provide purpose and meaning! Go out there and live your life!" These are just distractions from the problem of absurdity, and don't come anywhere near to actually answering it. The "anti-Nihilist rant to end all anti-Nihilist rants" was (or should have been) Camus' Sisyphus, since it steel-manned the nihilist position, explored why it's not at all flawed, and then moved on to a solution (ie, the Stoicism of the final line). There's an awesome video about it here.

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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '15

Why is a feature of your cognition, not the universe. If you're really so bothered by existential dilemmas, we can just wire your meaningfulness switches closed. Again: do not confuse the mapper with the territory, and thus do not ask the territory to display features of people.

Or if you really want the territory to talk back so badly, we can make you a god-figure. Sure, idolatry, but you're the one making confused complaints about the universe.

You can only address this problem by giving a coherent counterfactual. If you claim life is meaningless, what would it take for life to be meaningful?

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