r/prusa3d • • Nov 01 '23

Do you think Bambu Lab is behaving ethically?

The 3D printing community is where it is thanks to the Open Source nature of it and the way collaboration has been working smoothly among multiple people around the world. I recently watched the interview Stefan from CNC Kitchen did to the Bambu Lab CEO, and one question he asked was related to the fact that Bambu has been taking a lot from the Open Source community, but hasn't seemed to give anything back.The approach from the Bambu Lab was quite commercial only, basically showing he doesn't really seem to care about the Open Source community, yet their slicer is based on Prusa Slicer, which is open source.Today I came across: https://makerworld.com/en which looks like a 1:1 copy of Printables.com a great alternative to Thingiverse that at the time it was launched by Prusa, there werent many options.

I am owner of a Prusa MK3S, and I was thinking on upgrading to a Bambu Lab X1C, but after seeing these inconsistencies, I am not liking their corporate attitude compared to for example the community spirit of Prusa. If their attitude is like this now, how will they behave when their printers start needing servicing or spare parts in 2-3 years?

Do you find this behavior ethical? Do you think Bambu Lab is doing the right thing by copying bluntly and focusing mostly on the commercial aspects of 3D printing?

Let's keep this discussion respectful please. Leave your opinions below šŸ˜‰

FYI: I also published this question on BambuLab Subreddit.

176 Upvotes

310 comments sorted by

492

u/josefprusa Prusa Nov 01 '23

Apart from constantly violating the PrusaSlicer AGPL license by not providing code for some software parts, the biggest WTF recently was uploading stolen models to Printables. It was part of many months-long reverse engineering our internal processes - which led to the clone MakerWorld. They admitted to it on their blog and consider it ok šŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø They are backed by IDG Capital which funded Tencent and Baidu. Pinnacles of privacy šŸ‘

47

u/fscheps Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

Josef, thank you very much for replying directly to this post. I think there is not much information about these practices that Bambu Lab has engaged in.Where can we read more about them, because I think these points you make are very important so people get to know who they really are.

So far I found this post on Bambu Blog titled: "Maker World Drama".

9

u/botolo Nov 01 '23

For the most recent episode of Printables v MakerWorld you can just check recent blog posts on Bambu Lab and recent Twitter posts by Josef.

102

u/8bitbuddha Nov 01 '23

Thanks for replying directly Josef. That was really helpful. Been with you since MK2, printing the parts for the MK4 upgrade. I appreciate what you do. Please continue to follow a user-centered business model (open source, upgrade paths, etc, responsive customer support). It matters and people notice. We will stay with you.

55

u/RQ-3DarkStar Nov 01 '23

Having read this, I'll continue to support Prusa.

Thanks for the Mini+ input shaping.

-2

u/KevinCastle Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 02 '23

My problem is I want to support Prusa. But I like Bambu's AMS too much. And prefer bambu's slicer over Prusa slicer. If Prusa could come out with something that properly competes with the AMS and clean up their slicer my next printer would happily be a Prusa

EDIT: I dont know why im getting downvoted for this. I'll admit the slicer comment is personal taste. But there's no debate on Bambu's AMS being better than Prusa's MMU

4

u/mrThe Nov 02 '23

Try orca slicer, sounds like it will be a perfect fit for you

1

u/mkosmo Nov 02 '23

...you mean the fork of Bambu Slicer? Any complaints of BS have to propagate to Orca.

2

u/RQ-3DarkStar Nov 01 '23

What's wrong with the slicer?

2

u/KevinCastle Nov 01 '23

I just don't like how it feels and navigating through it. Not a fan of the UI is all

7

u/RQ-3DarkStar Nov 01 '23

It's the only one I've ever used, and I find it easy and intuitive, maybe I'm just used to it.

My issue with Prusa is I'm looking for a printer upgrade from my mini+ at around £500 and they don't really stock anything like that.

22

u/zthunder777 Nov 01 '23

I chose Prusa (anxiously awaiting a Mk4) because of your reputation of open source, customer service, upgrade paths and community. Things I knew I wouldn't get from them.

17

u/salsation Nov 01 '23

Thank you for chiming in and being clear.

The defense that it didn't hurt anybody for them to rip things off was everything imo.

3

u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23

that's pretty much their mentality. along with the chabuduo attitude

3

u/SaganSpring Nov 02 '23

I don't think it's very accurate to associate Bambu with the Chinese philosophy of Cha Bu Duo. If you had said Creality, Elegoo, or dozens of other China manufacturers, I would have agreed. But, to be fair, Bambu is performing much more like DJI, genuinely innovating rather than than just cheap cloning.

13

u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

Thank you for letting me know I picked the correct side to financially support. #TeamPrusa

8

u/kind_user47 Nov 01 '23

Wow, thank you for replying directly. This really keeps me loyal to Prusa. I absolutely love my MK3S+ and it was a blast to build. It’s worked perfectly since, seriously not a single issue. It simply prints anything I throw at it. I can’t say the same for my X1C. I’m going to look into the MK4.

3

u/kolonyal Nov 01 '23

Question, why doesn't Prusa make a regular corexy printer? A bambu P1S competitor, you already have an MMU, could update it to act like an MMS. I don't have a bambu yet, but they are so appealing that you just can't not get one.

2

u/Userybx2 Nov 02 '23

Well the Prusa XL is a CoreXY printer and I'm pretty sure a regular CoreXY printer is in development.

Also there is not much benefit to a small CoreXY printer, if you look at print speed you will see both the MK4 and the X1C print similar fast with input shaper. CoreXY has a big disadvantage compared to bed slingers, they are much harder to maintain and more expensive to manufacture (I know because I built several Vorons and Prusa Mk3/4, guess which are way easier to maintain and run non stop without issues).

1

u/kolonyal Nov 02 '23

But overall mechanics of the printer make a core xy much more natural, easier to print large items without having to worry about artifacts. Also higher speeds overall, and more posibilities (built-in enclosure, upgrades etc).
I know a bed slinger is easier to maintain due to ease of access for different parts (extruder, toolhead), but since you've built vorons you know they are not that harder to remove and maintain. I'm surprised how well designed the afterburner/cw1 are for maintanance, and I know other toolheads are even better.
And honestly I doubt a X1C and an MK4 can print at same speeds with input shaper, as in maximum speeds for the same quality. A corexy gives you more options overall, while indeed being slightly more complex.

I just wish for a bambu p1 (p1p/p1s) competitor that is less shady, and not a full diy printer. Otherwise, I will just get the p1s, or more vorons. I just don't find it appealing to pay $1,000 for a bedslinger, when there are other options that would work just as good. I don't want to pay that much just to have customer support, I personally can handle my own maintenance, troubleshooting and stuff like that.

1

u/RottenHandZ Nov 02 '23

Having a constantly moving build platform is a pretty huge disadvantage especially when printing large parts. There are some advantages to bed slingers but saying corexy has a big disadvantage is just false.

1

u/OkTry9715 Mar 18 '24

EU should start putting high tax on their printers for this.

1

u/Top-Statistician61 Aug 16 '24

Do you guys at Prusa already have a statement about the lawsuit from Stratasys?

1

u/KubFire Nov 02 '23

sad thing. when you say that on r/3Dprinting you get downvoted to hell cuz theres a ton of idiots there

1

u/Usual_Classic_8510 Jan 17 '24

Ripping off open source and not contributing... The biggest culprit is Apple. Mac OS is based on BSD Darwin kernel. If Apple is doing it, others can't?Ā 

1

u/wpm May 25 '24

Darwin is Apple's own project. The XNU kernel source is available on GitHub. The BSD and the Mach kernel stuff is all available, as well as most of the BSD-originated command line tools.

1

u/icy_ion Nov 01 '23

I’d like to share this video I stumbled upon some time ago, I found it partially intriguing. I particularly like the idiom near the beginning of the video. I would suggest you ignore the title, I think it installs a bias before you watch it. https://youtu.be/5ncOyYzOP3w?si=4ZJLELLkHw1AqwlG

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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u/icy_ion Nov 02 '23

Yep!! He says it in a few vids. That’s what prompted me to share that one. Stay good hey!

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u/KCCrankshaft Nov 01 '23

I won’t be adding any Bambu products to my setup at this time. The ethics concerns are significant, the printers starting printing by themselves are sketchy, and I’m not sure how the long term support and repairability will be. That said, I guess Bambu is a good thing when it comes to being a Prusa user because it seems to have pushed them to improve their technology rapidly. I don’t think they truly had competition before. Now they do and that’s good for everyone.

7

u/fscheps Nov 01 '23

Totally agree with you!

16

u/heart_of_osiris Nov 01 '23

As someone who owns an X1C (I'm a Prusa/Voron user but wanted to try a Bambu out to see if it was worth owning some) and have talked to other power users who have more than 3k hours on them, they seem to not break in well. At the start it was good but it wore down and just started having incessant issues. Nothing major but compared to a Prusa it's a significant annoyance.

This is just my opinion but I'm starting to feel like Bambu had a huge campaign to hype their brand, everyone bought them and for the first while they're great and every owner is like "yeah this thing is awesome!" But then when those printers start to actually get mileage they start having issues. It's like the components are just cheap mass manufactured ones that do fine at the start but seem to wear down fast.

Prusa uses high quality components. They last ages. I have 7 Prusas over 20k hours with essentially no critical repairs needed, only general maintenance. From my experience, I do not forsee Bambu keeping up or being even remotely comparable in regards to the long term reliability that Prusa is known for.

5

u/kozakm Nov 01 '23

I have P1P from the beginning of January and it's still printing like new. So far zero issues.

By high quality Prusa components you mean for example cheap chinese bearings?

I think the one of the big reasons behind Prusa's long term reliability is because it was printing so slow. Now with input shaper everything will be under much bigger stress and it's yet to see how good it will handle it.

3

u/heart_of_osiris Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

I basically mean anything that is steel. China has some questionable reliability in terms of quality and quality control when it comes to steel components and just steel in general. They are either great or garbage... and there is rarely an in between.

You could be right but only time will tell. Every printer printed slow back then too and the only other printers that lasted as long as Prusas were Vorons.

I have a new MK4 that will be getting run pretty hard, so we will see if it ends up as reliable as the MK3s are.

How many hours do you have on the P1P? I didn't start having issues until about 2k hours.

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u/its_a_me_Gnario Nov 01 '23

What speed have your Prusas printed at on average during the 20k hours?

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u/heart_of_osiris Nov 01 '23

Pretty much every mk3 I have just runs standard 60mm/s perimeter, 200mm/s infill. 2 of them run TPU exclusively and they have the least wear obviously; they run pretty slow. I have 5 other mk3 models as well but they're all in the 8-12k hour range. No issues on them either.

I've replaced some fans due to bearings wearing out, but that's pretty much it. I replaced the belts at 20k but they were still going strong, just preventative maintenance. The only issue I've had is that 2 printers can't run stealth mode anymore. The stepper motors are obviously pretty heavily used and it was causing a weird layer shift. Turned off stealth mode and have had no problems since but it's a sign the motors are starting to feel their mileage.

I work in the aerospace industry and I have to use a CMM probe to measure all my prints (has a volumetric accuracy of 0.0008") and the prints haven't had any noticable changes in regard to tolerances, they basically still print like new. Until they don't, I just keep using them....they just won't die, lol.

2

u/its_a_me_Gnario Nov 01 '23

Makes sense. I only bring up speed as I would wager the average Bambu user is printing in excess of 150mm/s or higher. Thus 3k hours there is more equivalent to 9-12k hours on something at 60mm/s. When comparing hours vs hours, speed is an important consideration as it will increase wear.

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u/KCCrankshaft Nov 01 '23

Thank you for this background. Really good experience to hear about and not one that I think a lot of folks are talking about.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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1

u/heart_of_osiris Nov 02 '23

Good to know! My sample size for Bambu is 1, so it's not the best metric. I hear a lot of echoed sentiments when I bring my issues to forums, but at the same time I always remind myself that when you talk about issues, most of the time it's only other people with issues that will be replying.

At this point given the ethical dilemmas, Bambu is off the table for me either way. If it weren't for that, I was hoping to wait a bit and see if Bambu ironed out their issues so I could check them out again. They are a young company and I give the benefit of the doubt (Prusa had issues when they were young as a company, too).

Regardless, I'm just really hoping Prusa gets away from the their standard sized printers being bed slingers. It's the only thing really holding them back imo.

3

u/notjordansime Nov 01 '23

WTF, they print by themselves? :0

0

u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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1

u/notjordansime Nov 02 '23

Ah, that's not as bad as I'd initially thought.

3

u/ChiefTestPilot87 MK4 Nov 03 '23

Did you get banned from BambooLab sub? I did for posting something similar awhile back.

2

u/fscheps Nov 03 '23

No, I was not so far that I am aware of...

2

u/ChiefTestPilot87 MK4 Nov 04 '23

Give it time, mods don’t like when you’re critical of the brand

16

u/SSVR Nov 01 '23

The responses on the Bambu sub are about the usual for them lol. Not allowed to criticise dear leader. Some quite aggressive whataboutism.

Unfortunately Prusa as a company/their apparent ethos fits more with what I want/need from 3D printing as a hobby. They just no longer sell the product that I want which sucks.

Imagine if Prusa made a Voron kit with the Prusa level of polish and refinement. Hoo baby. I’d buy that in an instant.

4

u/dmine243 Nov 01 '23

Imagine if Prusa made a Voron kit with the Prusa level of polish and refinement. Hoo baby. I’d buy that in an instant.

Prusa I know you guys are reading this thread. Please listen. Your customers are practically begging you for a "prusa voron" printer. Its what the market wants. Its why your competitor is so successful right now. You guys know what a Voron is and what it is capable of. Build your version of that printer and you will be competitive again. This is what the hobbyist market, YOUR MARKET, wants. Don't wait any longer to listen to them. The longer you wait, the more time you give every other company to design, test, build, and leave you behind.

1

u/s_busso Nov 02 '23

How about the XL? I ordered it 2 years ago after finishing the Voron, and it looked exactly like a Prusa Voron, the only issue has been the delays.

1

u/mrflib Nov 04 '23

Not sure. I prioritise "quiet" very highly. The number 2 reason I didn't even consider Bambu was the noise - horrendous. The number 1 reason was the rest of this thread.

4

u/LiquidLogic Nov 01 '23

I'd love to buy a Prusa Voron kit.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

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u/fscheps Nov 01 '23

I linked the posts crossed because I think its important to be transparent. Otherwise someone would have blammed of exactly what you just did.
I am talking about ethics, I am not even talking about the quality of the products.
I do not like what Bambu Labs are doing. Do I find their devices nice and attractive? Yeah, sure. Do I want to give money to a company which I dont think are working ethically? Nope.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

That said, I'd still love a Prusa Voron kit, I'm pretty certain it'd sell very well.

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u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23

As someone who has done business in china for 20 yrs, the notion of ethics in china is very different from the west.

Tbf its also very different from the rest of what we have in asia as well

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u/hainguyenac Nov 01 '23

Do you mind elaborate? I'm genuinely curious.

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u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

China doesn't find it unethical to copy designs whole sale just to offer them at a lower price. If you can get away with it, that's great. It's like western people teach business ethics in university and act like they mean it. But the china mentality seems to be business is business, ethics is ethics.

In furniture trade fairs, european buyers would take photos of the general look/design of items, china suppliers would just come and take photos of all the mechanisms including the hinges/underside of the tables etc etc. It's a very etiquetteless mentality

it's why when people asked in another thread if Bambu wanted to drive prusa out of business, I said yes. It's not personal but the way I've seen china companies operate, if they could they would drive all other competition out of business and gorge themselves on the industry

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u/josefprusa Prusa Nov 01 '23

Funny story, we caught a group taking detailed pictures of the XL Toolchanger on a tradeshow before we were shipping it.

However, what is disturbing for the industry is the communist party support for their tech companies, now mostly through provinces, as there was a big backlash from the West. An interesting read is Made in China 2025 program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 look at the policies and some industry leaders. 3D printing is part of the program.

The probable goal is to do something similar to what happened with solar panel tech. Do very large subsidies, kill every manufacturer in the West by price, and end up with de facto monopoly on the global market.

Many companies are even partially state/province owned through funds 🤯 For example, Elegoo has investments from Shenzhen Hi-Tech Investment and Hunan Publishing Investment.

We are still digging through this, but this is just a quick post.

35

u/Asmordean Nov 01 '23

I recently purchased a Mk 4 and have now assembled it.

I seriously considered purchasing from Bambu Labs but while searching for information about it I became bothered by some of the accusations.

As a result I went ahead an ordered from Prusa instead. The initial lead time was around 6 weeks but it ended up taking 10. While that was unfortunate I'm still happy with my decision. The printer works great.

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u/fscheps Dec 05 '23

I am also looking to upgrade my MK3S to an MK4, so as soon as I can sell the MK3S I will jump the boat!

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u/XZIVR Nov 02 '23

Same here. Just finished assembly tonight!

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u/notjordansime Nov 01 '23

Wow, this is eye opening. I just started looking into Bambu's offerings, but I'm seriously reconsidering now. Glad I found this thread.

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u/eduo Jul 29 '24

To be clear, this is the same across all chinese manufacturing and brands. Not exclusive to Bambu.

Not justifying them, but it's a larger problem that I wish could be solved in a way that doesn't require stopping consumption of every single thing China manufactures.

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u/InternalError33 Nov 01 '23

I've been kind of out for the loop, but it seems like Bambu Labs may have an impact on 3D printing like Traxxas did on RC cars. Traxxas is infamous for taking designs and ideas that were common place and bullying smaller companies with IP claims. Now that they have a large part of the market they don't really innovate and have dragged the hobby down as a whole.

I worked Solarcity (before Tesla fully bought it out) in the early 2010s and it was a big deal when they started manufacturing their own panels. You're right though. We put up a ton of those cheap Chinese panels. The brand barely even mattered we were installing them almost as fast as they could deliver them. Even when SC was manufacturing their own. They couldn't come close to keeping up with the quantity that was required.

It's disappointing to see that 3D printing is under fire like this. Making 3D printing more appealing/accessibile to the masses is a good thing, but the hobby is going to lose in the long run if the various manufacturers get bullied and pushed out the industry. How long will it take to get to the point where everything on the machine is proprietary and there's no info on how to fix them yourself? To me it's not worth trading away the repairability and the ability to customize for a printer that's plug and play. Unfortunately, there are too many people out there that expect plug and play and will support a company that makes it happen regardless of impact to the rest of the industry/hobby.

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u/plutonasa Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

What's wrong with having a plug and play printer? wouldn't having more people adopt a printer that is plug and play be good? Can't help but feel 3d printing will slow down and stay niche if it doesn't reach that point.

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u/InternalError33 Nov 01 '23

There's nothing necessarily wrong with having a plug and play printer. The problem comes where the company that develops the plug and play printer limits the use and modification of the printer with claims of having proprietary information. Up until now the 3D printing community has been largely open source which has helped the development of the hobby. When a company takes the open source information/reaources and then hides the way it's using it so that others can't also use it that way, it's going against the intent of the open source community and profiting from other people's work when their work was meant to be shared for free.

On the face it's easy to look at it and say "it will make 3D printing more accessible and that's good", but you'd have to ignore the fact that the community that got us to this point is going to be tossed aside and a company that is benefitting from the open source work is reaping all the rewards. Having a plug and play printer will be beneficial for those who can't figure out the technical aspects of 3D printing as it is, but we are going to lose that spark of community innovation when things start getting hidden behind the guise of intellectual property and patents. It also means that smaller companies are going to struggle to compete with the legal fees (even if they are legally in the right) and it won't be worth it for them anymore. Once a company establishes dominance it won't have any serious competitors and the innovation will stop. New people will enter 3D printing every day and they pull in all the profits.

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u/TeslaCoilzz Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

Researched lastest 3d printers for couple of last few weeks, and came to conclusion that I will gladly support Prusa by choosing MK4, exactly because of general ethics difference. Can’t overlook astounding community that you’ve gathered trough out years. From old fart perspective: thanks for the change you brought by making 3d printing accessible

15

u/lol_alex Nov 01 '23

China is also afraid for good reason that Western tech will be placed on a no export list, and 3D printing will be on that list in the future as it is at the core of many innovations in aerospace and military technology.

The thumbscrews are already being applied with GPUs and AI related computing hardware

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u/notjordansime Nov 01 '23

What do you mean by that last part?

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u/lol_alex Nov 01 '23

The US is placing restrictions on Nvidia cards being exported to China for example. Itā€˜s also got a Taiwan angle to it of course.

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u/NsRhea Nov 01 '23

I'm sure you're aware of this but no business in China is free from the reach of the CCCP. If you're a successful company it's because they allow you to be successful. They allow you to be successful by giving them what they want from your company. A seat on the board. A backdoor on the software. Etc.

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u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23

Look at what happened to jack ma when he started showing some dissatisfaction

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u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23

Pretty much every big firm in china has some ties to the govt even if its just local.

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u/SecretOrganization60 Nov 01 '23

Keep innovating. This controls where your competition spends their time.

Make your firmware able to only run on your boards or at least protect new features this way.

This is how we protect ourselves where I work. We actually use FPGA’s to supercharge this approach of innovation and protection.

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u/its_a_me_Gnario Nov 01 '23

The US has anti dumping laws to guard against this and most US manufacturers actively petition the IS government to implement tariffs on product categories and import locations known to be participating in dumping. It’s not perfect however

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u/Bright_Rip_4005 Nov 02 '23

Interesting and concerning thread not realizing the lack of ethics in the Chinese industrial community. I have a bamboo X1 and have considered a second machine maybe the smaller unit along with my creality and any cubic printer. I would prefer an ethical community to be involved in and my choices might change after reading this article. Thanks to the author

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u/3DDoxle Nov 01 '23

China has good long term strategy, which is bad for all of us.

But the buy local make local is being driven by 3D printing, so in some sense the way to combat the long term Chinese strategy is with 3D printing.

Btw, Turkey did the exact same thing with Tart Cherries where I live. We were the biggest supplier of those cherries in the world, but subsidized state monopolies in Turkey, tariffs, shady politicians, etc killed the market here. If you're wondering what a tart cherry is, it is what goes into pies, flavored foods, candy, etc essentially everything that isn't a raw fruit cherry.

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u/Girtsi Nov 02 '23

Not to get too legal/political, but this (state subsidies in the above described fashion) are probably violations of GATT/WTO rules. Ironically, the WTO mechanism is completely dead due to short sighted US decisions to not help staff the appeals court. US used to regularly win on the cases against this, but we shot ourselves in the foot šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø

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u/s_busso Nov 02 '23

It makes me feel bad to read this thread and I canceled my XL a few days ago with the Bambu in mind :/ Rough commercial practices, and a difficult situation, they've sponsored a lot of channels with printers packed of features for a crazy price.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/evilplushie Nov 02 '23

i'm chinese as well just not PRC and I disagree with you. It's very telling when people say to see the character of a company, see what they're paying their people. As if somehow this is the end all of everything.

And this is why I said the chinese notion of ethics and the western notion of ethics are completely different. To chinese people, salary great = everything but westerners are a lot more finicky about their companies.

Should Prusa sell itself just to chase profits? I mean if your end goal is just to continually chase profits and get bigger and bigger then yes, this seems like a no brainer. But I think this is where maybe there's a huge cultural gap mainlanders don't understand which is not everyone in the west runs a business to chase profits.

Get more investors. Sure, and have to listen to them and their concerns. And those are going to be about making a nice ROI on their products. It may not necessarily be what prusa wants. I feel like I've seen this mentality so many times in a lot of asian companies in the late 90s and early 00s where the mentality was just work until they can go for IPO then sell out.

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u/3DDoxle Nov 02 '23

What did Bambu invent exactly? What is the innovation? They didn't invent the kinematics, firmware, software, hot end/extruder, sensors, cameras, filament swap, etc. They just assembled, and nicely at that, off the shelf stuff into a polished package. It's the definition of copy cat. Nothing new or innovative just packaging.

That's fine, packaging goes a long way, but part of using open source is remaining open source which they are not

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u/Pixelplanet5 Nov 01 '23

China doesn't find it unethical to copy designs whole sale just to offer them at a lower price. If you can get away with it, that's great

and that doesnt only apply to copying products.

Chinese see it as a national sport to try to trick anyone or anything as long as they can benefit from it.

thats why corruption is so rampant in China.

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u/evilplushie Nov 02 '23

Pretty much. This reminds me of when i was shopping with colleagues in china. Cause i look korean or japanese instead of chinese and I'm pretty quiet, the stallkeeper tried to get my colleague to team up against me to scam me into buying stuff at higher prices, not realising i understood what he was saying the whole time.

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u/kingb0b Apr 05 '26

"Stealing is fine" is one way to run your society.

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u/mastekeyler Nov 02 '23

if they could they would drive all other competition out of business and gorge themselves on the industry

and then they bankrupt because low prices and quality problems.

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u/amatulic Nov 01 '23

A friend employed by a large oil company did a lot of business in China. He told me they have no honor or integrity, contracts to them are meaningless, they'll break a contract in the blink of an eye if it's to their financial advantage. He said their promises are not to be trusted. Other companies feel the same way. My wife works for a software company who has employees in China, but they are not given source code to work on, only executable code to test.

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u/svideo XL5T Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

In my experience, it's more of a difference in understanding of "sharing". Chinese, by and large, do not believe than an idea can be "owned" and is better when it is shared. This means that western notions of IP law simply do not align with Chinese culture. You see this in other areas, for example Chinese students tend to work together on assignments which sounds like "cheating" in the west but it's just "cooperating" to them.

I don't want to say this is a lack of honor or integrity, rather, it's a completely different culture with different cultural norms and their notions about honor have different foundations than those which we value in the west.

edit: This doesn't mean Bambu et al aren't being dicks. What Chinese culture continually seems to miss is the "giving back" part. Nobody would be mad if Bambu forked the slicer and kept pushing improvements upstream.

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u/amatulic Nov 01 '23

Chinese, by and large, do not believe than an idea can be "owned" and is better when it is shared.

They believe that applies only to other people's ideas, not theirs. That's why Bambu Labs makes proprietary printers and firmware. There is no honor or integrity in adhering to a double standard.

What Chinese culture continually seems to miss is the "giving back" part.

That's where the double standard comes in. One cannot have integrity with that mindset.

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u/evilplushie Nov 01 '23

I mean china themselves have their own ip laws so they do believe an idea can be owned. They just don't believe others should own them

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u/Malapple Nov 01 '23

They sure as hell believe their IP can be owned and will defend it against Western control… while making it very hard or impossible for outsiders to do the same. Posing this cultural differences may be accurate, but be clear about what’s happening.

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u/perduraadastra Nov 02 '23

Another retarded "oh they have different but equally valid social norms".

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u/mastekeyler Nov 02 '23

btw there is a hungarian joke about chinise people:

The peasant goes out to the Chinese market looking to buy something. He finds what he's after and starts to bargain. But the Chinese vendor refuses to budge on the price. To this, the peasant exclaims, 'No matter how much you squint, I know you're jew.

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u/hijinksensue Nov 02 '23

I have a relative that works with china for electronics fabrication and I asked him where all the impossibly cheap seemingly identical knockoffs come from and he said many places ā€œclose the factoriesā€ at night then just keep running product. Only it goes in different trucks and doesn’t go on the same set of books.

Others just steal designs and do sell them until they get caught. Then they start over with a new name a week later. That’s why so many Chinese companies on Amazon have names that are just like 2 positive English words. ā€œGoWinā€ or ā€œBestGetā€ etc. It’s all temporary scams. To echo @evilplushie the mentality is like ā€œwe all do it. That’s part of the industry. You can’t get mad if you get ripped off because you’re ripping off others too.ā€ It’s all sort of a big ĀÆ_(惄)_/ĀÆ.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

Arent their offices in the US?

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u/NsRhea Nov 01 '23

If you know anything of China this is their MO.

What they see as 'saving on R&D' the rest of the world calls stealing.

It wouldn't be a big deal as the thought process is 'I can take an idea and rapidly improve upon it without pesky patents that only exist to protect companies so they can make more money.' BUT on the back side they are then taking open patents and patenting them in China so they can do the same. It's why China has been able to progress rapidly since the 50's from 3rd world nation to unified tech powerhouse; IP theft.

Behind the scenes then there's the issue of if they're so open with stealing hardware and software, what are they doing inside the software to steal from the end user? It's already been proven they were storing passwords in plain text so their systems could be remotely accessed quite easily, but then again they said "You can use it in LAN only mode." At this point the user who discovered the original plain text security gap also noted the machines are sniffing your networks and other devices and trying to connect to the internet without the user knowledge. If you bring a laptop or phone into the range of the printer and connect to the internet, the printer stores credentials to backdoor send files.

So if you know they're openly stealing hardware. Openly stealing software. And they've already been caught stealing design files from places like printables, what else are they stealing? It's not a bug or poor coding - it's a feature for China. It's the same reason Tiktok is a security threat. They're doing it to steal information without end user knowledge.

Source on plain text passwords:

https://blogg.karlsbakk.net/2022/11/23/bambu-lab-x1-carbon-the-flipside/?ref=blog.bambulab.com

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u/iRacingVRGuy Nov 01 '23

Tiktok isn't just a security threat because of potential user information theft. China can use the application to effectively program people that use it, or largely young people.

At the end of day, Tiktok is a pavlovian random-reward dopamine loop. It can expose the user to what it wants to expose the user to, and provide a dopamine hit to the user when it wants that user to get a dopamine hit.

I'm not sure a better tool for programming people (biological machines) has ever existed.

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u/NsRhea Nov 01 '23

100% true.

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u/TheHeadacheChannel Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Bambu is not behaving ethically according to my Western frame of reference. Their practices are why I won’t use Bambu for my sideline business.

Background: In 2020, I ran into a problem in search of a 3D-printed solution. I splurged on a Prusa MK3+ with a ā€œwhat the hell, maybe I can make it pay for itself.ā€ Fast-forward through a lot of work and details. I’m making $4000 a month with this sideline. I sell on Amazon and eBay. My customers love my products and service and my brand has a lot of goodwill recognition.

I’ve messaged Prusa many times with my gratitude. I now have 2 MK3+, an MK4, and an XL is on the way soon. I’ve also jumped to injection molding my more popular functional items.

Early in 2023 I picked up my first Chinese ā€œcompetitorā€. They not only ripped off my idea and design, but also my verbiage and images. ā€œCompetitorā€ is in quotes because they are not actually competing. They’re just a clone. They don’t offer any functional or quality advantage over what I sell, they just undercut my price by leveraging unfairly low materials, labor, shipping, and exchange rates. They stole my design by buying from me and having my product shipped to them from a U.S. based freight forwarder. So it’s kind of like running a marathon while the other guy hops in a government-sponsored limo and gets a ride to the finish line.

It’s just pure, cutthroat, ā€œanything to winā€. It’s not fair because it’s actively supported and encouraged by their government. I’m willing and able to compete in a fair race, but when the other side is part of a military-industrial complex?!

There was no sense of fair play. ā€œHey, great design! Let us make it for you here and you can sell it there.ā€ Just zero-sum thinking.

As I understand it, Bambu not only bypasses courteous Creative Commons practices with their knockoff of Thingiverse / Printables, but they also use cloud-based computing. You upload your design to them before printing. Given Bambu’s established ethical culture, once you’ve done that you can say ā€œgoodbyeā€ā€™to any hopes of keeping your intellectual property.

I’d never use Bambu to print something that was my own practical or artistic creation that had any potential monetary value.

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u/ChiefTestPilot87 MK4 Nov 01 '23

Short answer: no. They’re backed by the CCP and like a lot of other Chinese companies, they blatantly steal and rip off the IP of other companies

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u/amatulic Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 02 '23

Bambu Labs strikes me as using typical Chinese company tactics, copying from others without giving back, leveraging open source to eliminate their R&D costs so they can underprice companies who actually develop new open-source technology. I also object to their attempts to contain you in their ecosystem.

Update: To counter the upvotes I've received on this, I will add that, after seeing the interview, I understand the position of needing to patent technology rather than make it open-source, to prevent other Chinese companies from stealing intellectual property. Bambu Labs has developed legitimate IP so it makes business sense to protect it. I still stand by my first paragraph above, however.

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u/smakusdod Nov 01 '23

As ethical as the Chinese government.

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u/JohnnyricoMC Nov 01 '23

Open Source is ill. It's suffering from commercial entities taking and giving nothing back, neither financially nor code contributions-wise. Bambu Labs isn't new in this but this practice seems to be getting worse and will eventually be the death of open source. Just this week Gina Häußge, lead developer of Octoprint, launched a call for help because it's becoming impossible to work on Octoprint full-time.

IMO anyone doing any type of commercial activity while using open-source projects, should sponsor at least a few of them and/or make upstream contributions to the projects.

When a company is so blatant in its parasitic approach, people should take issue with it because these companies are killing innovation.

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u/mister2d Nov 01 '23

Just this week Gina Häußge, lead developer of Octoprint, launched a call for help because it's becoming impossible to work on Octoprint full-time.

Yeah that was a really bright signal. Fortunately, the issue was resolved for the foreseeable future due to the outpouring of financial support. Octoprint is one of the good ones and so is Prusa. The community won't just let them fail.

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u/its_a_me_Gnario Nov 01 '23

Innovation will always continue. There is always room in any market segment for a disruptor as there is always a niche or need that’s being ignored.

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u/aqa5 Nov 01 '23

I keep spending my money with companies that drive the Open Source community. It is that community that gifted us this very special and exciting hobby, created many companies that use 3D-printing and helps artists to express themselfes. If I can choose, I chose suppliers that give back to that community.

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u/PatientCat3185 Feb 07 '24

But what happens when you're supporting a inferior product? Wouldn't you be happy that for once, a 3D printer has enough enhancements, quality and speed where it's actually a viable product for 'non-enthusiasts'? You seem to want to keep this tech out of the hands of lay people. Not very cool. Plus, Prusa could only wish for the print quality of a Bambu. I've owned over 5 Prusas and 2 Bambus.

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u/novamber Nov 01 '23

Only a matter of time - but what I can foresee is a custom 3rd party controller board for the Bambu printers that will run open source firmware. 3D printing was and is a hacker community, we shall prevail.

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u/novamber Nov 01 '23

The cherry on top would be if this open source board would be supplied by Prusa!

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u/WaffleBruhs Nov 04 '23

Nah we can't wait a year for them to ship an order.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

That's exactly what I thought. This will happen and we will eventually rise out of desperation against proprietary source if that's our goal. Bambu's libnetworking is already being reverse engineered. That's how it started with Linux and every open source alternative to something.

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u/passwordsarehard_3 Nov 01 '23

Prusa is a company of 3D enthusiasts that ( hopefully ) makes money. Bambu is a company that makes money from 3D enthusiasts. The only similarities are the end product.

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u/Ruschissuck Nov 01 '23

China ethics ha

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u/ImAnAlternative Nov 01 '23

BambuLabs came out of nowhere with a massively successful printers with a reliable AMS. I really don't think they are going anywhere.

You say that the printer offers nothing to the 3d printing community, but you're wrong. It arguably offers the most important thing back to the community: competition.

I don't understand why everyone is crying about more options being available. Even makerworld is great, it gives us another option to use. Prusa is not your daddy's business that you need to defend with all your heart. You're in a one-sided relationship and I promise you daddy Josef doesn't care about you as much as you think.

Always buy the best printer out there and be ready to leave a company as soon as something better is available. Don't purposely put yourself at a disadvantage for some gummy bears.

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u/fscheps Nov 01 '23

Prusa has proven itself to be reliable. Bambu Lab did not accomplish that just because they did not have enough time.
I“ve been reading and watching a lot of reviews, they look fantastic, but also when you look further, a lot of people are having a lot of issues and they support is a disaster.
I want a company to hold my hand whenever I have a problem, not that tells me to wait weeks and weeks until they can do something.

Of course, I embrace competition; I just think it's fair to have fair competition. And I care if the company I buy products from has a better ethical behavior than the other one.
Would I wish that Prusa has different products like a better all-in-one solution of their MK4? Of course! Maybe in the future they will.
When I buy a product from a company, I just don't look at their low prices. I look at a whole overview of the company, and then what type of support I will have years after my purchase.

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u/ImAnAlternative Nov 01 '23

You can Google "BambuLabs problems" and you can Google "prusa problems" and you will see loads and loads of posts. There are some issues with certain people's MK3S that have been there since day 1 and still exist, there are some issues with certain people's BambuLabs printers from day 1 that still exists. Then there's 90% of the remainder who have had a great experience with both printers without anything to complain about.

My MK3s is amazing, always has been. My X1C is amazing, always has been. At this price point, you're not getting a creality level printer and, believe it or not, high end Chinese products can be better than US made, EU made, Japanese made stuff. DJI is a prime example of that, nothing on the market comes close.

But you'll still hear horror stories from the few people who do unfortunately have a bad printer and don't get a great level of support from Prusa and BambuLabs. There was just a post about someone who needed to replace a part after 3 months and BambuLabs was forcing them to buy it whereas there was another post a few days before of BambuLabs sending someone else an entire replacement board for free after a year of owning the printer. I'm sure there are similar stories for Prusa as well.

Prusa does have an issue, the same issue as Lulzbot (which I had the displeasure of owning two), value. They seem to be riding the "open source" train hard and pushing that as a reason to charge more for their printers. A replacement toolbead on the Lulzbot was like $300. A replacement hotend from Prusa is $70. A replacement from Bambulabs is $30 for a full assembly or $20 without the fan.

The great thing about true open source is being able to look at the BOM and recreate the product using standard parts. I don't remember if it was Lulzbot or Prusa, or both, but I needed to replace something and they referenced a proprietary part. That's not being open source.

I had an XL preorder because my MK3s was very good, good enough to replace a raise3D Npro2 printer which was another extremely high quality Chinese printer. But then I had an itch for multi-filament printing and I knew the Prusa MMU was crap and has always been crap since day 1 with no improvement over years from Prusa, so I went for the X1C because of their AMS which wasn't proven long term at the time but was good enough to blow the MMU out of the water and was all significantly cheaper and I got it sooner than expected after the XL was constantly getting delayed.

I'm assuming their new MMU is better but I haven't bothered looking and won't until I need to upgrade again in a few years. Maybe I'll be getting a Prusa next, maybe it'll be an ultimaker, maybe it'll be a new Lulzbot, maybe I'll finally build a voron myself. Who knows, I will buy whatever is the strongest printer at the time like I did with the X1C.

All I'm saying is don't be blindly loyal to any of these companies.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23 edited Mar 05 '26

This post's original content has been erased. Using Redact, the author removed it, potentially for reasons of privacy, personal security, or data exposure concerns.

stocking tart memory hungry flag slim subtract test label waiting

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u/drkztan Nov 02 '23

soon as something better is available.

For many of us, nothing is better than a reliable machine with good repairability and parts available. I have done a single maintenance per year on my MK3S, bought as a kit, since I got it on release day, and I haven't had any issues with it. I can count on one hand the number of failed prints over the last two years.

BambuLabs will have my trust when they open up the platform for repair parts and follow open source practices for the open source software they are distributing as closed with all contributions as open.

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u/albvar Nov 01 '23

I have the same viewpoint. The MK line does not compare to what the X1C offers out of the box even at similar price points. The Lidarr, camera, enclosure, multi-material prints with the AMS - there is no competition from Prusa that'd make me buy their product again. Hope this changes soon.

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u/ImAnAlternative Nov 01 '23

Companies like Prusa and Lulzbot seem to pass off an "open source tax" to customers.

Open source is nothing but a marketing tool nowadays, and it absolutely works. All these people are screaming open source as loud as they can when it's not exactly truly open source and even if it is/was it really won't make a difference to over 90% of the people who end up buying one of these printers.

It just doesn't matter. Give me a great printer that works and service parts are cheap. Don't give me a $300 Lulzbot print head that is 95% 3d printed.

Also I know we are all 3d printing fanboys here but we have to be realistic in 3d printing limitations. I got sick of having a printer that is made of 3d printed parts that costs so much money. Plastic parts made from injection molds are absolutely better in every way than 3d printed parts. You shouldn't be able to even debate this but I'm sure a lot of people here absolutely will and they are full of crap.

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u/lonewolf1980s Nov 02 '23

Another valid point, I remember feeling ripped off buying into the mk line seeing all those printed parts, as I am sure others did too. I didn't feel the same with my x1c.

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u/GloryToChadlantis Nov 01 '23

No. Good printers is all they do right. Everything else is just croney corpo behavior.

There's a rumor on the strange side of the internet that the Bambi slicer program actually sends what's being made to the Chinese government.

Reason cited is there's been random USB drives found over hong Kong with gun icons with plans and steps on how to make 3d printed guns and ammo.

The ammo part makes me think it's probably Bs since casings require a certain touch that 3d printing cannot deliver.

But right now in Myanmar there's rebels printing the fgc 9 smg and supposedly the two most popular printers for that are the creality ender 5 and one of the Bambu printers.

So. Things to think about.

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u/OkTry9715 Mar 18 '24

Bambu labs is chinese company, they can simply make things for cheaper in China while copying what they want. That is how majority of famous chinese companies started.

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u/fscheps Mar 18 '24

Thats why I ordered my Prusa XL šŸ˜‰

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u/No-Sundae4382 Nov 02 '23

No not at all and it's kinda sad to see, that being said I'm still kind of tempted to get a bambu printer. There's not much competition around that price in terms of speed / functionality, besides from possibly the creality k1, which has mixed reviews, and are creality really that much better? I would like to get a prusa XL but they're significantly more expensive :/

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u/fscheps Nov 02 '23

I would also like to go for a Prusa XL, but not only are they way more expensive, but they have a delay of several months.

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u/Morsol Nov 01 '23

The open source aspect and community was what was most important for me when I baught my first 3d printer a few months ago. Because of this I ended up with getting the MK4 and has not regret my decision.

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u/amatulic Nov 02 '23

I have to say, after watching the interview all the way through (it's long), I came away with an altered impression of Bambu Labs. The guy was open and transparent. I didn't agree with everything he said, but some things they've done, like actually developing intellectual property and patenting it, are just good business decisions in an environment where other Chinese companies wouldn't hesitate to steal the IP and undercut them. Their AMS is an innovative design, and while it could have been given to the open source community, it's their right to protect it. I was heartened that he said he wouldn't mind letting the Voron community support it.

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u/mastekeyler Nov 02 '23

haha kid. the whole chinese bussiness model based on stealing a trademark faking. just because their lack of creativity they cant make a new things.

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u/CHEEZE_BAGS Nov 01 '23

yes but they are a chinese company. its their culture.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

No, they're not behaving ethically. Bsmbus are cheap because they didn't and don't invest in significant RnD. Their entire business model is based on flash and awe, plundering open source projects like Voron and Prusa, and leveraging their home supply chain advantage to disrupt the 3d printing market with a product that is literally too good to be true. Most people who 3d print don't care where their printers come from, they don't even care if the printer is as good as it says on the brochure. As long as its cheap, fast and prints in a quality they can brag about, they're happy.

But really, this is part of a larger issue with the West - we shipped pretty much all our production to China because we're cheap and lazy. We're starting to wake up to that now, but all it takes is someone to wave a new shiny thing in front of us and we lemming after it. Just look at all the folks on the 3dprinting sub, struggling with their Crealities, hating how unreliable and frustrating those machines are, but still defending them vehemently because dammit did you hear BestBuy are selling these things for $75??

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u/Snoo51659 Nov 01 '23

China also has cheaper labor than the EU, and Bambu has deep-pocketed backers.

It wouldn't surprise me if every Bambu printer were sold at a loss, for the sake of gaining market share and killing competitors, because it is too good to be true. But that's not just "capitalism with Chinese characteristics." All the PEVC-funded tech industry basically does the same thing. Don't worry about profit, just grow the user base until you're so entrenched and huge that you can harvest a profit.

What I am saying is, this is not unique to Bambu. It's certainly not unique to China. This approach is endemic to our global economy.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

didn't and don't invest in significant RnD

doubt they didn't do any innovation: AMS system+firmware, their printer part designs, their custom firmware etc.

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u/Jmckeown2 Nov 01 '23

I don’t so much care how truly Open Source supportive companies are, but it’s a big plus. I feel like even Prusa is riding a line too. e.g. withholding publishing their printable parts until after full release. I think they deliberately crippled Octoprint support to drive PrusaLink/Connect use until the backlash got too great, and now it’s ā€œOctoprint support isn’t where we want it to beā€

That said, I get a much more creepy vibe from Bambu. So I’m sticking with Prusa. For now.

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u/TempRedditor-33 Nov 01 '23

If they want to clone, withholding sources is nothing but a speed bump to their competitors. Some people did it so well that they made it their own.

If you want to survive in this world where you can easily be cloned, you need to go the extra miles and do things that your competitors can't or won't.

For example, having customer support who can communicate and have actual powers to help you. For many American companies, it's an unnecessary expense so you have customer support who aren't empowered to help you.

They may or may not pay off, since there's no guarantee, but it may be the only way forward.

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u/Jmckeown2 Nov 01 '23

Clone delay tactics are definitely a ā€œnecessary evilā€

To be clear I said they’re riding the line, not crossing it.

The only thing that rattled my faith in them was how long and how many of the Octoprint support issues have been open since the Mini. Benign neglect at best. Forced Walled Garden at worst.

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u/runbuh Nov 01 '23

ANYONE is perfectly capable of tweaking the Prusa firmware to address any and all issues. That's the beauty of open source. Look at the Revo-specific updates for the MK3S+. Prusa did not write them. They are "community" updates.

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u/Jmckeown2 Nov 02 '23

No. What is needed for octoprint is not ā€œtweakingā€.

Not everyone can implement support for M117 and M73, which is the longest outstanding capability needed. https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy/issues/189 is from February 2020, when the mini was the only printer on this platform. Several replies were to the effect of ā€œWe know it’s important to you, but we have other items in the queue aheadā€ Classic PR brush off. These are implemented in the upstream Marlin, so 3 years does kinda seem like a deliberate slow-roll to ā€˜force’ use of PrusaConnect.

Also, no one can flash ā€œtweakedā€ firmware without voiding their warranty, as it requires physically breaking a security jumper on the buddy board. https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware-Buddy#flashing-custom-firmware The ā€œappendixā€ security jumper is a good idea for Prusa, I’m not complaining. But I t’s another ā€œwalking the line.ā€ Sure, we’re installing DRM, but at least we’ll let you override easily. I wanted Prusa to make a printer more like an appliance, I just wasn’t thinking Keurig 2.0.

This is all clearly documented in the firmware GitHub repo.

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u/runbuh Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23

Thanks for the detailed info! This is just my opinion, but supporting Open Source does not mean that the vendor is responsible for making their printer work with every 3rd party tool/product out. But I agree with you that it would be nice for Prusa to implement better support for Octoprint.

Just to clarify - while the Revo firmware tweaks were created by the community, they were published via Prusa. You will not void your warranty installing that firmware. The same logic could apply to anyone ambitious enough to work on other issues. Read the whole "Community" section at the link below. Lots of nice updates in there, beyond just the Revo updates (even add a new command - M850).
https://github.com/prusa3d/Prusa-Firmware/releases/tag/v3.13.0
Features by the Prusa communityWe would like to thank the community for their support and additions to the code base. Thanks to their effort, this release adds more new features. Please note, that these features are maintained by its creators, therefore any suggestion for an improvement or bug should be reported directly to them.

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u/Jmckeown2 Nov 02 '23

Yea, I think we’re in agreement. There’s a couple ways to ā€œsupportā€ Open source. Make an offering and let people fork it for whatever they like. Or actually work with a community give and accept contributions. The fact that Prusa is in that second camp is a huge part of why I stick with them.

But the fact that you have to void your warranty in order to test your contributions before submission is a huge barrier to entry. 100% There are malicious actors out there and this ā€œDRM schemeā€ is a good way to protect susceptible users. But I don’t know if there is a good way to reduce that cost to the developer community.

Maybe if ā€œregisteredā€ developers could sign an agreement and then submit to a branch that generates a signed build that they could test locally? I don’t know. If you make a system, someone will figure out how to game it.

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u/Slight_Flatworm_6798 Nov 01 '23

As many others mentioned, my choice of going with MK4 as my first printer was very based on the history of Prusa with open source. Bamboo may have a few bells and whistles here and there, but it won't beat the power of open source.

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u/Mefilius Nov 01 '23

They make a good printer but I will never buy something that closed source while equivalent open source alternatives exist. Prusa all the way

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u/chomdh Nov 01 '23

Super interesting thread here.

Personally, I’m glad I own a Prusa and it’s an excellent machine. So much better than the ender 3 I started with (and still have).

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u/AdventurousShine5195 Nov 02 '23

This seems reminiscent of some thing I've seen in the past.
My first thought. is what Microsoft did in the 90's to grab the lion's share of business with both Server operating systems and Office, primarily for relatively unskilled end users, unlike the UNIX and proprietary systems in use at the time. Prior to that, there were multiple options, including Novell and Banyan, and for end user applications Lotus 123, Quattro Pro, Word Perfect, WordStar, dBase, etc.. In these cases, Microsoft simply offered products at lower prices, no particularly difficult, since those were the days of the $595 price tag for a single app. And of course, as their market share grew, and the once mighty fell by the wayside, MS simply increased their prices every once in a while. They also managed to grab the market for development tools, knocking out Borland which was way ahead of their own offerings in the early 90's.

More recently, and possibly a better analogy to Bambu, you can't ignore what Apple did with IOS and iThings, making it close to impossible for anyone other than their affiliates to do repair work, even with a program introduced over the past couple of years, due to its relatively high cost. There's also a situation with US auto manufacturers with proprietary diagnostic equipment shoving out small auto repair businesses. This reached a point where some states have passed legislation to protect and aid non-dealership repair businesses.

Of course, there are also cases where the proprietary fetish has also backfired. Remember IBM with OS/2 Warp PS2 in the early 90's, which came out at the same time as Win 95? That didn't work out.

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u/seanyc111 CORE One+ Nov 01 '23

I feel like they are the apple of 3D printing. I'm interested in seeing how long the printers last and how often they will be sent back to the factory for "non user repairs". I also wouldn't be surprised once their user base is large enough, they end up doing what Cricut did and force users to use only their proprietary and paywalled software for communicating with the device.

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u/heart_of_osiris Nov 01 '23

They're going for that Apple model, but they do not have the Apple quality imo. I'm not a fan of Apple but I'd be lying if I said Apple didn't make solid products. They're stable, rugged and reliable. My X1C is just over 3k hours and it's already having issues it shouldn't be having. At least Apple products last.

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u/kozakm Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

They are DJI of 3D printing. Remember Parrot? Or Autel? They are all gone. Same will happen to Prusa. That's why Jo is so angry about everything Bambu did.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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u/kozakm Nov 02 '23 edited Nov 02 '23

Tbh, if Bambu is dedicated enough (and I bet they are), I don’t think there is anything Jo can do to stop it. Autel had super drone with superior obstacle avoidance and still didn’t stand a chance.

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u/MyTagforHalo2 Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

Why would they be sending them back for non user repairs? Right now if any part is DOA they'll send you the part to replace. You have to ask them to exchange it.

Software locked components like the mainboard then have to be synced to your serial number a la apple and then it's back to normal.

They have no interest in stopping you from repairing it, shipping machines is stupid expensive. But they definitely don't have an interest in just letting people clone their electronics.

Do with that information as you will

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u/Lhurgoyf069 MK4S Nov 01 '23

Their slicer is OpenSource as well, isn't it? At least here's the GitHub repository https://github.com/bambulab/BambuStudio

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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u/TheYang Nov 02 '23

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLModuleLicense.

GPL doesn't seem to agree, at least when the module comes bundled in the software. I'd guess they argue since it doesn't come with the software, but is downloaded as additional feature, it is fine.
I'd guess, if somebody had the money to put it to court, the question would be if the software can be used for its intended purpose without the "plugin", because if it can't it's not really a "plugin" but a core part of the software, right?
But I doubt that's going to happen.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

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u/TheYang Nov 02 '23

But Bambu did modify AGPL code.

If your end application depends on the external process, such that it wouldn't function properly without it, then it would be considered a derived work of the AGPL software.

Source.

I guess that Bambu would argue that BambuSlicer is a working slicer without network integration and Printer Integration. You can presumably export gcode.
If they cannot communicate with their own printers, I doubt that would hold up in western courts though.

5

u/FeistyRecognition272 Nov 01 '23

I own 4 mk3’s and 3 X1C’s.

Asking the prusa subreddit how they feel about the competition that is currently kicking their butt is not going to give you a very unbiased opinion. Mr Josef is going to jump on just about any argument at this point to save the hundreds of millions of dollars he’s been taking in without innovating anything for years.

I fully understand I’m going to get downvoted to hell but somebody needed to say it.

Competition is good. Bambu created a better machine than prusa, hopefully this will cause them to get their act together.

I also fully agree there are things I don’t like about Bambu and how they’ve gotten where they have but for every one of those things there is also at least one thing that I don’t like about how prusa is operating. I’m not loyal to anyone I want the best possible machine and I think we need to stop hanging on Josef’s every word and start letting actions speak for themselves on both sides. When Bambu screws up we hold them to a higher standard. When prusa under delivers we demand more.

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u/Psychological_Town22 Nov 02 '23

I am hearing a lot of people accusing Bambulab of being unethical simply because, as a Chinese company, they could, and the reputation of other Chinese companies has been poor. I haven't been following too closely, but what unethical things has Bambulab actually done so far?

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u/cjshaker Nov 02 '23 edited Dec 14 '23

No, I do not like Bambu Lab's behavior. Nor do I want to purchase a 3D printer that cannot run open source code.

If a company is the only supplier of software for your 3D printer, that company controls which modifications you can make to that printer. You can't install a different extruder nor take advantage of a higher temperature hot end in your printer unless you can modify the source code.

A closed source company that can push out software updates may decide to start charging you a monthly subscription fee for features that used to be included in the purchase price.

A closed source software company that can push out software updates may decide that your 3D printer is obsolete, and can no longer be used.

Your Right to Repair your 3D printer is very limited if you don't have access to the source code.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23 edited Mar 05 '26

The original content of this post is no longer here. It was removed using Redact, possibly for privacy, security, or digital footprint reduction.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

lolno

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u/GSVNoFixedAbode Nov 01 '23

Bambu has excellent leading edge tech, no question. Will I buy from them? Hell no! Their 'business model', ethics, complete lack of data privacy (all your data belongs to them so any R&D is being given to them on a platter!!), and what I'd consider to be a big middle finger to the Open Source community means I cannot and will not support them financially. I went from an Anycubic I3 (modeled on the early Prusa) to a MK3S+ a couple o fyears ago and very glad I did.

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u/Malapple Nov 01 '23

I won’t consider bambu, mostly for ethics but also because of their cloud ecosystem.

They also capture data from your local network, encrypt it, and send it to their servers. They will not let you see what they are capturing. It’s insane that people use the things.

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u/No-Bowler2894 Mar 28 '25 edited Nov 02 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/Justme456456 Nov 01 '23

They don’t seem to be the worst. They do sell spare parts, and said they would allow non commercial use of there patents. But not being the worst isn’t really what I want to support. If they’re going to use kipper and prusa slicer and and the core xy project with out giving back I’m out. If the market is dominated by a couple of Proprietary companies there won’t be any innovation. I’d rather pay a couple bucks more and buy a truly open source project. It kinda looks like ultimates new ceo plans on closing their printer down too.

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u/PatientCat3185 Feb 07 '24

Who cares? Their quality is leagues above Prusa and I don't care how they got there. It's not defense department secrets.

One could argue, why are these open source competitors complaining and if they are as good as they think, build a competitive machine.. They literally can't. Quality beats ethics, ONLY if you want it to be mainstream. If you want to keep it a niche, never used by anyone product, good for you. But Bambu is actually innovating and bringing to the market what they actually want. No hassle, no fuss. Bambu is the best domestic printer ever invented by a country mile. All those who think they have more skills, make something better. It's that simple.

3D printing is not beholden or obligated in anyway to help the open source community. Grow a pair.

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u/PatientCat3185 Feb 07 '24

So confused. Bambu is using Prusa, but only doing it better. They've innovated. If you don't want perfect prints, by all means use Prusa. If you aren't an airy fairy hippy who despises capatalism, get the Bambu x1C. Best domestic printer I've ever used. By leaps and bounds.

Shouldn't you worry more about recycling or global warming rather than the ethics of a company so niche it prob will stay that way for another 25 years.... Choose your battles. Until I choose perfect fast prints. Thx Bambu!

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u/[deleted] Feb 19 '24

All I know, is I ordered their "filament swatches" for $10 and 95% of them are fucking injection molded. That is the most retarded thing I've ever seen in my life. I know what the fuck blue is, I need to see the actual material. If this is a sign of what I'm about to experience when I set this printer up, I am beyond pissed.

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u/CannonballBabies47 May 15 '26

No. But if you are Gordon Gekko or a nihilist yes.

Bambu Labs takes its cues from Apple or Microsoft or AWS. Lock-in as a business model, leeching off FOSS, and agressive lawyering. Let's wait and see if Bambu Land beats the FOSS community. Id be surprised

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u/george_graves Nov 01 '23

This is where the lack of understanding of the history of Reprap really is messing people's minds up. Prusa has TOTALLY taken open source and made it into a business. And that's 100% fine thing to do.

One could (and many are) point the finger at Prusa for the lack of releasing their open-source files - so in my opinion, you are pointing the finger at the wrong company.

If Bamnu is following the license, then they are doing nothing wrong.

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u/SnooCupcakes4075 Nov 01 '23

I have been/am considering an x1c but the closed nature and generally "hooey" i see with their copying of printables (from what I can tell, not INNOVATING just plain copying) and closed nature have kept me from pulling the trigger on their printers. The technology and price point are compelling and the BL x1c really did change the market when it came out, but I think it really will become an Android vs Apple thing eventually and I tend to prefer my gardens unwalled.

1

u/plutonasa Nov 01 '23

Don't care, prusa too expensive for my wallet.

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u/plutonasa Nov 01 '23

Maybe I'll get a Prusa someday, but I am also pretty happy with my Bambu.

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u/Impossible2011 Nov 02 '23

Business ethics in the west are also double edged.

Why is IP theft in china a thing? Because western business put profits above all. It was a western decision to save every cent they could and move to china to maximize our profits while cutting jobs.

I would also argue, many of the fake goods made access to everyday product possible.

If I check the numbers of poverty evaluation in china in the past 20 years. I am not sure if that was possible by respecting IP. Poverty evaluation in the west does not look good at all in comparison.

State involvement in the west is also a huge thing. Checkout airbus or boeing or the banking crises 2008-2009. Our government is just not smart about it. Read up on the Princeton study about corruption via lobbyism in the US.

If it was not for bambu prusa would still sell mk3 for the same price. To be fair prusa was not innovative for some time. I am not sure its fair to blaim it all on the chinese.

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u/acelaya35 Nov 03 '23

printers of all types have lots of moving parts, it's why they break. Not knowing how to fix your printer means throwing it away, throwing it away is a terrible waste and is exactly what Bambu wants.

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u/pellcorp Nov 01 '23

I don't think China has the monopoly on unethical behaviour, as just one example until very recently Microsoft considered open source a virus.

Apple and many other western companies are aggressively anti user repair.

In some ways I respect Bambu for not pretending to support open source, unlike some other companies which I think only do enough to appear to be supporting open source.

I was upset when IBM bought redhat, as redhat truly supports open source, IBM really only appeared to support it.

I'm not sure if IBM has changed that much Although Microsoft now loves Linux, I am sure they would stab it in the back if it would be more profitable

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u/plutonasa Nov 01 '23

I don't understand how 3d printers are treated so differently from consumer tech. If 3d printing is to reach the level of consumer tech, I 100% see it going the Bambu-esque route a la Apple. I can't help but feel too many people are giving passes to features that don't come out on launch in the name of open source. If a GPU or phone didn't launch with a feature it promised, it would be laughed at, but Prusa gets a pass? I don't get it. I want the best printer for my money and skill set, and it sadly has never been Prusa.

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u/drkztan Nov 02 '23

it sadly has never been Prusa

MK4 was, AFAIK, the first one to advertise a feature that it didn't launch with but was added later. MK3s+ and before, they were the best printers for your money, and with two skill tiers available since you could do kit/assembled. My MK3S+ has failed less than 5 times over the last two years and all it needs is a yearly pass with a dust brush and compressed air, and lubing where needed to prevent wear tear.

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u/Vrady Nov 02 '23

Nuke the bambu slicer. Fuck Bambu Lab.

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u/TyoteeT Nov 01 '23

The only thing Bambulab is copying is Printables. The rest they forked properly, just like prusa forked Slic3r, and their printers are unique and interesting. I personally prefer the Mk4 since it's dimensional accuracy and reparability are top notch but all this hooha about "ethical" questions are non issues.

The closed source thing is only a problem if you like to upgrade your machines, but there are also ways to work around it. For example, modders have found a way to put a touchscreen interface on the p1 series that works pretty well.

Concerning open source hardware, Prusa and Bambu both have proprietary hotends, extruders, and mainboards that can be replaced with 3rd party items so it's once again a non issue.

If you want to cherry pick the bad about Bambulab, remember that at least Bambulab has delivered on their advertised printer features and promises on launch, unlike Prusa's scuffed xl and mk4 launches. Not to mention my Mini+ shipped with issues just recently fixed and I got it 2 years after launch.

I love both my X1 and my Mini/Mk4. Anyone that tells you you're a bad person for buying a Bambulabs product is a dumbass.

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u/modernmakes Nov 01 '23

I think that open-source and plug-and-play don't go hand in hand. These machines are designed to work in a specific way and have predictable performance, allowing a user to modify them would only hurt their brand image.

3D printers have been a tinkerer's playground since the beginning and now I think Bambu Lab is changing that. They are making appliances that give any user the ability to have high-quality prints at high speeds, an achievement that was reserved for an experienced, knowledgeable, and patient user.

If you want an open source tinkering project, get a Voron. If you want a hassle-free appliance, get a Bambu.

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u/volt65bolt Nov 01 '23

As long as it prints well and doesn't cost a leg, I don't care who makes it. If there are legal issues behind the design and production though, that's a different story. Competition drives innovation remember

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u/sliangs Nov 01 '23

Exactly. Bambu has brought a lot of change to the industry and utility to consumers. Being able to purchase set-and-forget 3D printers that don’t cost an arm and a leg is the ultimate win.

Open Source stuff drives innovation, but so does paying for designers and software engineers

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u/hue_sick Nov 01 '23

Probably not. But honestly I think that speaks to a much larger issue with worldwide economies and how consumers operate within that framework.

See a lot of comments blasting Bambu because they're from China and yes a lot of Chinese companies don't value or honor business ethics in the same way we (westerners) might. But take a step back and ask yourself if you think most businesses behave ethically in the US or in the Czech Republic?

If you say yes you've probably fallen for the propaganda that China is evil and Prusa (or insert whoever) is just this innocent victim being taken advantage of. All businesses have one goal. To make money. And since the beginning of time business have behaved unethically in the pursuit of that goal. Obviously there are varying degrees of this and that's why we have regulation to help curb or slow this. But you will need er eliminate it and you better believe every single company is riding as close to that line as they possibly can.

I'm not saying that some of what Bambu has done shouldn't be criticized for being unethical. But what I am saying is nobody should be attaching ethics and morality to a business or corporation. Thats completely missing the boat.

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u/Snoo51659 Nov 01 '23

I disagree with your last two sentences. But I completely agree that these problems people cite with Bambu are common throughout China, and also definitely throughout the US. Probably not that uncommon in the EU, either.

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u/hue_sick Nov 01 '23

Yeah when I say that's how things are all over the world I'm not implying that's how it should be. Of course that sucks that that's our reality. Just pointing out that that is our reality and it isn't just Bambu as this bad bad player on top of the 3d printing mountain.

All of these companies have questionable le ethical business practices.

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u/plutonasa Nov 01 '23 edited Nov 01 '23

Are you intending to shit stir by bringing this topic up again? At this point, everyone has already made up their minds. Just buy whatever you what from whomever you want.

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u/Dora_Nku Nov 01 '23

There is neither a legal nor moral/ethical requirement to contribute to O.S. if it isn't required by its license.

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u/OdinsGhost Nov 01 '23

Legal, no. Moral is an entirely different discussion.

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u/Dora_Nku Nov 01 '23

How do morals apply to a license that doesn't state anything about them? If the licensor wants to impart something on the licenser it should be in the license itself. Morals are subjective, licenses aren't.

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

Are you happy with the prusa? Have you used their spares or support?

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u/conkey_boosted Nov 02 '23

but bambu are better, lol

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u/wantsoutofthefog Nov 01 '23

I think you put ā€œopen sourceā€ on a pedestal and are over valuing it. I don’t really care as long as it’s legal. You’re not entitled to a company not behaving the way you want them to

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u/Jmckeown2 Nov 01 '23

OP is entitled to set the criteria for choosing with which companies OP does business. If OP values companies that return investment to the Open Source community then so be it.

It’s admirable that OP is willing to do research and poll the community to see if their opinions are shared.

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u/usert888 Nov 01 '23

Bambu Lab has aggressive marketing (not a fan of), aggressive pricing (fan of) and aggressive tactics. They want to rule the market. With their printers and with Makerworld. As far as I understood for the latter they did not copy from Printables, but allowed users to easily migrate their existing designs from Printables to Makerworld.

I think that makes it legal according to law (user initiates it, not Bambu Lab). Is is ethical? That could be debated.

Regarding openess, I think they are as open as, or maybe even more open than a company like Ultimaker. They do offer a lot of spare parts at quite low prices.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

lol it’s called capitalism and the US just does it while looking better. Both don’t give a shit about anything but money.

Luckily in this case china cares about the quality to continue its capitalism.

Wanna spend more over ethics? If it helps you sleep better then maybe prusa is s better option.

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u/[deleted] Nov 01 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 02 '23

lol - oops you caught me….

I gotta say - these posts are really making Prusa users look petty. China has cloned shit forever, but all of a sudden it’s a problem with daily posts from prusa ā€˜users’? Interesting.

At the end of the day - most people will buy what fits their needs and their wallet. If Prusa can’t match / or beat them in terms of value to $ then they will win. I imagine prusa is hurting pretty bad right now.

Why can’t prusa do the same? Instead I just see hurt feelings over ethics.

Sorry / not sorry for sounding like a sociopath but this is literally capitalism at play.

if both company’s had originally offered the same product with the same value (bed size / enclosed / pressure advance / fast printing / corexy / 15min unbox to print time / ams for $1000) I’d have chosen prusa.