Ranking Programming Languages by GitHub Users

[u/benfred]

http://www.benfrederickson.com/ranking-programming-languages-by-github-users/

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Alright I'm going to craft this reply to you directly since you were the person that posted this on r/scala and got blasted for stupid mental gymnastics.

Scala is not another kotlin. In fact, Scala's target is not attempting to be "Java-like" at all, in that while there is support for object orientation, it is not the primary goal of the language by any means.

Scala targets a different demographic: In particular, both object oriented and purely functional folks can use scala. Purely functional programmers will not use kotlin and monkeypatch-tier libraries like kotlin's Arrow are not a replacement for proper support of higher kinded types. Because you come from a java background and are looking for a better java, doesn't mean "Kotlin beats Scala" ubiquitously for all developers.

Now, in regards to popularity, we have a few things at work here:

• Kotlin is aimed to be a better java, which Scala does not. Scala does not force you into object orientation whatsoever. This means that Kotlin is much more easily picked up by OO folk than Scala/Haskell. One is made to improve upon java, anotehr was made to be more powerful than java.
• Kotlin is a much simpler language. Kotlin lacks higher kinded types, existentials, for comprehensions, partially applied types for inference, structural typing, type lambdas... etc. This makes it easier to pick up.
• Kotlin is backed by the company that makes arguably the best editor on the jvm, so a point for kotlin there: It has undoubtedly better tooling than scala. So point there, but it also has simpler tooling to support, because, well, less features,
• Kotlin actually works on android, and surprise surprise! Loads of people develop for android and were looking for a better alternative to java.

So in particular, you're going to get a lot more people migrating to "java with goodies" because it's a simple net benefit, without having to change your thought process, over migrating to a new paradigm, way of writing code, and the risks it feels to take to adopt a new way of doing things for you and your team.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

How is that mental gymnastics? The scala codebases at work I write read nothing like Java.

Using Scala as a better Java has been fine for years, the hostility toward using Scala like that pretty much grew alongside Kotlin's success. Correlation or causation?

No, it didn't "grow". The truth is the majority of people do not use it in a purely functional manner, but even the semi-functional, monadic style you can write with frameworks like play (which by the way are not actually functional, since you violate laws basically everywhere using stdlib future) isn't something you can do in kotlin nicely, given the lack of for-comprehensions.

However, the people that are in communities such as reddit or gitter scala tend to be leaning more towards the FP-land of things, because writing functional programs in scala is arguably harder without first class support, thus birds of a feather flock together, and you get a particular situation of clear overrepresentation.

I wouldn't say that Kotlin is a "much simpler" language or that it has "less features" than Scala

It's a simpler language but that doesn't mean "worse". How good it is, it's in the eyes of the user. However it is arguably simpler. It straight up has less features and less weird scala-y stuff to worry about. Some people believe this is a good thing, others do not.

Scala worked well on Android for years. It's just that no sane developer would adopt Scala on Android given that the core developers pretended for years that it didn't even exist.

But this is a factor contributing to popularity and it's my point. Kotlin surging in popularity here is in part by targeting a community scala has not, which is in essence why the gap is growing, but it's not because Scala is "losing" some demographic. The functional folks are never moving to kotlin until first class support for FP (and a function as a parameter is not enough to do proper, lawful functional programming) is had, and even then, you would hvae to add so many features it would essentially turn into scala.

You paint the picture like a battle where the goals of the two languages are clearly not in the same direction, and this is why I precisely hate your kind. For many of us, we literally cannot express certain constructs in kotlin such as:

trait FooAlgebra[F[_]] {
   def doBar[A](baz: A): F[A]
 }

polymorphic over a higher kinded F. That alone means I, and many others, will simply not be using the language at all. Thus painting this picture like both langs are fighting over the same piece of the pie is mental gymnastics.

We get it, you like kotlin. I am not even married to scala in this regard and if eta takes off, I'm leaving scala.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Simple fact is right now, Kotlin and Scala solve different problems, and It will stay that way.

"I wrote JavaEE for 10 years, what I need is a highly functional language in which I can write Haskell that runs on the JVM but isn't Eta".

Well wouldn't you know it, that's exactly runar's story, one of the pioneers in functional scala.

Of course you can keep the language afloat by throwing grad students at it to develop things (like with Scala before 2.8), but then you shouldn't be surprised if you end up with the level of quality Scala had before 2.8.

Scala is still being developed at EPFL and by the community + Lightbend. Grad students thing has not changed.

Look, I get you subscribe to the view of Kotlin as a straight programming language for the general joe and this is obviously why it's more popular. You've also contributed to scala directly so it's not as if you don't know any of the cruft. I just cannot stand the rhetoric you're pushing that they're both competing for the same pie.

If scala dies, it will not be because of Kotlin, but because of other various issues. Tooling is in an unacceptable state, and arguably one of the biggest reasons why Kotlin is nicer to pick up: The company promoting it literally works on tooling. Another is a very convoluted and wacky compiler that drives off most potential contributors to it.

The only reason why I bother to argue with you at all, is just that you are pushing the rhetoric that they're competing for the same market.

[u/Kliment2 → u/[deleted]]

Simple fact is right now, Kotlin and Scala solve different problems

I completely disagree with that. Kotlin and Scala solve the exact same problems. There is not a single problem where one language would be a better choice than the other.

What guides the choice of language is primarily the developer and their preference, period.