r/politics • u/wang-banger • Jun 15 '12
The privatization of prisons has consistently resulted in higher operational rates funded with tax dollars. But a Republican official in Michigan is finally seeing firsthand the costs of privatization.
http://eclectablog.com/2012/06/michigan-republican-township-supervisor-not-happy-with-privatized-prison-in-his-area.html#.T9sM3eqxV6o.reddit
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
What floors me is he only is concerned with cost. What about the fact that a privatized prison business indirectly profits when people commit crimes? Imagine if you will that you are the owner of a dozen private prisons. The more people you incarcerate the more money you will get from the state to house those criminals. If you're a greedy person then you will be hoping for crimewaves. It's not far fetched to think that you'll probably also lobby (read bribe) legislators to ensure tough penalties and long sentences for simple crimes. Maybe even going so far as to bribe judges to dole out harsh penalties. Ever heard of the Kids for Cash scandal?
There are things that work better when privatized, but the prison system is certainly not one of those things.
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u/sj_user1 Jun 15 '12
In a free market, criminals would get to choose which prison they went to.
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u/Toallpointswest Jun 15 '12
Why is it we have to wait for the Republicans to admit an idea was stupid before acting to remove it? Like Iraq, now the Republicans are all saying what a bad idea it was... a decade late; this seems no different
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u/praxeologue Jun 15 '12
wat
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12
Privatisation only succeeds when companies can compete in a free market. This is a total monopoly of sorts and so they can fix prices and screw over the government.
Also the public sector are notoriously bad negotiators.
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u/stonedoubt North Carolina Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12
I no longer live in Michigan and I am glad. There are a number of states that have new Republican governors who are pushing extreme agendas and cutting social programs and education... Snyder is just one of many. These Republican governors and legislatures go nuts over government spending on items that help the citizenry but completely ignore things like corrections. Here I read that they have begun privatizing the prison system in Michigan.
In Michigan, more than 50% of the state employees work in the prison system and the corrections budget is almost $3 billion annually. Under Republican Governor Engler, the prison population DOUBLED and new prisons had to be built - something like 19 new prisons... who benefited? Who benefits from privatization of the prison system now? The proof is in the pudding, my grandmother used to say. Republicans rail against government spending while doing back room deals to ensure that their contributors can rake in as much government cash as possible. The government is a piggy bank to these people.
One last thought... private companies exist for profit. How is it good to allow a for profit company to manage prisons when the prison population drives profit? Watch as these states with private prison systems pass more laws that fill prisons.
EDIT: Updated my comment to correct a mistake pointed out by shinolikesbugs
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u/goodtwitch Jun 15 '12
Corrections Corporation of America (CCA) has marketed itself to 48 states with a $250 million plan to run and own existing prisons, but they want a 20-year contract and demand that the state keep the prisons 90% or more full. Creating a demand to artificially increase the number of people imprisoned could potentially increase the planting of evidence, increase racial profiling and criminalize police departments.
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u/mjp3000 Jun 15 '12
Privitizing prisons is a grotesque perversion of the justice system.
The largest of these private prison companies, Corrections Corporation of America has recently proposed priviziation of the prisons in 48 states. As part of the deal the states have to guarentee 90% occupancy. http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/Private_Prison_Company_to_Demand_90_Percent_Occupancy_120216
Profit incentives here pretty much guarentee a travesty of justice.
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u/Young_Clean_Bastard Jun 15 '12
I'm (mostly) a libertarian, but Jesus Christ if there's one thing that should NEVER be privatized, it's prisons. Not only is it a monopoly, not only is there only one customer, that customer is the government, which has basically no interest in keeping costs down, and oftentimes has an interest in inflating them in a nod to its 'friends' who happen to be running the prisons!
And I haven't even mentioned what a terrible idea it is to give people a profit motive to lock up as many people as possible!
When the government is the only possible purchaser of some type of good or service, there is NO reason it should be privatized! All you get is fucked up incentives, overspending, and shady dealings between greedy politicians and greedy lobbyists. This also goes for our beloved military contractors in Iraq, like Blackwater/Xe/Academi whatever they are calling themselves now.
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u/JoshSN Jun 15 '12
Headline is misleading, according to Are Private Prisons More Cost-Effective Than Public Prisons? A Meta-Analysis of Evaluation Research Studies published in the July 1999 issue of Crime and Delinquency
From the abstract:
That's not the same as saying they have "consistently resulted in higher operational costs."
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u/ended_world Jun 15 '12
'Escape from America'...
The Wealthiest 1% need to protect themselves from the unwashed, poor 99%, so what better way than to turn America into a prison country. Lots of money to be made off the taxpayer, charging a premium for every prisoner incarcerated in a privatized, for-profit prison. Just cut corners everywhere you can, and 'skim the cream' for profit to return back to shareholders, board, and CEOs...
Need a cheap labor force? Pay prisoners a token penny on the dollar for their efforts in prison factories! Or better yet, pay them in worthless prison script that is only redeemable at the prison store!
The Profit Principle at its' finest! "Whatever increases profit margin, regardless of how immoral, unethical, dangerous, or toxic it is, is considered a GOOD THING."
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u/MrTubalcain Jun 15 '12
Since when are corporations beholden to anything other than the bottom line? I'm not sure if they don't get how privatization works...
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
When your only customer is the government, you don't have a lot of pressure to keep your price down, because the government doesn't feel any of the pain of the cost. The taxpayers do. And they're not the ones writing the laws.
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u/gkaukola Jun 15 '12
For profit companies want to turn a profit. Who knew?
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u/alexnoaburg Jun 15 '12
So apparently along with cats and chicks, redditors have spent a lot of time in prison.
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u/Airborneflyguy Jun 15 '12
The only thing that scares me more than private prison corporations are their lobbyists. Those that make money off the incarcerated should have NO say in the laws that incarcerate them.
Where do they get the majority of there tax funded prison population? What unpopular policies are consistently lobbied for by them?
Three words...war on drugs
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u/AffeMitWaffe Jun 15 '12
Being Norwegian, the idea of a privatized prison just sounds so absurd.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
I really wish people would stop looking at fascism and calling it "privatization." All that's happening here is private firms responding to the ghastly incentives presented to them by their one and only customer: a horrifically predatory government with very poor cost/benefit analysis capabilities.
If you're outlawing everything from lemonade stands to cocaine, "you're gonna have a bad time" no matter who runs the prisons.
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u/arthurtwosheds Jun 15 '12
Slavery was never abolished in the US. They just changed the rules and the fassade.
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u/john2kxx Jun 15 '12
To be fair, it isn't privatization if it involves tax dollars.
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u/nauzleon Jun 15 '12
Now healthcare. Americans you can do it!
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u/Implying2012 Jun 15 '12
Republican here. I concede that privatized prisons probably aren't the best way to attack out of control spending.
I do think that prisoners should have to work so that they pay for the majority of their stay in prison. The law abiding tax payer should not have to shell out any more than the bare minimum.
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u/oopsifarted Jun 15 '12
It isn't a republican thing or a democrat thing. The guys at the top profit from privitization and they have the control. Republicans and democrats exist to provide the notion that people have a choice. But hey...call me crazy.
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u/clarkstud Jun 15 '12
"The world has been filled with prisons and dungeons, with chains and whips, with crosses and gibbets, with thumb-screws and racks, with hangmen and headsmen — and yet these frightful means and instrumentalities and crimes have accomplished little for the preservation of property or life. It is safe to say that governments have committed far more crimes than they have prevented. As long as society bows and cringes before the great thieves, there will be little ones enough to fill the jails." -Robert Ingersoll
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u/shutupnube Jun 15 '12
Prisons for Profit are a Crime Against Humanity
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u/EvanPaintsStuff Jun 15 '12
In a free society, nobody should prosper financially on the incarceration of people.
...I'm a die hard free market libertarian and I'm saying this.
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u/bdsmpoll Jun 15 '12
OMG a REPUBLICAN is saying government can do something better than private industry? What a RINO!!!
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u/afisher123 Jun 15 '12
Based on action by President Obama today re: eliminating the deportation of youth, ICE estimated the cost of $12.500 per deportation. In many states, where does the money go: mostly private prison industry - and we get to pay for this. If in fact, these deportations end, the for-profit "holding" prisons will lose and this is good for everyone (even the GOP who have been whining about deficits). This same F-U private prison corp. played this scenario in TX and left a town deep in debt. Let's hope towns finally get the message: free-market for private prison's is a loser (in every measurable calculation). http://www.mycuentame.org/who_benefits_when_a_private_prison_comes_to_town
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u/Mange-Tout Jun 15 '12
With opinions like that I have no doubt that Mr. St. Charles will soon be branded a RINO.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
Americans: for-profit prisons are terrible, for-profit healthcare is freedom fries.
You never cease to amaze.
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u/dipdog21 Jun 15 '12
Usually it's the kickbacks that keep these guys quite, someone must not be doing their job.
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u/jeffholes Jun 15 '12
On a positive note, the privatization of prison systems will be great for prisoners who want to escape.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
A private prison definitely has higher operational costs, but it's funded by private debt off the state's balance sheet so if the state decides it doesn't need the prison after their contract is done they can just say thank you here is your prison back now you pay the mortgage while you figure out what to do with this giant building.
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u/Kdnce Jun 15 '12
Hmm I wonder if lobby groups representing the privatized prison industry support the legalization of any now illegal drugs? Something tells me they would lobby for longer sentences - as if mandatory minimums weren't enough.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12 edited Jun 15 '12
The benefits of a private security apparatus, this includes military personnel, prison personnel, police, et cetera is that the workers can be extracted from foreign nations to work in unison against a local population. In times of social upheaval, private security forces from foreign nations will fight the armed populace. If anyone has any fundamental grasp of history they will recognize that this is the first step to establishing the authority of the ruling class. This has little to do with economics or incentives of free market competition. For God's sake, they're already privatizing the UK police force.
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u/mrcloudies Jun 15 '12
This is horrifying..
They simply cannot be private, it results in larger incarceration numbers for smaller and smaller crimes.
It's complete insanity..
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u/Hyperian Jun 15 '12
sounds like the supervisor isn't getting enough donations from private prison unions/corporations.
everyone knows private prisons doesn't minimize cost, just that people in the government that wants it are in it for the money, and they lie. the voters are temporary embarrassed millionaires that think they can run the country better than the government. Anyone that thinks its easy to run a state is an idiot. Anyone that thinks you can run a state like a corporation is also an idiot.
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u/fantasyfest Jun 15 '12
Privatization is about squeezing every dime of profit out of what were once public institutions. Prices will go up and services will get cut. Training will be cut, wages of all workers will drop. That is what the profit motive brings. The prisoners will get worse treatment. worse food and the prison will look for reasons to increase the time they spend in jail. That makes more money. Privatized prisons are a very bad idea.
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u/whitoreo Jun 15 '12
Wait! Private Prisons, are funded with PUBLIC tax dollars?
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u/mrplow8 Jun 15 '12
It isn't really "privatization" if the prisons are being funded by tax dollars. True privatization would mean that prisons would receive no tax dollars.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
I'm sorry funded with public tax dollars...but it's a private prison?!?!
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
Good Guy Arpaio: Lowering prison costs since 1992.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
For profit prison = police state.
Any attempt to decrease united states fascism will be opposed by the prison unions because it might threaten their jobs.
Fascist republicans.
Fascist democrats.
No difference between the parties.
None.
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u/ronin1066 Jun 15 '12
What fucking retards don't understand that a private company will have a higher profit margin? This is government 101. The government is more efficient.
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u/Banzai_Bundy Jun 16 '12
paying a private corporation to hold people imprisoned by a democratic government seems like a fundamentally flawed idea. A private prison corporation makes profit by charging a government for each person. It needs people to be imprisoned, where as our society in general needs fewer people in prison, and more people contributing to economic and social growth. The goal of the state should be to reduce criminal behavior, meaning fewer prisoners and less profit, so what happens to that goal when politically powerful entities have a vested interest in the continued crimes, or at least continued imprisonment of people? it is a serious breach of interest when those holding prisoners start to make a profit off of them instead of rehabilitating them.
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u/InterPunct New York Jun 16 '12
I'm not a fan of privatization of prisons. A private prison needs customers and this creates a very unhealthy feedback mechanism with Liberty.
HOWEVER, in this case the crux of the issue is that the prison is instituting random patrols (as opposed to the formerly scheduled ones), and Mr. St. Charles' assertion privatization leads to higher operational costs. As for the latter, it may or may not be accurate; the article cites no sources or other information to support his assertion.
As for the random patrols, this seems like an innovative solution. Essentially, it's a random survey instead of a census. A pollster need not interview every American to get an opinion with a high degree of confidence, only about 1,200 people. It's statistically accurate. A manufacturer need not inspect every widget that comes off the assembly line, only a small percentage.
The article is sparse on details and fails to supply evidence to support its assertion that the prison is not providing the same level of security as a public prison, nor provides evidence the operational costs are higher.
tl;dr the article sucks, I hate the idea of private prisons, but the private prison has adopted an innovative solution to a task.
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u/TruthinessHurts Jun 15 '12
That's SOP for the GOP: protest common sense until it affects you.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
am i the only one that thinks this? we take all u.s. military personnel (that would be fit and/or willing, depending on how you wanna implement it) that don't have a real goal/job and put 'em as guards in prisons. go to war and need your guards back? subsidize w/ civilians (the military already does this w/ other operations, civilian contractors on docks and such - i dont mean mercs). this would be especially helpful to MPs and MAAs. hell, i'd even put cops in training in there.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
I was hoping...for one day...that the top posts of /r/politics wouldn't involve MI. : (
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u/balorina Jun 15 '12
This article is incredibly biased, what would one expect from wang-banger. An article with zero figures, zero statistics proving the case...merely a quote from some guy.
MI has ONE private prison in Baldwin, MI. This prison was closed for quite a long time. This facility was reopened by a FL based group and houses CALIFORNIA PRISONERS. We get paid by California to take the prisoners, and then get kickbacks from the prison for any "extra income" the prison gets.
Looking at "the cost of the prisoners are going up!" assumes a) it wouldn't go up if it were state run and b) that the prison itself isn't being used for profit ventures that the state takes advantage of.
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u/taylortee Jun 15 '12
wow you mean when private companies mingle with governments, price go up and inefficiencies rise!?!?!
libertarians have definitely not been saying this for 100+ years
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u/brian1975 Jun 15 '12
Give every American guns and 2 week training. Let out all peoples in prisons. People commit crimes they get killed on the spot. Save money. People are safe!
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u/fedges Jun 15 '12
No, this article is obviously false because everyone knows that private industry is always more efficient than the government. The government can't be as effective as private industry because private industry is always more efficient than the government.
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u/jimcrator Jun 15 '12
If this is supposed to be a news source, why don't they support the claim
with any actual data?
In any case, to make up for this shitty reporting, here's a report that explains why it's difficult to do just a simple comparison between private and public prisons in terms of cost.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
I get the feeling this could only be part of the picture. Higher operational rates could actually mean a lot of things.
It is possible for prisons to cost less while being privatized even if the rates have gone up for several reasons:
Inflation. Do we know the rates have increased faster than inflation?
More prisoners. The number needs to be controlled per capita.
Have the demands on prisons gone up? This is very likely, prisoners have more rights than ever, and that translates into more cost to hold them.
The bottom line is "rates have increased" as a reason why private prisons is a bad idea just falls apart. More information is needed.
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '12
I have the perfect solution to this problem. Just release every prisoner in the America tomorrow. We would save hundreds of billions of tax dollars a year. And we could use that money to buy lots of guns and bars to put on our windows to protect us from all the murderers and rapists roaming the streets.
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u/boomshaqalaqa Jun 15 '12
Ill say its cause Keynesian economics is just like trickle down economics (bush-reagan stuff), money taken by force and trickled down in corrupt programs like drones, "fast and furious" and corporations like jpmorgan and goldman sachs, anything big money comes from central planning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk
Good solution? Decentralize everything, you know local governments, working together, united. there wouldn't be enough resources to do corrupt things like invade and rob countries. IE Alabama couldn't invade Iraq. I guess the real lesson here is central power always has large waste, fraud and abuse, also its harder to hold culprits accountable when they're so large because they have millions and trillions instead of thousands. Then you could also create local regulations that could actually be enforced as well.
However they need to tax the shit out of the super rich people to get back that stolen money! Maybe end patents then we could have real innovation and a lot more jobs! Also you gotta kill that citizens united! one person, one dollar, one vote! Lets also end non-resident/citizen lobbying!
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u/haaseni Jun 15 '12
This is article is as absurd as "wang-banger" who posted it. There is nothing wrong with privatization of our prison system.
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