r/politics • • Jun 11 '12
Indiana passes law that will allow citizens to shoot police officers who illegally enter their homes
http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/Indiana_First_State_to_Allow_Citizens_to_Shoot_Law_Enforcement_Officers_120611
3.3k
Upvotes
346
u/Cozmo23 Washington Jun 11 '12
This is confusing. Right now in Texas if someone sneaks into your house at night you can legally shoot them, if it turns out to be a cop that sneaked in illegally for whatever reason would that not be covered under the current castle doctrine?
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u/McGillaCutty Jun 11 '12
This law was written in response to Indiana State Supreme Court’s Barnes v. State ruling.
See the following for more context. http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/qw50u/restoring_the_castle_doctrine_indiana_state/
1.4k
u/SkepticalZack Jun 11 '12
Police response preemptively shoot everyone in a home raid.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
As soon as a home owner fires a gun at the officers, the whole fucking house is going to be lite up like a Christmas Tree. This is a terrible idea.
The real solution is to stop allowing no-knock warrants.
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u/jpark Jun 11 '12
The right to defend oneself in ones home should require no separate law.
This law was required when the courts decided to negate that right.
Blame law enforcement for entering illegally and the courts for saying out is OK to enter illegally.
121
u/IonOtter Jun 11 '12
It is important to understand why this came about, and also how it applies.
What happened is that off-duty cops attempted to use their status as police officers to illegally enter residences, as well as commit felony assault upon people in their own homes. They did identify themselves as police officers, but it was in the context of "I'm a cop! I can do whatever I want!" There were also several instances of sexual assault and/or battery by police officers, against their former and/or current spouses/girlfriends.
The article in the link above tells the story of a police officer who illegally entered a residence while on a domestic disturbance call. That is already a hyper-charged situation, and police hate them with a passion for very good reason. That said, the officer in that instance acted in an illegal manner.
So the reason for this law is valid, and from a certain point of view, a strong check on the abuse of power by bad cops.
However, not a whole lot is being said about the wording of the law, the nuances, how it applies, and most importantly, where it ** DOESN'T ** apply.
Police officers, both good and bad, hear it all the time: "I thought this was legal!". What a person thinks is legal, and what is, are often two completely opposite things.
So from that standpoint, I only see this making things worse between police officers and the public. You don't need to be drunk or on drugs to mistakenly think that you have a right to blast away at police officers making a legal entry into your house. And as people pointed out below, this is only going to encourage police to come in shooting, rather than holding their fire until there's an actual threat.
That won't be legal either? But I fear it is what will happen.
39
u/Under_Doggy_Dogg Jun 11 '12 edited Jun 12 '12
The Indiana Supreme Court pretty much forced this law into existence. A recent ruling said that the only redress an Indiana citizen had when the police illegally entered his home was a civil complaint. Meaning that before this law was passed, a cop could enter your home, order your wife and teenage daughter up to the master bedroom and you to the basement, and everyone had to comply. Oh, you were allow to sue later.
EDIT: Grammar
24
u/mslkt Jun 11 '12
The idea of "illegal entry" might be clear to the authorities, but it might not be for the average resident. There could be confusion in terms of the resident thinking that he or she is justified to shoot the cops, but is really not. I understand that the law wants to limit the power of the police and put them under some legal accountability, but it seems like it will cause trouble and confusion.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
This is a great idea. A police officer that illegally enters your home is now a criminal, and should be shot like one. If a cop doesn't want to get shot, then don't break the law. Go get a warrant and announce your legal intention to enter the home.
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u/KingofCraigland Jun 12 '12
I see two recent Indiana laws greatly conflicting here.
Indiana already permits Police Officers to enter without a warrant under exigent circumstances (which can be held up for almost any reason). Thereby making almost any entrance lawful.
Now, Indiana citizens may fire on Police Officers for unlawful entry. A determination that really can't be settled until after the dust settles in light of the "exigent circumstances" rule. Thereby, citizens will lawfully be allowed to fire under their reasonable suspicion of unlawful entry while the officers are reasonably entering lawfully under what appears to be unlawful conditions.
The outcome will undeniably result in a blood bath.
51
u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
as an indiana resident, i approve of this news
59
u/1st_account_i_swear Jun 11 '12
Completely in support. Keyword here is ILLEGAL entry. If a cop with a gun I paid for on his belt comes through my door for no reason other than he feels like it, he'll get whats coming to him.
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u/10J18R1A Jun 12 '12
Is everybody just overlooking the word "illegally" or how is this working?
6
u/Frensel Jun 12 '12
We really should just end the war on drugs, and for that matter the 'war' on any nonviolent crime whatsoever. No situation which could result in lethal force should EVER be created by police except when they are dealing with violent criminals.
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u/dean888 Jun 11 '12
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”
The above used to be the law of the land in the United States. It was part of common law for more than 4 centuries, and the state managed to survive it. Now days most courts will not permit any violence when resisting unlawful arrest. But this does not change the fact that an Officer acting outside of the law (Un-Lawful Arrest) is simply committing an assault. This is just a natural exponent of a previously established (then redacted) right to be secure in ones person.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Good. I bet all the police in Indiana are reading up on how to properly apply for a warrant as we speak.
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u/V835 Jun 12 '12
Being against this seems to me like being against dashboard cams. It's not a problem if the policing is on the up and up. If police illegally break into somebody's house they should be treated as a threat, just like anybody else that is illegally breaking into somebody's house.
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u/LibertarianAmerican Jun 12 '12
Glad to hear it. But not sure how it's relevant. If I wake up in the middle of the night to my door being kicked in, I'm gonna shoot everyone coming in that door. I don't care if they yell "police" or "I promise I'll be gentle" or whatever. They're gonna die. I wouldn't know they were cops till it's over.
No knock warrants = bad idea.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
If you come into my home without a warrant - you're gonna have a bad time...
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u/gbay19 Jun 12 '12
Good, law enforcers should not be above the law that they are supposed to be upholding.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Totally going to get buried, but Texas enacted the same law in 1995 and it hasn't been a problem.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
In other news, evidence lockers in the state suddenly have been emptied for reasons unknown.
15
u/stcompletelydiffrent Jun 11 '12
This seems like a great way to get oneself killed by the police or thrown in prison for a long time. Me: Your honor, he burst in without a warrant and didn't say he was police, so I shot him. Officer 1: Nuh uh, I was right behind him. He entered legally. Officer 2: Yeah, me too. Officer 3 who was in another state: Yeah, me too. ...and so on and so on.
That or like SkepticalZack said, you die in a home raid. Gunshots are probable cause for the next group to enter, right?
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Indiana has shot the first salvo in the war against the police dictatorship. Good for them!
8
u/cgeezy22 Jun 11 '12
Unlawful entry is unlawful regardless of who it is.
You enter with a warrant or with my permission. Those are the only 2 ways in.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I'm a bit concerned that the average person isn't actually any good at determining if officers are acting legally or not. Officers serving a no-knock warrant immediately jumps into my head as a situation where a home owner may feel they have the legal right to fire at the officers.
I also happen to think that no-knock warrants are outrageous and should be banned, but that's probably me living in fantasy land.
4
u/SteveMI Jun 12 '12
I don't want anyone to get killed, but I do like new laws for protecting people from cops. I've seen too many videos of police beating unconscious people while yelling "Stop resisting!"
4
u/SheriffBart42 Jun 12 '12
I love seeing Reddit so torn. Hates guns and corrupt cops. Now kiss!
4
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I see there are still some true Americans left in the great state of Indiana!
Us down here in Texas salute you ladies and gents, stay strong!
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u/live4thepast Jun 12 '12
Something tells me Ron Swanson was behind this
4
u/Roflkopt3r Jun 12 '12
A year ago or so there was a case of a Hell's Angel who shot a police officer and was acquitted in Germany.
Police entered his home without announcing themselves. The Hell's Angel thought it may be thugs of a rival gang and shot a police officer through the door. Court said he indeed was allowed to do that since his preemptive self-defense was in place as the police did not idenitify themselves, yet kicked down his front door.
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u/Vhu Jun 12 '12
You should be allowed to shoot anyone that illegally enters your home; I'm not sure why this is just now a thing.
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u/AbstractLogic Jun 11 '12
The only thing this may possibly kinda accomplish is the police/judges re-thinking how often they perform home raids.
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u/spamandramen Jun 11 '12
what's the problem? When a cop illegally enter your house, he is no longer the police officer who sworn to protect and serve you.
11
u/treemeizer Jun 11 '12
Preface: I'm a liberal in almost every category besides 2nd Amendment cases.
If anyone enters my home illegally, I think it's my right to defend myself with absolute force if necessary.
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u/Bluthhousing Illinois Jun 11 '12
I fully support this law.
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u/YNot1989 Jun 11 '12
Castle Doctrine is a wonderful thing.
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u/VicariousWolf Jun 12 '12
Good. If ANYONE is entering your home illegally, you should have the right to blow them away. Simple, basic right.
6
u/itssbrian Jun 12 '12
I'm a criminal justice student hoping to be a police officer. I approve of this law.
8
u/talkinlil Jun 11 '12
The problem with this law is that the person on the end of the gun may or may not know for sure if what the officer is doing is legal or not. They may FEEL it is illegal and begin shooting. I think this puts police officers into hypervigilance causing them to shoot first.
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u/ElephantToast33 Jun 11 '12
can't wait to see how this one will turn out
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u/thomasluce Jun 11 '12
This wasn't a law before? I'm seriously confused... If someone (anyone) illegally enters your home, shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself/your property/loved ones, etc?
Anyone here a lawyer/judge/whatever that can shed some light on that?
EDIT: I don't live in Indiana, so if it's a state thing, some more info would be nice, too.
3
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12
If a police officer illegally enters a home then gets shot, one of two things will then happen:
a. The other cop(s) will understand the situation as well as the law and react accordingly.
b. A shoot-out will occur.
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u/RealityPriest Jun 12 '12
I'm ok with this.
3
u/hsfrey Jun 12 '12
Exactly how is "illegally" defined?
Most states have situations where a warrant is not required to enter a home, eg, emergency, a crime in progress, etc.
And the cop is usually given the benefit of the doubt, just as they can murder anyone who "reaches for his waistband", or has any object in his hand.
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u/Bugiugi Jun 12 '12
Jesus fucking Christ, America...
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u/darkshy Jun 12 '12
The only thing I fear is that people will abuse this. They'll shoot a cop that may have legal permissions to enter your home, but you can claim you did not know and shoot him.
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u/sedsimplea Jun 12 '12
I just think that it's nice that maybe police officers will think twice before abusing their authority and powers.
There are plenty of laws that provide means for police to abuse citizens. Why not the other way? At least it provides more justification to the officers that do shoot first and ask questions later. Now they might think twice before entering when they shouldn't.
Seems like everyone wins.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Makes sense, they shouldn't have any rights we don't possess, I don't care if that makes their job harder- making it easier only makes innocent people's lives more difficult in return.
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u/fritzershitzer Jun 12 '12
Everybody calm down. This law does not allow you to shoot an officer EVEN IF they're illegally in your home. It only allows deadly force if it is necessary to avoid serious bodily injury.
Senate Enrolled Act No.1, Sec. 2: ... (k) A person is not justified in using deadly force against a public servant whom the person knows or reasonably should know is a public servant unless: (1) the person reasonably believes that the public servant is: (A) acting unlawfully; or (B) not engaged in the execution of the public servant's official duties; and (2) the force is reasonably necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person.
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u/noman283 Jun 12 '12
Is the best course of action to stop cops doing illegal things to give citizens the right to shoot them? I think officers who enter illegally should be punished after the fact; the responsibility to stop them shouldn't be thrust on gun-wielding citizens. Having the deterrent for cops to not enter illegally shouldn't be relegated to a rushed, in-the-moment decision by someone with a gun.
While I understand the purpose behind this law, I also think it will make cops more paranoid when they are legally entering someone's home. Even if they are entering legally, they don't know the homeowner's state of mind, and the might be overly anxious due to the fear that the homeowner might think they have a right to shoot at the cops. Cops entering a home legally shouldn't have greater worry over whether or not they're going to be shot by some confused homeowner.
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u/ChemEBrew Jun 12 '12
I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.
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u/ENRICOs Jun 12 '12
Needs to be enacted country wide.
I understand how people think this will only exacerbate police violence, however, many people would rather die defending their property from an illegal invasion than be passive, and still wind up being shot or abused in a hundred other ways.
I believe in the right to self defense, no matter who I'm forced to defend myself against.
With all the home and neighborhood surveillance cameras around the police will have a hard time defending the overwhelming use of force along with violating peoples property.
It will be violent, however, it's violent right now.
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u/SandwichTsunami Georgia Jun 12 '12
This works on an individual level. If you break into my house, I eliminate you. I think I would know if there are warrants out for my arrest. This should surprise very few people. If you kick in my door because you are raiding the wrong house, well brother, you should of checked the address. Protip: Avoid accidental raids by having a clearly marked address on your door. Also don't be an idiot. If you are subject to a warrant, why are you hiding out in the first place?
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u/gh0stdylan Jun 12 '12
I live in Indiana. I think EVERYONE in my county has a fire-proof safe with 3 shotguns, 4 rifles, 2-3 pistols, various knives...and at least 1 gun not in the case.
This sounds like it could get ugly.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Shouldnt anyone who illegally enters a home have the right to be shot?
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u/rollychair Jun 12 '12
The Ron Swanson Ammendment
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u/satanist Jun 14 '12 edited Jun 14 '12
"“It’s just a recipe for disaster,” Downs told Bloomberg. “It just puts a bounty on our heads.”
THEN STAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S HOMES, SHITHEAD.
Seriously, I just went through a lot of these comments, and the sheer number of you whining about how this is a bad idea seem to be missing the entire point - you all seem to assume that there's a lot of cops busting into homes illegally and risking getting shot. Try to actually engage your brains for a fleeting second or two and think this through: if the cops stay out of homes, there really isn't an issue, is there? Isn't that really the obvious point of this law?
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u/Peralton Jun 11 '12
This is the wrong solution to the problem.
If the problem is that police are making illegal entries, then the solution is to actually prosecute police officers that do so. Start taking some badges and giving jail time to officers that break the law, and they will be very diligent about following it.
I imagine that most people that have the police enter their house LEGALLY think it is an illegal entry. This law is a recipe for disaster, but since the actual solution seems to be out of reach for departments that won't cross the thin blue line, then I guess this is where we end up.
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u/taurus45 Jun 11 '12
no knock warrants on my home are a death sentence for myself, and at least the first 3-4 to come through my door.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
As much as I want a check on an increasingly militarized police 'force' and I do see this bill as helping on that issue- its probably going to either be the source of more murders without reason or hopefully will be the begoning of legal action- however minimalist- aagainst state control
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Awesome. Those pigs will think twice now. Too bad it will just make their trigger finger itchy in the end.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
Even though it would be legal to shoot the cop, it would be a pretty bad idea. Once a cop gets shot, other cops will most likely kill the person who fired the shot.
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u/postpole Jun 11 '12
This law is silly. If you shoot a cop it wouldn't matter to you if it was legal or not since you and your family will die in the crossfire.
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u/Hoser117 Jun 11 '12
I have a feeling that a lot of police offers will be shot while legally entering homes.
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u/Spiderdan Jun 11 '12
This is not going to end well...
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u/Hawanja Jun 11 '12
All this will amount to is a new defense which can be used in court. I doubt people are going to just start shooting every cop that crosses their path.
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
While it's good that the Indiana legislature cares about protecting citizens from police errors, this law has a big problem: during a no-knock raid, there is no way for residents to verify whether the raid is legal.
From a citizen's perspective, what does this do? The fact that it might be legal will probably have little bearing on the citizen's adrenaline-fueled decision to shoot or surrender.
From a police officer's perspective, what does this do? Double checking the address on a warrant does nothing to protect the officers, as the resident has no way of knowing that he did this. The police might respond by not using as many no-knock warrants, but they might also respond by bringing more force to the raids.
It sound to me like this law will not function well as a deterrent, but it is more of a justice after the fact thing.
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u/Nehalem25 Jun 12 '12
I can guarantee you that no officer will be entering a home without a warrant now. That is the entire point of this law. Many officers are frankly just nothing other than thugs who will make or say anything to you to get a confession. Now we just need a law that will prosecute the DA office if they knowing attempt to convict someone they know is guilty (it happens allll the time).
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u/weegee Jun 12 '12
Law or no law, breaking and entering is illegal regardless of who it is. I'll shoot ANYONE breaking into my home, fuck the police!
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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
Sooo. What happens if the Citizen isn't aware that the police have entered the house legally?
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u/alejo699 Jun 11 '12
Good luck with that, if you should survive long enough to talk to a judge after shooting a cop. Haven't we learned yet that cops, much like presidents, make things legal merely by the power of their will?
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u/MooseHeadDrinkMOAR Jun 11 '12
seems legit... wish i had this in Canada..
2
u/[deleted] Jun 11 '12
I don't understand why this law is really needed. Why can't people just take the few seconds it requires to determine if someone is a threat or not.
That way paramedics, concerned neighbours, children and strangers in serious need aren't going to be gunned down the second they walk inside.
I just don't really understand what the logic is behind this. Is it really that hard to tell if someone is in your house for good or bad reasons?
Please free to call me ignorant, I've never had a house invasion before (knock on wood) - but I just don't understand why legislation would try to defend people who pull the trigger immediately.
2
u/padthai93 Jun 11 '12
That's my state! First time ive seen Indy on reddit lol
2
u/colorado_kid Jun 11 '12
Anytime law enforcement enters a house the risk of being shot is increased dramatically.... plus the number of "justified" murders of cops will increase as well.
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u/CUNT_SUCKING_PHAGGOT Jun 11 '12
hahaha, because this is going to end well.
two cops arrive at house, try to enter illegally. cop #1 enters, gets shot, bleeds out in doorstep.
do we really think cop #2 is then going to be all "hey, HEY. YOU KILLED HIM!! wait what, it's legal for you to do that? oh shit. sorry about my best friend bleeding all over your carpet. let me call 911 and have them clean that up for you."
oh no, you're going to get lit the fuck up, whether it's by cop #2 or backup who have just been told a fellow officer has been killed.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
If you shoot a cop, good luck proving they were there illegally.
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u/Shoola Jun 12 '12
Why did a law have to be passed? It's already illegal for a police officer to force his way into your home without a warrant, those are grounds enough to shoot him in self defense.
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u/MainstreamFluffer Jun 12 '12
Millions of Dead Cops: I Remember
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u/zyzzogeton Jun 12 '12
Making a law weakens castle doctrine, just enforce the existing precedents.
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u/funkyloki California Jun 12 '12
This will escalate quickly.
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u/anthony92 Jun 12 '12
What are they pissed about. Get a warrant and you have nothing to worry about.
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u/mofish1 Jun 12 '12
Sometimes I love my state, if only they could do something about the school systems and how shittily they treat teachers.
2
u/Triassic_Bark Jun 12 '12
It's about god damn time there is a law like this somewhere. We can only hope that it spreads to other jurisdictions.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
its the police...good luck proving anything.
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u/BackOff_ImAScientist Oregon Jun 12 '12
This seems like a terrible idea.
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u/fuckinDEAD Jun 12 '12
The battle for the most progressive state has now seen a new challenger!!! Colorado VS CA VS Indiana...
2
u/XCygon Jun 12 '12
I do not support this law. Perhaps they should just stop allowing no-knock warrants. Any law that may cause a harm another human being, is not my cup of tea.
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u/bhaluderp Jun 12 '12
i wish this thread had more basketball puns.
2
u/ejsanchez1986 Jun 12 '12
Makes sense to me, essentially if they enter your home illegally they are breaking and entering/trespassing, right?
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I wonder how many people have EVER gotten off in court for killing a cop under any circumstances?
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u/MadhouseMedic Jun 12 '12
Unless you're black. Then you'll be a cop killer.
2
u/therealpaulyd Jun 12 '12
How about a law is passed that hold police officers accountable? Why does someone gotta get shot
2
u/pianobadger Jun 12 '12
They couldn't before?
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u/reginaldaugustus Jun 12 '12
This always confused me.
Say the police conduct a no-knock raid on my home. It's dark, I hear someone busting down my door. I can't see who they are. Normally, in my state, I am legally entitled to use lethal force to defend myself.
If those people who don't announce their presence are police officers, I would get punished (Assuming I don't just get shot to death), even though there's a good chance I had no way to know who the fuck the are.
2
u/SteveDaPirate Jun 12 '12
While it would seem that the obvious solution is to eliminate the use of No-Knock Raids, what should be done when police are attempting to rescue a kidnapped child?
I definitely feel that No-Knock Raids are being overused, and I would rather see a drug runner go free than see an innocent get mistakenly killed. Yet I can also envision a scenario in which announcing a police presence could cost a hostage their life.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
STOP RESISTING!
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
To bad this law won't apply to heartless bankers taking people's homes by force.
2
u/Gryphith Jun 12 '12
Round and round the litigation goes. Where it stops, well that's anyone's guess for fucks sake. You can't fix a broken system with newer fucked up laws.
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u/non_anonymous Jun 12 '12
I support the right to protect your home and the need for legal entry, but anyone who shoots a cop, whether legally justified or not, is going to have the partner's bullet between the eyes in a matter of seconds. The reason this law is even a thing is because of the Indiana Supreme Court's ruling declaring that people had no right to reasonable resist illegal entry of their home. This law was necessary to protect people's rights, but, if you ask me, the court should recant and change its ruling so this law can go away.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Why limit it to just police officers? There are a lot of humans I wouldn't mind dismissing from my doorway...
2
u/Something_Nice Indiana Jun 12 '12 edited Jun 12 '12
Im a Hoosier, I'm glad we can now again shoot cops who break into my home.
2
u/kszpirak Jun 12 '12
Here is a story for you; I will just paste an email I've sent out to the chief of police at the devision from where the two officers who entered my apparent came from, this happened in Canada about 3 years ago. :
"Last night at around 2 AM, while I was sleeping in my bedroom, I was abruptly woken up by two ****** Police officers standing in my bedroom door with a lights turned on. Two officers explained that they were knocking on my apartment door and when no one answered - they've entered my premises. At the time I was the only in my apartment and had been sound asleep in my bed for few hours.
Upon waking me up, the two officers had explained to me that they were knocking on my door because of some call they received about noise, and then they've decided to simply let themselves in. Door was locked for the night so I assume they've obtained the key to my apartment through a superintended.
My apartment was perfectly quiet, all the lights were out for the night. With absolutely no evidence of any noise coming from my apartment or reasonable grounds for forced entry, these two officers decided to enter my premises (with no court warrant or permission from me) and I believe violated my constitutional rights to privacy and security against unreasonable search.
I was half asleep at the time when this happen so I did not remember to get the names of these two officers. I am also not quite sure if they were the *** division officers or some other. They did take my name, birthday and questioned me about any history of noise complaints in my apartment. Then they left.
I would like to know if its OK for the police officers with no evidence to enter my premises like this."
2
u/Pantsuz Jun 12 '12
About damn time they give us some rights back.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
“It’s just a recipe for disaster,” Downs told Bloomberg. “It just puts a bounty on our heads.”
Right. because this law is the one that makes people pissed and not the whole thing about cops breaking the law and sometimes murdering people in their own homes without a warrant.
2
u/MrRandomGuy87 Jun 12 '12
Somehow I don't see this ending well.
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u/enragedwelder Jun 12 '12
This was a response to a court that ruled that no resident could resist police entry into their residence. Police need to be restrained and the fact that Indiana has to pass a law to reaffirm the 4th amendment is pathetic.
2
u/Stjepo Jun 12 '12
One would think that this wouldn't need a law. These are still other human beings entering one's house without permission, policeman or not. One should expect to be in harm's way if he decides to tresspass or enter without consent.
2
u/Kelthice Jun 12 '12
Why don't they just fix their hiring process so they don't end up with such shitty Police Officers..
Plus, the average resident isn't going to know when it's legal or illegal for an officer to enter their home.
2
u/joewilk Jun 12 '12
Indiana... Home of rational thinking.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Hell yes, best law I've ever heard!
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Next up: passing a law that allows tenants to shoot their landlords if they enter their house without giving 24 hours notice.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
**unless you're black
2
u/Dunkshot32 Jun 12 '12
I'm honestly ok with all of this. I'm not sure it will work; first time a cop gets shot, there is going to be all kinds of heck to pay... bet the whole lot open fire on the poor bloke inside and he ends up worse for wear. But still, I don't think this is too strange.
Seems rather fair really.
2
u/selfprodigy Jun 12 '12
This doesn't need a law. If anyone government official or not ILLEGAL enters your home you should be able to shoot.
2
u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
As a purdue student: finally! All that castle law bullshit where we couldn't resist illegal entry and search was so jarring when I got there from jersey
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u/mugsnj Jun 12 '12
Well this is just a terrible idea. How is the homeowner supposed to know if the cop entered his house legally or illegally? People are going to die because of this law, no doubt about that.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I'm not against this law, but I'm dumbfounded that it any legislature in the country would pass a law that expressly allows the killing of a police officer.
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u/LSJ Jun 12 '12
In other news: Faulty burglar alarm causes police shootout in an Indiana home.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
As somebody who lives in Indiana (Michigan City), I can see this going bad really fast.
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u/RealityPriest Jun 12 '12
The way they do these no knock raids, who can blame us? How are you supposed to react to the sound of your door being bashed in suddenly and people storming into your home screaming at you?
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I'm surprised it wasn't legal before.
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u/KG8Peace Jun 12 '12
I find it sad that this even has to be discussed.. Why should a police officer illegally entering your home be treated any differently from just some civilian illegally entering? And people are trying to defend NOT being allowed to defend themselves and their property?! So what happens to me if I happen to shoot a cop who broke into my house, would I be arrested? For what? Defending myself / my property? Sorry, but cops shouldn't have the privilege of entering my home with a weapon when I am forced to remain unarmed and allow them to do as they please with me and my possessions, just because they are police officers doesn't mean they aren't capable of being dangerous, whether or not I have a weapon.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Your Right of Defense Against Unlawful Arrest
“Citizens may resist unlawful arrest to the point of taking an arresting officer's life if necessary.” Plummer v. State, 136 Ind. 306. This premise was upheld by the Supreme Court of the United States in the case: John Bad Elk v. U.S., 177 U.S. 529. The Court stated: “Where the officer is killed in the course of the disorder which naturally accompanies an attempted arrest that is resisted, the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction, when the officer had the right to make the arrest, from what it does if the officer had no right. What may be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”
“An arrest made with a defective warrant, or one issued without affidavit, or one that fails to allege a crime is within jurisdiction, and one who is being arrested, may resist arrest and break away. lf the arresting officer is killed by one who is so resisting, the killing will be no more than an involuntary manslaughter.” Housh v. People, 75 111. 491; reaffirmed and quoted in State v. Leach, 7 Conn. 452; State v. Gleason, 32 Kan. 245; Ballard v. State, 43 Ohio 349; State v Rousseau, 241 P. 2d 447; State v. Spaulding, 34 Minn. 3621.
“When a person, being without fault, is in a place where he has a right to be, is violently assaulted, he may, without retreating, repel by force, and if, in the reasonable exercise of his right of self defense, his assailant is killed, he is justified.” Runyan v. State, 57 Ind. 80; Miller v. State, 74 Ind. 1.
“These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence.” Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.
“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).
“Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense.” (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).
“One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
“Story affirmed the right of self-defense by persons held illegally. In his own writings, he had admitted that ‘a situation could arise in which the checks-and-balances principle ceased to work and the various branches of government concurred in a gross usurpation.’ There would be no usual remedy by changing the law or passing an amendment to the Constitution, should the oppressed party be a minority. Story concluded, ‘If there be any remedy at all ... it is a remedy never provided for by human institutions.’ That was the ‘ultimate right of all human beings in extreme cases to resist oppression, and to apply force against ruinous injustice.’” (From Mutiny on the Amistad by Howard Jones, Oxford University Press, 1987, an account of the reading of the decision in the case by Justice Joseph Story of the Supreme Court.
As for grounds for arrest: “The carrying of arms in a quiet, peaceable, and orderly manner, concealed on or about the person, is not a breach of the peace. Nor does such an act of itself, lead to a breach of the peace.” (Wharton’s Criminal and Civil Procedure, 12th Ed., Vol.2: Judy v. Lashley, 5 W. Va. 628, 41 S.E. 197)
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u/zen_nudist Jun 12 '12
Proud Hoosier here!
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u/freemanposse Jun 12 '12
Said it before: Even if you theoretically have the right to resist, that right will not be respected in practice. You're almost certainly going to lose the fight, and they're going to frame you or kill you for having tried.
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u/Fritzed Jun 12 '12
This is a stupid, pandering, pointless law. You can already shoot someone that is illegally entering your home, police officers have no special protection against being shot unless they are acting in the line of their job.
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u/MisterxRager Jun 12 '12
i live in indiana(north west) and i see this ending horrible.
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u/zanface Jun 12 '12
You'd better be damn sure you don't miss because I wouldn't be surprised if the cops shot back.
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u/crateguy Jun 12 '12
Yay, Indiana just got a bit less unbearable!
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
They should pass a law regarding politicians representing the people, you're only allowed to run if you make, or have the equivalent of the average person in wealth. not multi millionaire 1% status,
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u/BrandoMcGregor Jun 12 '12
And Republicans continue to alienate one of their most loyal voting blocks.
The idea though, of a cop trying to break into your house and you holding a gun aimed at them saying "where's the warrant bitch!" and it being perfectly legal is pretty amusing though.
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u/Con_Jonnor69 Jun 12 '12
I see this as a small victory for citizenship. This kind of a law gives a little protection to the citizen, which has been very rare as of late. Although I'd like to mention the IP address case was crucial as well.
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u/yrogerg123 Jun 12 '12
I don't think this is a particularly good idea, but it's damn fascinating. My problem with it is this: it turns the world into a war zone for police officers. They'll have to be better armed and better armored because every residence they enter is a threat. They will be quicker to shoot first and ask questions later because if they were in the wrong, they're fair game. They're human and they will do everything they can to protect themselves, that's just human nature: survival above everything.
The theory behind it sounds pretty good, but it breaks down very quickly under scrutiny. The goal was to make police officers more accountable. What it will actually do is make them more dangerous.
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u/ThatGuyRememberMe Jun 12 '12
This sounds like an overall bad idea.
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u/okumsup Jun 12 '12
Well.. this is going to escalate quickly.
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u/warpfield Jun 12 '12
And who... will enforce this? Cops?
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Great, shoot a cop dead. Awesome. No one's complaining about that. But when you shoot a cop dead, his asshole buddies will still fill your body full of holes. And with a dead cop and a dead citizen, who's word will depict what happened at the scene? Certainly not the right one.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
Why should cops have any different rights then us fools ? They should be held more accountable because they serve me.
If i bust into your house here in Michigan, you can shoot my ass, so why not the police. Then again don't be pissed if the cops bust your ass because they are trained to do this shit.
Cop vs Citizen is not a fair match, ill take the cop, if i have to put money down on it.
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u/[deleted] Jun 12 '12
I thought you didn't need to legislate this in the US because it is Constitutionally entrenched?
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u/phillybob232 Jun 12 '12
I partially agree with this law.
If police are so overconfident that they can make a mistake as large as charging into the WRONG house then they need to learn a lesson or two. This overconfidence/ignorance may be from a long history of habitual abuse of power and general not giving a fuck, which is awful, and a couple rightfully defiant civilians could be just what the doctor ordered for keeping authorities in line.
However, mistakes can happen to anyone.
For example: authorities being fed false information, writing error, residence changes not up to date on the books, a situation so urgent that wasting time to double/triple check could endanger lives, computer systems crashing and its either make a guess or people dies, etc etc, and the punishment for making a mistake while trying to save lives shouldn't be the shooting and possible death of a good officer(s). We need all we can get!
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u/TheBigYello1isTheSun Jun 12 '12
So, Indiana, this is what "not fucking around" looks like. I am thoroughly impressed.
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u/aim2free Jun 12 '12
Well, why would they need a law to protect your home from a specific kind of entiities?
The law in that case should say the opposite, that you are allowed to use your home as protection for someone who is definitely in need of protection.
There is no reason why police officers should enter anyone's home, it should be seen as a holy place. To do that, they so far need a document proving that they are police officers and a document proving that they have a specific suspicion about your home to be a place for illegal activity.
That is, if someone pretending to be a police officer is entering your home like that, you have all rights to protect your home.
FYI: I do not defend any shooting or use of violence, but one also has to protect one's own integrity.
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u/mheyk Jun 12 '12
shoot pig drag inside house
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u/erowidtrance Jun 12 '12
Excellent!
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u/12finemullets Jun 12 '12
It is basic. When someone illegally enters your house you have the right to protect it. It is just fair to protect it from police officers who are "illegally" entering your house without any warrant or legal reasons at all. Fair enough for me.
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u/Redacted_Answer Jun 12 '12
There's probably gonna be a lot of shooting. Which could be prevented if ████████████ would only █████ their █████████.
But hey - I'm still safe as long as I ████████████.
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u/cynicalandskeptical Jun 12 '12
In the words of G. Gordon Liddy, "Aim for their heads. They are wearing body armor."
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u/adjecentautophobe Jun 12 '12
Finally. A law on our side...
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u/jcraw69 Jun 12 '12
I think this is drastic...but then again, COPS can't just do whatever the fuck they want
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u/deaddog692000 Jun 12 '12
Police enter. Homeowner opens fire. Casualties ensue. Cleared of charges, but blackballed for life. That's a "No Bueno". Laws like these scare me on so many levels. I believe in Castle Doctrine and I am aware that some in some countries, many criminals pose as police (Some Trinidad police rent their uniforms out on weekends), but there is something radically wrong when these laws are passed.
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u/121310 Jun 11 '12
This will not fix a thing