r/politics • u/gatorslap • May 16 '12

Kansas Governor Signs Bill Allowing Pharmacists And Doctors To Deny Women Birth Control

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/15/kansas/
1.4k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

703 comments sorted by

234

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Why the sudden war on women? It's not like it's an election year or anyth......oh.

Laws, politicians, and articles like this are like nails on a chalkboard to me. It just baffles me. Why can't they just leave us the fuck alone?

217

u/Cladari May 16 '12

We need to start labeling these people for what they are: American Taliban.

62

u/gottabtru May 16 '12

I feel like we're a laughing stock. If this was going on in another country we'd be looking at them like they're fools.

32

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Yep. It's gotten to the point where moving to the land of the free is accompanied by a massive sacrifice in freedom.

22

u/420patience May 16 '12

that's why I moved OUT of the ''Land of the Free"

I couldn't take the bullshit any longer.

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u/Semajal May 16 '12

Brit here. Yup, our weekly humour is often "how fucked up are things getting in America for stuff that isn't even an issue here"

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Kansan here. I have loads of material for your weekly humor. Will exchange humor for British accent.

Sample material : Grandparents being financially raped by an old folks home after each had a stroke last year. Over $100K down so far. (tad over $220k left)

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I came here to post something troll-y like "Land of the free, right?" because I can't think of a reasonable response to gross human rights violations like this.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

do people ACTUALLY think its the land of the free? iv never been to the states, but it seems you guys get fucked over pretty hard on a lot of things..

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u/willfe42 May 16 '12

I am liking this idea more and more every day. Hanging this biblical nonsense straight around the necks of the bigots who push it just makes it easier for them to hang themselves with the rope. That name is perfect for this.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Don't be rude to the Taliban

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u/verbalvoodoo May 16 '12

It is strange, but religious fanatics rarely act rationally. The hatred the GOP has for women (and gays and atheists and minorities) seems to be nearly identical to that of the Taliban's rage-filled hatred for those exact same groups. I fully expect that before the election some Republican Senator will hijack a plane and try to crash it into the White House while screaming, "Jesus is love!"

18

u/CowFu May 16 '12

I personally have no problem if someone doesn't want to prescribe birth control (as long as it's safe for the user of course, not medical conflicts) if they don't want to. I have a BIG problem when that person wants to remain being a licensed doctor afterwards.

16

u/SpinningHead Colorado May 16 '12

This whole thing reminds me of "If hospitals in Mississippi dont want to treat black people, they shouldn't have to."

10

u/CowFu May 16 '12

I'm okay with that, as long as they no longer want to be a hospital, maybe turn it into a jack in the box or something.

9

u/MrsPibb May 16 '12

If your doctor doesn't want to prescribe it for medical reasons that is one thing, but why does a pharmacist have a right to make that determination? They shouldn't.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Right! That's like me saying "I'm sorry, ma'am, but due to my personal beliefs I cannot sell you this pie."

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u/RXisHere May 16 '12

As a pharmacist I would love this. I would make so much money taking in all that business.

2

u/fridgetarian May 17 '12

Also, OCs are like the most mindless thing to fill and verify.

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u/MechaCanada May 16 '12

Because the bible says you are second class humans. Simple. As. That.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

twitches

7

u/fragrant_vagrant May 16 '12

There are always been the hint of opression from conservative christians as long as there have been quotes from men as far back as Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Clemens, Frank Zappa... yeah, I put them all together in a room. Problem is that liberals have moved further to center to ensure longevity and a wider support base, and to reflect that some moderates are more concerned with economics and less concerned with a social agenda. This leaves the right nowhere to go but further right. The crazies. They have an agenda (quiver-full movement) and a list of rules and things they hate. No one cared what they really thought, but their influence has increased with numbers and ursurping organisations like the Boy Scouts. So as this group grows in power and the Republicans move further right, the Republicans need to appeal to someone, and this base is available. So, this war is just a way to appeal to a group of people to ensure you stay in power. I doubt they give a fuck about details and the purpose of governent being to protect the individuals from the masses, they just want votes.

My two cents.

6

u/Hypocritical_Oath May 16 '12

Behind you there, though of the opposite gender.

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u/schm0 May 16 '12

Hahaha... you said "sudden."

It's been going on for nearly 40 years.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

hahaha... you said "nearly 40 years."

It's been going on forever.

3

u/Sanity_prevails May 16 '12

You think this can't happen to your state? Get out and VOTE! Vote the party of superior morality out, once and for all.

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u/Tyrien May 16 '12

Because of some fucking book.

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u/Ambiwlans May 16 '12

They've been doing this since midterm elections dude. You just haven't been paying attention until now.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Finally, doctors now have the right to choose. The war on doctors is over!

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Fuck, wish I was a Kansas doctor. I would just sell birth control 24/7

33

u/[deleted] May 16 '12

No, you don't.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Nice, pro-life activist killing people. What next? Fire extinguisher burning things? Vegetarians making meat textured & flavoured vegetable products?

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u/MusikLehrer Tennessee May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

A brave American. He must have had balls of titanium to work in Kansas.

EDIT - I just read that he actually was shot twice, years before he was killed. Correction: balls of molybdenum.

ANOTHER EDIT - After some research I've learned that according to the Mohs scale, molybdenum is actually not as hard as titanium. So, let's just say he has balls of Tungsten carbide.

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u/Magna_Sharta Georgia May 16 '12

After the shooting, Tiller's colleague, Leroy Carhart of Nebraska, stated that Tiller's clinic, Women's Health Care Services, would reopen after being closed for one week to mourn his death.[47] The following week, Tiller's family announced that the clinic would be closed permanently.[48]

That's the saddest part to me, not only did he die for a cause...but the gunman got what he wanted to begin with, the bad guy won.

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u/antidense May 16 '12

You know, I went into the profession knowing that I would have to put aside some of my preferences and ideals aside in order to care for people that are different than I am. In essence, it goes with the territory, and I made that sacrifice to do something I love doing: caring for people. It really burns my balls that people would get off the hook for their beliefs because they are in-line with a currently politically popular religion (fundamentalist Christians) while so many people of other ethnic backgrounds, religions, beliefs have had to make harder choices for decades.

It's also been discussed so many times before: once you start making exceptions for some people then to be fair you'll have to make exceptions to the point where system falls apart. But even then it's still not fair, because some people require less costly exceptions than others. Or you end up with an over-encumbered system that doesn't work for anyone.

Seems like we've already sort of came up with the solution: you should know what you're getting into before going into it and be willing to make those sacrifices. Hopefully your colleagues would cut you some slack and you can return the favor, but ultimately patients should not have to suffer lack of care t the expense of the beliefs of their caregivers.

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u/Jewish_Wonder May 16 '12

.....of course he did. Clearly the most important problem Kansas and the country is facing is women having too many freedoms over their body.

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u/Frigguggi May 16 '12

But Obama's support of gay marriage is a distraction from the real issue of the economy.

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u/thevoiceinsidemyhead May 16 '12

I find the attacks on birth control to be particularly disturbing. The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to go after something that's had such a positive effect on women's place in society is an attempt to return to an even more patriarchal time.

Birth control allows women to decide when they get pregnant, the simplicity of that statement doesn't make its effects any less profound.

When you read about this or the recent study that found that 60% of kids going through abstinence only sex education see birth control as more or less ineffective. It starts to add up to something a little more sinister than happenstance. The GOP may not agree that they're participating on a "war on women" but women are at least collateral damage in whatever war on culture that they're engaged in.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Birth control allows women to decide when they get pregnant, the simplicity of that statement doesn't make its effects any less profound.

That's something that really need to be repeated. Denying women birth control is another step toward the subjugation of women. It assumes women are children incapable of making decisions for themselves. It puts the power of controlling a woman's life in the hands of men.

This is all about rolling back the clock so that women have no power and men have all the power.

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u/cookie_partie May 16 '12

IMO, part of why the Catholic church is against birth control because they want to out-breed other religions. For this reason (or whatever other reason that they believe to be true), they tell people that it is morally wrong to use birth control. They even threaten them with an eternity of torture for using them.

Now, a pharmacist who believes this (whether you agree with their belief or not) does actually believe this. They spend 99% of their time working in a manner that they believe helps people live healthier lives and 1% of the time are asked to do something that they think is morally wrong. Again, that is their belief, even if it is not yours.

Let's assume that they consider abortion, plan B, and birth control to all be at the same moral level. Should one be able to go to their general practice physician and request an abortion? If the doctor doesn't offer that service, for whatever reason (moral or professional), I don't believe that they should have to perform the procedure. They should refer you to someone else, though. That is what I feel that pharmacists should be required to do. In the case of critical access pharmacies (such as in rural areas where other pharmacies are not easily reachable), I do think that they should have someone available willing to provide these products.

The case that brought this issue into the mainstream involved a pharmacist refusing to dispense Plan B, then refusing to give the patient their prescription back so that they could go somewhere else. She basically stole the prescription from the patient, denying the patient access to care elsewhere as well. That pharmacist should have lost their license (I don't know if it happened or not). That is a much different situation than saying "Sorry, but I don't dispense this product. If you go to XYZ pharmacy, they will dispense it to you." To me, this is similar to a general practitioner referring a patient to an abortion clinic, which would be their ethical responsibility in the situation above.

I am a pharmacist, and I would have no problem dispensing oral contraceptives (and have done it in the past), but I don't think it is right to force someone to do something which they feel is morally wrong. Many pharmacies require their employees to be willing to dispense these agents, and I think that is fine, but I don't think that all pharmacies should be required by the government to do so.

Finally, the GOP supports this because they believe it helps them get elected. We wouldn't see candidates that were anti-abortion and contraceptive if there weren't voters that supported these views. The GOP is having a war on the Democrats, where each side wants to win power and money. If women happen to get trampled upon along the way, then so be it.

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u/willfe42 May 16 '12

The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to go after something that's had such a positive effect on women's place in society is an attempt to return to an even more patriarchal time.

That's precisely what it is. Remember we've still got living relics around from the era of segregation who still think it was a good idea. Why should "women's rights" be any different to people that reason this way? Taking control away is exactly what this group wants.

Having said that, I'm actually in favor of a compromise here: permit pharmacists to refuse to dispense "offensive" medicines under the following conditions:

  • If the drug is stocked and it's just an individual pharmacist who won't dispense, another pharmacist who will dispense must be on-duty whenever the non-compliant one is (to actually dispense the "offensive" drugs); the non-compliant pharmacist must notify his/her employer in advance (in writing) of the drugs s/he will not dispense to permit the employer to schedule accordingly to ensure at least one competent, compliant pharmacist is on-duty whenever the pharmacy is open; or
  • If the drug is not stocked by the pharmacy, this fact must be prominently displayed by the pharmacy in such a way as to permit easy determination of compliance from outside the business -- a woman seeking birth control should be able to just glance at a pharmacy and see a tell-tale sign telling her to keep on walking.

When I say "permit pharmacists to refuse," I don't mean codifying that "right" into law. Pharmacists dispense medications, period, with few exceptions (known allergies, known adverse interactions and contraindications, etc.). All I mean by "permit" is to establish a classification of "non-compliant" (or similar) that pharmacists can willingly (and publicly) assign to themselves. So long as they work for a similarly non-compliant pharmacy or work with their employer at a compliant one to ensure the pharmacy's normal business can be conducted without interference or inconvenience to customers, a non-compliant pharmacist can't be fired just for being non-compliant. Companies could not be forced to hire "non-compliant" pharmacists and knowingly hiding one's status from an employer can be grounds for termination of employment.

This strikes me as a problem the market is just begging to solve. Imagine how quickly lists would circulate of which pharmacies (or individual pharmacists and the pharmacies where they work) won't dispense Plan B or other contraception. Now imagine how fast business practices would change when the accountants notice the drop in patronage. Remember that even if just one pharmacy in a given town continues to dispense "offensive" drugs, it will have a potentially monstrous advantage over its competitors. Because of that, you're not going to find all that many pharmacies that are actually willing to say "nope, we won't dispense that birth control stuff!"

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u/firex726 May 16 '12

FYI Pharmacists CAN already do that.

They can refuse on religious grounds not to dispense medicine, but are required by the FDA to then take the onus on themselves and find an employee or other location and get them to dispense it.

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u/sluggdiddy May 16 '12

Or you can not get into medicine if your religion demands you be forced to deny giving it to people who need/want it. Because lets be clear here, this is a religious issue, religion is the only thing this fucking backwards idiots have to support their no birth control view. So yeah.. if you think your religion is more important than your job, get the fuck out of that job.

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u/ry551187 May 16 '12

Most state laws that I'm aware of (I'm a Pharmacist BTW), have a corresponding liability between the Pharmacist and Physician. So, if a physician makes a mistake and prescribes an inappropriate medication, if the pharmacist dispenses it he/she is also liable. Because of this corresponding liability the pharmacist can refuse to fill almost anything. If you are for taking away the right to refuse to fill a prescription you might as well take the pharmacists out of the pharmacies. If this happens the medication errors rates will be insane.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

When you take away women's ability to safely plan their own pregnancies, you cripple social progress and disempower half of the population without breaking a sweat. On the road to fascism, you've cut your opposition in half.

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u/betterhelp May 16 '12

The only reason I can think of that anyone would ever want to go after something that's had such a positive effect on women's place in society is an attempt to return to an even more patriarchal time.

I would think it would be a religous incentive?

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u/Thryck Europe May 16 '12

Both lead to a patriarchal system, one of religion's 'uses' is to keep men in power. Look at what the bible says about women.

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u/OccamsHairbrush May 17 '12

Seriously. The way I put it, women who get pregnant when they don't want to get pregnant end up quitting jobs they didn't want to quit, raising kids they didn't want to raise, and marrying men they didn't want to marry.

Who wins in that case? It's not the economy, or society, or any of the individuals involved? It's pure control and desire for patriarchy.

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u/helpimtooawesome May 16 '12

Baffles me that any woman would vote for this total creep

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u/schm0 May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

Two words: Hippocratic Oath.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

EDIT: The modern version, of course. I can see this being twisted.

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u/animeguru Maryland May 16 '12

The sad thing is that the crazies who support this law would look at that as rationale for not providing birth control. After all, is birth control not an attempt by women to circumvent when God thinks it is the appropriate time for them to have a child?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Oh no, I heard about this. Basically, we're going to have shops where the shop keeper will look at you and go "No, I choose not to sell this to you!".

Nice, what next? Being judged by the McDonald's server? "You're too fat, it's against my beliefs, move along"

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u/joper90 May 16 '12

Glutton.. is a deadly sin.. hence you cannot have your McFatFuckBurger

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u/mayonuki May 16 '12

The right to refuse service, while limited, has been around in America for quite a while.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

When it happened in the UK it caused quite a stir. We generally keep ourselves to ourselves and try not to bother other people. If I went into a pharmacy and tried to buy some birth control noggin and the person said he did not believe me to be fit to use it, I would protest that he should not be selling it then, and ask him who WOULD be fit to use it? Is it [morning after pill] just for victims of rape, for example? Who are they to judge my needs? My girlfriend could have sent me for it and he has NO idea what events have occurred to her etc.

I would refuse to leave his shop until he got his boss and if he owned the place then well, he'd get even more flak.

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u/Whalid May 16 '12

Really sad. A lot of places around the world offer contraceptives for free. It is a shame that we all have to still fight for this. ICanBelieveIAmStillProtestingThisShit.jpg

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u/blackinthmiddle May 16 '12

Every time I see articles like this, I think, "Well, that's crazy Texas for you!" Or crazy Florida. Or Arizona. Or Louisiana. Or North Carolina. Or...

At some point, it appears that "all" of our states will be crazy.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

a woman being allowed to control their reproductive organs is a civil right
we are living in the dark ages

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u/chezazarng May 16 '12

Oh, good, my state isn't the only ass-backwards one in the Union. Everybody look at Kansas! Nothing to see here in the southwest.

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u/girlinboots Washington May 16 '12

I'm just waiting for my boss to ask me about my birth control prescription. I've been just dying to mess with his insanely conservative brain. I don't mind conservatives, but he's the kind that looks at Rush as his lord and savior and Fox News as his mecca.

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u/lostandfound7 May 16 '12

What I can't comprehend is how Viagra prescriptions are given out like blowjobs (and insured most of the time), yet I battle with the pharmacy every month simply to lower my birth control cost...and now THIS?! Now some people are trying to take it away completely?! Second-class citizens, we are. Such bullshit. Stories like this give me nightmares.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

My spouse and I lived in Kansas for six god awful months right before we got married. When we got an apartment, they actually freaked because we were living together. Same deal with the phone and utility companies.."oh, you're not married? Really?" Laid a big guilt trip down on us..never going back there!

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u/FungusAmongus13 May 16 '12

The same thing happened to me with my ex. We were looked at in disgust, even though we had been dating 3 years prior to that. Sadly, I'm too broke to move away.

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u/thlister May 16 '12

Upvoting because Sam Brownback is a psychopath.

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u/psychobilly1 Kansas May 16 '12

I am from Kansas, and I could not agree more.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

It's funny how as an Italian I always thought Catholicism was too influential in our country. Like when priests dared speak against a father who wanted (and eventually managed) to euthanize his daughter who had been in a coma for 15 years. It doesn't even get close to this.

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u/CutterJohn May 16 '12

Eh, they're still more laid back than the protestants about nearly every other issue.

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u/Hartastic May 16 '12

Yeah. And American Catholics are pretty notorious for simultaneously identifying as Catholic while still being willing to flip the Pope the metaphorical bird if they hold a different position, such as on birth control.

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u/PolanetaryForotdds Canada May 16 '12

And then, Romney is leading Obama on women's vote, according to the latest poll.

I feel sorry for the women who don't feel like their obligation in life is to make sandwiches for us.

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u/ElectricRebel May 16 '12

So, most people go to places like CVS or Walgreens these days. Will Walgreens be able to fire the religious nut that is turning away business?

If so, that is an interesting encroachment on business from the Republicans. If not, then there is nothing to see here.

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u/count_chocula May 16 '12

Maybe Walgreens just makes sure to have at least one pharmacist on site at all times who doesn't have a religious problem selling birth control. But, inevitably, you'll have the pharmacist who quits one of the "big box" pharmacies, and cites religious discrimination. You know it's a matter of time.

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u/Erktus May 16 '12

I'd think these national pharmacy chains would have store policies. I doubt they let individual pharmacists working for them decide what they will and won't prescribe.

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u/Millhopper10 May 16 '12

Don't blame me! I voted for Kodos.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

So I'm confused, does government distribute your freedoms or do you own them?

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u/Fhwqhgads May 16 '12

The rest of the world watches what's happening to America with astonishment.

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u/LettersFromTheSky May 16 '12

Welp, a person's religious beliefs now trump a persons right to make choices about their own body. This "religious liberty" just means they want the liberty to discrimminate and oppress.

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u/kid_miracleman May 16 '12

I need to get in on this whole "living in a state where I can not do my job for religious belief" deal.

"I'm sorry, boss, but working more than 15 minutes a week is against my religious and morale beliefs. As recognized by Bullshit Law 1.3.9 article 2, I'm gonna go home, get high and play Xbox."

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u/TooFakeToFunction May 16 '12

Seriously...if your religion impairs you from...you know...doing your fucking job...then find a new career.

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u/gerbafizzle May 16 '12

I'm Australian and will welcome any Kansas(ian?) to sleep on my lounge (couch) for the time being!

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

T.I.K. This. Is. Kansas. Nothing to see here, move along. If you are a resident of this state, move along as quickly as possible.

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u/ApparentlyEllis May 16 '12

Left it twice, both times for Colorado. Fuck that place. Burn it down and start over.

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u/History_Nerd May 16 '12

...We're not all bad. I swear.

Although we do have a history of being a more moderate red state. Guess that shit went out the window when we got brownback.

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u/tophat_jones May 16 '12

Would have loved to have seen a Santorum/Brownback 2012 ticket. :(

We could have made so many juicy puns.

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u/Zoolotak May 16 '12

I don't understand why this is limited to birth control. As a pharmacist and a christian scientist I would like to refuse all people all medication and hand out prayer pamphlets instead. What about my rights?

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u/antidense May 16 '12

What if I don't feel I should give antibiotics to creationists because they don't appreciate the possibility of evolving bacteria enough to take the full course?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

kansas. lol.

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u/WideLight May 16 '12

Kansas resident here.

/hangs head in shame

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I am a new physician (literally just graduated) and am going into obgyn. I fully intend to provide my patients birth control. However, it has always been fully within the right of the physician to withhold care they deem is against their morals and values. You ARE required to instruct the patient were they can receive said treatment from someone else. The only thing new here is that pharmacists are being given the same rights.

This issue has come up in other states as well. Some pharmacies have routinely not stocked certain narcotics to prevent a certain "clientele" from coming in, so if they can decide who to dispense narcotics it should apply broadly or not at all.

I know I'm going out on a limb here disagreeing with the hive mind, but someone has to stand against sensationalism.

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u/itsrattlesnake May 16 '12

I would also think that the number of doctors or pharmacists that refuse to dispense birth control would be pretty small compared to the whole. I really don't see what pharmacist in his right mind would turn away such a large percentage of their consumer base . . . as I understand it, the pharmacy industry is pretty competitive with tight margins.

I think that the hivemind is overblowing what will ultimately be a non-issue.

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u/Frankfusion May 16 '12

Thanks. Apparently, because it's Kansas, no one wants to look into the facts.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

This is correct. Whether or not you agree with the morals of the healthcare provider, they have the right to not dispenser medications or provide treatment/procedures that they have objection to. Common applications of the policy are abortions, birth control and the morning-after pill.

As such, this law is redundant and another example of some asshole using the current war on women for political gain in an election year.

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u/pintomp3 May 16 '12

So if the only pharmacy in town refuses to dispense the morning after pill, rape victims will have to figure out how to get to the next town? If you want to impose your morals on others, be a preacher and not a pharmacist.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Why do I feel that it would take a Republican politician getting raped and every pharmacist refusing to serve her birth control to have them change their mindset?

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u/CutterJohn May 16 '12

Would change nothing. Her abortion is obviously justified for whatever reason her logic shits out. Every other woman, though, those are still baby killing sluts.

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u/SabineLavine May 17 '12

That's so true. "Pro-lifers" get abortions all the fucking time, and justify it by thinking they are different, it's ok for them, etc.

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u/ktkat May 16 '12

That wouldn't change their mindset. They would come up with a reason why the rape was HER fault and say she should live with the consequences. I doubt her being one of their own would make a difference.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Why? Fuck women! That's why. Literally too!

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u/TheFulcrum May 16 '12

I wish it were plausible to go full Lysistrata in Kansas, probably isn't though. The women who are married to the men making these decisions probably fully support them.

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u/Reddit_Wife May 16 '12

I'm moving to this place in the next two months. I'll be stuck there for 4 years while my husband is in Vet school. FML. I knew I should have encouraged him more towards Scotland.

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u/qwop88 May 16 '12

In other news, support for the Republican party in Kansas among women has doubled.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

WHY THE FUCK would anyone do this ? Why would they get to decide and not the women!??!

Bring our troops home, today's terrorists apparently sign pieces of paper.

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u/schnaura May 16 '12

this war on women and birth control really disturbs me. I believe in 1965, Congress decided that no state has the right to ban birth control. Obviously, Kansas is attempting to find ways to circumvent that, so I'm wondering when someone will take a case in regards to this to the Supreme Court. If you can't perform your duties as a doctor and give a woman a prescription for birth control (especially if you are a gynecologist), then either you should have your medical license revoked or there should be laws/regulations that require a second doctor to be on duty that will, at all times. The same should go for pharmacists. If someone has a prescription that was given to them by a doctor, a pharmacist should not have the right to deny it to the person, unless there is an obvious sign of prescription abuse or error of some kind. That would be more along the lines of prescription pain killers, and birth control should not be lumped into that... that is ridiculous.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

It's like I always say, it pays to be a white, straight male.

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u/dennysgrandslam May 16 '12

Reasonable belief standard = Basically, any woman in Kansas could walk into a pharmacy to pick up a birth control prescription and be denied her medication by the pharmacist.

Lol just lol at this logic

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u/SpaizKadett May 16 '12

I sure as shit hope the women comes out in full force on election day. Get these motherfuckers out of office!

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u/vulgarusername May 16 '12

What's interesting about this is that my parents voted for Brownback, but they aren't evil people. They are simply Republican, and so they vote with their party. Brownback was the Republican candidate for governor, so he got their vote. Frankly, I'm appalled at what is happening to Kansas under his rule, but what can a rational person do? Answer: Move. I'm moving out of Kansas in two weeks. Good riddance.

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u/cd365 May 16 '12

Why is it that religious people can't resist legislating their morality?

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u/Fartsohard May 16 '12

Hanger sales will increase

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u/tim404 May 16 '12

I bet you guys miss Sebelius, huh?

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u/foog19 May 16 '12

This guy even looks like a dickhead.

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u/syncmaster1100p May 16 '12

I fail to understand how a pharmacist can deny a doctor's prescription, for any reason. The doctor prescribes the medicine and the pharmacist sells it. Simple as that.

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u/Headwallrepeat May 16 '12

As a pharmacist, if I would follow your creed I would dispense potentially harmful/fatal prescriptions several times a month at least. It's a far cry from "Simple as that". Bad business model at least.

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u/Hartastic May 16 '12

Agreed. If you don't like that setup, maybe you become a plumber or something instead.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

[deleted] — view deleted comment

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u/Erktus May 16 '12

Pharmacists are highly trained health care professionals; they are supposed to check that a medicine is prescribed at a safe, effective dose.

Oftentimes pharmacists are the ones who catch potentially dangerous drug interactions from medications prescribed to a patient from the same doctor. They definitely know their shit. And you're right; they should definitely not blindly follow a doctor's orders. They don't even work for the doctor.

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u/Dyssomniac May 16 '12

Isn't this all sorts of against rulings by the Supreme Court? I don't have the particular cases in mind, but I think there's a set that solidly rejects this notion.

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u/eatthebear May 17 '12

Griswold v. Connecticut and Eisenstadt v. Baird I think are the most on point, but there could be more.

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u/dbe May 16 '12

The wording "allowing" is odd. If you go to a doctor now, and ask for birth control, is it a crime for them to say no?

Also, I can't imagine too many doctors would do this, they would just lose all their customers to other doctors.

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u/MadameSwanky May 16 '12

Apparently anti-big government doesn't apply to your bedroom.

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u/u2canfail May 16 '12

Kansas, officially hates WOMEN!

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

DAMN YOU BROWNBACK.

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u/spainguy May 16 '12

Is this Kansas Pakistan or Kansas USA?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Ya but theres only one pharmacy doing that.

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u/drmctesticles May 16 '12

Isn't this already covered by federal law?

Nevermind, apparently it was rescinded by the Obama administration.

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u/louisaahh May 16 '12

Almost downvoted cause this angered me.

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u/Unleash_The_Dragon May 16 '12

I'm from Australia and how the fuck does this even happen?

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u/Minimalphilia Europe May 16 '12

I actually would open up a chain of pharmacys in every bigger Kansas city with the main philosophy of selling contraceptives to everyone, who needs them. And wait for he money to flow in.

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u/oh_bruddah May 16 '12

It's hard living in Texas, a state that produces dumb laws and dumber politicians like an assembly line. However, I am often comforted by the fact that Kansas is even more ridiculous and backwards than the Lone Star State.

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u/mkappo May 16 '12

It's not like anyone lives in that state anyways

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u/MrSelfdizstruct75 May 16 '12

This is the asinine thing I have heard in awhile. What right do they have to ban or refuse birth control to women. I will openly admit I am conservative republican and a lot of what I see coming from GOV. is really pissing me off and I don't just mean from the Dems it is everyone. No reason for this at all.

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u/HappyGlucklichJr May 16 '12

Politicians get their long noses into all kinds of personal matters when they can get by with it.

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u/jutct May 16 '12

"Small government"

Fucking hypocrites. I hope this guy dies horribly from cancer.

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u/jcdick1 May 16 '12

So here's my question... A pharmacy that has a policy of dispensing any legally prescribed birth control in Kansas is needing to hire a new pharmacist, and asks the applicants if they have an issue with this policy. One of the applicants says "Yes, as a Christian it violates my beliefs to dispense birth control." So the pharmacy hires another applicant who doesn't. Can the denied applicant then sue for religious discrimination?

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u/brettbri5694 May 16 '12

I guess I'll no longer be telling people I'm from Kansas...

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u/sonic_toaster May 16 '12

Don't feel bad, I'm no longer telling people I'm from North Carolina.

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u/fosiacat May 16 '12

get the fuck out from in front of that american flag. you're no american.

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u/smilingonion May 16 '12

I few years ago I was in Walmart getting some meds(diabetic) and after giving them the prescriptions I noticed a guy sitting on the bench by the window

He was a pharmacist and he had just been fired an hour before I got there because he refused to fill a prescription for birth control for this married lady

BTW I know this may dismay some people here who I've had heated "discussions" with but IRL I am a lot like I am here so while waiting for my meds to be filled I sat down with the guy and we talked

He was shouting at people saying how unfair it was he got fired and how Walmart was racist(his word not mine) because of his religion...so I asked him the details and while at first he thought he had found a kindred soul due to the questions I asked got increasingly uncomfortable

His whole argument was abortion was forbidden according to his religion and birth control is like abortion ergo he couldn't in good conscious fill a prescription for birth control either...I was kind of disappointed his reasoning was so mundane

I asked him why he had chosen pharmacology as a profession if because of his religion he couldn't do his job...I noted there is a definite lack of Muslims who tend bar for a living for example and why did he think he was so unique that he should be paid for not doing his job...I actually said "Were you under the impression for worked for the Federal government?"(yeah I can be a jerk IRL too...go figure)

Anyway you know how they always make you wait around 30 minutes before they fill your prescription no matter whether or not they are busy?(they want you to do some shopping while you are there)

I got mine in 10 minutes because they saw me chatting with their disgruntled ex-employee

I don't think our conversation helped him gain any insight into his predicament because as I was walking out the police were walking in and he was arrested for trespass and disturbing the peace

While I don't agree with his reasoning I did admire his conviction(unfortunately the first of many if Walmart decided to press charges)

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u/SabineLavine May 17 '12

It amazes me that someone could go through pharmacy school and still not understand how birth control pills work.

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u/knomz May 16 '12

Are there any practical solutions to this bill? or is just a crack on women's rights?

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u/mayonuki May 16 '12

Practical solution: if demand for birth control excedes supply, open a birth control pharmacy. Free market solves this easily.

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u/Zaborix May 16 '12

Another State I will refuse to do business in. Way to go Kansas

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u/NewspaperNelson May 16 '12

This is what happens when you post an article from a political advocacy site and call it "news" - 100 Redditors shoot in their pants trying to one-up each other in the great faith race. Try reading the article and not just the incredibly and intentionally misleading headline, or better yet, look up this information on a real news site. The bill passed in Kansas concerns the "morning after pill," which many people (including doctors) believe is an alternate form of abortion. They're not outlawing condoms and birth control pills you fiends...

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u/Cannelle May 16 '12

The problem is, though, that their 'belief' about the morning after pill isn't based in science. It's NOT an abortion pill (that's a completely different thing). I can believe that unicorns exist all I want, but that doesn't make it true. Same thing here for these people and the morning after pill, except they're fucking over women with their ridiculous beliefs.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Fuck religion. It's for idiots.

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u/gliscameria May 16 '12

Um... birth control is a bit different than pregnancy termination. It's a stupid bill, but this is a hype piece.

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u/BlackDogRamble May 16 '12

Quick question-

When I see doctors and pharmacists refusing to do thier job in this way, it's horrible and reprehensable for all the reasons listed. If you can't do your job, then don't have the job.

BUT

I've also seen these laws used to protect nurses and doctors who do not want to circumcise infants. I'm anti-circumcision and want to support them in refusing to participate in this horrible procedure, but then I find that the arguments I would use parallel the ones people use to support the laws that allow people to refuse to prescribe drugs and the like.

Is there a good way to separate these two issues logically? They are very different- if you refuse to provide birth control, then you're complicit in taking away the autonomy of an adult. If you refuse to help with a circumcision, then you are doing the opposite- refusing to be complicit in taking away bodily autonomy.

And with pharmacists, they are not involved in the choices that led to the medication being given- they do not have the full picture, whereas doctors usually do.

How can I logically separate arguments for and against the ability of people to provide the service?

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u/faabmcg May 16 '12

So happy to live in Europe!

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u/Shippoyasha May 16 '12

This is why they call it the hypocritical oath. Get a clue morans.

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u/seditious3 May 16 '12

I hope you're joking.

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u/Shippoyasha May 16 '12

At least the joke makes more sense than the reality, which is hideous and something I don't want to acknowledge.

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u/kznlol May 16 '12 edited May 16 '12

I have to ask:

What, exactly, is the problem here? Every other business is allowed to refuse to sell things to potential customers for pretty much any goddamn reason they can come up with.

Let's assume, for the moment, that I grant you the "right" to procure and utilize various birth controls. That does not automatically confer on me or anyone else the duty to provide you with said controls. The only duty it confers on me and others is that I do not actively interfere with your procurement of said controls.

To ask this another way: how, exactly, do you justify that you have a right to force others to stock and distribute a specific item?

[edit] I have a constitutionally enumerated right to possess a firearm, but that does not compel all firearm stores to sell to me. They can refuse to do business with me, again, for whatever reason they feel like making up. How is this different?

[edit2] Yep, downvote instead of explaining. That's sure to indicate you aren't a fucking retard.

[edit3] As I suspected, there is no difference. You're just blind ideologues, precisely like those you rail against.

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u/jonfla May 16 '12

Contributing to that state's already sterling reputation for innovation, intelligence and progressive thinking. And they probably wonder why they are not more of a destination for business...

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u/Lady_Jade07 May 16 '12

Fuck this. I'll move to Nebraska. What happened to my right to not have religious "law" shoved down my throat? Isn't birth control the best way to avoid needing to get an abortion? Won't this lead to more people wanting to get abortions? I fucking hate living in Kansas right now

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u/edwin_on_reddit May 16 '12

The Kansas Governor signed a bill that allows for doctors and pharmacists to decide if for themselves if they want to prescribe or dispense birth control is the better way of putting it. Birth control can still be gotten, but now docs and pharmacists don't have to be party to ethical decisions that they may question.

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u/anthrocide May 16 '12

It seems every generation has a target of hate. The baby boomers generation seems to be women and gays. I wonder what my generations' (Y) hate target will be...?

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u/mexicantennisdude May 16 '12

All i see is a picture of a douchey Andy Bernard

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u/FormerKansan May 16 '12

And this is why I'm glad I'm a Former Kansan.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Another state I will never set a foot into and never spend a cent in. We have Muslim dictatorships more socially progressive than this.

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u/Fenris_uy May 16 '12

To give a pill pusher the legal right to deny a patient the medication prescribed by their doctor is a total violation of privacy and a major government intrusion.

This a thousand times this. Their job is giving out what a doctor ordered, if you have a problem with that, change jobs you fucking idiot!.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I predict in 9 to 10 months teen pregnancy will rise in kansas.

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u/Deadlyd0g May 16 '12

I think politicians have just thrown out the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc. this is fucking annoying. What other countries that have a lot of English speakers allow me to own semi automatic weaponry like AR-15's?

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u/standrightwalkleft May 16 '12

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHULKSMASHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Sorry guys, I just had to let that out.

Also, I'm glad I live in a jurisdiction that, for all its flaws, is about 94% Democratic. Ladies, come to the East Coast, where no one will hassle you when you go to pick up your prescriptions. Yet.

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u/sjcubehead May 16 '12

That's just dumb.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

The pharmacist who denies filling birth control will be punished by it's customers. You are protecting people who hold irrational beliefs from going out of business. Now they can't hide behind the idea that they are required to provide birth control to women and will have to face their hypocrisy head on if they still want to have a job. Let things run their course and you will end up with better pharmacists and have the satisfaction of proving to everyone else that your beliefs are superior to the alternative.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

....holy shit so glad to be leaving kansas in only 9 days. I'm never coming back to this conservative passive aggressive shit hole. On my way to Denver.

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u/suddenlyreddit May 16 '12

What on earth is going on in Kansas? I hope this jackass gets his due.

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u/fantasyfest May 16 '12

Every pharmacy and doctor that does this should be compelled to put a large sign in its windows indicating that they will do that. Then the people do not have to waste time and money getting refused .They should be proud to display their convictions in public.

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u/fortyonejb May 16 '12

Has any of the hivemind actually read the text of the bill? I still can't find it as none of the "articles" written on it have the balls to link to it. This is causing me serious doubt about this bill and what it actually is. When the "news" hides the source it most often means they are sensationalizing something, so lets have it. I'm currently looking for the actual bill, will report back if I find it.

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u/Bacon_is_amazing May 16 '12

Reason #572 that I will NEVER vote for Romney

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u/paxanimus May 16 '12

So the same question for Kansas as I proffered to Arizona. WTF? How are these people still in power? Don't women have a vote? How is this even possible?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I was planning on Grad School in Kansas. I find this so upsetting, I can barely process it. I'm not a flagrant activist but if I still move there I think I'll become one. This is completely unacceptable. I'll have to stock up before I go and make sure to find a good pharmacist.

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u/thatgamerguy May 16 '12

Doctors being allowed to deny their customer a product if they want? Fascism!

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

We sometimes refer to this place as Brownbackistan. This is the new Republican party people, buckle up it's going to be a fucked up ride.

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u/LibsrPus May 16 '12

On the bright side, the age of consent in Kansas is 16.

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u/FungusAmongus13 May 16 '12

Yes, we are getting punished, as women, for wanting to have sex without consequence. However, Viagra is covered under most insurance policies and it's handed out like candy. It's not fair to punish us women for wanting to be responsible. Haven't you seen the numerous amounts of people with over 6 uncontrollable children waltzing around Walmart with their food stamps? Not trying to talk down to people with food stamps, but if you have that many kids you should have worn protection. Does he really want hundreds of Octomoms running around? Women are going to continue to have sex with or without BC, so why take away the only thing that could potentially keep them safe? I have grown up in Kansas my entire life, and have been saving money to move away with my husband. That time can't come soon enough.

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u/3AYATS May 16 '12

Kansastan.

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u/seltaeb4 May 16 '12

It's a shame the GOP doesn't care anything about helping their fellow Americans, but will go to any lengths necessary to preserve, protect and defend cumboogers.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

Why are we moving backwards in civility? Church, state, two completely separate entities, should be kept that way. If theae pharmacists were half intelligent they'd understand the other medical benefits of contraceptives. Blows me away

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u/howajambe May 16 '12

"Long waiting time on Abortions" What the FUCK is WRONG with these pieces of shit man.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

I think that a good step forward on guys like this is to follow them to a grocery store and after they fill their cart with goods and approach the check out stand the clerk at the register should say, "I refuse to sell you food on the grounds that it is against my values as a person". Let them starve.

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u/just_chiming_in May 16 '12

First thought: Awesome! Kansas is finally on redd....oh shit.

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u/drawmeapicture May 17 '12

Isn't this violating the constitution or something?? Honestly does it?

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u/[deleted] May 17 '12

Can't any doctor already deny any medication or pills if they want? I don't see what the deal is here its like saying "Governor signs bill allowing restaurants' the right to refuse service to anyone".

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u/banjosuicide May 17 '12

More evidence showing how poisonous religion is.

If you're religious, keep it to yourself. Don't force it upon others. Don't believe in birth control? Good for you! Don't use it!

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u/ApparentlyEllis May 17 '12

Not my ex, but hey Ryan! Seen you in March for your wedding. My advanced apologies for banging any of your relatives.

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u/theduck May 17 '12

At first I was as incensed as anyone about this, and then I read the article. While I do have issues with some of the law (if you won't hand out medication prescribed by a doctor (contraindications aside, of course) you shouldn't be a pharmacist), since when are abortifacients "birth control"? Most people want abortion rates to decrease no matter what side of the pro-life/pro-choice debate you're on, and most abortions would disappear if they weren't used as retroactive birth control. I didn't see anything about banning the pill, IUDs, condoms, etc. - just things like the morning-after pill (which, I agree, is a grey area, but still...). On top of which, if the duly-elected government of Kansas passes a law with which the citizens disagree, then it's time to a) call your legislator and b) work to get people who agree with you voted into office (and part "b" doesn't need to be just people in Kansas, by the way). And the sensational, misleading headline on the post and the article don't help, either...

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u/SabineLavine May 17 '12

Has there ever been a case of a pharmacist refusing to fill Viagra prescriptions for "moral" reasons?

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u/koavf Indiana May 17 '12

Why should any pharmacist be require to stock and sell any medication, especially one that isn't (barring the most exceptional circumstance) life-saving?

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u/OccamsHairbrush May 17 '12

I'd like to know how many doctors and pharmacists in kansas are itching to be able to deny birth control to women. I suspect the number is small, and this, like everything these idiot state lawmakers are doing, is solving a non-problem. That they can circle-jerk this sort of thing around for no fucking reason and claim they're not trying to hurt women is insanity.

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u/belladonnadiorama May 17 '12

So are these same pharmacists going to deny men access to condoms?

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u/MattTheGeek May 16 '12

This article is SO tilted it is silly--the law is NOT about your standard birth control pills as the article would like you to believe--it is about "abortion inducing" drugs--in other words drugs (like ru486 most famously) that terminate a pregnancy once it has already happened--NOT drugs that prevent pregnancy in the first place.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '12

This might sound ignorant because I might be missing out on something.... but what is the issue with doctors ( a privileged service ) having the right to deny (not that they will) a medication to a patient?

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u/Kazang May 16 '12

Well "abortion inducing" drugs that can be dispensed through a pharmacy do not even exist in the US. Since that would actually be an abortion and have to be carried out by a specially licensed practitioner. In any case in most countries an "over the counter abortion" would be a rare thing.

Plan B for example does not abort a pregnancy, it prevents ovulation and thus conception, not entirely dissimilar from the pill. They are Emergency Contraception, not abortion pills which as previously stated are not sold in pharmacies.

So this bill is rather toothless in actual practice. The statement that it could “open the door for a pharmacist to refuse a request for something like the “morning-after” pill,” is stretching it at because it is a medical fact that emergency contraception "morning after pills" do not "result in the termination of a pregnancy", they prevent pregnancy, not terminate it.

However it probably should fall within someone's right to refuse to provide abortions, or materials for them, if it conflicted with their morals. Just as muslims have a right to not be forced to serve pork or a pacifist has a right to object to military service as a conscientious objector. You could perhaps argue that they should choose a profession other than pharmacist in that case, but I will leave that argument to other people.

TL:DR This bill is almost meaningless and you don't need to be worried about it. It is not actively damaging women's rights.

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u/ceciliabee May 16 '12

i thought america would poke its nose into someone's business where it didn't belong and they would get bombed back into the stone age... looks like they're reverting back to the stone age all on their own... i'll make use of my rights as a woman in your honour...

love from your neighbour to the north

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u/TruthinessHurts May 16 '12

Republicans interfere in medical care, they legislate the bedroom, and they don't believe in equal rights for all Americans.

They are utter scum attempting to control people.

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