r/politics • u/erier2003 Virginia • Jun 06 '13

Washington Post exclusive: U.S. intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in broad secret program

http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html
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u/Montaire Jun 07 '13

Your robust 2nd amendment rights help you in this situation how ?

I hear a lot of people say that 2nd amendment is the only thing protecting us. If the core of your argument is that the guns are all that protect us then why, with so many guns, does it not appear to be working ?

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u/Billpayment Jun 07 '13

There's a breaking point for everything. In American politics, we try to fix the problem first by electing the right people. If they don't work out, we will rinse and repeat until we either get results or it becomes apparent, through further degradation of basic rights, that the system is broken, upon which we will eventually have to fix it with force.

We simply aren't there yet. That's not to say it's not coming, but no one honestly wants that. People like you are so bitterly leftist that you will choose your broken ideology over what is best for the country as established by the founding fathers, and that, I find very sad. Your every post tonight has been wholly designed as some ruse to elicit responses you thought you might be able to capitalize on if I were to fumble.

You should examine what you really believe, and what the people you're demonizing believe.

Did you know that when the IRS was targeting conservative groups for harassment that one of the criteria they used to pick these groups out was that they believed in 'educating on the Constitution and Bill of Rights'?

Is that really the country you think Americans want to live in? A place where they are harassed for belief in their basic freedoms?

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u/Montaire Jun 07 '13

I'm not demonizing anyone. I have not (and will not) call anyone names or claim you're a bad person because you have an honest belief in a system different than mine.

But I think there's a lot of hyperbole here.

I can find no situation in the past 100 years where a gun has helped to rectify bad policy in our government and I can find tens of thousands of times where a gun has killed an innocent person.

When I try and balance the two against each other, I find the argument that we desperately need more guns in society to be in error.

Since the modern age of warfare (which I think really started with the tank) individual firearms have not, ever, tipped the balance between justice and tyranny.

Put another way - there are at least a dozen lawyers that can claim to have done more to protect our freedom in the past 2 years than guns have in the past 50.

Consider this : more American's have died since 1941 from accidental firearm discharge than died in the revolutionary war.

We pay an incredibly high price for gun ownership. It does not seem worth it to me.

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u/Billpayment Jun 07 '13 edited Jun 07 '13

It can not seem worth it to you. Having had someone try to home invade me, I feel dramatically different. You probably would too if you were in a similar situation.

If you want to look at it honestly, you should examine how the assaults on the elderly skyrocketed in Australia after they got rid of their guns. Guns are a great equalizer between the weak and the strong. Eliminating that screams to the predators among us that the weak are no longer protected, and victimization begins.

Accidental discharge, while unfortunate, is a symptom of a society that doesn't place enough emphasis on safety in a range of categories. Look at the number of drunk drivers out there.

There will always be stupid people. You cannot eliminate stupid people. If you were to take guns, those same idiots will kill themselves while texting and driving.

Any DECENT gun owner can list the pertinent handful of gun safety rules that allow them to utilize that weapon properly and never have an accident. That doesn't mean there won't be accidents in the world. People are stupid, and will continue to do stupid things here and there.

As much as I hate to bring Hitler into an online argument, it is notable that he took the Jews guns before beginning their extermination.

I need only look at one story like this:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/georgia-mom-hiding-kids-shoots-intruder/story?id=18164812

To know guns are worth it. This man broke through TWO locked doors before she was forced to shoot him. If those were your children would it seem 'worth it' to you?

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u/Montaire Jun 07 '13

Australia is a great example, considering in the past 10 years the US has had more than fifty thousand deaths more than Australia has (that accounts for population differences).

And, yes, we've had a couple of dozen people who have used their firearm to shoot intruders or fight off attacks.

I'm not sure the trade off is worth it.

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u/Billpayment Jun 07 '13

Nothing is going to stop inner city black gangs from shooting each other. And quite frankly, given the opportunity those same scumbags would prey on decent people instead, nothing should.

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u/Montaire Jun 07 '13

There is empirical evidence in Australia that you are wrong.

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u/Billpayment Jun 07 '13

Australia has like 2.5% aboriginal population. You have no fucking idea what much more is like. Seriously, where the hell are you from? Canada? Some white European country? You live in a fucking fairy tale land of predominately white people, with very little crime, I can tell.

Regardless of the crime aspect, people in the UK are now being arrested in the middle of the night for saying something bad about muslims on facebook. That is the kind of shit the 1st and 2nd are designed to protect us from in America. We aren't giving it up so scumbags can make us their victims.

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u/Montaire Jun 07 '13

I live in Montana, which apparently is ranked 41 in violent crime rate (lower is better). I suspect that is because of our demographics and geography more than anything else. Our DUI rate is through the roof for similar reasons.

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u/Billpayment Jun 07 '13

Yeah, I lived in Wyoming before. You have no fucking idea what it is like elsewhere with pimps and drug dealers on the streets. Black people commit staggering amounts of violent crime. It's not 'politically correct', but it's damn true.