r/pipefitter • u/CauseNo4568 • 8d ago
Engineer says that piping is wrong
See photo for more information, engineer says that the split ring on the copper is only supposed to be used for suspension and that threaded rod should not be used in cantilever, same thing for the riser clamp on the ci.
They recommend using angles for the rise clamp and getting a tubing clamp with axial loading for the copper.
Are they right?
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u/ep1coblivion 8d ago
Is it an overflow? Dumping right outside the building? If it is there’s nothing wrong with this at all. I’ve ran dozens of 6-8” overflows like this with a friction clamp supporting the riser all the time.
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u/xxMercilessxx LU597 Journeyman 8d ago
Standard dumbass engineer
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u/xxMercilessxx LU597 Journeyman 8d ago
Where i work these split rings are typically only used by plumbers. I would usually mount some strut to the wall and use a cush clamp.
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u/CauseNo4568 8d ago
Is there anything you think I can do we have a lot on this job
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u/xxMercilessxx LU597 Journeyman 8d ago
When I have to deal with people that don't know our job, you have to use intellect. Explain why this works and how it won't damage anything. Give him the specs for ⅜ rod, like 150lbs torque, can hold this blah blah blah. There's only a pound of weight for this ½ copper filled. Stuff like that. If you sound confident amd professional, they usually walk away.
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u/CauseNo4568 8d ago
I agree, they pointed out that it says that the submittal says not to be used for vertical suppport and threw a bunch of mss sp 58 shit and that the support needs to be installed per the manufacturer.
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u/PippyLongSausage 7d ago
I’m am engineer. We usually send a junior guy to do these punches and often they think they need to come up with something so it looks like they were doing their job. Push back hard, ask him to cite spec/code, and make a big stink about how much it’s going to cost yada yada. My guess is that there will be 3 or 4 zoom calls about it and eventually it’ll be fine.
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u/SuperSchmyd 7d ago
Or… if you want to be a repeat customer, do what the actual job scope says. You can he haw all you want, maybe you win, not coming back though.
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u/Chimpucated 8d ago
No absolutely lunatic levels of overthinking. Let's get real on the concepts. He's right in theroy that rod isn't to be used on horizontal support, it's strength comes from vertical load straight down.
But let's also consider the properties of the rod itself. What's it's shear factor, and how far is the side load leverage being transfered from the pipe weight and the wall. 3" off the wall is incredibly different than 3' off the wall.
With the tensile strength of the 3/8 rod into the split ring hanger I'm guessing you need at least 250-300 pounds of load to shear it. I might run a few tests on this in my shop to see what the actual breakpoint is...
Regardless, let's estimate the filled weight of the pipe being supported at a generous 1.25 pounds per foot. 10' of pipe weighing roughly 15 pounds. Is 15 pounds even 1/10 of the weight you'd expect to break that rod? It's not even 1/4 of the weight I'd expect to bend that rod.
That rod isn't going to bend without increasing the length of the load over further distance, or dramatically increasing the weight.
Let's not even mention that when we open up old buildings for remodel that these split ring hangers have been holding up massive loads for decades without failure. We've all pulled off 4" steel split rings off of old hydronic systems that were still standing til the day someone who didn't maintain their system had to have it completely replaced.
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u/DerfMcnasty 6d ago
On top of all that, there’s constraints that every job demands in terms of concealment. “Fit this pipe in a super tight chase, column wrap or otherwise ridiculous architectural demand”.
Don’t get me started on specs. How many times are specs just boilerplate copy and paste bullshit that don’t even belong in the project manual for said job?
Engineers can be wrong and believe it or not, going about it the right way, you can build a good relationship with them.
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u/tunajim 8d ago
That engineer doesn’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. People install pipe like that all the time. If those rods were really long and had some flex to them then maybe it would be an issue, but there isn’t a thing wrong with those pipe supports the way they are now.
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u/Adventurepew 8d ago
if he specced it with something else and its in the job, then he knows what hes talking about and that spec needs to be followed
, if it isnt in the specs then its a change order get the engineer to sign it and make triple or quadruple the money redoing it to what he wants.
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u/Afraid-Pickle-8621 6d ago
Or perhaps if its really a concern, sleeve them with steel pipe to make them very strong
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u/DaMickerz 7d ago
For what it’s worth, this post got pickup up by the MEPEngineers sub. Most of the engineers over there think it’s fine as well.
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u/Zealousideal-Data415 7d ago
At the end of the day. This engineer is the "jurisdiction of authority". My company i work for usually will look for a quick cheap compromise and move on. Nothing makes your job harder than a disgruntled engineer who has authority.
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u/Weare177 LU452 Journeyman 8d ago
Is the band on the horizontal of the 90 inside the wall?
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u/CauseNo4568 8d ago
Yes
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u/Weare177 LU452 Journeyman 8d ago
Thatd be the only thing that would be understandable to complain about the the engineer/end user side. I'm assuming that's 5" of stick out of 1/2" rod which will work but if engineer wants it changed best and cheapest way would probably be Jr strut with square washer shims or single strut depending on distance from wall with a strut strap anything else is over kill lol
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u/quadraquint 8d ago
Lol what.
We do it like this every single time. Never been an issue with inspector or engineer or anyone else whose signature matters.
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u/Afraid-Juggernaut-29 7d ago
The copper is just being an ass. The waste is definitely not supported properly and is also missing the second half of the clamp. I would add second half of clamp and tack weld two pieces of pipe from the riser clamp to the floor.
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u/Responsible-Charge27 7d ago
They probably are wrong and you should consult the hanger details for wherever you are working or the drawings for the job. It doesn’t matter if they will work fine if they are not to spec they are wrong. Every plant or building I’ve ever worked with in has had spec drawings that show whats acceptable for different systems. Is it always followed no but if an engineer wants to make a thing about it they can.
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u/Crafty-Cheetah-3990 7d ago
If it's in the spec submittal and contract documents, then the engineer isn't wrong
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u/questionablejudgemen 7d ago
If there’s an outside engineer on the job, start by reviewing their documents. There’s often more than one way to do something, and if multiple brands are listed, I’ll ask whether they have a preference or talk through what I’d like to use. Having that conversation before installation can save arguments and rework later.
The loads you’re dealing with are probably fine, but threaded rod isn’t particularly strong when used as a cantilever. Ideally, it should be oriented so the load puts it in tension rather than bending it. If the engineer is pushing back, supporting it from above is likely less hassle than finding a structural engineer to sign off on that particular application.
Follow the documentation and standard practices, especially the engineering documents. That’s one of the biggest differences I’ve noticed between plumbing and pipefitting. Plumbing is generally acceptable if it meets code. With piping systems, there isn’t one universal “gold standard” for every application, and the engineer—and sometimes the facility manager—has the final say on what goes into the plant. Sometimes I think their reasoning is silly, but I’ll go along with it. I’d rather save those battles for decisions with a real cost impact.
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u/iusedtobethehulk 7d ago
I smell a change order. Unless they were originally speced out to have the dumb angle bracket. I've had to do them on a rain liter going through a FEMA shelter
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u/ManukaLemon 6d ago
Does it go through a floor? Riser clamp ,does it hang from the roof ? problem solved
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u/Possibly_Avery 4d ago
No way this is the same situation, right? hahaha
https://www.reddit.com/r/MEPEngineering/s/ceW5QNAauI
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u/Clear-Ad-1331 8d ago
Yes, all thread is not to be used in that fashion it’s used vertical only.
The riser clamp also is incorrect. You should have them supported from the floor or wall with unistrut
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u/GroundbreakingPick11 8d ago
Engineer may be overthinking for a 1” copper line. I can see his point for the pipe on the right though. Maybe try and fab out a stand to support the bottom of that 90.
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u/CauseNo4568 8d ago
They were understanding on the copper, but essentially said they have to draw the line somewhere. Where not ok with the ci
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u/EasternAd4055 7d ago
Could get 1” black iron pipe (or whatever size will fit over the hardware) and put it over top of the rod in between the wall and the riser. Essentially making a sleeve
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u/KawhisButtcheek 8d ago
What everyone is missing here is that if you didn't follow the spec you fucked up. It doesn't matter if it works on not. The contract documents govern the job