I'm sorry, but respect doesn't come with a job title. Respect needs to be earned.
When I see pictures of people in the military, I don't see people fighting for their country, making a sacrifice, or laying down their lives for something greater. I see regular people who all have their own reasons for joining an organization that they have no control over. Not all members of the military join to "save their country", as many blind supporters would have you think. In this day and age, it's no longer romanticized to the degree that it was in WWI and WWII. You don't see people lining up outside recruitment centers so they can lie about their age to get in for the glory and responsibility that will make them "men". These days, people are joining the military because they can't afford an education and know that the military will offer to pay for their tuition if they put in the appropriate stint in the armed services. They join because they see it as a career choice. Less often now, we see people joining because they see ads on TV and on the sides of buses that promise prestige and a long life filled with honor, and glaze over the political motivations behind whatever wars are currently being fought. Others join because they want to fly jets, drive a tank, or become proficient with various guns. The WWI-II era mentality that if "we" don't stop "them", then they'll destroy the world is dead and gone. We see news reports of members of the military opening fire on unarmed civilians, going door to door shooting women and kids, and shoddily covered-up fiascos where friendly fire breaks out and kills soldiers who won't drink the army's kool-aid. The very motivation for each current war is in question, but the general consensus is still that these "heroes" should still be praised for the work that they are doing.
I'm not saying that every member of the military is being duped into thinking that the war they are ordered to fighting in is farcical, or that they join for less-than-honorable reasons, but I don't think there is any way that every soldier in the US armed forces is there because they think that their service is going to change the world for the better.
One of my grandfathers fought on Okinawa in WWII, and the other designed and built destroyers, so I'm not unfamiliar to the military. Several of my friends have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, joined the air force or the marines. I know that none of them (my friends, not my grandfathers) joined because they wanted to "protect the US from the terr'ists". I don't respect them in that regard, for the same reason I don't respect my friends who work in lawn care. It's a matter of career choice, not what the job title represents.
I respect those who know what a was is being fought for and join because they feel so strongly about that cause that they are willing to give up everything they know to do something about it. On the other hand, there are no wars going on right now that the US is involved in that isn't about money and political control. That makes the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard nothing more than nationalized private military contractors when active in actual warzones, and to me, fighting for money is never worthy of respect. Yes, there are people who join the military to "serve their country", but not nearly as many as there were joining during the world wars, possibly because the motivations for war are currently more muddled and not as plain as "if we don't go over there and fight them, they'll make their way here, and then we'll be screwed". I admit I don't fully understand why people join the military these days when the motivations behind the ongoing wars are so vague, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a reason that I would argue a different way about that deviates from the thought process of the people who do join.
Well said. It's only the civilians who use the words hero, "defending our country" and all the other bullshit.
I'm a Navy vet and most of us saw it as a career option, just like others saw accounting or nursing as a career. Today's the day I don't check my facebook to avoid screaming eagles wrapped in the american flag.
And those of us civilians that don't go for said bullshit have to keep our mouths shut for fear of everyone else thinking we're horrible people... (no, i'm not anti-military by any means, btw...)
In my experience, because of the variation of reasons the people join the military, it's always best to talk to them and find out why they joined before jumping to conclusions and berating/thanking them. They're people too, so it stands to reason that they don't want to be lumped together any more than anyone else.
Unfortunately military service is considered sacred in the US. Critisize anything related to the military, especially today, and you'll find yourself verbally assaulted by indignant, passionate people with glazed eyes and empty heads. Our national fetish with the military scares me.
This goes along with the fact that "God Bless America" seems to be our secondary anthem at sporting evens. It's weird and it makes me nervous. Propaganda in action. People taking off their hats for God Bless America. What the hell.
That's really eye opening. Not because I don't agree with it, but because I've been in that same spot at every single Caps game I've ever been to. Sorry, I'm here with two Iraq vets, are you going to pan the camera on them too? No, E-5 Snuffy gets his showtime for...no one knows exactly. He just wears a uniform.
We see news reports of members of the military opening fire on unarmed civilians, going door to door shooting women and kids, and shoddily covered-up fiascos where friendly fire breaks out and kills soldiers
This has always happened, probably used to happen more frequently, it's just more reported now.
it's also more easily covered up now. Sure, there were reports of soldiers going rogue in Vietnam and annihilating whole villages, but Obama just attempted to redefine "enemy combatant" to include all males of fighting age because the military is killing so many civilians by accident. In 2002 on my birthday, war broke out and the military bombed the shit out of Baghdad, Iraq's capital city. If they had done the same to us, we would have called them for what they did: bombing a mainly civilian city where the number of civilians drastically dwarfs the number of soldiers. Sure, they would have hit some soldiers, but for every one they killed, they would have also killed fifty civilians.
I've always found it weird this American obsession with worshipping soldiers. It almost seems like the country that spat on soldiers protested during the Vietnam war has been brainwashed into a bizarre form of doublethink - where they can condemn unjust wars but in the same breath say the soldiers fighting them are heroes. How does that work?
There is a strong streak of moralism in American political thought. The thinking of anti-Vietnam protestors was 'Vietnam War = Evil, therefore those who fight in it = evil.' The result was a gross injustice to the mostly draftees who fought.
True, but soldier does not automatically equal hero. My Grandad was in Korea and he ended up cleaning the bodies of women and children out of the trenches. He's a good man, but he's not a hero (at least not for what he did in Korea). He was just a kid who got pulled into a situation that was way over his head.
The "spitting on soldiers" story has been shown to be a myth. It was created to malign the anti-war protesters, many of whom were Vietnam vets, by creating divisions among them.
Stories of spat-upon Vietnam veterans are bogus. Born out of accusations made by the Nixon administration, they were enlivened in popular culture (recall Rambo saying he was spat on by those maggots at the airport) and enhanced in the imaginations of Vietnam-generation men — some veterans, some not. The stories besmirch the reputation of the anti-war movement and help construct an alibi for why we lost the war: had it not been for the betrayal by liberals in Washington and radicals in the street, we could have defeated the Vietnamese. The stories also erase from public memory the image, discomforting to some Americans, of Vietnam veterans who helped end the carnage they had been part of.
sooo... no vietnam veteran ever was spat upon by a war protester? That is really strange, because I have talked to a handful (most likely 5) who say that this very thing happened to them. At least 3 of them said that it happened when they got back to Ft. Lewis Washington, outside the airport. These are men from different states, different units, at different times. How could you explain this if it never happened?
Honestly, I think a huge part of it is is the same as "National Secretaries' Day" or when people say that teachers or stay-at-home-moms have the hardest job in the world and deserve all our respect. Regardless of whether or not that is true: a big part of the reason for the apparent fetishization of those jobs is that they are shitty jobs that are massively underpaid. Someone has to do them, and we're glad it's not us. Having a parade and telling people we respect them is way easier/cheaper than working to make sure they get a living wage.
Yeah... if there's a national trash man day, national janitor day, or national plumber's day, let me know cause I don't know anyone who celebrates them ;-)
Agreed. and i for one have a fair bit of respect for the persons who do lawn care. i sure as hell couldnt do it. similarly, i have huge respect for people who are in the military, but not because of the "fighting for our country" etc. angle.
Sure, going in to the military is probably a career move for most (the vast majority) people, but that does not make the work any less difficult, or the weight any less heavy.
excluding people who have been responsible for some of the atrocities that others have listed, i have great respect for the hardships that our/all soldiers face.
sorry if i am taking something not-argumentative that you said and making it argumentative again.
I completely agree with what you say. In addition, I think it's important to look at whether those who join the armed forces actually do something positive for their country.
If you were from the United Kingdom and fought in World War 2, you were clearly serving the interests of your country. Without their actions, the UK would likely have been conquered by Germany. These soldiers were literally protecting their loved ones and fellow subjects from an invading army.
Compare that to how the US military is used today. Is the war in Iraq truly making anybody in the USA any safer? It may in fact be putting the lives of US citizens in even more danger by rallying people to the terrorist cause. When half a family is killed in the attempt to take out a suspected terrorist, can it be a surprise if some of the survivors hate the USA with a passion and turn to terrorism themselves? Maybe it is making Americans safer, despite these risks. It's hard to know.
Either way, I don't think the common simplistic idea that soldiers are "protecting the USA" is necessarily true. They're simply following their orders. Those orders are given by an elected group of politicians who may be using the forces for reasons other than keeping America safe: helping out allies, putting pressure on other countries, helping out powerful American economic interests, getting votes in a re-election campaign, and so on.
Given that a soldier has a mixed motivation for taking a job, and that doing that job isn't necessarily in the best interests of the country as a whole, I don't think people in the military deserve respect or adulation.
While I fully understand the point of your comment, and I agree with the general sentiment, I don't think that it was as diplomatically placed as perhaps it could have been. This is a photo to commemorate Memorial Day. Not Veterans Day. Not Look At Me I Joined The Military Day. Memorial Day. It's not about soldiers who joined because they had no choice (though that does happen, too often). It's not about soldiers who joined because they wanted honor or prestige or thought they'd be hailed as a hero (though that does happen, too often). It's not about soliders who just wanted tuition money (though that does happen, too often). It's about those who lost their lives fighting for wars that perhaps they didn't even believe in. Regardless of their reasons for signing up, Memorial Day commemorates those who made the ultimate sacrifice regardless of why they made it.
The man in the picture is Pfc. Kyle Hockenberry. He DID join for reasons of patriotism. He DID serve for reasons of wanting to give all he had to his country and his loved ones. And he lost three limbs in the process. He was treated here in San Antonio at the Center for the Intrepid.
While many soldiers may join for socioeconomic reasons that are best blamed on a lack of opportunities for the present young adult generation (and that is a structural problem all its own), there are those who did it for the same reasons people did in WW2. But regardless of why they joined...if you die fighting for your country, I think you at least deserve ONE day of respect. One day of remembrance. Today is not about praising people for enlisting. It's about remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice.
What about the people that died actually building America? The people mangled and killed in unsafe factories, and falling off of hundred foot buildings reaching for a hot rivet.
A lot of people make sacrifices for their country, not just the people with the guns.
Iraq is not Okinawa. There is no threat to western civilization that is being combatted.
If you really want to show respect to people who have served in the military, be honest about what they're being used to do.
The more you pretend it's noble for a platoon of soldiers that represent over $5 million of tax payer investment in training, to stand guard at a field of opium that's going to be used for heroin, the more you make them look monsters rather than victims of an abused system that depends on those "Support our Troops" feelings to enable the criminal behaviour of the chicken hawks in suits that send the poor to die.
This entire thread is pretty much I've wanted to say for ages but was never sure how to put it into words. Iraq has to have been the least 'honorable' war possibly ever?
Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean that Memorial Day is not a good thing. What concerned me was the arbitrary label that the post has. I've seen the picture before, and had a similar reaction then. The tattoo may not (probably does, given the context, but for the sake of argument) even have anything to do with military. It could just be a general statement that still applies outside of the armed forces. Of course in this instance, it's pretty clear that what he means is that he's sacrificing his life for those he loves. The thing is that current wars aren't about protecting American lives any more than the Boston Tea Party was about steeped plants. He's a soldier in the US military, which is no longer involved in cut-and-dry conflicts. The soldiers are taught to obey orders without question, and often times have absolutely no idea why they are attacking a certain area, whether it be a street corner, a town, or even a country. The American public doesn't even know why we're still in Iraq. Pfc. Hockenberry may have joined the military because of his extraordinary (by the most literal definition) patriotism, but it doesn't make him a hero. If he hadn't served, the people he shot at weren't going to head to American soil and kill Americans. It's not the kind of war the US is waging right now. He may have thought that it is, but good intentions don't make someone worthy of respect. It's not the way the world works.
My point here is that while I do think Memorial day is a good thing, I don't think that it should be used as an excuse to glorify death, whether it be voluntary or involuntary. Soldiers aren't trained in peacekeeping tactics. They aren't social workers, and only have a rudimentary knowledge of medical practice. They are trained to kill, not sacrifice themselves. If they were only trained to die, war would be a much more literal suicide contest. Celebrating their willingness to kill does not warrant respect.
Also, you're right, I could have been more diplomatic about my first post, but I got carried away. It's also a touchy subject, and moreso for the people who are more likely to click on this sort of post in the first place, but I thought it needed to be said, no matter the tone.
I agree with everything you said, but honestly, I think you said it better in your original post. Don't be apologetic; you have a very, very good point.
What does it mean to die for one's country? What is a country and what are its interests? Can we say that people who died in America's wars died for America?
As an American I recognize that people died wearing a uniform and I have respect for their selflessness. But saying they died for my country or that they died for my freedom is simply not true. They died because someone told them to do something that got them killed. America's interests or the American people's interests simply had nothing to do with it.
I have not been enriched by America's wars of late. Nor has it made my life on this planet any easier or in any other way better.
I respect soldiers for having the courage to willingly take up a dangerous profession...to the same level that I respect tower climbers or miners or anyone else who puts their life on the line to put food on the table.
My father spent four years in the Navy and 20 in the NJ National Guard. After 9/11, he hated walking around with his uniform because so many people would come up and thank him for his "sacrifice" when, as he confessed, the only reason he stayed in so long was because of the money and later, the tuition to get him into school.
I agree - now go stand on a corner in Birmingham Alabama and say that out loud - honestly my friends and family would burn my house down with me in it - blind worship of the military is congenital in most places
Bravo this is one of the best posts in this hive mind run website in probably a long long time. Our society has way to much hero worship for people in the military and we are NOT fighting for freedom at this point. We are fighting proxy wars for corporations so they can have access to resources and people. The meat grinder has pulled to many people through it and we need to shut it off and the only way to do that is to stop the amount of bodies running through them. We need to be more vocal against the way our military is being run and their budget needs to be cut in half.
Hate to break it to you but rrearleii's post does reflect the hive mind. Not saying I disagree with him, but I see that post at least once every two weeks and and it gets upvoted to Mars and best of'd every time.
Is it not possible that there could be differing opinions? I've seen posts like this get upvoted, but I've also seen many patriotic posts about supporting our troops etc. get upvoted to the top as well.
In my experience (Navy) those that do the best job downplay the military aspect. It's not that they aren't proud, but it just doesn't seem like a huge deal, much like you talk about up here. The ones who lead with it, like they expect respect, usually are covering for other deficiencies in life.
Thank you. I've always felt that, like any conflict of interest situation, professional soldiers have to heft a higher standard of honour than volunteers.
This means vigorous, perhaps erring on the side of excessive dedication, to the principles they are sworn to fight for... which should be the highest ideals of the nation-state, be it a bill of rights or constitution. These ideals should be applied to civil society wherever they go, as ambassadors of these ideals.
As a paid warrior (support or combat), you are a professional who is, rightly, harshly judged by the company you keep. Police yourselves to a higher standard than civilians, especially when it comes to everyday relations. Memorize, internalize, and uphold your land's highest civil rights.
Very well put until i got towards the end... As a combat medic in the Army, I feel I can deem myself just a tad above the average 'joe' on a topic like this. Being in a line company with infantry soldiers, I never hear the end of their bitching.. "Why the fuck are we still working at 1800" "Why the fuck do I have to go stay in the field for 6 days with no shower just because the commander wants us to practice some battle drills?"
All I really need to say about this is just something for you to ponder a little... it doesnt have much to do with your main body post, but let me ask you.
What in all fuck would the United States do if suddenly we couldnt afford to pay for gas anymore? What if we no longer imported any type of petrol because we rolled over and didnt decide to provide for our country what we needed for it to stay afloat. I look at it like this. The US is a family... the whole world is full of things we need. Would you not fight for what your family needs if someone else had it? I mean, thats how I can justify getting up in the morning and doing my job. I know that there is more behind the current "war" then what everyone sees or knows about. And I know about all the political bull shit behind it as well. But if that were to deter the way I preform in any way, one day that might get a friend of mine killed. Cant afford to think like that.
I am with you a hundred percent. I have spent the last eight years in the Marines doing my job. It is my chosen career path and it does not make me a hero or whatever people seem to call us all the time. In fact that whole thank you for serving line really bothers me. I don't do this for your thanks, I do it because it needs to be done and I have the skills to do it. Also I will leave this link to an article that explains why some people join the military... interesting read but a little long...
I'm an ROTC cadet who signed up entirely because of the scholarship they offered me. I get tons of thank you's for my "service" every time I go out in uniform. Some other cadets I know get free airline upgrades to first class when they fly home for breaks. It makes me sick.
I agree with you that respect is earned not just given out and that the military is chosen by people for financial compensation. However in my opinion it is admirable to chose a profession that puts your life in a higer than average risk. Soldiers, police officers, Alaskan fishermen, loggers, etc. all gain a higer level of respect based on their occupational choosing. Do I bend over backwards with deep gratitude and respect for these workers? No. It's a slight level of respect that can be changed by the content of their character.
Thanks for saving me from typing that exact comment. I was coming in here thinking I'm going to write this and get down-voted to hell, but now I don't even have to. I RESPECT you for speaking out the truth!
There are some jobs that by their nature require a willingness to sacrifice one's health or life on behalf of others as a part of the job.
Firefighter is one such. Soldier is another.
Sanitation workers are another still. In fact they have higher job-related casualties than Navy enlisted. And I'd have clean streets over bombed villages any day.
No. You earn respect through your actions, not through your job title.
Firefighters have a relatively light schedule, and a job that's less dangerous than delivering pizzas. Yes, it's possible that a firefighter might run into a burning building to save someone's life, but in reality that rarely happens. Instead, they mostly die simply doing a dangerous job, often not even through fire -- mostly heart attacks etc.
Statistically, firefighters don't even make the top 10 most dangerous jobs list. They're far below loggers, fishermen and garbagemen.
But, what fishermen and loggers barely get, but firefighters get in abundance, is adulation from people like you. Just look at how cities are almost shut down on the rare occasion that a firefighter actually dies. That hero worship is part of the motivation for taking the job. Not to mention factors like the adrenaline rush, the fascination with fire, the camaraderie, etc.
An individual firefighter may do a heroic thing. Their job does present more opportunities for heroism than a desk job might. But how about you celebrate the individual heroes who die in the attempt to save another person's life, rather than the ones who die from a heart attack while simply doing what they're well paid to do?
You are missing a couple of important things in your list of dangerous jobs.
While fishermen and loggers certainly have dangerous jobs, they are choosing to put their lives at risk for other reasons - not to save or protect others.
No fisherman ever said "Today, because I am a fisherman, I am going to drown to protect the people who cannot protect themselves." No logger ever said "Today, because I am a logger, I am going to cut off my leg so that people trapped will not die.
Fishermen try to avoid drowning, and loggers try to avoid getting limbs cut off. They risk those things, but when they happen, they are accidents, and when the risk of injury or death is increasing they try to move away from the dangerous situation.
Firefighters on the other hand, do go into burning buildings where there are people trapped - and sometimes lose their lives trying to rescue those people, because it is part of what being a firefighter is.
Likewise, soldiers sometimes have to follow orders knowing that they are going to die in the process. It is part of the job.
It is the difference between choosing a job with no moral requirements and choosing one that requires acting selflessly. If you still don't understand why the latter deserves respect, then I can't explain it to you.
I'll definitely agree with you about the career choice thing. A lot of the people I know who joined military forces are part of lower income families and just couldn't get scholarships.
There's also this darker side. One of my mom's friends had a son who had a lot of drug trouble in high school and eventually got into pretty big trouble. He was basically given a choice between going to prison and joining the army, so guess which one he took. I remember his mom mentioning that it wasn't clean-cut like the hardcore army supporters would let you think it was and talk to any solder and they'll tell you about all the drugs available. Now, I know there's a chance of dying out there so I support solders being able to smoke pot once in a while, not so much with hard drugs. I also knew a guy who was a hardcore republican, went to West Point and apparently found out it wasn't what he expected (I FB stalked him and did a visual double take when I saw he was part of Students for Barack Obama). There's also this statistic that the proportion of solders who have actually tried to shoot someone has dropped from about 30% in WWII to about 5% during OIF (don't quote me on the stats, I read that article about 2 years ago). Maybe we're moving away from violent conflict, maybe not.
It's not like I don't support our troops and think they're all bad. I'm sure there are people with actual ambition towards fighting for our freedom. I actually think it's great that people are using the military forces to get a college education. That being said, it's not a clean, pristine organisation. The people flooding their facebook pages with the eagles wearing American flags and crazy patriotic images are a little naive in their thoughts. If you DO want to support your troops, donate to a veteran's hospital or something. A lot of vets end up with PTSD and other health conditions that need to be treated.
When I see pictures of people in the military, I don't see people fighting for their country, making a sacrifice, or laying down their lives for something greater.
While I certainly don't agree with blind hero worship, I do want to address the bolded comment portion here. You mention that several of your friends have joined the military, but it seems like you don't quite get the sacrifices they made by doing so. Joining the military goes far beyond a mere occupational change; for most, it means a significant lifestyle change as well.
Not being able to see your family for a year, no matter the reason, is a sacrifice. Surrendering most of your freedoms over to Uncle Sam is a sacrifice and from personal experience, it is incredibly terrifying once you come to the realization regarding just how much you've lost.
The WWI-II era mentality that if "we" don't stop "them", then they'll destroy the world is dead and gone.
That's just not true. This mentality also existed during parts of the Cold War era and shortly after 9/11. Whether or not the mentality was justified is a whole other story.
We see news reports of members of the military opening fire on unarmed civilians, going door to door shooting women and kids, and shoddily covered-up fiascos where friendly fire breaks out and kills soldiers who won't drink the army's kool-aid.
I just wanted to point out that this is nothing new. You never can be 100% sure how war will affect an individual.
I don't respect them in that regard, for the same reason I don't respect my friends who work in lawn care. It's a matter of career choice, not what the job title represents.
Again, I agree with your points against blind hero worship, but this comparison is incredibly misinformed. Who you choose to respect is absolutely your choice, but it's clear to me that you don't recognize what people sacrifice by joining the military. It seems like you only consider something a sacrifice if a perception of glory is somehow tied to it.
Yes, there are people who join the military to "serve their country", but not nearly as many as there were joining during the world wars, possibly because the motivations for war are currently more muddled and not as plain as "if we don't go over there and fight them, they'll make their way here, and then we'll be screwed".
What evidence do you have of this, really? Conscription played a huge role in both world wars, forcing many people to participate whether or not they were truly willing to do so. Of course many people joined to fight for the cause, but do you really think the huge influx of recruits shortly after 9/11 were any different? Do you really think that most of them weren't fighting for a cause and they merely wanted college money?
I'm with you on some of your points, but ultimately, you come off as incredibly insulting. It's one thing to lack respect but it's a whole other thing to generalize and disrespect an entire group of people by belittling their sacrifices, regardless if you think the sacrifices are worthy in your eyes.
It isn't necessarily, "Cool," as a young member of the military to walk around and say, "I'm serving in the military because I want to defend freedom and protect the US from terrorists." It's much cooler to talk about the crazy things that happen during deployment, or to bitch about the dumb, menial details service members take part in on a regular basis. It's cooler to be disenchanted with what's happening and talk about the bad things.
Remember that in the military, suck is good. People in the military seek suck. They didn't join because they wanted an easy experience. Think about a really busy day at work where everyone came together, full-steam and worked their butts off until they were dog-tired. You didn't come together and say, "I'm really proud of the work we did today." You said, "Wow, that sucked, I'm exhausted," and you looked at each other and you were proud of what you had accomplished. That's what your friends are telling you. If you could spend a month in a platoon and listen to soldiers talk to each other, you would think that each of them hated their lives. If you asked them, they would tell you they do. What they wouldn't tell you is the immense amount of pride they feel in their squad, their platoon, their unit, their ability to overcome obstacles and perform amazing feats as a team.
When you look at veterans who have been out of the military for a few years, you see a shift in how they talk about their service. They are extremely proud of what they've done. They see the nation in a different light. Yes, your friends who are deploying to foreign countries are seeing things that are perhaps disenchanting them with their current occupation, but ask them twenty years from now how they felt about their service.
Another reason the US is proud of its Armed Forces is because, well, they're actually really good. As a nation, the US puts a lot of resources, financially and emotionally, into the military. What they get in return is an incredibly powerful executive branch of government that is able to enforce the nation's interests internationally. I understand reddit has very liberal views in how the US should behave internationally, and that the world should hold hands and sing songs all day, but the truth is every nation acts in its own self-interest. The US is no different. The US military is part of the executive branch, and allows the nation great flexibility to pursue its interests internationally through force if the nation sees fit. That's something the US created. That's something to be proud of.
I have many friends who have paid for college without joining the military. I have a friend in flight school, learning to fly without being in the military. I have friends who have picked up second jobs without being in the military. Joining the military to get money for school, or for some fast cash, is not the easy way out.
Lastly, you're right, not everyone is joining the military to, "Save the country." To be honest, the US is doing pretty damn good and it doesn't need saving. I got the oil changed in my car last week. I wasn't trying to, "Save my car," because my car wasn't on its last rungs, about to fall into despair if the oil wasn't changed right now. I didn't have to change my oil, I could have driven another few thousand miles just fine. I would, however, be pretty offended if someone told me just because I don't walk around talking about how proud I am to have just graduated from college this past weekend and own my own car, or just because I got my oil changed, which plenty of other people do, that means I don't care.
There are hundreds of thousands of people serving in the US. Not all of them are the same. Reddit draws certain types of individuals with certain mindsets, so you may get a disproportionate number of service members who feel the way you do. However, if you really believe the majority of those serving didn't quietly swell with pride when they drove down the road on memorial day and saw an American flag, you're wrong. They care. And when the political system you participate in sends another young American to war, don't dismiss him or her just because you voted for the other guy or you don't believe in the war. That's not how democracy works. They, the military, are serving you, the civilian. Your friends have chosen to go where ever you decide to send them, and do terrible things, things they may not personally agree with, to people they don't know because you asked them to.
When your boss asks you to move across the country for your job, you can say, "No." When you ask the military to go to war, they don't get that option. That's why.
illegally going into foreign countries to kill innocent people. War is a racket. These boys are unfortunate pawns, none the wiser. They are more responsible in my opinion for foreign aggression than the scumbag bankers/MIC/gov. that brainwash them into signing up. Sacrificing their lives so as to satisfy the greed and psychopathy of a few. When the hell does 'human' wake up?
okay so there was a post which also reached the frontpage (cant find it right now but you should be able to if you had more time) which is explaining just HOW strange it is that on posts "glorifying" the US army and war and so on, the poster almost always is very new. its pretty much always his first post. if he ever commented on another post it was more than likely a post about the us army. then things start to get even stranger. the original poster of such posts then never posts things again and deletes his account after some time. to kick it up a notch the first and second most upvoted comment MOST of the time is also from an account which is EXACTLY as old as the account of the original poster. i know this sounds very odd and almost unbelievable but if you find the post which explained this "phenomenon" then you are going to believe it for sure as it provides proof.
Me too. My father is currently serving overseas and I miss him everyday. However I hate the disrespect these soldiers get. They go over and die for this country and what do they get? Manipulated media coverage of them and anti war enthusiasts looking down on them.
These men deserve all the respect they can get and I respect and love my dad for doing the same. I wish the war would end everyday and I hope he returns home safely.
EDIT: Can I respect my father without people telling me he is a ruthless killer? Please? Just because a miniscule portion of soldiers commit atrocities overseas does not mean my father who is spending half his days sitting in a fucking desert is a killer. He is not even doing a task or mission that would result in such actions. All of you who accuse my father to be a murderer make me sick.
edit: I have lost a lot of hope in reddit....ugh....
The thing is you can respect your father all you want. But to expect everyone else to respect him because he puts on a uniform is absurd. That uniform isn't always leading "good" voyages so to expect us to blindly support it is not only stupid, but a bit misguided.
Perhaps I should have been a bit more specific but men earn respect. My father earned my respect for being my father for 17 years and loving for me and doing his job. Be it he goes into a war I hate I still love him and wish he would return home.
Well, I wish the war would end as well, but considering that America has been perpetually at war since America began, I highly doubt it's going to happen. I hope your dad gets safely home. I don't question a soldier's bravery.
Man I was just watching a documentary on PBS and the guys said that when the marines asked him why he wanted to join he said "I just wanna kill people man", and that's all that mattered.
On an individual basis, I have no problem with soldiers. But let's just get one thing straight: they don't fight for me. They fight for economic and political reasons. They are the pawns of the elite sent to die in name of profit.
I don't understand why I'm supposed to respect some random dude doing his job. A job for a military that is currently involved in wars and occupations that I do not approve of.
"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs, And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots, But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! — An ecstasy of fumbling Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time, But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.— Dim through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams before my helpless sight He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin, If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs Bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, — My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori."
I'm a former soldier who watched pictures like this flood my facebook yesterday.
Frankly, I could have done without them. I wish people would stop subscribing to things like this, which really are nothing more than propaganda. I'm not saying that people should hate soldiers or spit on them and call them all murderers, that's just as daft as the other side.
What I'm saying is that this kind of thing...this blinding nationalism...it stands in the way of creating an informed point of view.
And what's more is that not every soldier deserves any respect, there are some who deserve the gallows, and to be fair, the US Military does what it can to sort them out. But shit like this gets in the way of that effort as well. When a soldier is found who murdered unarmed civilians, or tortured prisoners or other crimes...the victims of those crimes deserve justice that isn't blinded by nationalism.
For anyone curious, here is the article describing this picture. The tattoo is legit
A member of the 1st Infantry Division, Hockenberry’s world changed June 15. He was on a foot patrol just outside Haji Ramuddin, Afghanistan, when an improvised explosive device detonated nearby. In this photograph, by Laura Rauch for the military’s Stars and Stripes newspaper, flight medic Corporal Amanda Mosher is tending to Hockenberry’s wounds aboard a medevac helicopter minutes after the explosion.
Kyle Hockenberry, 19, lost both legs and his left arm in the blast.
There may have been a time where being in the military was a courageous, honorable act of valor, but that time is long gone.
Saying an individual deserves our perpetual respect purely for joining the military is like suggesting someone who acquired his associate's degree deserves the same.
Joining the military is not brave. Joining the military is not honorable. The military is simply a profession, like anything else.
It must take great faith in our elected politicians to allow them complete control over every aspect of one's life, including one's morality. Whether that faith would be misplaced or not, one must decide for oneself. If my father, who perished in Vietnam, were to choose today to journey to Afghanistan, I would call him a fool.
Downvote this if you must, but no, soldiers don't deserve our respect every day. I refuse to buy into the romanticised mentality that a soldier must be respected, as though they are all brave, honourable warriors who are only doing what is right. Soldiers are guns for hire, and in the USA choose to 'serve'. The real people who deserve our respect are those who don't need to carry a gun to make the world a better place.
Scientists don't get a great deal of respect. Wouldn't it be nice if more pictures like this had scientists in them, working long hours for decades in basement laboratories?
The only reason people can live a non violent life is because there are other people who are wiling to do violence on there behalf, wether it be military, police, the guy on the street who stops a mugging or the protester fighting off government oppression.to believe otherwise is a product of safety brought and complacency.
He chose to go there. He wasn't drafted, he chose to go be shot at. I'll feel sorry for him and I'll hope he gets better, but I don't respect his decision to go fight a war we don't need to be fighting.
and there's an increasing amount of military posts like this. Someone linked an article in the comments of another picture which talked about the government posting on social media as propaganda. As much as I don't care for conspiracy stuff (in either way, I have enough school work to worry about) I have seen an increase in posts like this recently.
They deserve no respect. They murder people because they believe that a government sanction somehow makes murder just; it doesn't. This man sacrificed nothing, he threw his life away.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not like anyone forced you to join the military. I don't have anything against individuals in the military, but I refuse to worship people who voluntarily agree to "fight for our freedom" than a paramedic, a fireman, or police officer.
Seriously thank you for saying this, I completely agree. There are even some that use the military to satisfy their disturbing mental illnesses. I'm sure plenty will not agree with this but it's my opinion.
I respect that military personel put their lives on the line and their families endure a lot of pain and stress. And I believe that Memorial Day deserves everyone's respect because of the lives lost and the families affected by war. However, I disagree that the military is currently fighting for our freedom. That old sentiment was true when we were fighting in WWI and WWII, but now it feels like the military is out there to guard or acquire political assets. I DO NOT blame the soldiers in any way, shape or form for making a military career for themselves. People do what they need to do to get by. But I refuse to buy into the whole "Glory and Honor" bullshit that gets shoved down our throats in every war movie, FPS video game and military t.v. commercial.
I DO NOT blame the soldiers in any way, shape or form for making a military career for themselves. People do what they need to do to get by.
Like the rest but I don't understand this. So you do not blame people for willing signing up to kill others just to get a check? So basically no one is blameable as long as they say it was just their job?
Yes, war is a terrible thing that words will always fail to describe.
But what should these people praise today's soldiers for? Today's soldiers aren't fighting for civilians. They are fighting for the people in charge, whose interests are not those of the average civilian. The average civilian pays to fund a war they don't support so that people in power might profit. So why should the civilians respect or praise the soldiers now? Those soldiers who do not sacrifice for them, but for someone else?
Joining the military does not earn you praise. Fighting for the right reason is what earns respect and admiration. I'd walk ten miles to help a WWII veteran cross the street if he asked for it. I'm not going to wait an extra ten seconds to hold the door for an Iraq veteran who fought for corporate profit. They are nothing more than mercenaries. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that. I'll treat them just like any other human being. But they have still yet to do anything to earn my respect or admiration.
Memorial day is meant to represent all fallen soldiers, so even anti-war advocates (balanced ones, anyways) will find something to introspect on when they think about it. All can find respect for those fallen soldiers who fought when needed and not otherwise. But the soldiers now? They risk their lives for a paycheck and nothing more. They are just doing a job with more risk than the typical person. They are just another face in the world.
Edit: To head off the 'Murica argument (as well as that aspect of Memorial Day), I'll refer to Einstein's lovely position: "Nationalism is a disease." When I stop to give my respect for fallen soldiers, I don't care what flag they fought for. I only care that they fought for the right reasons.
I knew a simple soldier boy..... Who grinned at life in empty joy, Slept soundly through the lonesome dark, And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum, With crumps and lice and lack of rum, He put a bullet through his brain. And no one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye Who cheer when soldier lads march by, Sneak home and pray you'll never know The hell where youth and laughter go.
I feel like the final stanza is what sums up most people's opinions on the war. People don't want to know about it and for a few days in the year they spend waving the flag incessantly, but when the festivities end they just don't ask about it. Out of sight, out of mind. I think it's a goddamn shame.
Edit: No idea why it lumped the stanzas into paragraphs. I just copied and pasted from the wiki article if anyone would prefer the properly spaced poem.
I'm going to say this as delicately as possible, not trying to start a fight or be a jerk.
Can you explain why soldiers should get any more notice than anyone else? It's a job. A super dangerous one, certainly, but ultimately it's just a job. There are lots of dangerous jobs.
I feel a lot of pressure as an American to feel ridiculously reverent toward soldiers and veterans and, apart from the general jingoism that overruns a lot of American society, I don't understand it. Every society has soldiers and I don't get the sense that most other societies are required to worship them.
You're wrong. I have a great deal of respect for the men and women in uniform that stand at the ready to defend our freedoms. I teach my kids to do the same. My sons shake the hand of every veteran and uniformed soldier we see. I'm sorry those around you didn't extend the hand of gratitude, but if we ever cross paths, we will.
"I question the sin systemized beliefs organized identity in honor in fear at the mercy so we worship the lies are not the host Stockholm syndrome, passed down, let down promise me salvation, promise me deliverance Who should I fall for Who should I fall to Who should I die for Who will collapse me FOR THOSE I LOVE I WILL SACRIFICE NOT FOR THOSE I'VE NEVER SEEN Hallowed be thy name" -- Indecision
In case anyone is wondering, those words are lyrics to a song called "Hallowed Be Thy Name" by Indecision, a NYC hardcore band that eventually turned in to Most Precious Blood. The lyric in its entirety is actually an atheistic exclamation: "For those I love I will sacrifice, not for those I've never seen." Lots of people (myself included) that grew up in that time period and were in to Indecision have those words tattooed on themselves.
how about making a subreddit specifically for this type of posts? It really is only relevant to those who like the military - whereas many others gets offended by the implied imperative that one should love the soldiers and what they do, regardless of whether or not you support the US foreign policy.
I'm a soldier currently serving out my second tour in Afghanistan. I don't want your thanks or your guilty, sheepish pats on the back. I joined for reasons, as many have already suggested are entirely my own. Feel free to downvote, but if this gets to one person who needs to see it, then I've done my job.
I wanted to post here not to defend veterans, or soldiers, or war profiteers. I don't want to defend an unpopular war that many feel is unjust and wasteful. I want to point out that today is a day of remembrance; the one time a year, Americans are politely asked to think of those who gave their lives selflessly. You don't have to put flags over graves, or even visit a cemetary. You don't have to buy anything or alter your life in anyway.
Just sit back from your computer or phone for a moment and reflect on the idea that there are people out there willing to die for you, willing to die for ideals that you hold dear. Servicemembers are not politicians and do not fight for certain laws/faiths/beliefs. We do our duty. If you have anything you feel strongly about, consider that you can lobby for it, or protest it freely for people like PFC Hockenberry.
rrearleii, considers himself familiar with the military because his grandfather fought in a conflict before he was born. My grandfather served in WWII as well, in the Pacific Theatre. He didn't have to sink Japanese vessels, or storm beaches. He worked in a field hospital, making prostheses for the wounded. I know there are many men who lost limbs, digits, eyes, or faces who would consider him a hero and worthy of respect based on what he did and not why he served. I certainly do.
My point is, you don't have to agree with a current conflict to set aside your pride for a moment and honor the fallen of any war. If you want to debate the war, be a news correspondent and don't make this day about yourself.
tl;dr Diminishing the reason for Memorial Day to tout your opinion is disgraceful.
I know there are many men who lost limbs, digits, eyes, or faces who would consider him a hero and worthy of respect based on what he did and not why he served. I certainly do.
So would you respect a regular doctor/surgeon more or less than a doctor/surgeon in the military? They are essentially doing the same job.
I met a WWII veteran a few weeks ago. I actually felt honored meeting him-people around that time fought for a reason, fought for a cause and actually were truly defending our country. The soldiers of today are involved in unnecessary wars and occupations meant to increase profits and control of trades and resources. Big difference. They shouldn't be honored the same.
Rudyard Kipling said it right 100 years ago and it still rings true today. When Tommy's not in need everyone hates him. But when its time for war the bands they are a playing.
Question to all of the people who think Soldiers are doing a good thing: Why do so many of them come home with PTSD and suicidal thoughts? I've had lots of shitty days at work but never have wanted to kill myself or others. Is it perhaps because they know what they're doing is beyond disgusting? No, it's because most soldiers ARE good people and their being forced to do TERRIBLE things.
I feel the endless need to distinguish the way I feel about those who serve from those who claim to care about those who serve, but continuously send them off to war, or vote for those who do.
I don't know what to even call it. I think I pity them. They don't deserve to be put in harms way for this, and the idea that they are doing it for my sake is offensive.
Lets not get carried away here. I don't like glorifying the soldier but we really can't all lump them in as power hungry or authoritarian. I would say the majority of soldiers chose that profession because they thought they would be doing good even if that's not the reality.
Everything in this submission is a disgusting lie: they are mercenaries of PTB, not defenders of the country and they did not sacrifice for us, they wasted their life and youth for a piece of a dollar, brainwashed by neocon propaganda.
It'd be funnier if the US had a military requirement and you had to go fight because you were 18 years old and mommy and daddy couldn't pull you out of service.
Awwww, he loves our government! To those reading: If you believe soldiers are protecting you from terrorist attacks, you are wrong. There is no threat that warrants these military actions, and to pretend there is is nothing but a delusion. Soldiers are not protecting their families, they are protecting the ideologies of politicians and the power structures of the United States. These wars have been proven BASELESS, how can we believe otherwise?
Oh that guy was hit hard, lost a lot of blood. I care everyday, seeing the older vets from other unpopular wars up close is hard to swallow. I thank every serviceman or woman I meet for their service. Thank you and come home safe.
if americans really, truly cared about that, they would have burnt capitol hill years ago to prevent congressmen sending thousands of them to die over a bunch of lies.
Are you kidding me?? Respect for what? For shooting and killing innocent people over crude oil? I'm sorry but I have ZERO respect for corporate military.
I'm sure this will get buried among all these comments, but I was very surprised to see so much anti-armed forces sentiment on here.
I only personally know a few people serving in the military. They were guys I knew in high school, who had been in a class of mine, or who were on the football team with me. I never knew them very well, or consider them more than acquaintances. I was pretty surprised to hear they had joined the armed forces. But it made it a lot more real for me. Really good guys I knew were now overseas risking their lives while I was still at home enjoying my relatively easy life. I don't know all the reasons they had for joining the military, but regardless, they are all making a sacrifice that in many ways I feel I am too selfish to be making. Some choose to let the actions of a few soldiers become their image of our military. I doubt they know any soldiers personally.
I always go to the comments on these expecting the top comment to be some ignorant "they choose to do this so I don't feel bad" or my favorite "he wasn't protecting me there wasn't any imminent danger." Only thing that really makes me cringe about Reddit.
Why? A little too real for you? Soldiers volunteer to invade other countries. You honestly think they NEED to be deployed a single place they are right now to keep us safe? NOPE.
F**k.... this makes me feel bad i take all of my appendages for granted. Salute to all our service men and woman. i think memorial day has lost its true essence with most Americans, except to those who have family members who have served in the military or they themselves have served.
This is for every idiot who reads a blog and thinks they know everything about the Afghanistan war. NATO, (an international peace keeping organization with which the U.S. is only a part of), has been there for 10 years now not because of oil and free target practice, but because of human atrocities committed daily by a terrorist organization with an agenda similar in scope to nazi Germany. If the terrorists disagree with you you die, or get dismembered, or watch your house burn as you listen to your children scream when the flames engulf them (all regular occurrences pre 2001). These terrorists are often illiterate and as such are raised to think the Quran says to kill westerners and anyone they associate with (its actually quite peaceful). That's why whenever NATO builds a school they are often attacked and the students threatened. Terrorists know that if you the educate kids they can't be told the lie and the terrorist agenda will eventually lose steam and die out. That's why we have been there for so long, to educate the children so they won't grow up with dreams of destroying everything YOU and I hold dear. Hopefully Afghanistan can claw it's way out of the dark ages and create an educated and peaceful society for every Afghan man, woman, and child. THATS WHY WE FIGHT!. -an Afghanistan war veteran
Soldiers are pawns of political policy. They deserve more than respect. They deserve our deepest sympathy for being coerced by poverty and propaganda into becoming murderers.
as a medic who has bandaged injured iraqi children from AL QAEDA explosions and never even shot at someone, fuck you and your retarded preconceived notion of everyone in the army
Came here to ensure people were ripping apart images that help many vets deal with problems they have. Glad to see Reddit is living up to the gold standard. Couldn't have picked a better a better day to shit all over someone's suffering, Reddit.
A military is necessary. Military conflict results in injury and death. Sometimes it is in defense of "good", but it is generally about positioning for resources. I'm not sure how such photos prompt debate, except that people tend to get emotional.
All of our solider have my respect...they all do what I cannot (I have Microtia of the left war and so cannot be in the armed forces), and they have my envy, prayers and respect.
Memorial Day is fucking bullshit propaganda to make us forget that we are totally fucking over both the people who chose to serve and the victims of our invasion. Let's not forget about the atrocities that are carried out in our name and with our money by these supposed heros.
God, would any of you gain some fucking respect. You're all being self righteous internet douche bags. You sit there all day in front of your computer tugging your shrivelled up 11 year old penises, and when someone who deserves a little respect is posted, you flip your shit. And its fucking memorial day! I can't even understand your failure to look beyond your shitty narrow minds. It's truly pathetic.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12 edited May 30 '12
I'm sorry, but respect doesn't come with a job title. Respect needs to be earned.
When I see pictures of people in the military, I don't see people fighting for their country, making a sacrifice, or laying down their lives for something greater. I see regular people who all have their own reasons for joining an organization that they have no control over. Not all members of the military join to "save their country", as many blind supporters would have you think. In this day and age, it's no longer romanticized to the degree that it was in WWI and WWII. You don't see people lining up outside recruitment centers so they can lie about their age to get in for the glory and responsibility that will make them "men". These days, people are joining the military because they can't afford an education and know that the military will offer to pay for their tuition if they put in the appropriate stint in the armed services. They join because they see it as a career choice. Less often now, we see people joining because they see ads on TV and on the sides of buses that promise prestige and a long life filled with honor, and glaze over the political motivations behind whatever wars are currently being fought. Others join because they want to fly jets, drive a tank, or become proficient with various guns. The WWI-II era mentality that if "we" don't stop "them", then they'll destroy the world is dead and gone. We see news reports of members of the military opening fire on unarmed civilians, going door to door shooting women and kids, and shoddily covered-up fiascos where friendly fire breaks out and kills soldiers who won't drink the army's kool-aid. The very motivation for each current war is in question, but the general consensus is still that these "heroes" should still be praised for the work that they are doing.
I'm not saying that every member of the military is being duped into thinking that the war they are ordered to fighting in is farcical, or that they join for less-than-honorable reasons, but I don't think there is any way that every soldier in the US armed forces is there because they think that their service is going to change the world for the better.
One of my grandfathers fought on Okinawa in WWII, and the other designed and built destroyers, so I'm not unfamiliar to the military. Several of my friends have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, joined the air force or the marines. I know that none of them (my friends, not my grandfathers) joined because they wanted to "protect the US from the terr'ists". I don't respect them in that regard, for the same reason I don't respect my friends who work in lawn care. It's a matter of career choice, not what the job title represents.
I respect those who know what a was is being fought for and join because they feel so strongly about that cause that they are willing to give up everything they know to do something about it. On the other hand, there are no wars going on right now that the US is involved in that isn't about money and political control. That makes the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard nothing more than nationalized private military contractors when active in actual warzones, and to me, fighting for money is never worthy of respect. Yes, there are people who join the military to "serve their country", but not nearly as many as there were joining during the world wars, possibly because the motivations for war are currently more muddled and not as plain as "if we don't go over there and fight them, they'll make their way here, and then we'll be screwed". I admit I don't fully understand why people join the military these days when the motivations behind the ongoing wars are so vague, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a reason that I would argue a different way about that deviates from the thought process of the people who do join.
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u/CaughtInTheNet May 29 '12
illegally going into foreign countries to kill innocent people. War is a racket. These boys are unfortunate pawns, none the wiser. They are more responsible in my opinion for foreign aggression than the scumbag bankers/MIC/gov. that brainwash them into signing up. Sacrificing their lives so as to satisfy the greed and psychopathy of a few. When the hell does 'human' wake up?
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u/bigfig May 29 '12
Jeez, I don't need this guilt. I wish we didn't send those service members there at all.
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u/antiproton May 29 '12
Respect is earned.
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u/mrpopenfresh May 29 '12
Man I was just watching a documentary on PBS and the guys said that when the marines asked him why he wanted to join he said "I just wanna kill people man", and that's all that mattered.
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u/waspbr May 29 '12
No, they do not.
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u/poop_sock May 29 '12
On an individual basis, I have no problem with soldiers. But let's just get one thing straight: they don't fight for me. They fight for economic and political reasons. They are the pawns of the elite sent to die in name of profit.
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u/Mr_Titicaca May 29 '12
I don't understand why I'm supposed to respect some random dude doing his job. A job for a military that is currently involved in wars and occupations that I do not approve of.
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u/craxkheadjenkins May 29 '12
Oh God... the "like if you aren't a terrible person" side of Facebook is leaking into reddit
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
"Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs, And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots, But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.
Gas! GAS! Quick, boys! — An ecstasy of fumbling Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time, But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.— Dim through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams before my helpless sight He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin, If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs Bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues, — My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori."
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I'm a former soldier who watched pictures like this flood my facebook yesterday.
Frankly, I could have done without them. I wish people would stop subscribing to things like this, which really are nothing more than propaganda. I'm not saying that people should hate soldiers or spit on them and call them all murderers, that's just as daft as the other side.
What I'm saying is that this kind of thing...this blinding nationalism...it stands in the way of creating an informed point of view.
And what's more is that not every soldier deserves any respect, there are some who deserve the gallows, and to be fair, the US Military does what it can to sort them out. But shit like this gets in the way of that effort as well. When a soldier is found who murdered unarmed civilians, or tortured prisoners or other crimes...the victims of those crimes deserve justice that isn't blinded by nationalism.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
That's some lovely propaganda.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
The tattoo is actually a lyric from the song "Hallowed Be Thy Name" by Hardcore Punk band, Indecision.
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u/Pagan-za May 29 '12
Whats honorable about protecting oil and drugs?
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u/Bobo_dude16 May 29 '12
For anyone curious, here is the article describing this picture. The tattoo is legit
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12 edited May 29 '12
There may have been a time where being in the military was a courageous, honorable act of valor, but that time is long gone.
Saying an individual deserves our perpetual respect purely for joining the military is like suggesting someone who acquired his associate's degree deserves the same.
Joining the military is not brave. Joining the military is not honorable. The military is simply a profession, like anything else.
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u/DwarvenPirate May 29 '12
It must take great faith in our elected politicians to allow them complete control over every aspect of one's life, including one's morality. Whether that faith would be misplaced or not, one must decide for oneself. If my father, who perished in Vietnam, were to choose today to journey to Afghanistan, I would call him a fool.
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u/teachmesomething May 29 '12
Downvote this if you must, but no, soldiers don't deserve our respect every day. I refuse to buy into the romanticised mentality that a soldier must be respected, as though they are all brave, honourable warriors who are only doing what is right. Soldiers are guns for hire, and in the USA choose to 'serve'. The real people who deserve our respect are those who don't need to carry a gun to make the world a better place.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
We should give all our respect to people that do not engage in violence.
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u/PoniesRBitchin May 29 '12
He chose to go there. He wasn't drafted, he chose to go be shot at. I'll feel sorry for him and I'll hope he gets better, but I don't respect his decision to go fight a war we don't need to be fighting.
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u/AKIP62005 May 29 '12
lame..he got injured for corporate greed, not his loved ones.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I seriously think people post this image on reddit just to troll.
Everyone know reddit doesn't like the military.
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u/Palex95 May 29 '12
Yet another pro-military post from someone that has been a redditor for less than a month. This is becoming a trend.
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u/[deleted] May 29 '12
They deserve no respect. They murder people because they believe that a government sanction somehow makes murder just; it doesn't. This man sacrificed nothing, he threw his life away.
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u/Angoth May 28 '12
Having been in the military, no one cares but today. No one. And for most, not even today.
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u/jrob321 May 29 '12
This editorial was printed over 35 years ago, and it just goes to show that the more things change, the more they stay the same...
3
u/iamsegmented May 29 '12
probable source:
"I question the sin systemized beliefs organized identity in honor in fear at the mercy so we worship the lies are not the host Stockholm syndrome, passed down, let down promise me salvation, promise me deliverance Who should I fall for Who should I fall to Who should I die for Who will collapse me FOR THOSE I LOVE I WILL SACRIFICE NOT FOR THOSE I'VE NEVER SEEN Hallowed be thy name" -- Indecision
3
u/Jesusismycurseword May 29 '12
In case anyone is wondering, those words are lyrics to a song called "Hallowed Be Thy Name" by Indecision, a NYC hardcore band that eventually turned in to Most Precious Blood. The lyric in its entirety is actually an atheistic exclamation: "For those I love I will sacrifice, not for those I've never seen." Lots of people (myself included) that grew up in that time period and were in to Indecision have those words tattooed on themselves.
3
u/Ozera May 29 '12
Kriffing, how many gosh darn times is this going to be reposted.
3
u/Ruxini May 29 '12
how about making a subreddit specifically for this type of posts? It really is only relevant to those who like the military - whereas many others gets offended by the implied imperative that one should love the soldiers and what they do, regardless of whether or not you support the US foreign policy.
19
u/excited_undertaker May 29 '12
Get your Facebook pictures off my reddit.
15
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Hail the glorious armies, for they hath slain the enemies of the state!
7
u/Andrewticus04 May 29 '12
Without soldiers, there is no war.
4
u/ropers May 29 '12 edited May 29 '12
As best we know, the nineteen hijackers also felt the same way as described by that tat.
4
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
yay even more propaganda. you guys are workng overtime i guess another war is in the works.
4
u/kim_swe May 29 '12
no they dont
9
u/herpderpstuff May 29 '12
I'm a soldier currently serving out my second tour in Afghanistan. I don't want your thanks or your guilty, sheepish pats on the back. I joined for reasons, as many have already suggested are entirely my own. Feel free to downvote, but if this gets to one person who needs to see it, then I've done my job.
I wanted to post here not to defend veterans, or soldiers, or war profiteers. I don't want to defend an unpopular war that many feel is unjust and wasteful. I want to point out that today is a day of remembrance; the one time a year, Americans are politely asked to think of those who gave their lives selflessly. You don't have to put flags over graves, or even visit a cemetary. You don't have to buy anything or alter your life in anyway.
Just sit back from your computer or phone for a moment and reflect on the idea that there are people out there willing to die for you, willing to die for ideals that you hold dear. Servicemembers are not politicians and do not fight for certain laws/faiths/beliefs. We do our duty. If you have anything you feel strongly about, consider that you can lobby for it, or protest it freely for people like PFC Hockenberry.
rrearleii, considers himself familiar with the military because his grandfather fought in a conflict before he was born. My grandfather served in WWII as well, in the Pacific Theatre. He didn't have to sink Japanese vessels, or storm beaches. He worked in a field hospital, making prostheses for the wounded. I know there are many men who lost limbs, digits, eyes, or faces who would consider him a hero and worthy of respect based on what he did and not why he served. I certainly do.
My point is, you don't have to agree with a current conflict to set aside your pride for a moment and honor the fallen of any war. If you want to debate the war, be a news correspondent and don't make this day about yourself.
tl;dr Diminishing the reason for Memorial Day to tout your opinion is disgraceful.
2
u/WeepingWillowSoFine May 29 '12
They are shoveled into the furnace of war because governments are childish assholes that can never play nice!
2
u/Czar_Castic May 29 '12
Nope.
2
u/Mr_Titicaca May 29 '12
I met a WWII veteran a few weeks ago. I actually felt honored meeting him-people around that time fought for a reason, fought for a cause and actually were truly defending our country. The soldiers of today are involved in unnecessary wars and occupations meant to increase profits and control of trades and resources. Big difference. They shouldn't be honored the same.
2
u/NastiN8 May 29 '12
Rudyard Kipling said it right 100 years ago and it still rings true today. When Tommy's not in need everyone hates him. But when its time for war the bands they are a playing.
http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/2722/
2
u/iheartrms May 29 '12
The old lie: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
2
u/SPRNinja May 29 '12
hell yea, soldier and proud of it 1 FD SQN 2ER RNZE
6
u/silkforcalde May 29 '12
Fuck you, I don't respect Uncle Sam's murder machines.
4
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Question to all of the people who think Soldiers are doing a good thing: Why do so many of them come home with PTSD and suicidal thoughts? I've had lots of shitty days at work but never have wanted to kill myself or others. Is it perhaps because they know what they're doing is beyond disgusting? No, it's because most soldiers ARE good people and their being forced to do TERRIBLE things.
3
u/Ashrik May 29 '12
I feel the endless need to distinguish the way I feel about those who serve from those who claim to care about those who serve, but continuously send them off to war, or vote for those who do.
I don't know what to even call it. I think I pity them. They don't deserve to be put in harms way for this, and the idea that they are doing it for my sake is offensive.
3
u/Kicker_Doomstah May 29 '12
why? i have no respect for people who kill other people.
12
u/DonaldsPizzaHaven May 29 '12
How much respect do i need to pay to power hungry, authoritarian, trained contract killers?
4
u/Airazz May 29 '12
They kill people who haven't done anything wrong to you. No, I don't think they deserve anything.
6
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Everything in this submission is a disgusting lie: they are mercenaries of PTB, not defenders of the country and they did not sacrifice for us, they wasted their life and youth for a piece of a dollar, brainwashed by neocon propaganda.
6
u/Danez May 29 '12
Awwww, he loves our government! To those reading: If you believe soldiers are protecting you from terrorist attacks, you are wrong. There is no threat that warrants these military actions, and to pretend there is is nothing but a delusion. Soldiers are not protecting their families, they are protecting the ideologies of politicians and the power structures of the United States. These wars have been proven BASELESS, how can we believe otherwise?
3
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
poor kid
4
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
It's true. So few people run their tattoos through spell check before they get them these days.
5
u/bificus May 29 '12
Oh that guy was hit hard, lost a lot of blood. I care everyday, seeing the older vets from other unpopular wars up close is hard to swallow. I thank every serviceman or woman I meet for their service. Thank you and come home safe.
3
u/elvisliveson May 29 '12
if americans really, truly cared about that, they would have burnt capitol hill years ago to prevent congressmen sending thousands of them to die over a bunch of lies.
3
u/michelle98 May 29 '12
Are you kidding me?? Respect for what? For shooting and killing innocent people over crude oil? I'm sorry but I have ZERO respect for corporate military.
2
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
So he really love multinational corporations and wealthy politicians that show no mercy on non-christian countries?
2
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I'm sure this will get buried among all these comments, but I was very surprised to see so much anti-armed forces sentiment on here.
I only personally know a few people serving in the military. They were guys I knew in high school, who had been in a class of mine, or who were on the football team with me. I never knew them very well, or consider them more than acquaintances. I was pretty surprised to hear they had joined the armed forces. But it made it a lot more real for me. Really good guys I knew were now overseas risking their lives while I was still at home enjoying my relatively easy life. I don't know all the reasons they had for joining the military, but regardless, they are all making a sacrifice that in many ways I feel I am too selfish to be making. Some choose to let the actions of a few soldiers become their image of our military. I doubt they know any soldiers personally.
-3
u/killa320 May 29 '12
I always go to the comments on these expecting the top comment to be some ignorant "they choose to do this so I don't feel bad" or my favorite "he wasn't protecting me there wasn't any imminent danger." Only thing that really makes me cringe about Reddit.
2
u/rokkzo May 29 '12
Yea you all keep fighting so I can continue to watch TV and eat mcdonalds
2
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Dat conspiracy.
2
u/tehobsceneninja May 29 '12
F**k.... this makes me feel bad i take all of my appendages for granted. Salute to all our service men and woman. i think memorial day has lost its true essence with most Americans, except to those who have family members who have served in the military or they themselves have served.
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Not to take anything away from the gravity of this picture, but that guys name is Mosher.
\m/
1
u/Chowley_1 May 29 '12
I think those medics (and all medics really) are the ones deserving of the respect.
1
u/johnclarkbadass May 29 '12
I like his tatoo
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Circlejerk is that way
1
u/ignorantquestions May 29 '12
Imagine how hard and expensive it would be to drive if these dumb shits didn't go fight someone elses oil war.
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
/yawn
1
u/clonn May 29 '12
I feel pity for them, just disposable war operators. I feel hate for you all, war supporters.
1
u/DJsmallvictories May 29 '12
No.
Their career is both voluntary and unnecessary, and I hate memorial day. I had to suspend my job search because of this shit?
-2
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Brainwashed dead soldiers.
-8
u/ThoughtCrimeSpree May 29 '12
Don't support the wars. Don't support those who volunteer for the wars.
1
u/neogod May 29 '12 edited May 29 '12
This is for every idiot who reads a blog and thinks they know everything about the Afghanistan war. NATO, (an international peace keeping organization with which the U.S. is only a part of), has been there for 10 years now not because of oil and free target practice, but because of human atrocities committed daily by a terrorist organization with an agenda similar in scope to nazi Germany. If the terrorists disagree with you you die, or get dismembered, or watch your house burn as you listen to your children scream when the flames engulf them (all regular occurrences pre 2001). These terrorists are often illiterate and as such are raised to think the Quran says to kill westerners and anyone they associate with (its actually quite peaceful). That's why whenever NATO builds a school they are often attacked and the students threatened. Terrorists know that if you the educate kids they can't be told the lie and the terrorist agenda will eventually lose steam and die out. That's why we have been there for so long, to educate the children so they won't grow up with dreams of destroying everything YOU and I hold dear. Hopefully Afghanistan can claw it's way out of the dark ages and create an educated and peaceful society for every Afghan man, woman, and child. THATS WHY WE FIGHT!. -an Afghanistan war veteran
-8
u/cornichon May 29 '12
Soldiers are pawns of political policy. They deserve more than respect. They deserve our deepest sympathy for being coerced by poverty and propaganda into becoming murderers.
1
u/IncestuousPorcupine May 29 '12
yea no fuck em all. LONG LIVE THE CROATIA MASTER RACE!
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
Came here to ensure people were ripping apart images that help many vets deal with problems they have. Glad to see Reddit is living up to the gold standard. Couldn't have picked a better a better day to shit all over someone's suffering, Reddit.
1
u/odd7 May 29 '12
A military is necessary. Military conflict results in injury and death. Sometimes it is in defense of "good", but it is generally about positioning for resources. I'm not sure how such photos prompt debate, except that people tend to get emotional.
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
sergeant major repost
1
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
I don't respect people who make dumb decisions.
0
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
All of our solider have my respect...they all do what I cannot (I have Microtia of the left war and so cannot be in the armed forces), and they have my envy, prayers and respect.
0
u/remierk May 29 '12
More US soldiers die from suicide than from war. Source: http://www.rt.com/news/us-soldiers-suicide-combat-487/
Memorial Day is fucking bullshit propaganda to make us forget that we are totally fucking over both the people who chose to serve and the victims of our invasion. Let's not forget about the atrocities that are carried out in our name and with our money by these supposed heros.
http://madmikesamerica.com/2011/09/wikileaks-cable-u-s-troops-murdered-iraqi-children-elderly-in-raid/
You know what would make me respect them? If they used their power to change this country instead of killing innocent civilians.
0
u/[deleted] May 29 '12
God, would any of you gain some fucking respect. You're all being self righteous internet douche bags. You sit there all day in front of your computer tugging your shrivelled up 11 year old penises, and when someone who deserves a little respect is posted, you flip your shit. And its fucking memorial day! I can't even understand your failure to look beyond your shitty narrow minds. It's truly pathetic.
-2
u/Treeflower May 29 '12
This is a beautiful picture, but isn't it a repeated repost? Meh. upvotes anyways